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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on August 27, 2016, at 0:22:17
i had many vaccinations, but ... not trying to be paranoid but i really get the creeps that the vaccination i had maybe caused part of these mental issues, when i was a kid i was very hyper and bubbly, smiled and full of energy, and it's like.....what happened to that personality....it really gets to be, ill see pictures of myself smiling and having a wonderful time......
i don't know if there was a vaccination i had that caused my mind to change and get errors but.....i am who i am now, but it's like i don't feel the same persoality i was many years ago.....it's strange, some people stay the same person for their whole life.....i change, but i'm just confused my personality i was when i was kid didnt come about into adulthood
does anyone know anything on vaccinations causing mental problems or autism?
Posted by baseball55 on August 27, 2016, at 18:52:09
In reply to vaccinations and autism, posted by rjlockhart37 on August 27, 2016, at 0:22:17
>
> does anyone know anything on vaccinations causing mental problems or autism?
>
> The claim that vaccinations cause autism has been thoroughly debunked. And, in any case, how would childhood vaccinations cause your personality to change in adulthood. Many people undergo significant changes in personality in late adolescence/early adulthood. Many mental illnesses begin in the late teens/early twenties.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on August 27, 2016, at 23:02:52
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on August 27, 2016, at 18:52:09
it's been a debate, with the pharma companies that made vacinations for the measles, there's alot of them.....and i just heard from friends, and some family that it's been studied that it caused some abnormalities in the brain, some linking to autism.....some how i'm paranoid but there's nothing i can do about it....so....
but it's been on the news and talked about....ill have to do my research project on this on google....
Posted by rjlockhart37 on August 27, 2016, at 23:19:49
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on August 27, 2016, at 18:52:09
when i was 13 is when i started to change, getting depressed and sad, when i was a kid i was hyper and was happy but did have mood issues, i would get depressed but not as bad later on
when the main problems started was when i was 14....depression, not fitting in.....then later substance abuse with my secret weapon amphtamine, and after that happened it was a wave of new problems, anxiety, more depression
it took me till not too long ago....to see where the problems where caused.....reading my posts from 2005, i was looking for alteration in the brain to relieve depression and that turned into substance abuse
but .... still i'm still wondering if somehow any of that vaccinations could of caused some of the stuff to come forward.....
Posted by Hello321 on August 28, 2016, at 17:21:57
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on August 27, 2016, at 18:52:09
Stop being a goddamn sheep and maybe try educating your ignorance away.
Posted by baseball55 on August 28, 2016, at 19:37:25
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » baseball55, posted by Hello321 on August 28, 2016, at 17:21:57
> Stop being a goddamn sheep and maybe try educating your ignorance away.
Huh?
Posted by linkadge on August 29, 2016, at 14:55:26
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on August 28, 2016, at 19:37:25
Coming from a 'science' background, I admit that the human data does not support a link between vaccinations and autism.
However, there is research in mice suggesting that vaccinations can cause significant increases in inflammatory compounds (such as IL-6). The adjuvant in the vaccine is designed to activate your immune system so that the vaccine will 'take'.
Scientists are beginning to appreciate a connection between the immune system and psychiatric disorders. For example depression is routinely associated with elevated IL-6 levels. Many of the genes showing links to schizophrenia and autism are immune related (rather than neurotransmitter related).
I react very negatively to annual vaccinations. I experience acute euphoria followed by insomnia and then destabilization. This could correspond to a rise in IL-6 levels (which can persist for weeks - at least in rodent studies).
I would imagine that activation of the immune system, paired with some other predisposing genetic factor, could unmask or worsen autism and / or other psychiatric disorders.
I would imagine that some individuals have a much stronger immune response to the vaccine, and that this could be genetic. High levels of inflammation in the developing CNS could cause neurotoxicity.
So, I do believe that there could be a yet uncovered link - at least that a mechanism exists in theory.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on August 29, 2016, at 18:30:57
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » baseball55, posted by Hello321 on August 28, 2016, at 17:21:57
> Stop being a goddamn sheep and maybe try educating your ignorance away.
That's not very supportive.
- Scott
Posted by rjlockhart37 on August 30, 2016, at 15:26:50
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on August 29, 2016, at 14:55:26
elevated IL-6 levels may have something to do with it.....i have no idea, i'll have to research it more on google.....
but they wouldnt go public about it without some kind of reason to make it public, yet there's nothing really i, or anyone else can do about it....the best a lawsuit case....but ughhh that would be such a slow, legal prcess.....
if it did effect me, the only thing i can do it is keep growing.....because if it did cause abnormalities then....it's irreversible
thanks link responding :)
Posted by Baseball55 on August 30, 2016, at 19:56:14
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on August 29, 2016, at 14:55:26
Whatever biochemical changes that may be found in mice after vaccinations. The fact remains that on a gross correlation level, there is absolutely no correlation between childhood vaccinations and subsequent development of autism. None. The only peer-reviewed article published that posited such a correlation was not only not replicated, but was found to be based on no real data at all and was repudiated by the publisher subsequently. Is it being a sheep to point this out? Or is it being a sheep to hold on to discredited positions rather than deal with the vast uncertainty surrounding autism and other mental disabilities?
Coming from a 'science' background, I admit that the human data does not support a link between vaccinations and autism.
>
> However, there is research in mice suggesting that vaccinations can cause significant increases in inflammatory compounds (such as IL-6). The adjuvant in the vaccine is designed to activate your immune system so that the vaccine will 'take'.
>
> Scientists are beginning to appreciate a connection between the immune system and psychiatric disorders. For example depression is routinely associated with elevated IL-6 levels. Many of the genes showing links to schizophrenia and autism are immune related (rather than neurotransmitter related).
>
> I react very negatively to annual vaccinations. I experience acute euphoria followed by insomnia and then destabilization. This could correspond to a rise in IL-6 levels (which can persist for weeks - at least in rodent studies).
>
> I would imagine that activation of the immune system, paired with some other predisposing genetic factor, could unmask or worsen autism and / or other psychiatric disorders.
>
> I would imagine that some individuals have a much stronger immune response to the vaccine, and that this could be genetic. High levels of inflammation in the developing CNS could cause neurotoxicity.
>
> So, I do believe that there could be a yet uncovered link - at least that a mechanism exists in theory.
>
> Linkadge
>
Posted by SLS on August 30, 2016, at 20:37:44
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by Baseball55 on August 30, 2016, at 19:56:14
Autism might be the result of reduced immune cell activity. Immune cells (I don't remember which ones) are responsible for neural pruning. It is thought that the brain of someone with autism has not been pruned properly, and has too many synapses. Do vaccinations affect the immune system in such a way as to affect neural pruning? Although the empirical data seems definitive that they do not, it is not totally unreasonable that one should look at the immune system as participating in the genesis of autism. That being said, it seems that autism is genetic and is already determined at birth.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 8:33:26
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by Baseball55 on August 30, 2016, at 19:56:14
Hey Baseball,
This issue is obviously very polarizing. However, I personally *never* believe in any scientific study (or meta-analysis for that matter) dogmatically. Also, scientific research is an ongoing study of reality - we don't perform one or two studies and then close the case.
For example, in the 90's SSRIs were not linked to birth defects. Many doctors considered them safe during pregnancy.
Folic acid was considered harmless (now linked to increased colon cancer risk)
How many of us believed (for over a decade) that (hydrogenated) margarine was safer for us that butter, only to find out that it is (in fact) worse?
The arthritis medication Vioxx was FDA approved for years and only later (upon withdrawl from the market) has been linked to some 20,000 - 60000 heart attacks.
Sugar is harmless
Scientific research is never free from bias, and it always has the potential to not capture the entire truth and / or misrepresent reality.
Like I said in my original post, the data (currently) does not support a link between vaccinations and autism. However, I personally don't think that is necessarily the end of the story.
Because the ratio of unvaccinated to vaccinated is relatively small *and* the rate of autism is fairly low, it is possible that studies have simply not captured a link. There could also be subgroups of cases which are caused by vaccines which are currently too small to detect.
Another thing to consider (which the meta-analysis has not factored in) is that it may not be that vaccines don't cause autism, it could be that the unvaccinated have additional risk factors which predispose them to autism (and hence mask the effect).
For instance, what kind of parent does not vaccinate their child? Think about the personality of such a parent (i.e. suspiciousness, neuroticism, antisocial tendencies) and whether those traits might be in some way linked to offspring with genetically higher rates of autism - hence masking the effect of vaccines on autism.
More time will tell.
The only reason I lean this way is because of my (personal) reaction to seasonal vaccines which no doctor believes.
My doctors don't believe that the annual vaccine could possible worsen my depression (and cause destabilization).
If my doctors don't believe me, why should I believe them?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 8:49:04
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by SLS on August 30, 2016, at 20:37:44
Hi SLS,The apparent increase in rate of autism over the past 30 years argues against the notion that autism is purely genetic. Like mood disorders there are likely epigenetic risk factors that can be activated by environmental triggers.
In the past 5 years there have been a number of studies suggesting that certain environmental factors could increase the risk of autism. I frequent the site (sciencedaily.com) and read all of the latest research articles. Some studies have found links with...
- living in a city
- use of antidepressants
- use of antiepileptic drugs
- too much folic acid / b12
- parents in certain professions (i.e. engineers)
- industrial chemicals and pesticidesIt could also be that combinations of environmental factors are additive as well.
One genetic pathway implicated in autism is WNT which affects cell growth, surivival, pruning etc. Interestingly this molecule is increased by antidepressants and some antiepileptic drugs.
Linkadge
Posted by baseball55 on August 31, 2016, at 18:42:37
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » SLS, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 8:49:04
Every month (at least) there is a new correlation posited for autism. Why vaccinations and not one of the dozen or so other correlations found (like father's age, one I remember reading about)? There's no money for big pharma in suppressing data here, since there are no pharmaceutical treatments for autism.
It is widely believed that autism diagnoses have increased not because of an increase in the incidence of autism, but because of increased diagnoses. My cousin is autistic, with completely typical presentation of low functioning autism - think rain man without the ability to count cards at casinos. As a child, he was simply "mentally retarded." I spent time in a state hospital as a child and a number of the children had, in retrospect, severe, low-functioning autism, but were diagnosed as retarded or schizoid. High-functioning autistic children were diagnosed as having behavioral problems (oppositional disorder) or schizoid personality disorder. Autism wasn't really understood as a unique disorder until fairly recently.
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:34:57
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on August 31, 2016, at 18:42:37
>It is widely believed that autism diagnoses have >increased not because of an increase in the >incidence of autism, but because of increased
>diagnoses.No. This is not 'widely believed'. This is one suggestion (or theory that some groups ascribe to) for why rates of autism have dramatically increased. There is a similar suggestion for why rates of many psychiatric diagnosis have increased (i.e. that we are simply 'better diagnosing' the problem). However, this is not necessarily the 'widely held' viewpoint. It is more palatable to believe that we are simply better able to detect the problem, rather than suggesting that mankind has anything to do with it.
Working in the public education system, many of the my senior educators admit to seeing an increasing rates of behavioral / autistic / sensory issues than had previously existed.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:46:02
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:34:57
It's the same with peanut allergies. The rate of serious peanut allergies **has** significantly increased in the past two decades. The dramatic rise in childhood allergies is **not** the simply a case of 'rising awareness' or 'better diagnosis'. When I was in school, we could bring peanut butter sandwiches to lunch without sending half the class to the hospital.
Its the same with childhood diabetes. The rate of childhood diabetes **has** significantly increased in the past few decades. It is **not** the case that we are simply better diagnosing the problem.
It is the same with childhood obesity. The rate of childhood obesity has significantly increased in the past few decades. It is **not** the case that we are simply better able to detect the problem (our scales worked just as well 30 years ago as they do now).
Like the above mentioned problems, I doubt that the increase in rates of autism is simply due to better 'diagnostic abilities'.
Linkadge
Posted by rjlockhart37 on August 31, 2016, at 21:54:13
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:46:02
what i think would be a good plan, if they have not already done it yet, is to psychially record and gather confirmed autism cases linked with the certain vaccine that is suspected for creating it, there's tons of vacinnes, and reserch which are the ones that have been rumored ....
indepth research with confirmed cases results from vaccine. The numbers of confirmed, and not paranoia or propaganda about it, would do a good case
i still don't know the exact vaccines they have claimed to have caused autism
Posted by AlexCanada on September 1, 2016, at 8:26:47
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » baseball55, posted by Hello321 on August 28, 2016, at 17:21:57
> Stop being a goddamn sheep and maybe try educating your ignorance away.
And how is he being a sheep when he rejects what the crooked big pharma industry has been spoon feeding him his whole life?
Fully vaccinated used to mean just a few vaccinations in the 1980's. Now you need a dozen or so to be ''fully vaccinationed".
People are sicker than ever despite all these extra vaccines all the while drug companies are making record profits.
The only ''debunking'' which occurs is from those who work for the pharma industry and are paid to write those propaganda articles pushing parents to poison their kids.
The rise in illness is directly linked to rise in vaccinations.
Posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 18:57:11
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:34:57
But over the last several decades, kids with behavioral issues have been "mainstreamed" in the public school system. Years ago, children with mental disabilities weren't in the school system. They were warehoused in state institutions for the insane or "mentally retarded." There were no laws requiring school districts to provide public education for the disabled.
When I was kid, dyslexic kids were just stupid. ADHD kids were discipline problems. Aspergers kids were just weirdos.
I was at a dinner party not too long ago and a woman said that the diagnosis of ADHD was just pathologizing natural rambunctiousness to sell drugs. After all, she asked, what did they do to such kids before there was ritalin and adderall? I replied, before that, they used corporal punishment.
Maybe you are not old enough to remember this, but I remember it very well. My first grade teacher made stupid kids wear "dunce caps." Kids who were disobedient were hit with rulers and worse. I recall being hit in second grade for eating a jelly bean that was meant for recess.
Mental illness in kids wasn't on anyone's radar. There were good kids, bad kids, obedient kids, disobedient kids, smart kids, stupid kids and mental retards. And that was about it.> Working in the public education system, many of the my senior educators admit to seeing an increasing rates of behavioral / autistic / sensory issues than had previously existed.
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> Linkadge
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Posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 19:20:19
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2016, at 21:46:02
But allergic reactions, obesity and diabetes are objective, measurable conditions. Mental health diagnoses are diagnosed based solely on symptoms, the definition and understanding of which have changed greatly over the years.
I would imagine that childhood schizophrenia diagnoses have declined over the last several decades since, years ago, all intractable mental health problems in kids were labeled schizophrenia. I myself spent two years in a state hospital on thorazine and was diagnosed as schizophrenic, though in fact I was just depressed and lost due to a childhood of physical abuse.Of course, when I was a kid, physical abuse wasn't abuse - it was discipline. Sexual abuse didn't exist because nobody talked about it. Rates of child abuse have increased dramatically over the last several decades, not because more children are abused, but because social mores have changed dramatically. Once I saw the boy next door lying in his yard while his father kicked him over and over. Nobody called the police or child protective services. The father was just disciplining a bad kid. It was a parent's prerogative.
Also, a question. Have diagnoses of childhood type 1 diabetes increased, or of type 2 (which would be related to higher obesity rates)?
As far as allergies go, allergy and asthma rates are way up over the years and one theory is that children have less exposure to potential allergens as a result of better hygiene. A recent study found, for example, that allergies and asthma rare in Amish children, who are exposed to lots of dirt, dust, fecal matter, etc. on farms.
> It's the same with peanut allergies. The rate of serious peanut allergies **has** significantly increased in the past two decades. The dramatic rise in childhood allergies is **not** the simply a case of 'rising awareness' or 'better diagnosis'. When I was in school, we could bring peanut butter sandwiches to lunch without sending half the class to the hospital.
>
> Its the same with childhood diabetes. The rate of childhood diabetes **has** significantly increased in the past few decades. It is **not** the case that we are simply better diagnosing the problem.
>
> It is the same with childhood obesity. The rate of childhood obesity has significantly increased in the past few decades. It is **not** the case that we are simply better able to detect the problem (our scales worked just as well 30 years ago as they do now).
>
> Like the above mentioned problems, I doubt that the increase in rates of autism is simply due to better 'diagnostic abilities'.
>
>
> Linkadge
Posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 19:21:42
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by rjlockhart37 on August 31, 2016, at 21:54:13
Of course it's been done. And no correlations has been found
> what i think would be a good plan, if they have not already done it yet, is to psychially record and gather confirmed autism cases linked with the certain vaccine that is suspected for creating it, there's tons of vacinnes, and reserch which are the ones that have been rumored ....
>
> indepth research with confirmed cases results from vaccine. The numbers of confirmed, and not paranoia or propaganda about it, would do a good case
>
> i still don't know the exact vaccines they have claimed to have caused autism
>
>
Posted by linkadge on September 1, 2016, at 19:29:12
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism, posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 18:57:11
Baseball, you need to do your research on the history of the education system in North America.
Children with disabilities were not 'warehoused' in the 90's.
I'm just talking about the changes that have occurred in the last 25 years.
You can say it's 'all the same' as its ever been, but that's ignoring the realities.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 1, 2016, at 19:45:42
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » baseball55, posted by linkadge on September 1, 2016, at 19:29:12
When I was in school in the 80's and 90's, there were no 'dunce caps', no physical punishment, no teachers calling you names. There were no warehouses for kids with disabilities either. The school consisted of a few kids on Ritalin and small special education department. I know this because I talk to dozens of veteran teachers at the dozens of schools that I work at (I am a substitute teacher). Perhaps one or two kids (in the entire school) had autism.
Also, performance on key standardized tests (math / science) was significantly higher than today (despite your argument of a significant lack of 'proper diagnosis').
In the 80's and 90's we could eat peanut butter galore (every 2nd child brought a peanut butter sandwich to school for lunch).
Now, I walk into classrooms where multiple students *in each class* have autism, ADHD and are on multiple medications (despite a significant lack of clinical trial data for many of these meds in children).
Children are more likely to be overweight, have diabetes, high blood pressure, ADHD, depression, anxiety disorder, autism, peanut allergies (you name it).
Our food is less nutritious, children are exposed to significantly more industrial chemicals in the womb and in the environment after birth. They are getting less exercise, less social contact, less sunlight.
Why is it so unconceivable to you that our children's declining health is MAN MADE?
Do you deny global warming as well?
Linkadge
Posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 19:46:05
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » Hello321, posted by AlexCanada on September 1, 2016, at 8:26:47
> > Stop being a goddamn sheep and maybe try educating your ignorance away.
>
> And how is he being a sheep when he rejects what the crooked big pharma industry has been spoon feeding him his whole life?Well I resent this deeply. Big pharma has nothing to gain by "hiding" the "facts" about vaccination and autism. Vaccinations just aren't that profitable. Most are generic.
>
> Fully vaccinated used to mean just a few vaccinations in the 1980's. Now you need a dozen or so to be ''fully vaccination".
Things haven't changed much since the 80s. My grandkids get pretty much the same vaccinations my kids got in the 80s. Very few new vaccines have cropped up since then. Since the 1960s though...> People are sicker than ever despite all these extra vaccines all the while drug companies are making record profits.
>
Really? When I was a kid, the only vaccination we got was for polio, which has been pretty much wiped out in developed countries due to vaccines. And I should mention that nobody makes money on polio vaccines, since Salk refused to patent the vaccine, which he saw as a public good. When I was a child, everyone got measles, mumps, chicken pox, whooping cough, scarlet fever. Many children died from these. My father's heart was damaged from scarlet fever and he died in his fifties as a result. How many kids are born with birth defects today as a result of exposure to rubella? When was the last time you heard of a child dying from measles or mumps?
The meningitis vaccine, given to adolescents, has pretty much ended epidemics of meningitis in college dormitories that routinely killed about a quarter to a half of all those infected. Hepatitis A and B have been pretty much wiped out due to vaccinations. Meningitis and hepatitis vaccines, by the way, are not part of the regular vaccination schedule for children, but pediatricians encourage teenagers to get them.So where's your evidence for "people are sicker than ever.."? When I was young, kids were sick all the time with measles, mumps, chicken pox, the flu. My children and nieces and nephews and their friends were rarely sick as kids.
And vaccines are not the source of big profits for big pharma. Vaccines are a low margin product. There are plenty of problems with big pharma, but vaccines are pushed by public health officials, not drug companies.
So who's the sheep? I'm not the one bleating about unsubstantiated conspiracies by drug companies.
Posted by baseball55 on September 1, 2016, at 19:58:03
In reply to Re: vaccinations and autism » Hello321, posted by AlexCanada on September 1, 2016, at 8:26:47
I will add one more thought. It's a little rich that the same people who object to Lou's posts and expend time and energy online looking for and talking about drugs to treat psychiatric conditions are so quick to pull facts out of thin air to "prove" that vaccines - probably the pharmaceutical industries one unmitigated success story - are a big conspiracy to make children ill.
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