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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 27 to 51 of 52. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on June 24, 2013, at 0:16:53
In reply to Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only, posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 23:35:46
> Hello all,
>
> With the go-ahead from my daughter's pdoc, I'm contemplating a slow taper off Seroquel, and not adding Remeron or anything else; Just keeping her on 100mg Zoloft.
>
> She's convinced that these other meds are hurting her, but believes in the Zoloft. (I'm thinking reverse placebo effect here)This is sometimes called the "nocebo" effect. It is true, though, that someone may feel more depressed on certain drugs. Also, someone who is hyperthymic will hate being slowed down by drugs, even if they are producing the desired effect of stabilizing mood.
> Does anyone have ANY thoughts on this after reading my exhaustive account of her depression?
>
> Thanks to all of you! I really appreciate it.
> LauraIf I were diagnosed as having MDD, I would also want to take Zoloft by itself. If Zoloft monotherapy works, that's great. To try it at this juncture is a reasonable decision. However, if Taylor is bipolar, it is possible that something that acts as a mood stabilizer or anti-manic will be necessary to treat any mood swings, racing thoughts, or agitation that might emerge. Suicidality also occurs in a manic state, especially in mixed-states. The presence of a bipolar mixed-state might explain things.
- Scott
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 7:43:00
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » LAURAH952, posted by SLS on June 24, 2013, at 0:16:53
Hi Scott,
Taylor's pdoc and her therapist haven't given me a definite answer as to whether or not she has bipolar disorder. Having her try Zoloft alone, may show that she either needs a mood stabilizer, or doesn't. That is my hope.
Being on 300mg Seroquel in the hospital, walking into walls, and feeling "zeroed-out" all the time might make anyone dislike the drug. I've also never seen mood swings in her until the meds were introduced. I've also never seen her in a "happy" manic state.
If I watch her closely, ask her how her mood swings are, and work with her therapist & pdoc, (seen weekly) I should know if mood stabilizers are called for or not.
Taylor really only wants the zoloft, and if I show her that I'm willing to let her try it and see how she feels, she may be more willing to try a mood stabilizer if it isn't working for her. (at this point, I'd taper off the 50mg seroquel she's taking)
Thank you!
Laura
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 24, 2013, at 11:26:30
In reply to correction- Lou's response, zoloft,remeron,suicide, posted by Lou Pilder on June 23, 2013, at 14:59:03
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > This is my first post, so I hope I'm in the right area of the forum. My daughter (13) HAS MDD, and is complaining of mood swings. She was hospitalized as she was consumed with thoughts of suicide 70% of the time. She was given ZOLOFT 100mg, and SEROQUEL (has been on up to 300 mg - but is now down to 50mg) The drop in SEROQUEL made her mood swings severe, and she was cutting more than ever. At higher levels of Seroquel, she'd walk into walls, and not fully wake-up until afternoon. She seems stabilized at 50mg, but is still having some mood swings, not sleeping well, and the suicidal thoughts remain at 10%. (which is remarkable, as she's only been on meds for about 3 mos.)
> > > > >
> > > > > Her pdoc just switched her from SEROQUEL to REMERON (along with the 100mg zoloft) I'm a little nervous about this combo from what I've read.
> > > > >
> > > > > If anyone can shed any light on this combination, and what it might do for her??... i.e. is remeron better than seroquel for MDD with mood swings, insomnia, etc.. She says she doesn't have anxiety, but the pdoc maintains that her depression has been the worst she's seen in her medical career.
> > > > >
> > > > > After that information, the doc really didn't answer my questions, but told me to use what I wanted - the seroquel or the remeron. (if remeron wasn't tolerated, switch back to seroquel) I'm really confused; ANY help is appreciated!!
> > > > >
> > > > > (note that I don't know the dosage of the Remeron yet as my husband took my daughter to the pdoc and I haven't picked it up yet)
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks!
> > > >
> > > > laurah,
> > > > You wrote,[...could anyone shed any light...ANY help is appreciated...].
> > > > If you continue with what you are doing to your child, she could be dead today or tomorrow or maybe some day after that. You see, the chemicals that you are drugging your daughter with, in collaboration with a psychiatrist, have the potential to cause death via what is known as serotonin syndrome, as one way those drugs could kill her. But it is much more than that. I am prevented from posting here what IMHHHO could save your daughter's life, prevent life-ruining conditions or addiction due to prohibitions posted to me here by Mr Hsiung. So I am prevented from shedding the light that IMHHHO could heal your daughter. You could go to the administrative board here and review post by me and see years of outstanding requests/notifications from me to Mr Hsiung and his deputy now and his past deputies. I think that by you doing that, you could have your psychiatrist email me and I could advise him/her and then he/she could relay that to you.
> > > > As to the suicide thoughts that you posted here about your daughter, be advised that the drugs that she is given can INCREASE suicidal thinking. And also, when taking these drugs together, the adverse effects are increased exponentially.
> > > > So can she have a way out? I know of a way out, but if you stop the drugs she could go into a mind-altered state to be compelled to kill herself or others, even commit mass-murder.
> > > > Lou
> > > >
> > >
> > > Laurah,
> > > If you could show the following statistics to you psychiatrist, he/she could then answer your questions and if the psychiatrist will not give you a straight answer, what could that tell you?
> > > You see, giving these drugs to a 13 year old is (redacted by respondent) and I would really like for this doctor that is giving you daughter these drugs to post here so that I can post my response to him/her.
> > > Lou
> > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/zoloft/death
> > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/remeron/death
> >
> > laurah,
> > Your mention of suicide thoughts here by your daughter is something that I need to warn you about. You see, taking these drugs together increases suicidal thinking.
> > Lou
> > http://www.ehealthme.com/zoloft-and-remeron/suicide+attempt
>
> correction:
> http://www.ehealthme.com/zoloft-and-remeron/suicide-attemptFriends,
If you are a parent and following this discussion, be advised that last year it is generally accepted that 42,000 deaths were attributed to psychiatric drugs. I think that number is under the real number of deaths. A lot of the deaths are of children. There are many reasons for that.
What could be unbeknownst to you is the history of psychiatric drugging that I am prevented from posting here due to the prohibitions posted to me by Mf. Hsiung. I think that if you were allowed to know these facts, that lives could be saved, life-ruining conditions and addictions could be avoided. There are many other facts that I am prohibited to post here also. What this means to you is that you could be led to a false conclusion because facts are not allowed to be posted here by me that if they were known by you, you could IMHHHHO make a more-informed decision as to drug your child or not in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor /prescriber.
Here is an article that I would like discussants here to read and there is a video also.
Lou
To see this article:
A. Pull up google
B. Type in, [New documentary: Psychiatric Drugs can kill you child]
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 14:01:47
In reply to Lou's response, Psychiatric Drugs can, posted by Lou Pilder on June 24, 2013, at 11:26:30
> Laurah,
> > > If you could show the following statistics to you psychiatrist, he/she could then answer your questions and if the psychiatrist will not give you a straight answer, what could that tell you?
> > > You see, giving these drugs to a 13 year old is (redacted by respondent) and I would really like for this doctor that is giving you daughter these drugs to post here so that I can post my response to him/her.
> > > Lou
> > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/zoloft/death
> > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/remeron/death
> >This doesn't even look like a study to me. How many participants were included in this research shown in the graph from 1997 to 2012? The highest "trend of death in Zoloft" in the entire 15 years as depicted by the graph is 217 people. Now, in 2013, (which is only half over) that number jumps to 1,125 people?? That's absurd!
I was told that antidepressants have the ability to increase suicidal thoughts when initially on the medication. I also saw studies myself that no deaths due to suicide happened. I'm sure there are many many studies out there with conflicting outcomes. It was fully explained, and my daughter was in a hospital being monitored.
Here are my facts from the only study I care about right now.
Before meds: My daughter was consumed with suicidal thoughts 70% of her day. She was cutting herself. She stayed in bed and got up only to drag herself to school, spending most of her time there crying. She was receiving CBT weekly for several months before any medication was considered.
After meds: She has suicidal thoughts less than 10% of her day. She is outgoing, spending her time with friends and engaging in activities she enjoys again. Right now she isn't cutting herself. She's made remarkable improvement. (The exceptions being that when tapering off Seroquel too quickly, she started cutting again, had mood swings, and wasn't sleeping as well once again.) She's now experiencing these symptoms at a much lower level, but still needs improvement.
We watch her carefully, and are aware of side effects. I believe that in her case they do outweigh the risks. If we didn't get her on medication, I don't believe she'd be alive right now.
Do I want her on meds long term? Of course not... Do I want her alive? Heck yeah!
- Laura
Posted by Lou PIlder on June 24, 2013, at 14:25:06
In reply to Re: Lou's response, Psychiatric Drugs can » Lou Pilder, posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 14:01:47
> > Laurah,
> > > > If you could show the following statistics to you psychiatrist, he/she could then answer your questions and if the psychiatrist will not give you a straight answer, what could that tell you?
> > > > You see, giving these drugs to a 13 year old is (redacted by respondent) and I would really like for this doctor that is giving you daughter these drugs to post here so that I can post my response to him/her.
> > > > Lou
> > > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/zoloft/death
> > > > http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/remeron/death
> > >
>
> This doesn't even look like a study to me. How many participants were included in this research shown in the graph from 1997 to 2012? The highest "trend of death in Zoloft" in the entire 15 years as depicted by the graph is 217 people. Now, in 2013, (which is only half over) that number jumps to 1,125 people?? That's absurd!
>
> I was told that antidepressants have the ability to increase suicidal thoughts when initially on the medication. I also saw studies myself that no deaths due to suicide happened. I'm sure there are many many studies out there with conflicting outcomes. It was fully explained, and my daughter was in a hospital being monitored.
>
> Here are my facts from the only study I care about right now.
>
> Before meds: My daughter was consumed with suicidal thoughts 70% of her day. She was cutting herself. She stayed in bed and got up only to drag herself to school, spending most of her time there crying. She was receiving CBT weekly for several months before any medication was considered.
>
> After meds: She has suicidal thoughts less than 10% of her day. She is outgoing, spending her time with friends and engaging in activities she enjoys again. Right now she isn't cutting herself. She's made remarkable improvement. (The exceptions being that when tapering off Seroquel too quickly, she started cutting again, had mood swings, and wasn't sleeping as well once again.) She's now experiencing these symptoms at a much lower level, but still needs improvement.
>
> We watch her carefully, and are aware of side effects. I believe that in her case they do outweigh the risks. If we didn't get her on medication, I don't believe she'd be alive right now.
>
> Do I want her on meds long term? Of course not... Do I want her alive? Heck yeah!
>
> - LauraL,
> You wrote, [...no deaths to suicide..]
Lou
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/zoloft/completed+suicide
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 15:29:46
In reply to Lou's reply-completed suicide-zoloft » LAURAH952, posted by Lou PIlder on June 24, 2013, at 14:25:06
Lou,
Where's the study? The graph means nothing, (as stated in my last post) therefore there is only that 1 statement concerning deaths among people who took or were taking Zoloft. Where did this info come from? Depressed people commit suicide. This so called info by no means infers that deaths were caused solely by taking Zoloft. The information also states that these people were taking many other meds, and their diagnoses are not given. This holds no merit.
I do believe it can happen, hence the warning on the med. In many cases the benefit outweighs the risk - did you not read how my daughter greatly improved after she started taking Zoloft? She was already extremely depressed and highly suicidal. I believe strongly that depression causes suicide.
Ironically, the website you keep referring to is funded by the large pharmaceutical companies, where if you look for any information, is pushing major brand name psychiatric medications.
If you have real case studies that prove what you are trying to say, go ahead and send the link.
Laura
Posted by Lou PIlder on June 24, 2013, at 17:16:19
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-completed suicide-zoloft, posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 15:29:46
> Lou,
>
> Where's the study? The graph means nothing, (as stated in my last post) therefore there is only that 1 statement concerning deaths among people who took or were taking Zoloft. Where did this info come from? Depressed people commit suicide. This so called info by no means infers that deaths were caused solely by taking Zoloft. The information also states that these people were taking many other meds, and their diagnoses are not given. This holds no merit.
>
> I do believe it can happen, hence the warning on the med. In many cases the benefit outweighs the risk - did you not read how my daughter greatly improved after she started taking Zoloft? She was already extremely depressed and highly suicidal. I believe strongly that depression causes suicide.
>
> Ironically, the website you keep referring to is funded by the large pharmaceutical companies, where if you look for any information, is pushing major brand name psychiatric medications.
>
> If you have real case studies that prove what you are trying to say, go ahead and send the link.
>
> LauraL,
Here is a video that I would like for you to view. To see this video:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[ youtube, 6Xjx0gL83I ]
Lou
Posted by Phil on June 24, 2013, at 18:12:34
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-completed suicide-zoloft, posted by LAURAH952 on June 24, 2013, at 15:29:46
90% + of people that commit suicide have a mental illness. Hope things are OK.
Posted by Phillipa on June 24, 2013, at 18:29:37
In reply to Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only, posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 23:35:46
Laura I do I feel for now you are making the right decision. Phillipa
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 25, 2013, at 9:25:05
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » LAURAH952, posted by Phillipa on June 24, 2013, at 18:29:37
In reply to Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only, posted by LAURAH952 on June 23, 2013, at 23:35:46
Laura I do I feel for now you are making the right decision. Phillipa
Thank you so much Phillipa,I really wasn't comfortable giving her the Remeron with the Zoloft. When her pdoc called, I told her that I was hoping that I didn't have to give her the Remeron, and she replied, "I thought you wanted her to be able to sleep" I'm thinking, "are ya kiddin' me? You gave her Remeron so she could sleep???" She also told me to do whatever I wanted as it pertained to tapering off the Seroquel. I really think I need a new pdoc. Would you be inclined to agree?
We also tapered off the Seroquel entirely too quickly for Taylor. (dropping 25mg every 4 days) The mood swings it caused were drastic. She's now at 50mg, and we'll taper very very slowly.
When she's on the Zoloft(100mg) only, we'll be better able to determine if bipolar exists, yes?
If we ever get into bipolar meds, I have the feeling that we'll have a long road ahead of us. It was for me; I've been on more than I can count in the past 3 years.
Thank you so much again!
Laura
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 25, 2013, at 10:09:23
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-completed suicide-zoloft » LAURAH952, posted by Phil on June 24, 2013, at 18:12:34
90% + of people that commit suicide have a mental illness. Hope things are OK.
Hi Phil,
Thanks for your reply. I figured the percentage was near 90%.
Things are not ok yet, but they will be.
Laura
Posted by Beckett on June 25, 2013, at 18:04:27
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » Phillipa, posted by LAURAH952 on June 25, 2013, at 9:25:05
Good Luck Laura.
Posted by Phillipa on June 25, 2013, at 20:22:23
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » Phillipa, posted by LAURAH952 on June 25, 2013, at 9:25:05
Laura I'd get a second opinion as this is a child. Phillipa
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 26, 2013, at 12:53:21
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » LAURAH952, posted by Phillipa on June 25, 2013, at 20:22:23
Hi Phillipa,
I now have an intake appt. for Taylor to see a new adolescent psychiatrist.
Thanks,
Laura
Posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2013, at 21:16:43
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only, posted by LAURAH952 on June 26, 2013, at 12:53:21
Laura that's fantastic. Please update? Phillipa
Posted by LAURAH952 on June 27, 2013, at 13:16:10
In reply to Re: Thinking of keeping my daughter on Zoloft only » LAURAH952, posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2013, at 21:16:43
Will Do Phillipa!
Thanks!!
- Laura
Posted by Zyprexa on July 3, 2013, at 6:13:23
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter, posted by laurah952 on June 23, 2013, at 8:49:28
Actualy, now that you mention it, I did have bizzar nightmares on remeron. I was switching from zyprexa to remeron. I quickly went back on zyprexa. zyprexa is very similar a drug as seroquel, which I've not taken. From what I hear seroquel is more likely to make you tired than zyprexa. zyprexa is used for mood disorders too. Very effective. I've been taking it now 15 years. Great for getting your mind off suicide. Remeron is probably more likely to make tired than zyprexa. For a 13 yo girl it probably would not take much zyprexa, maybe 5-10 mg. I currently take 15mg. I don't know for her, but would not go with the remeron.
Posted by laurah952 on July 3, 2013, at 6:40:40
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter, posted by Zyprexa on July 3, 2013, at 6:13:23
> Actualy, now that you mention it, I did have bizzar nightmares on remeron. I was switching from zyprexa to remeron. I quickly went back on zyprexa. zyprexa is very similar a drug as seroquel, which I've not taken. From what I hear seroquel is more likely to make you tired than zyprexa. zyprexa is used for mood disorders too. Very effective. I've been taking it now 15 years. Great for getting your mind off suicide. Remeron is probably more likely to make tired than zyprexa. For a 13 yo girl it probably would not take much zyprexa, maybe 5-10 mg. I currently take 15mg. I don't know for her, but would not go with the remeron.
Thank you! I was really concerned about giving 2 antidepressants to my daughter who may be bi-polar. She's really been poisoned about Seroquel, and does not want to take it anymore. (although I believe that it was working for her to some degree, I wanted to replace it anyway)
Why did you want to get off of Zyprexa?
I'm going to ask her new pdoc about mood stabilizers for her. I don't think treating mood swings with Zoloft alone is the answer. She seems determined to try it though. As long as she's well enough, the less medication the better.
Thanks!
Laura
Posted by antennastoheaven on July 3, 2013, at 12:01:24
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter, posted by Zyprexa on July 3, 2013, at 6:13:23
> Actualy, now that you mention it, I did have bizzar nightmares on remeron. I was switching from zyprexa to remeron. I quickly went back on zyprexa.
How long were you off Zyprexa? I would guess that going off Zyprexa could result in a few days of more intense dreams, if you are able to sleep.
I went off Zyprexa without starting any other drug, and had trouble sleeping for a few weeks. But based on the minor increase in psychotic thinking, I could see having bad dreams if I were able to sleep.
Posted by Zyprexa on July 5, 2013, at 19:40:29
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter » Zyprexa, posted by antennastoheaven on July 3, 2013, at 12:01:24
I was not off the zyprexa for very long, every time I go off it its horable and I fall apart. The time with remeron I think I had only gone off z for one day. Since starting z my longest time off it was about 4 months. Which I was house bound and none funtional, not eating or sleeping.
I think my doc wanted me to try switching z for rem, probably to see what my condition was.
Every time I go off z is usualy to lose weight. With out z I don't eat and get very skinny. Taking the right dose of z for my condition (scizoaffective disorder) makes me gain weight. Recently I've found success preventing the weight gain by spliting the daily dose into 2 taken 6 hours appart.
Posted by Zyprexa on July 5, 2013, at 20:09:48
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter » Zyprexa, posted by laurah952 on July 3, 2013, at 6:40:40
why does she want off seroquel? Is it tiredness, or weight? Zyprexa still makes you tired, which is a very nice aspect of it. I think z is better at mood fixing.
Did you also take z?
zoloft I take with z. I'm taking perphenazine, zyprexa, zoloft and wellbutrin. The wellbutrin is for energy which zyprexa lowers, so does p. I'm not really sure if perphenazine is doing much now. Its an AP too, but not for mood. I guess it was getting me by when I was on a reduced zyprexa. My doc wanted so see if P would replace z, because of weight. The zoloft is deffenetly helping, depression.
No side effects for me with zoloft. Remeron was very sedating. More so than zyprexa and it made me eat like no tomorow. Rem is not the same type of AD (anti-depressant) at zoloft. zoloft is an SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor), Rem is an SNRI (norepineprin). I just read that its used for major depression. Norepinephrin is a different type of messenger in brain. Dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrin are the 3. You basicly get a different effect from the 3. If she is bipolar rem probably wont work. Zyprexa, depakote, lamictal, are some that would. Depakote didn't do much for me, at a high dose and no problems stoping it, I was taking zyprexa at time. lamictal didn't help much either. Everyone acts differently to the different meds. One which is good for one could be awful for anouther. Depakote will also put on a lot of weight. Lamictal won't.
Posted by laurah952 on July 6, 2013, at 10:13:23
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter, posted by Zyprexa on July 5, 2013, at 20:09:48
>why does she want off seroquel? Is it tiredness, or weight? Zyprexa still makes you tired, which is a very nice aspect of it. I think z is better at mood fixing.
Did you also take z?
Hi,
She strongly believes that Seroquel is no good for her long term. She must have overheard my family talking, and they have a no-medication mentality. We'll see how that goes. She's on 25mg along w/ 100mg Zoloft and is doing pretty well. (Much better than before the meds)
She hasn't been eating much since the meds, and while looking healthy, she's thin, so a weight gainer would be fine.
I have not taken Zyprexa, but I need a boost more than anything right now.
Thanks,
Laura
Posted by SLS on July 6, 2013, at 12:44:27
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter » Zyprexa, posted by laurah952 on July 6, 2013, at 10:13:23
> I have not taken Zyprexa, but I need a boost more than anything right now.
What do you mean by "boost"
- Scott
Posted by laurah952 on July 6, 2013, at 17:52:51
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter » laurah952, posted by SLS on July 6, 2013, at 12:44:27
> > I have not taken Zyprexa, but I need a boost more than anything right now.
>
> What do you mean by "boost"
>
>
> - Scott
Hi Scott,I need something better for depression and fatigue/motivation.
Maybe I just need to resume my exercise routine. (I was in a serious car accident in December, and am only getting back to normal physically.) During my recovery, my daughter's own depression was revealed - not a good combination for my well being, so I'll push myself to get started again before adding or changing meds.
If that doesn't work, perhaps a higher dose of Cymbalta, something to add to it, or a new AD.
Thanks - Laura
Posted by SLS on July 6, 2013, at 18:23:14
In reply to Re: Remeron and Zoloft for MDD, my 13 yo daughter » SLS, posted by laurah952 on July 6, 2013, at 17:52:51
> > > I have not taken Zyprexa, but I need a boost more than anything right now.
> > What do you mean by "boost"
> I need something better for depression and fatigue/motivation.
>
> Maybe I just need to resume my exercise routine. (I was in a serious car accident in December, and am only getting back to normal physically.) During my recovery, my daughter's own depression was revealed - not a good combination for my well being, so I'll push myself to get started again before adding or changing meds.
>
> If that doesn't work, perhaps a higher dose of Cymbalta, something to add to it, or a new AD.
>
>
> Thanks - LauraHang in there. Both you and Taylor have demonstrated responsivity to pharmacotherapy. It is just a matter of time before you both find your optimum treatment regimes.
Time.
- Scott
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