![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 129. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 17, 2001, at 2:49:06
In reply to Re: Advertisement » Dr. Bob, posted by allisonm on February 15, 2001, at 18:19:18
> I'm not wild about ads. Besides, most of them blink or change or move and they drive me to distraction (pun intended). Is there a way to have ads that aren't like that?
Ideally, it would be an acknowledgement of support rather than an ad. And if it has to be an ad, it will be as tasteful as possible.
> How much does it cost to have this site hosted?
For 650 MB, it's $275/month.
> I think the grantwriting is interesting, but I recall we've talked about this before too. You don't have time, right? So you'd need someone who with experience who could do it.
Right...
Bob
Posted by Rzip on February 17, 2001, at 9:14:31
In reply to Re: Advertisement, posted by Dr. Bob on February 17, 2001, at 2:49:06
> Ideally, it would be an acknowledgement of support rather than an ad. And if it has to be an ad, it will be as tasteful as possible.
> For 650 MB, it's $275/month.Wow! That is a significant amount of money, in sum per year. And I assume you are paying out of pocket?
Why couldn't you use the University server anymore?
- Rzip
Posted by allisonm on February 17, 2001, at 10:15:42
In reply to Re: Advertisement, posted by Dr. Bob on February 17, 2001, at 2:49:06
> > Ideally, it would be an acknowledgement of support rather than an ad. And if it has to be an ad, it will be as tasteful as possible.
>
> > How much does it cost to have this site hosted?
>
> For 650 MB, it's $275/month.
>
Wow. Well then, maybe advertisements will have to be the way to go if people don't make donations and no one steps forward to try to get a grant...I think charging should be the last option. And I wonder if you did start charging, whether you could block folks as easily. I suppose everyone joining would have to agree to certain terms upon paying that if they were uncivil, they'd forfeit the fee and that would be it. Ick. I don't like the idea. Too much potential hassle.
Posted by Noa on February 17, 2001, at 14:21:23
In reply to Re: Advertisement, posted by Dr. Bob on February 17, 2001, at 2:49:06
I could see sponsorship, ala NPR, but not ads. This is one of the few places where we are not bombarded by overstimulating ads.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2001, at 0:31:43
In reply to Cost to have this site hosted. » Dr. Bob, posted by Rzip on February 17, 2001, at 9:14:31
> Why couldn't you use the University server anymore?
It died. And no adequate replacement server was available. And it would be easier to have ads and to charge a fee here -- if in fact I do try anything like that.
> I think charging should be the last option. And I wonder if you did start charging, whether you could block folks as easily.In fact, I've been thinking for a long time that a fee would make it *easier* to block people -- because it's harder to get a new credit card number than to get a new email address.
Bob
Posted by shellie on February 18, 2001, at 0:45:43
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted., posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2001, at 0:31:43
> > Why couldn't you use the University server anymore?
>
> It died. And no adequate replacement server was available. And it would be easier to have ads and to charge a fee here -- if in fact I do try anything like that.
>
>
I think charging should be the last option. And I wonder if you did start charging, whether you could block folks as easily.
>
> In fact, I've been thinking for a long time that a fee would make it *easier* to block people -- because it's harder to get a new credit card number than to get a new email address.
>
> BobI think charging a fee would be a bad idea. First of all I think it would stop a lot of new posters from starting to participate. In the beginning I would not have known if it was worth it to pay when I had no idea what I would get from the board.
If you want money from us you could have a fund drive like WETA or PBS twice a year with pledges (rather than a fee). I don't know if I'd pay a set fee to listen to NPR (since it's available for free on the internet), but I have no problem pledging a generous amount each spring.
Second, if you continue to write articles on us, then I will wonder if it's fair to charge us AND use us as subjects.
Is the university now not paying for the site at all? I think if you really need money for the site then perhaps discrete advertising or pledge drives is the way to go. Shellie
Posted by Lorraine on February 18, 2001, at 11:24:03
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted. » Dr. Bob, posted by shellie on February 18, 2001, at 0:45:43
I would favor the sponsor spot myself or fund raising, but fund raising seems like such a hassel. What about receiving funding through a grant, like NPR? I don't know how feasible the latter is. Don't professors apply for grants frequently? Who has expertise is this area? I'd be willing to help (I've never done it before though).
I think charging may not be commercially feasible. How many recurrent users do you have? How many of them would you lose by charging? How many posters do you need for critical mass? Some posters, like Cam and Anthony (sorry I don't know the group well enough to highlight all) seem to be more "giving" than "receiving" so charging them wouldn't make sense. To me, it just seems problematic.
Posted by shellie on February 18, 2001, at 14:03:08
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted., posted by Lorraine on February 18, 2001, at 11:24:03
> I would favor the sponsor spot myself or fund raising, but fund raising seems like such a hassel. What about receiving funding through a grant, like NPR?
I don't think that NPR gives out grants; I think it receives grants. For fund-raising. Just put a red sign that says...remember to donate to psychobabble this week. For a $50 pledge, you are essentially paying only 14 cents a day. (Is that right?) That's how NPR puts it and it seems to work for them.
Also, Lorraine is right. There are thousands of grants out there, just waiting to give money away. But for that it takes research and the time to write an application. shellie
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2001, at 23:46:38
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted. » Dr. Bob, posted by shellie on February 18, 2001, at 0:45:43
> I think charging a fee would be a bad idea. First of all I think it would stop a lot of new posters from starting to participate. In the beginning I would not have known if it was worth it to pay when I had no idea what I would get from the board.
What if your first few posts were free, so you could try it out?
> If you want money from us you could have a fund drive like WETA or PBS twice a year with pledges (rather than a fee).
Hmm, there's an idea. Although there probably aren't as many regulars here as at a radio or TV station...
> Second, if you continue to write articles on us, then I will wonder if it's fair to charge us AND use us as subjects.
I think the general idea would (continue to) be that no one has to participate...
> Is the university now not paying for the site at all?
Nope.
> How many recurrent users do you have?From that article: Between January and August 2000, there were 21,230 (an average of 94 per day) posts by 1,516 members. Forty-eight per-cent of posters posted just once... One percent of posters posted 35% of all posts.
> How many of them would you lose by charging? How many posters do you need for critical mass?
Those are the big questions. Maybe there's only one way to find out?
> Some posters, like Cam and Anthony (sorry I don't know the group well enough to highlight all) seem to be more "giving" than "receiving" so charging them wouldn't make sense.
I know, that's something I've been thinking about...
Bob
Posted by Lorraine on February 19, 2001, at 11:48:02
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted., posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2001, at 23:46:38
> > I think charging a fee would be a bad idea. First of all I think it would stop a lot of new posters from starting to participate. In the beginning I would not have known if it was worth it to pay when I had no idea what I would get from the board.
>
> What if your first few posts were free, so you could try it out?Bob: The people who would pay a fee are your regulars. I don't know how large that number is. (Is is 50% of 1516= all posters less the one time posters?) I doubt it's that high. When I look at your site it seems to have two purposes. One is a general public service where people can dip in for a quick shot of info. The other is for a community of people who post for the support, friendship and ability to help others. If you charge, the "public service" part of the site will take the hit and this will change the nature of the site. You should think about that because the public service part of the site is actually a bright shining thing in a dull world.
Let's consider the idea for funding one by one with the pros and cons. I'm going to start with the most feasible--which I think is sponsorship.
Sponsorship:
Pro: Provides the funding. Doesn't affect nature of the site. Probably is easy to obtain?
Con: Some members won't like.Applying for Grant money:
Pro: Probably can obtain. Doesn't affect nature of the site.
Con: Probably a pain to get in terms of man hours of labor in applying.Fund Drive:
Pro: May work. Won't affect site.
Con: Probably a pain to orchestrate and do. May not work (the problem of freeloaders.)Charging:
Pro: Is equitable--everybody pays their way. May raise funds.
Con: May result in the critical mass necessary to support the site leaving and end of site. Will harm public service part of site.To me, sponsorship seems like the surest least objectionable approach. Are there downsides to that that I am unaware of?
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 19, 2001, at 18:52:32
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted., posted by Lorraine on February 19, 2001, at 11:48:02
> To me, sponsorship seems like the surest least objectionable approach.
I agree!
> Are there downsides to that that I am unaware of?
Just that I don't think it's actually that easy to obtain. If you have any contacts, please let me know...
Bob
Posted by Lorraine on February 20, 2001, at 10:22:32
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted., posted by Dr. Bob on February 19, 2001, at 18:52:32
> Just that I don't think it's actually that easy to obtain. If you have any contacts, please let me know...
>
> BobI will research this if you like. I don't have industry experience or contacts (although I was offered a job running an ezine right before the market crashed), but I do have an MBA and know how to do the research. Call me off if you don't want me to do this. Otherwise, I'll report back after I've scouted the trail ahead.
Posted by Lorraine on February 21, 2001, at 14:18:53
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted., posted by Lorraine on February 20, 2001, at 10:22:32
Here's what I found out in my digging around. There are a two (actually, I think three,but I'll get to that later) ways to do advertising and there are affiliated programs. The first is to do a traditional advertising campaign, which typically requires that you have 500,000 impressions per month. The process of selling, running and billing for ads, however, can be cumbersome for small sites (that's us). In addition, you need ad tracking software, which can be simple or complex.
The way small sites do their ads is by using an ad network that aggregates the ad space on individual sites and sells it to advertisers. They provide the ad tracking software and do the billing and so forth and send you a check less 40-50% or so commission that they snag. When you go this route, you have no control over how your page looks or where they place the ads, the nature of the ads (although they usually limit them to non-porno etc), the effectiveness of the ad campaign, or the number of ads placed. So your site can look pretty cluttered with ads. Not an elegant look to be sure. Plus, the big ad repackagers want larger sites and the smaller ad repackagers may have "liquidity issues". They are all slow payers--60-90 days isn't uncommon and have fairly complicated formulas (based on click throughs,thousands of page views, number of unique viewers etc) to determine what you get.
The advertising campaign stuff sounds like to much for this group to handle and the network approach involves you giving up a fair amount of control of the look and feel of your site. Let me know if you want me to look into either of these further.
Affiliated programs were initiated by Amazon and there are several more out there now. They pay some sum of money for click through. I believe you already have Amazon and I think you posted here somewhere what you net from it--which I believe was a pretty small amount. Does it make sense to beef up the book referral section and display a link to it prominently on the site to beef up revenues here? Also does it make sense to pursue other affiliates?
The other way to go about advertising might be to selectively target a few advertisers whose content match your goals with this site and pursue them individually. That might make sense. Let me know if this interests you and I will check out some depression sites and see who they are using as sponsers (if anyone.)
Another approach would be to look for a web hoster who will give you free hosting or a discount based on being a charitable organization. Again, let me know if you want me to explore further.
Regardless of which direction you want to pursue, you may want to place a banner on the page soliciting contributions from members now on a voluntary basis to help fund the site. This would be a good "stop gap" approach if it doesn't pan out for full site support. You would need to consider how you will collect the money--eg secured server for credit cards and the administrative details of that.
Let me know what you think of all this.
> > Just that I don't think it's actually that easy to obtain. If you have any contacts, please let me know...
> >
> > Bob
>
> I will research this if you like. I don't have industry experience or contacts (although I was offered a job running an ezine right before the market crashed), but I do have an MBA and know how to do the research. Call me off if you don't want me to do this. Otherwise, I'll report back after I've scouted the trail ahead.
Posted by ShelliR on February 21, 2001, at 17:09:36
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted., posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2001, at 23:46:38
> What if your first few posts were free, so you could try it out?
Probably not. I'd probably be a stalker for quite a while. I have never been asked to pay for participating on a board, so I think I would have felt strange about it. I listened to NRP for a long time and then it hit me that I should be contributing, and now I contribute a generous amount each year. But if they had made me pay in the first six months, I don't think I would have joined.
>
> > If you want money from us you could have a fund drive like WETA or PBS twice a year with pledges (rather than a fee).
>
> Hmm, there's an idea. Although there probably aren't as many regulars here as at a radio or TV station...
>Yes, but psychobabble doesn't have the budget of a radio or tv station. I think having only several target dates a year would remind people to contribute. And of course, not everybody would contribute, that's a given. I think if you just had a banner all the time to contribute, people would think "I already did," even though it was over a year ago.
Who are the big non-profit depression groups besides NIMH? NIMH gives away a lot of money but I'm not sure if they respond to outside ideas.
And I guess I'm surprised with a large university and a large budget, they won't lend any support to PB even if it's not on their server. Have they been approached with a proposal?
Shelli
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 22, 2001, at 2:31:49
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted., posted by Lorraine on February 21, 2001, at 14:18:53
> Here's what I found out in my digging around.
Thanks, I really appreciate your taking the time to look into this. Ditto for the babbler who's researching grant possibilities (but who hasn't posted that they're doing that, so I won't say who they are here). Time is what I have the least of!
> The first is to do a traditional advertising campaign, which typically requires that you have 500,000 impressions per month. The process of selling, running and billing for ads, however, can be cumbersome for small sites (that's us). In addition, you need ad tracking software, which can be simple or complex.
> The other way to go about advertising might be to selectively target a few advertisers whose content match your goals with this site and pursue them individually.
A "traditional" campaign wouldn't selectively target advertisers? In fact, Psycho-Babble hit 855,628 last month:
http://www.dr-bob.org/stats.html
So maybe we wouldn't count as small anymore... What could we get for that many impressions per month? If ad tracking software can be simple, that's good...
> Affiliated programs were initiated by Amazon and there are several more out there now. They pay some sum of money for click through. I believe you already have Amazon... Does it make sense to beef up the book referral section and display a link to it prominently on the site to beef up revenues here? Also does it make sense to pursue other affiliates?
>
> Regardless of which direction you want to pursue, you may want to place a banner on the page soliciting contributions from members now on a voluntary basis to help fund the site. This would be a good "stop gap" approach if it doesn't pan out for full site support. You would need to consider how you will collect the money--eg secured server for credit cards and the administrative details of that.I've felt uncomfortable about soliciting, which is why the Books (Amazon) and Support (donations) links aren't more prominent. Maybe it's something I just need to get over?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 22, 2001, at 2:43:29
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted. » Dr. Bob, posted by ShelliR on February 21, 2001, at 17:09:36
> > What if your first few posts were free, so you could try it out?
>
> Probably not. I'd probably be a stalker for quite a while.You mean a "lurker", right? :-)
> And I guess I'm surprised with a large university and a large budget, they won't lend any support to PB even if it's not on their server. Have they been approached with a proposal?
The larger your family, the more mouths you have to feed...
I have in fact received some internal funding, but it's for my Grand Rounds on the Internet project, and I don't think I can justify charging a server to that account. Plus the real issue isn't the machine, but the support of the machine.
Bob
Posted by ksvt on February 23, 2001, at 12:16:40
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted. » Dr. Bob, posted by ShelliR on February 21, 2001, at 17:09:36
>
> Perhaps you've already given us this information and I missed it, but how much do you really need to raise so that the site can continue to operate effectively and so you do not have to expend any of your own monies? This might help us analyze the best way to raise the funds. K
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 23, 2001, at 23:53:59
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted., posted by ksvt on February 23, 2001, at 12:16:40
> > Perhaps you've already given us this information and I missed it, but how much do you really need to raise so that the site can continue to operate effectively and so you do not have to expend any of your own monies? This might help us analyze the best way to raise the funds.
It's now $300/month to have this site (800 MB) hosted. Something that's starting to become an issue is, more popular = bigger = more expensive...
Bob
Posted by ksvt on February 24, 2001, at 20:52:15
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted., posted by Dr. Bob on February 23, 2001, at 23:53:59
> > >Is it possible to make a donation to the University of Chicago with the donation to be earmarked for the support of the PB site? A donation as opposed to a user fee would be tax deductible. K
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2001, at 12:24:32
In reply to Re: Cost to have this site hosted. » Dr. Bob, posted by ksvt on February 24, 2001, at 20:52:15
>Is it possible to make a donation to the University of Chicago with the donation to be earmarked for the support of the PB site? A donation as opposed to a user fee would be tax deductible.
It sure is!
http://www.dr-bob.org/support.html
Bob
PS: I guess those "Support" links are in fact too little...
Posted by JahL on February 25, 2001, at 15:27:31
In reply to Re: donations, posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2001, at 12:24:32
> PS: I guess those "Support" links are in fact too little...They are. I'd never noticed them.
Jah.
Posted by Lorraine on February 27, 2001, at 16:09:41
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Dr. Bob on February 22, 2001, at 2:31:49
> A "traditional" campaign wouldn't selectively target advertisers? In fact, Psycho-Babble hit 855,628 last month:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/stats.html
>
> So maybe we wouldn't count as small anymore... What could we get for that many impressions per month? If ad tracking software can be simple, that's good...OK. Let me look into this.
>
> I've felt uncomfortable about soliciting, which is why the Books (Amazon) and Support (donations) links aren't more prominent. Maybe it's something I just need to get over?Yes, I think "get over" would be good :-) Is the Amazon and other affiliates a viable alternative--could it be grown in terms of revenues to make it worth while? Also the Support thing, I would definately do. Maybe I can provide you some examples of both done "with restraint".
Also--did you look into web hosting reduced or free due to your "charitable" service? Is this worth pursuing? (Of the $300, what % of web hosting charges?)
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 27, 2001, at 17:45:24
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Lorraine on February 27, 2001, at 16:09:41
> > So maybe we wouldn't count as small anymore... What could we get for that many impressions per month? If ad tracking software can be simple, that's good...
>
> OK. Let me look into this.Fantastic, that would be such a help!
> > I've felt uncomfortable about soliciting... Maybe it's something I just need to get over?
>
> Yes, I think "get over" would be good :-)OK, I'll try... :-)
> Is the Amazon and other affiliates a viable alternative--could it be grown in terms of revenues to make it worth while? Also the Support thing, I would definately do. Maybe I can provide you some examples of both done "with restraint".
I'd appreciate some restrained examples, thanks. The Amazon thing I did because it was such a neat idea, but I'm not sure it would make sense to try to be more of a store...
> Also--did you look into web hosting reduced or free due to your "charitable" service? Is this worth pursuing? (Of the $300, what % of web hosting charges?)
I asked the last time I upgraded, and they ignored the question. :-) 100% of the $300 is for web hosting, we just keep growing and growing...
Bob
Posted by Lorraine on March 17, 2001, at 16:03:09
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Dr. Bob on February 27, 2001, at 17:45:24
OK. I need to just start pulling out pieces of information and get started here...
Advertising. Although this sounds easy, I think it's not. For one thing, the bottom has fallen out of the market and a lot of dot.com, including those involved with advertising, have gone belly up. Ad rates that applied a year ago have dropped substantially and are still on the down slide. A lot of the companies that could service you are slow pay or no pay, with the lights barely on. On top of that a lot of the ad vendors exclude "chat rooms, message boards" etc. For example, item 13 on Ad-Ups application states: "13. Will the ads appear only on subject-focused, content pages of your website (ie, you understand that ads are NOT allowed on chat, email, forum, BBS, or message board pages)?" (http://www.ad-up.com/new/adup_ws_mail.html)
If you want a flavor of what's going on generally, look at Adbility, which reviews ad reps and so forth. http://www.adbility.com/show.asp?cat_id=168
Their reviews are riddled with words like "light are (barely) on" or "the CEO has left the building". Most of the companies noted on their list do not provide "requirement" information unless you fill out a form specifying the particulars. I suspect the "no message boards" rule may be wide spread, but there is no way to know without asking each company.I found a good article on Affilate Marketing for Non-Profits. http://www.clickz.com/article/cz.3061.html
This might be a viable approach. You could use igive and some of the other affilation programs. This does not seem out of line with what you are trying to do here in terms of tone. You could also sign up as a charity on some of the charitable giving organization like GuideStar. Are you incorporated as a nonprofit? Do you file tax returns on Psycho-Babble?An example of a nonprofit that has all of the donation angles wired is Make a Wish foundation. Check out their approach: http://www.wish.org/home/frame_give.htm
I am finding a lot of info on nonprofit fund raising on line and so forth. I guess I am leaning toward going the nonprofit route, but this could entail incorporating as a nonprofit and filing tax returns. I don't know how you feel about this. I could help (I'm a lawyer, but I've never filed for nonprofit incorporation...still I could figure it out. There would be cost involved though probably--incorporation fees charged by the state, filing fees by the agencies located near Sacramento.) We could also try to find a company that would host your site for free. (I think this might be promising). Either way we go, there is lots of work to be done. That is why I want to get a feel for your views before I go further. We are at the fork. Nonprofit or commercial approach? Let me know.
> > > I've felt uncomfortable about soliciting... Maybe it's something I just need to get over?
> >
> > Yes, I think "get over" would be good :-)
>
> OK, I'll try... :-)
>
> > Is the Amazon and other affiliates a viable alternative--could it be grown in terms of revenues to make it worth while? Also the Support thing, I would definately do. Maybe I can provide you some examples of both done "with restraint".
>
> I'd appreciate some restrained examples, thanks. The Amazon thing I did because it was such a neat idea, but I'm not sure it would make sense to try to be more of a store...
>
> > Also--did you look into web hosting reduced or free due to your "charitable" service? Is this worth pursuing? (Of the $300, what % of web hosting charges?)
>
> I asked the last time I upgraded, and they ignored the question. :-) 100% of the $300 is for web hosting, we just keep growing and growing...
>
> Bob
Posted by Lorraine on March 17, 2001, at 21:10:01
In reply to Re: advertising, posted by Lorraine on March 17, 2001, at 16:03:09
Bob:
I think you should try to solve this problem the simplest way possible. I don't think that charitable corporation grant/funding or mall listing approaches are easy because you would need to incorporate as a non-profit, file with the IRS for 503b status, and file tax returns as well as annual filings to update all of this. Lots of administrative hassel and some costs (probably around $1,000 to $2,000) to get it all going. Why bother?
All of your costs come from web hosting charges. Let's cut those. Go to budgetweb.com and input your needs. It will search it's database for virtual web hosting sites that meet your needs. When I did an open ended search I found 4 web hosters that provided unlimited space with monthly charges ranging between approximately $15-30. The set up charges ranges from $10 to $60. Other sites provide space between 1000 MG and 99999 MG for comparable rates. Lots more would need to be known. For instance, is there an access or hit charge. This can be specified as no in your selection process for the search. The site provides tons of info on the web hosters in the footnotes. The quality of the service is not provided and we would need to research this separately. Please let me know if this is a viable option. It clearly is the cleanest approach to reducing the over-head for the site. It should be augment with other approaches which I will set forth in another message. (I've lost 3 postings so I'm doing this dribble by drabble, if you don't mind)
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