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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 80. Go back in thread:
Posted by beardedlady on July 23, 2002, at 13:27:26
In reply to like sands though the hour glass, posted by Lini on July 23, 2002, at 12:29:03
Lini:
Plus: I came back for a second to correct some spelling, and I got sucked into it again. That's my psychological reason for coming back.
With regard to the boards being boring, don't you find them nicer and more peaceful with so many of the debaters gone? (Though PBA and PBF are looking a little rough.) But what could be controversial about mangoes?
beardy : )>
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 23, 2002, at 14:03:03
In reply to like sands though the hour glass, posted by Lini on July 23, 2002, at 12:29:03
> 1. Why is the advice to simply ignore posts that you find offensive? I mean, don't you have to read them first, thereby paying attention to them, to know that you're offended?
The advice is to ignore someone's posts if you're not interested in what they have to say or you don't care for how they say it. If someone's using language that could offend others or posting something that's uncivil in some other way, that's different, and I'd like to know about it.
> 2. Why on a religious faith board are people not allowed to say what they actually believe. Wouldn't someone that shared the beleif find that supportive?
Maybe, but others might find it unsupportive.
> What exactly is the purpose of this board?
Support and education. With a focus on religious faith.
> 3. And does Please Be Civil also mean please don't make fun of someone in a subtle way? Or please don't point out the outrageous? Or, please don't EVER get frustrated and express it? Or please don't ask other posters a question more than once?
A lot of it is context. And subjective. Sorry not to be able to spell it out any better in advance...
Bob
Posted by krazy kat on July 23, 2002, at 14:27:56
In reply to like sands though the hour glass, posted by Lini on July 23, 2002, at 12:29:03
Some good questions, Lini, though I imagine you'll get a PBC.
I came back to support Kiddo whose "rhetoric" was called anti-semitic.
I know, I know - I'm still here. Don't plan to be for long though. I sure do still like the med board...
Posted by Lini on July 23, 2002, at 16:27:01
In reply to Re: like sands though the hour glass » Lini, posted by IsoM on July 23, 2002, at 12:48:53
And, dear Lini, I think you very nicely answered #3 way back on February 15 in http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020214/msgs/18307.html
A very enlightening post from you.Are you trying to imply that I didn't go? ;)
That is my point though, offensive or supportive? I naively thought (back in Feb.) that that was all Lou needed to hear . . .
Posted by IsoM on July 23, 2002, at 16:32:35
In reply to Re: like sands though the hour glass, posted by Lini on July 23, 2002, at 16:27:01
...but it wasn't, unfortunately. I think most of us naivelly responded, trying to be helpful but still forthright. And your version of the trip, briefly summed up as you did, somehow sounds so much more fun!
Posted by kiddo on July 24, 2002, at 0:17:49
In reply to Re: like sands though the hour glass, posted by Dr. Bob on July 23, 2002, at 14:03:03
> 2. Why on a religious faith board are people not allowed to say what they actually believe. Wouldn't someone that shared the beleif find that supportive?
>
> Maybe, but others might find it unsupportive.
I don't particularly find a certain poster to be supportive to me, however, they didn't receive a 'pbc' or pbs (please be supportive) message and I did...so again I ask, where is MY support? So to who/whom (?) does the support belong? This is beginning to feel more and more discriminating against me every day.
Kiddo
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 1:36:57
In reply to Re: like sands though the hour glass, posted by kiddo on July 24, 2002, at 0:17:49
> > 2. Why on a religious faith board are people not allowed to say what they actually believe. Wouldn't someone that shared the beleif find that supportive?
> >
> > Maybe, but others might find it unsupportive.
>
> I don't particularly find a certain poster to be supportive to me, however, they didn't receive a 'pbc' or pbs (please be supportive) message and I did...No individual poster is under any obligation to be supportive to any other individual poster. There's a difference between not being supportive and being unsupportive.
> so again I ask, where is MY support? So to who/whom (?) does the support belong?
This isn't the place to look for support for potentially unsupportive beliefs. There are other forums that allow freer discussion of religious and other issues.
> This is beginning to feel more and more discriminating against me every day.
That may be my fault, and if so, I apologize, but there may also be some group process at work. I'll start a new thread with some links...
Bob
Posted by kiddo on July 24, 2002, at 9:47:14
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day, posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 1:36:57
> > > Maybe, but others might find it unsupportive.
I find another persons belief unsupportive, but that hasn't deterred them any....
> No individual poster is under any obligation to be supportive to any other individual poster. There's a difference between not being supportive and being unsupportive.
Define the difference for me please so that I may be able to understand this better and we may further discuss it.>
> > so again I ask, where is MY support? So to who/whom (?) does the support belong?
>
> This isn't the place to look for support for potentially unsupportive beliefs. There are other forums that allow freer discussion of religious and other issues.
I think I'm beginning to understand now. Only certain people and their *beliefs* are supported by you, and anyone/anything else is *unsupportive here. However,
I can't believe what I'm reading. You want me to go somewhere else? You want ME to leave, but not someone else?????????? Why I'm surprised, I have no idea.....fine.I bet someone else is mighty happy right now..
> That may be my fault, and if so, I apologize, but there may also be some group process at work. I'll start a new thread with some links...
>
> Bob
Thank you for admitting that.....so it's the whole group? Not sure what you mean...I hope their short ones, I have so much to do right now I'll never catch up....
Kiddo
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 15:04:28
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day » Dr. Bob, posted by kiddo on July 24, 2002, at 9:47:14
> > > > Maybe, but others might find it unsupportive.
>
> I find another persons belief unsupportive, but that hasn't deterred them any....What belief is that?
> > No individual poster is under any obligation to be supportive to any other individual poster. There's a difference between not being supportive and being unsupportive.
>
> Define the difference for me please so that I may be able to understand this better and we may further discuss it.Putting someone down is being unsupportive. Not responding at all is not being supportive, but not being unsupportive, either.
> > This isn't the place to look for support for potentially unsupportive beliefs. There are other forums that allow freer discussion of religious and other issues.
>
> I think I'm beginning to understand now. Only certain people and their *beliefs* are supported by you, and anyone/anything else is *unsupportive here.If you want to put it that way, yes, I only support the posting of certain types of beliefs.
> I can't believe what I'm reading. You want me to go somewhere else? You want ME to leave, but not someone else??????????
Did I say I wanted you to leave? I'd just like you to refrain from posting certain types of beliefs. But I understand that your beliefs are important to you, and it would be natural to want to have them supported. *If* it's important for you to be free to put down others and to have that supported, then for *that purpose* other forums are more appropriate.
Bob
Posted by Phil on July 24, 2002, at 16:00:49
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day, posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 15:04:28
You support some but not others. I'd like to know what other types of beliefs you don't support so I may politely mention to a poster who is new to the board that they cannot post about headhunting
or whatever.
I know you don't support one way to paradise; anything else?Thanks,
Phil
Posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 16:43:03
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day, posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 15:04:28
Bob
Kiddo can certainly speak for herself, but what has me stymied, and maybe her too, is the perception that Lou is being allowed to strongly espouse his religious beliefs and she is not. You've drawn a distinction between her assertion of the "only road" and Lou's failure to make a similar assertion, but this seems like a distinction without a difference.
Lou takes just about any posting opportunity he can to retell his experience in the context of whatever is being discussed. He may never say "and you should do this too or this is the only route to happiness or to personal salvation" but the message is so pervasive and repetitive and I really do think it's retold again and again precisely to convey the message that his is the only road to personal salvation without using those words.
It also seems that some people feel that Lou is not being very supportive of them because they find the retelling of his experience to be so unresponsive to whatever posts preceded it. The retelling of his experience, with considerable embellishment of the factual context, can appear to be much more for his gratification than our support. This is a very difficult message to get across to him because you've so sharply circumscribed what can be said. If we can't say "please don't tell me again about the city of peace," how can we communicate that we find the persistent retelling of his story to be nonresponsive and unsupportive, and in that respect, rather annoying? I think that there have been enough swirling controversies over people trying to say just that to Lou, for him to fully understand that this particular kind of contribution is not valued. Yet his posts never really change. Why isn't that the same kind of baiting that you've cautioned other people for?
I agree that this Board is not a great place to espouse any sort of belief as the be all and end all for everyone whether it be a particular medication (or no medication) or a particular therapy (or no therapy) or a particular religious belief. I hope that people can find a way on the faith board to moderate their statements so they can share their beliefs with others without it seeming that pressure is being applied or that someone of a different belief is being put down. I can't see how this is going to happen if all the rules are being drawn really just to address the issue of how to deal with one poster who's done very little to accommodate the wishes and sensibilities of anyone other than you.
I appreciate how difficult it is for you. You like to respond to specific posts. Lou may play within the technical parameters of your rules with each individual post but very much breach them in spirit through a whole range of posts and threads. I think that's why some people appreciated Iso's summary and why it might be tough for you to see the larger picture, and appreciate why there have been complaints that you are not moderating the Board in an even handed and nondiscriminating fashion.
Mair
Posted by SandraDee on July 24, 2002, at 17:27:35
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day » Dr. Bob, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 16:43:03
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2002, at 17:37:04
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day » Dr. Bob, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 16:43:03
mair,
I believe that there could be a fundamental difference between what I am posting and the posts of Kiddo.
One difference, is the "only road", or the "wrong road" thought. Dr. Bob has rulled that type of thought out on this board. Not because he is saying that it is right or wrong, but because his rules do not allow it. He does say that there are other forums that accomodate that type of thought.
Another aspect is that I am reiterating an experiance that I had. There are also others telling of their experiance here. One told of seeing their jesus in the sky in Arizona. Another of a vision of a man on a throne and a gold star on the wall. These are experiances. They are not telling others here that what they experianced *must* be experiabced by evryone else, and niether am I. I am telling what happened to me. One poster wrote that there could be someone, someday, on this board telling that they experianced being abducted by martians and that experiance could be told here without objection.
Now people here tell of their experiance with Paxile and Ambien and it is accepted here without objection. Some comment on ther experiances with the drugs a pos. or neg.
There are posers here that comment that they have had a neg. or pos. experiance with religion.
Lou
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2002, at 17:49:42
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day » Dr. Bob, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 16:43:03
mair,
I am not telling what happened to me for my gratification. In fact, I have been ostracised by many for telling my experiance, not on this board, but in my life. I know that the telling of my experince has the possibility to cause othes to be hostile towards me. In fact, my own family and friends and people have abandoned me. They say that I "need help". In a sense, when someone talks about being accelerated in time and seeing the earth vanish, or telling of going back in time and having a discussion with the Confederate General, Robert E. Lee, or to tell that I was a witness to someone being raised from the dead and made alive again, that will cause some skeptisism, to say the least. But when I was in the City of Peace, I was told , "All things are possible with God."
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2002, at 17:55:40
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day » Dr. Bob, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 16:43:03
mair,
You have said that I am telling my experiance , again and again to convey the message that "his is the only road to personal salvation."
Mair, I am not telling my expriance to convey that the Road is the only road to personal salvation.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2002, at 17:59:37
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day » Dr. Bob, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 16:43:03
mair,
You have written that my contribution is not valued.
I believe that all posts here are valued.
Lou
Posted by kiddo on July 24, 2002, at 18:00:09
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day » Dr. Bob, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 16:43:03
> Bob
>
> Kiddo can certainly speak for herself, but what has me stymied, and maybe her too, is the perception that Lou is being allowed to strongly espouse his religious beliefs and she is not. You've drawn a distinction between her assertion of the "only road" and Lou's failure to make a similar assertion, but this seems like a distinction without a difference.Thank you mair, you spoke what I've been trying to say and so eloquently too. I still don't see the difference, however, it's unfortunate that the 'admin' doesn't see my side of it.
>
> Lou takes just about any posting opportunity he can to retell his experience in the context of whatever is being discussed. He may never say "and you should do this too or this is the only route to happiness or to personal salvation" but the message is so pervasive and repetitive and I really do think it's retold again and again precisely to convey the message that his is the only road to personal salvation without using those words.
>You're right, and perhaps that's where I've gone wrong. Instead of saying what the Bible says, I should have told of my experiences and perhaps that would have been more accepting. I won't speak of 'roads' anymore on this forum because it's become apparent to me that there are certain prejudices against me and my belief that won't be modified by anything I say or do. That isn't a sarcastic reply, just my own feelings/thoughts and (at this point anyway), haven't been censored as well...
> It also seems that some people feel that Lou is not being very supportive of them because they find the retelling of his experience to be so unresponsive to whatever posts preceded it. The retelling of his experience, with considerable embellishment of the factual context, can appear to be much more for his gratification than our support. This is a very difficult message to get across to him because you've so sharply circumscribed what can be said. If we can't say "please don't tell me again about the city of peace," how can we communicate that we find the persistent retelling of his story to be nonresponsive and unsupportive, and in that respect, rather annoying? I think that there have been enough swirling controversies over people trying to say just that to Lou, for him to fully understand that this particular kind of contribution is not valued. Yet his posts never really change. Why isn't that the same kind of baiting that you've cautioned other people for?
>I agree again. However, if the tables were turned, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'd be receiving a PBS or PBC regarding the matter. I can probably answer that last question for you....it's because it's worded as his experience...and there is no 'right road' wrong road' comment to use against him. It's like I was censored for one thing, now I feel like I'm being censored for everything....again, that's just my take on things....
> I agree that this Board is not a great place to espouse any sort of belief as the be all and end all for everyone whether it be a particular medication (or no medication) or a particular therapy (or no therapy) or a particular religious belief. I hope that people can find a way on the faith board to moderate their statements so they can share their beliefs with others without it seeming that pressure is being applied or that someone of a different belief is being put down. I can't see how this is going to happen if all the rules are being drawn really just to address the issue of how to deal with one poster who's done very little to accommodate the wishes and sensibilities of anyone other than you.
>My answser is just not posting there anymore because it's obvious my opinions/thoughts aren't welcome there.
> I appreciate how difficult it is for you. You like to respond to specific posts. Lou may play within the technical parameters of your rules with each individual post but very much breach them in spirit through a whole range of posts and threads. I think that's why some people appreciated Iso's summary and why it might be tough for you to see the larger picture, and appreciate why there have been complaints that you are not moderating the Board in an even handed and nondiscriminating fashion.
>
> MairI think I'd better stop where I have...
Thanks again for your wonderful insight.
Kiddo
Posted by kiddo on July 24, 2002, at 20:09:52
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day, posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 15:04:28
> > > > > Maybe, but others might find it unsupportive.
> >
> > I find another persons belief unsupportive, but that hasn't deterred them any....
>
> What belief is that?
>
> > > No individual poster is under any obligation to be supportive to any other individual poster. There's a difference between not being supportive and being unsupportive.
> >
> > Define the difference for me please so that I may be able to understand this better and we may further discuss it.
>
> Putting someone down is being unsupportive. Not responding at all is not being supportive, but not being unsupportive, either.
How did I possibly put someone down by saying that my belief was one specific way? I consider putting someone down to be calling them names, degrading them, etc...>
> > > This isn't the place to look for support for potentially unsupportive beliefs. There are other forums that allow freer discussion of religious and other issues.
> >
> > I think I'm beginning to understand now. Only certain people and their *beliefs* are supported by you, and anyone/anything else is *unsupportive here.
>
> If you want to put it that way, yes, I only support the posting of certain types of beliefs.
>Crystal clear. So far that's the only one you've accepted.
> > I can't believe what I'm reading. You want me to go somewhere else? You want ME to leave, but not someone else??????????
>
> Did I say I wanted you to leave? I'd just like you to refrain from posting certain types of beliefs. But I understand that your beliefs are important to you, and it would be natural to want to have them supported. *If* it's important for you to be free to put down others and to have that supported, then for *that purpose* other forums are more appropriate.
>
> BobThat's how I took it, yes....yes, my beliefs are important to me. I can't believe this...you don't understand at all. It isn't important for me to "put others down", but it is important for me to be able to express myself as equally as anyone else.
Kiddo
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2002, at 21:32:12
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day » Dr. Bob, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 16:43:03
mair,
You said that you can't say to me to please stop telling you again about the city of peace. And that you would like a way to tell me that it is nonresponsive, unsuppotive,and rather annoying.
Mair, I have just had a poster respond to me. He wanted to know if the pearl-white Mustang was the horse and the driver the Rider.
I also have had numerous questions , which are responses, that we are going over now.
Well, anythng can be annoying, but that doesn't mean that only posts that others find non-annoying can be posted.
You also say that my posts are non-supportive.
But you see, mair, I am only planting a seed. And there are those, perhaps, that the seed will grow in and they will be supported. Maybe not today, and maybe not tomorrow, but soon. And, perhaps, there are those that will not water the seed and let it stay by the wayside and ignore it. And there maybe those that remember the seed and go back to find it later and have it grow even though they first thought that the seed was a delusion. But I have seen the great trees that have grown from the seed. I have seen the transformed lives of those that had gone astray and were brought back into the sheepfold.
I know that there are a lot of people that do not believe in the seed here. But it is the people here that are shakeled in their addictions and slaves to their depression that have a right to , at least, hear about the seed so that they can make their decision themselves to either walk away or allow the seed to grow. Let those that have an ear to hear, hear. Let those that want to come out of the darkness an into the marvelous light ,see. Let those that are thirsty drink from rivers of living water. Let those that are down hear the Rider that said," Humble yourself to the Lord and he will lift you up."
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 21:37:22
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day » Dr. Bob, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 16:43:03
> I hope that people can find a way on the faith board to moderate their statements so they can share their beliefs with others without it seeming that pressure is being applied or that someone of a different belief is being put down. I can't see how this is going to happen if all the rules are being drawn really just to address the issue of how to deal with one poster who's done very little to accommodate the wishes and sensibilities of anyone other than you.
What makes you think these rules are just to address the issue of Lou?
Bob
Posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 22:05:36
In reply to Lou's response to mair's post-part 5, posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2002, at 21:32:12
"But you see, mair, I am only planting a seed. And there are those, perhaps, that the seed will grow in and they will be supported. Maybe not today, and maybe not tomorrow, but soon. And, perhaps, there are those that will not water the seed and let it stay by the wayside and ignore it. And there maybe those that remember the seed and go back to find it later and have it grow even though they first thought that the seed was a delusion. But I have seen the great trees that have grown from the seed. I have seen the transformed lives of those that had gone astray and were brought back into the sheepfold.
> I know that there are a lot of people that do not believe in the seed here. But it is the people here that are shakeled in their addictions and slaves to their depression that have a right to , at least, hear about the seed so that they can make their decision themselves to either walk away or allow the seed to grow. Let those that have an ear to hear, hear. Let those that want to come out of the darkness an into the marvelous light ,see. Let those that are thirsty drink from rivers of living water. Let those that are down hear the Rider that said," Humble yourself to the Lord and he will lift you up." "
Please explain to me why this is not an example of proselytizing, and if you agree that it is, why it's ok? Don't you think this supports the arguement that the retelling of Lou's experience is a form of proselytizing?Mair
Posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 22:13:02
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day, posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2002, at 21:37:22
" What makes you think these rules are just to address the issue of Lou?"
You make think all of the discussions since the origination of the faith board have broader applications and perhaps they do, but in my view they arose because of the unique problems which Lou poses for many posters. The guidelines might have had to have been thrashed out eventually, but it would have been in a different, and probably (albeit speculatively) less hostile climate.Mair
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2002, at 22:13:52
In reply to Proselytizing Dr. Bob??, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 22:05:36
mair,
I do not believe that Dr.Bob's definition of proselytising is in breach here. The now definiion is not to try to get someone to join a particular religion, like the Jahovah's Witnesses, or let's say, the Methodists.
I was telling you that I would like for people to hear what I am saying, so that they can make their own choice as to whether to allow what I am saying to be fruitfull.
Now if Dr. Bob wants to expand his definitin ofproselytising to include what you are calling to his attention, then I will abide by that.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2002, at 22:18:06
In reply to Re: more and more discriminating every day » Dr. Bob, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 22:13:02
mair,
Could you tell the unique problems that I pose to many posters?
I believe that this discussion could become fruitfull with your declaration of those problems , for then ,I feel, we can conclude this matter by all expressing our opionions concering what you see as "unique problems."
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by beardedlady on July 25, 2002, at 7:40:52
In reply to Proselytizing Dr. Bob??, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 22:05:36
I started a whole thread about this just before I "quit" the site. http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020627/msgs/6087.html I thought my arguments were good. I hope Dr. Bob thinks yours are better. Because the fact is that what Lou is doing is proselytizing, whether he invites you to drive on his one road or not.
In order to see it as anything other than proselytizing, one must believe that he, Lou, has experienced the things he says. Dr. Bob's belief that he has seems to be our obstacle.
beardy
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