![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 61 to 85 of 98. Go back in thread:
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17823788
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:13:43
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are only interested in trials with humans which have involved very high fat and very low carb diets. I don't think you will find many of those.
This is a very interesting exchange.
I am not as educated as you when it comes to this stuff - not nearly. However, what Larry has said makes a great deal of sense to me. Carbohydrate/insulin dynamics seem relevant to obesity, metabolic syndrome, and perhaps depression via inflammatory responses. I don't like the idea of high animal fat (too many free radicals formed?), but I have been eating 2 eggs per day for 30 years, and my cholesterol profile is normal. My triglycerides, on the other hand, are very high, but Abilify seems to be the culprit here.
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:15:58
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
> I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17823788
>
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
>
> http://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=nutrisci_etds&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com.au%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dsaturated%2520fats%2520intestine%2520bacteria%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D39%26ved%3D0CGEQFjAIOB4%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fuknowledge.uky.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1005%2526context%253Dnutrisci_etds%26ei%3DNXbSUPe4D4qZiAf024AI%26usg%3DAFQjCNHfN1XEovpn4xkDtV2RcDCLcAOUxA%26bvm%3Dbv.1355534169%2Cd.dGY#search=%22saturated%20fats%20intestine%20bacteria%22
>I just checked and in the last study (thesis) the high fat fed mice were on 20% calories from carbs.
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:19:55
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
Very interesting citations.
> I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17823788
>
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0047713
>
> http://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1005&context=nutrisci_etds&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com.au%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dsaturated%2520fats%2520intestine%2520bacteria%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D39%26ved%3D0CGEQFjAIOB4%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fuknowledge.uky.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1005%2526context%253Dnutrisci_etds%26ei%3DNXbSUPe4D4qZiAf024AI%26usg%3DAFQjCNHfN1XEovpn4xkDtV2RcDCLcAOUxA%26bvm%3Dbv.1355534169%2Cd.dGY#search=%22saturated%20fats%20intestine%20bacteria%22
>
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2012, at 21:53:16
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:19:55
Hard or soft boiled eggs are natures best complete protein. I need to get back into this type of eating again. Phillipa
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:00:03
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are only interested in trials with humans which have involved very high fat and very low carb diets. I don't think you will find many of those.
I gave you some excellent full-text articles involving humans in this post, my second in this thread: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20121217/msgs/1033789.html
I have more, if you want them.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:03:51
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:11:25
> I'm more interested in how a high fat diet causes endotoxemia. Yes, this is in rodents and they don't say how many carbs in the high fat diet so of course it's invalid.
If they are rodent studies (rodents eat a lot of seeds/grain), and/or they don't define the carb energy content, they are indeed invalid. At the very least, we don't feed rodents refined carbs, in any case (high glycemic indes). Think about that, for a moment.
If you don't assess the methodology, you have no business trying to interpret the results.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:13:38
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 21:13:43
> I don't like the idea of high animal fat (too many free radicals formed?), but I have been eating 2 eggs per day for 30 years, and my cholesterol profile is normal. My triglycerides, on the other hand, are very high, but Abilify seems to be the culprit here.
>
>
> - ScottJust a comment, Scott. Free radicals form from the oxidation of unsaturated fats. Animal fats are safer than plant fats in this regard, because of the degree of saturation.
Your body is fully equipped to metabolize saturated fats. Carbs are converted to stearic and palmitic acids, both saturated fats. Unfortunately, carbs stimulate insulin secretion, which blocks saturated fat metabolism entirely. That's the nub, because de novo lipogenesis (new fat creation from sugars) also stimulates those inflammatory cytokines. Dietary saturated fats do not.
Lar
Posted by SLS on December 27, 2012, at 22:22:35
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » SLS, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:13:38
> > I don't like the idea of high animal fat (too many free radicals formed?), but I have been eating 2 eggs per day for 30 years, and my cholesterol profile is normal. My triglycerides, on the other hand, are very high, but Abilify seems to be the culprit here.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Just a comment, Scott. Free radicals form from the oxidation of unsaturated fats. Animal fats are safer than plant fats in this regard, because of the degree of saturation.
>
> Your body is fully equipped to metabolize saturated fats. Carbs are converted to stearic and palmitic acids, both saturated fats. Unfortunately, carbs stimulate insulin secretion, which blocks saturated fat metabolism entirely. That's the nub, because de novo lipogenesis (new fat creation from sugars) also stimulates those inflammatory cytokines. Dietary saturated fats do not.
>
> Lar
>
>
Thanks for the explanation!
- Scott
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:48:31
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » larryhoover, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 20:31:10
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you are only interested in trials with humans which have involved very high fat and very low carb diets. I don't think you will find many of those.
It occurs to me that we have struggled with the parameters of our definitions, which also limits the parameters of understanding.
A low-fat diet almost certainly involves a high-carb component, as it is unlikely that the remainder of the caloric intake would be supplied by protein.
Your original post referred to a high-fat diet, specifically. A high-fat diet may or may not be associated with high-carbs, and the distinction is crucial. Unless a diet plan specifically defines the carb content, we cannot know if the remainder of calories are dominantly supplied by carb or by protein. My posts have been focussed on elucidating the difference between these two cases.
However, when a low-carb diet is defined, it almost certainly simultaneously defines a high-fat diet, as it is unlikely that a low-carb diet will find the bulk of the energy calories supplied by protein. It is not hard to find high-fat diet studies, when one uses search parameters limited by "low carbohydrate diet".
PubMedCentral, the full-text site associated with PubMed, yields over 20,000 hits using those keywords. For some reason, PubMed gives fewer, but there is ample opportunity to mine PMC. The beauty of PMC is the reference lists themselves, which allow you to search tangential points from each full-text paper.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 23:15:56
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 22:48:31
Ooops, forgot to give the link for PubMedCentral and "low carbohydrate diet"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=low+carbohydrate+diet
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2012, at 23:49:02
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 23:15:56
Lar years ago I was on the original Atkins diet of all protein & fat with only carb source a small amount of salad basically greens. I have a 4 hour glucose tolerance test during this time and came out diabetic. When the doc found out the diet I was on. I was told to go home and eat high carbs for two weeks repeat the test which I did and was completly normal. And was told I had low blood sugar. And to eat protein every 4 hours which did til lost Taste & smell so now it dark chocolate. Taste buds sweet, sour, bitter, spicy. Texture is important to me. Any ideas after 4 specialists who said no way how to restore smell & taste? Supposedly some virus destroyed the neurons in nose. It's a loss like no other. thanks, P
Posted by rca on December 28, 2012, at 8:55:02
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression, posted by Trotter on December 27, 2012, at 21:15:58
I think it is safe to assume that a meal high in saturated fat causes inflammation; that is a well-established fact accepted for at least 15 years. But the prevailing thought had been that saturated fat causes our gut lining to become leaky and allow our own bacteria (endotoxins) to slip into our blood stream and cause the inflammation. Then came the study cited below (Erridge, 201). We now know that the high load of bacteria in animal products contain endotoxins (even in dead bacteria so doesnt matter if cook at high temperatures or expose to highly acidic environments like the stomach). And animal fat may play a profound role in the pathogenesis of this after-meal inflammation by increasing the absorption of the endotoxins, since endotoxin has a strong affinity for the saturated fat transport system through the gut wall and into the blood stream (Deopurkar et al., 2010, below).
So what can you do? Whole food plant based diet.
Erridge C. The capacity of foodstuffs to induce innate immune activation of human monocytes in vitro is dependent on food content of stimulants of Toll-like receptors 2 and 4. Br J Nutr. 2011 Jan; 105(1):15-23.
Deopurkar R, Ghanim H, Friedman J, Abuaysheh S, Sia CL, Mohanty P, Viswanathan P, Chaudhuri A, Dandona P. Differential effects of cream, glucose, and orange juice on inflammation, endotoxin, and the expression of Toll-like receptor-4 and suppressor of cytokine signaling-3. Diabetes Care. 2010 May; 33(5):991-7.
Posted by rca on December 28, 2012, at 9:14:39
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » rca, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:19:59
On obesity: Of course one can be thin or overweight on a preponderance of protein, fat, or carbohydrates in our diet, depending upon the quantities involved (disregarding other effects than weight gain/ loss, like morbidity and mortality). Whole food plant based diet contains a lot of water and fiber so the tendency is to eat fewer calories to reach satiety.
But there may be more involved than that. Since this thread features gut flora, consider this: Our good gut bacteria, while technically unable to digest fiber, can break it down to an extent to make a compound called propionate which is absorbed into our blood stream. What does propionate do? Well, it inhibits cholesterol synthesis and it has a hypophagic effect meaning it helps us eat less. Apparently it does this by slowing down the rate at which our food empties from our stomachs thereby making us feel fuller, longer. Propionate may be able to regulate food intake or the generation of new fat cells, resulting in an overall anti-obesity effect.
Arora T, Sharma R, Frost G. Propionate. Anti-obesity and satiety enhancing factor? Appetite. 2011 Apr;56(2):511-5.
Posted by rca on December 28, 2012, at 9:39:28
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » rca, posted by larryhoover on December 27, 2012, at 15:19:59
A plant-based diet high in fiber may lower bad cholesterol; only in individuals with a type of familial hypercholesterolemia will diet be unable to lower levels into the safe range. For example see the review from the editor and chief of the Journal of American Cardiology below (Roberts, 2010). The literature supporting cholesterol lowering through plant based diet is just too vast to summaries but see for example Ferdowsian, 2009 below.
The new USDA Dietary Guidelines (heavily influenced by meat and dairy industries) even recommend a more plant-based diet to lower cholesterol intake.
Roberts WC. It's the cholesterol, stupid! Am J Cardiol. 2010 Nov 1;106(9):1364-6.
Ferdowsian HR, Barnard ND. Effects of plant-based diets on plasma lipids. Am J Cardiol. 2009 Oct 1;104(7):947-56
US Department of Agriculture. 2011. Report of the Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee on the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, 2010.
Posted by rca on December 28, 2012, at 9:47:39
In reply to High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by Trotter on December 19, 2012, at 23:44:21
This very large study was published this week on the association of inflammation and psychological stress: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1485898
Posted by larryhoover on December 28, 2012, at 10:44:25
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by rca on December 28, 2012, at 8:55:02
> I think it is safe to assume that a meal high in saturated fat causes inflammation; that is a well-established fact accepted for at least 15 years.
In mice, yes. In humans, it's a different story. And, in humans, it also depends on how sick their metabolism already is, and what other nutrients are co-ingested.
For example, this study comparing challenge tests of bolus ingestion of fats of differing composition.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21736782
"In addition, ALA and EPA were shown to elicit different effects on the release and mRNA expression levels of inflammatory markers in PBMC cultured ex vivo, with EPA having the most prominent pro-inflammatory potential."The so-called pro-inflammatory PUFA arichadonic acid wasn't pro-inflammatory, but the anti-inflammatory eicosapentaenoic acid was? Hmmmm. In this case PUFAs were inflammatory, but not saturated fat.
Here's a full-text article discussing various fatty acid challenges in people with differing metabolic health. The responses are quite variable across the groups.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402390/Now, as to your references, let's see what they really say.
> Erridge C. The capacity of foodstuffs to induce innate immune activation of human monocytes in vitro is dependent on food content of stimulants of Toll-like receptors 2 and 4. Br J Nutr. 2011 Jan; 105(1):15-23.
"The ingestion of fatty meals is associated with a transient, low-grade systemic inflammatory response in human subjects, involving the activation of circulating monocytes and the secretion of pro-inflammatory cytokines."
Note, they do not implicate saturated fats. Moreover, they do not discuss the fact that this is only seen in people simultaneously exposed to both carbs and fat.
The actual study performed was in vitro, which means that the cells were not in a normal matrix, with the normal complex of homeostatic influences. And, having done in vitro work myself, I can assure you that the nutrient broth used is high-carb. Can you say confound?
> Deopurkar R, Ghanim H, Friedman J, Abuaysheh S, Sia CL, Mohanty P, Viswanathan P, Chaudhuri A, Dandona P. Differential effects of cream, glucose, and orange juice on inflammation, endotoxin, and the expression of Toll-like receptor-4 and suppressor of cytokine signaling-3. Diabetes Care. 2010 May; 33(5):991-7.
Full-text here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2858203/
Interesting opening remark: "We have recently shown that a high-fat high-carbohydrate (HFHC) meal induces an increase in plasma concentrations of endotoxin (lipopolysaccharide [LPS]) and the expression of Toll-like receptor-4 (TLR-4) and suppresser of cytokine signaling-3 (SOCS3) in mononuclear cells (MNCs) in addition to oxidative stress and cellular inflammation."
High-fat HIGH-CARB combination. There it is, plain as day.
From the full-text article's conclusion section: "It would thus appear that the oxidative stress and inflammation-inducing actions of the HFHC meal are due to the combination of saturated fat and the carbohydrate (glucose) at least."
In that conclusion, they are referring to an earlier study they did comparing high-fat high-carb meal to a fruit and fiber meal. They presented no evidence to implicate the saturated fat, however. It's funny how these assumptions persist, without evidence.
This article is quite interesting in one sense, as the only difference in inflammatory response between glucose and cream was with respect to lipopolysaccharides. Glucose itself was extremely inflammatory, and more rapidly than was the cream. I'm going to take a closer look at lipopolysaccharides.
I'll close with a nice summary piece.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19082851
Lipids. 2009 Apr;44(4):297-309. doi: 10.1007/s11745-008-3274-2. Epub 2008 Dec 12.Carbohydrate restriction has a more favorable impact on the metabolic syndrome than a low fat diet.
Volek JS, Phinney SD, Forsythe CE, Quann EE, Wood RJ, Puglisi MJ, Kraemer WJ, Bibus DM, Fernandez ML, Feinman RD.
SourceDepartment of Kinesiology, University of Connecticut, 2095 Hillside Road, Storrs, CT 06269-1110, USA. jeff.volek@uconn.edu
AbstractWe recently proposed that the biological markers improved by carbohydrate restriction were precisely those that define the metabolic syndrome (MetS), and that the common thread was regulation of insulin as a control element. We specifically tested the idea with a 12-week study comparing two hypocaloric diets (approximately 1,500 kcal): a carbohydrate-restricted diet (CRD) (%carbohydrate:fat:protein = 12:59:28) and a low-fat diet (LFD) (56:24:20) in 40 subjects with atherogenic dyslipidemia. Both interventions led to improvements in several metabolic markers, but subjects following the CRD had consistently reduced glucose (-12%) and insulin (-50%) concentrations, insulin sensitivity (-55%), weight loss (-10%), decreased adiposity (-14%), and more favorable triacylglycerol (TAG) (-51%), HDL-C (13%) and total cholesterol/HDL-C ratio (-14%) responses. In addition to these markers for MetS, the CRD subjects showed more favorable responses to alternative indicators of cardiovascular risk: postprandial lipemia (-47%), the Apo B/Apo A-1 ratio (-16%), and LDL particle distribution. Despite a threefold higher intake of dietary saturated fat during the CRD, saturated fatty acids in TAG and cholesteryl ester were significantly decreased, as was palmitoleic acid (16:1n-7), an endogenous marker of lipogenesis, compared to subjects consuming the LFD. Serum retinol binding protein 4 has been linked to insulin-resistant states, and only the CRD decreased this marker (-20%). The findings provide support for unifying the disparate markers of MetS and for the proposed intimate connection with dietary carbohydrate. The results support the use of dietary carbohydrate restriction as an effective approach to improve features of MetS and cardiovascular risk.
Lar
Posted by Trotter on December 28, 2012, at 13:40:31
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » Trotter, posted by rca on December 28, 2012, at 9:47:39
> This very large study was published this week on the association of inflammation and psychological stress: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1485898
Yes, it is my understanding that chronic low grade inflammation, such as caused by endotoxemia, causes depression.
Posted by Trotter on December 28, 2012, at 13:50:52
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by rca on December 28, 2012, at 8:55:02
> I think it is safe to assume that a meal high in saturated fat causes inflammation; that is a well-established fact accepted for at least 15 years. But the prevailing thought had been that saturated fat causes our gut lining to become leaky and allow our own bacteria (endotoxins) to slip into our blood stream and cause the inflammation. Then came the study cited below (Erridge, 201). We now know that the high load of bacteria in animal products contain endotoxins (even in dead bacteria so doesnt matter if cook at high temperatures or expose to highly acidic environments like the stomach). And animal fat may play a profound role in the pathogenesis of this after-meal inflammation by increasing the absorption of the endotoxins, since endotoxin has a strong affinity for the saturated fat transport system through the gut wall and into the blood stream (Deopurkar et al., 2010, below).
>
> So what can you do? Whole food plant based diet.
>
> Erridge C. The capacity of foodstuffs to induce innate immune activation of human monocytes in vitro is dependent on food content of stimulants of Toll-like receptors 2 and 4. Br J Nutr. 2011 Jan; 105(1):15-23.
>
> Deopurkar R, Ghanim H, Friedman J, Abuaysheh S, Sia CL, Mohanty P, Viswanathan P, Chaudhuri A, Dandona P. Differential effects of cream, glucose, and orange juice on inflammation, endotoxin, and the expression of Toll-like receptor-4 and suppressor of cytokine signaling-3. Diabetes Care. 2010 May; 33(5):991-7.
>
>You seem to assume that this laboratory study proves that endotoxemia is caused by endotoxins in protein or refined foods and not from the lumen via a permeable intestine. I agree it establishes that such foods contain some endotoxin, but that is all.
The bowel has massive amounts of endotoxin. I think the amount of endotoxin in the bowel regardless of whether one is on a plant or protein orientated diet dwarfs any endotoxin ingested in food. I still firmly believe a high fat diet causes endotoxemia due to increased intestinal permeability. I think this has been pretty well established in rodent studies which looked at high fat diets, not high protein diets.
Posted by Trotter on December 28, 2012, at 13:59:26
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » Trotter, posted by rca on December 28, 2012, at 8:55:02
>since endotoxin has a strong affinity for the saturated fat transport system through the gut wall and into the blood stream (Deopurkar et al., 2010, below).
>Can you please provide evidence to support your statement that the translocation of endotoxin is facilitated by a "saturated fat transport system"? It is my current understanding that a high fat diet increases endotoxemia by affecting the bowel bacterial composition, specifically by reducing bifidobacteria. I think it is the bifidobacteria which help maintain intestinal integrity.
Posted by SLS on December 28, 2012, at 14:26:54
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by Trotter on December 28, 2012, at 13:40:31
> > This very large study was published this week on the association of inflammation and psychological stress: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1485898
>
> Yes, it is my understanding that chronic low grade inflammation, such as caused by endotoxemia, causes depression.Am I failing to find indications of causation or directionality in this study?
I don't understand why whenever depression is associated with a biological finding, there is an immediate conclusion drawn that the observed biological phenomenon must be the cause of that depression. I sometimes think that authors like to see their names in lights.
- Scott
Posted by Trotter on December 28, 2012, at 15:47:59
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression » Trotter, posted by SLS on December 28, 2012, at 14:26:54
> > > This very large study was published this week on the association of inflammation and psychological stress: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1485898
> >
> > Yes, it is my understanding that chronic low grade inflammation, such as caused by endotoxemia, causes depression.
>
> Am I failing to find indications of causation or directionality in this study?
>
> I don't understand why whenever depression is associated with a biological finding, there is an immediate conclusion drawn that the observed biological phenomenon must be the cause of that depression. I sometimes think that authors like to see their names in lights.
>
>
> - ScottYes, they did not prove cause and effect in this particular study, only that a link exists. However there is a lot of cause and effect evidence to show that inflammation causes depression. I have presented some of that evidence to you already.
You seem to be married to your belief that inflammation is caued by depression and not the other way round.
Posted by SLS on December 28, 2012, at 18:28:02
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by Trotter on December 28, 2012, at 15:47:59
> > > > This very large study was published this week on the association of inflammation and psychological stress: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1485898
> > > Yes, it is my understanding that chronic low grade inflammation, such as caused by endotoxemia, causes depression.
> > Am I failing to find indications of causation or directionality in this study?
> >
> > I don't understand why whenever depression is associated with a biological finding, there is an immediate conclusion drawn that the observed biological phenomenon must be the cause of that depression. I sometimes think that authors like to see their names in lights.
> Yes, they did not prove cause and effect in this particular study, only that a link exists.Yeah, well...
> However there is a lot of cause and effect evidence to show that inflammation causes depression.
Instead of throwing a URL at me, perhaps you can summarize this evidence as you understand it? I still have a difficult time reading stuff.
> I have presented some of that evidence to you already.
Maybe I'll go back and take a look. My problem is that I have not seen a convincing demonstration that inflammation causes Major Depressive Disorder (MDD), only an associative link for which directionality is ambiguous. How do we know when the true onset of the MDD disorder begins? There might be a convergence in time of separate processes. Inflammation might be a prosyndromal consequence of the onset of disease, so it would show up before the depressive symptoms would.
Can immune activation and inflammatory processes cause someone feel depressed? Perhaps. After all, interferon certainly does. However, no one has produced evidence that interferon causes MDD. Like I said, I think it possible that once induced, MDD and the inflammatory reaction to that pathology converge and "feed on each other", producing a positive feedback loop. Inflammation by itself might not be the inducer.
I don't know. I just haven't seen what I would call proof that inflammation leads to Axis I disorders. If you really want to see something interesting, perform a Medline search on schizophrenia and inflammation and tell me what you come up with.
> You seem to be married to your belief that inflammation is caued by depression and not the other way round.
I am married to my feeble intellect and relative ignorance.
No big deal. The idea isn't to prove whether I am right or wrong. It is simply to challenge an idea that might influence people to seek ineffective treatments if that idea is wrong.
I have no idea what you suffer from. I look forward to you confirming for yourself that your illness is indeed MDD, and how your current belief system helps you to make treatment decisions.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on December 28, 2012, at 20:42:04
In reply to Re: High fat diet -) inflammation -) depression, posted by Trotter on December 28, 2012, at 15:47:59
> Instead of throwing a URL at me, perhaps you can summarize this evidence as you understand it? I still have a difficult time reading stuff.
I apologize. That is asking a bit much of you, and you have probably explained things in a previous post. I'll just keep reading.
- Scott
Posted by rca on December 29, 2012, at 9:29:19
In reply to Re: Bifidobacteria reduce depression » rca, posted by larryhoover on December 28, 2012, at 10:44:25
Thanks for your thoughtful reply - haven't "digested" it all but can respond to one comment here.
>High-fat HIGH-CARB combination. There it is, plain as day.
The study (quote below) involved comparison of a high fat high carb (HFHC) group compared to an American Heart Association recommended food group (AHA). But you know what they were actually eating? The HFHC groups ate egg muffin and sausage muffin sandwiches and two hash browns, which contain 88 g carbohydrates, 51 g fat [33% saturated] and 34 g protein [carbohydrates 41%, protein 17%, and fat 42%]; the second group ate oatmeal, milk, orange juice, raisins, peanut butter, and English muffin (carbohydrates 58%, protein 15%, and fat 27%). I think their choice of these two groups were unfortunate and their labeling misleading.
The HFHC group ate a typical SAD diet of animal products and simple carbohydrates; the second group still included some animal product and was predominately a high carbohydrate meal, but had a significant amount of complex carbohydrates too.
Their data indicated a pronounced inflammation after the HFHC (SAD) diet compared to the AHA diet (even with the milk , juice, and English muffin Id prefer comparing to a whole plant based diet something like whole rolled oats, blueberries, crushed flax seeds in soy milk).
The entire article is available on-line here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Diabetes%20Care.%202009%20Dec%3B%2032(12)%3A2281-7.
Heres the interesting part. Please examine the two figures (each with three figures on them), showing the inflammatory marker rise (figure 1) and the endotoxin rise (Figure 2). Notice anything strange? In all cases these parameters rise in just ONE HOUR after the meal certainly not time enough to reach the leaky gut colon where all the bacteria are. I see no explanation other than there are endotoxins in the animal products that are being absorbed in the small intestine.
Yep. Look at (Erridge, 2011) below. For the first time ever, they aimed to determine whether common foodstuffs may contain appreciable quantities of endotoxin. Forty extracts were therefore prepared from twenty-seven foodstuffs common to the Western diet, and the capacity of each to induce the secretion of inflammatory signals from human white blood cells was measured. They found whopping doses of endotoxin equivalents in pork, poultry, dairy.
Conclusion is that animal products may cause inflammation because of their endotoxins.
Ghanim H, Abuaysheh S, Sia CL, Korzeniewski K, Chaudhuri A, Fernandez-Real JM, Dandona P. Increase in plasma endotoxin concentrations and the expression of Toll-like receptors and suppressor of cytokine signaling-3 in mononuclear cells after a high-fat, high-carbohydrate meal: implications for insulin resistance. Diabetes Care. 2009 Dec; 32(12):2281-7.Erridge C. The capacity of foodstuffs to induce innate immune activation of human monocytes in vitro is dependent on food content of stimulants of Toll-like receptors 2 and 4. Br J Nutr. 2011 Jan; 105(1):15-23. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20849668
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