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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by phillipa on October 9, 2012, at 20:58:35
Fits in with talking about old 7 year cymbalta brand name. I think the military keeps meds for years and years. Phillipa
From Medscape Medical NewsExpired Medications May Maintain Potency for Decades
Ricki Lewis, PhD
Authors and Disclosures
October 8, 2012 An analysis of 8 medications indicates that most of the active ingredients they contain were present in adequate amounts decades after the drugs' expiration dates, according to results from a study published online October 8 in the Archives of Internal Medicine.
Lee Cantrell, PharmD, from the California Poison Control System, San Diego Division, University of California San Francisco School of Pharmacy, and colleagues used liquid chromatography/mass spectrometry to measure the amounts of the active ingredients in the medications. The medicines, which had expired 28 to 40 years ago, were found in a retail pharmacy in their original, unopened packaging.
To meet US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) standards, an active ingredient must be present in 90% to 110% of the amount indicated on the label. Drug expiration dates are set for 12 to 60 months after production, even though many compounds can persist far longer.
In the new analysis, 12 of the 14 active ingredients persisted in concentrations that were 90% or greater of the amount indicated on the label. These 12 compounds retained their full potency for 336 months or longer. Eight of them retained potency for at least 480 months. Dr. Cantrells team was unable to find a standard for homatropine, 1 of the 15 ingredients.
Only aspirin and amphetamine fell below the 90% cutoff. Phenacetin was present at greater than the cutoff in Fiorinal (butalbital, aspirin, caffeine, and codeine phosphate, but was considerably less in Codempiral No. 3. The authors attribute the deficit in Codempiral to conditions that led to preferential degradation of phenacetin because of its amide group, compared with codeine, which is also in Codempiral but is more chemically stable.
Three compounds persisted in greater than 110% of the labeled contents: methaqualone (in Somnafac), meprobamate (in Bamadex), and pentobarbital (in Nebralin). These relatively high amounts may reflect degradation of other components of the compounded drug, the fact that the samples were produced before FDA-instituted quality control measures in 1963, or inconsistencies of the analytical techniques between when the drugs were compounded and now.
The new findings are consistent with the efforts of the Shelf-Life Extension Program, which has extended the expiration dates on 88% of 122 drugs tested so far. Extensions range from 66 to 278 months.
"[O]ur results support the effectiveness of broadly extending expiration dates for many drugs," the researchers conclude. They also point out that extending shelf life can significantly lower costs to consumers.
Limitations of the analysis, the investigators write, include an inability to confirm the storage conditions of the drug samples, as well as imprecise dating of the samples.
The authors have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.
Arch Intern Med. Published online October 8, 2012.
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 9, 2012, at 21:35:46
In reply to Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by phillipa on October 9, 2012, at 20:58:35
Interesting article Phillipa, ty for posting it. Just fyi, the one class of drugs you should worry about taking past their expiration date is the tetracyclines..tetracyline, doxycycline, etc. Over time they can deteriorate to a toxic substance that causes Fanconi's syndrome, which causes renal problems, if I remember right.
Me, I keep every left over psych drug I've ever been rx'd. Mostly b/c it really amuses me whenever I open my med. cabinet. :)
Kat
> Fits in with talking about old 7 year cymbalta brand name. I think the military keeps meds for years and years. Phillipa
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> October 8, 2012 An analysis of 8 medications indicates that most of the active ingredients they contain were present in adequate amounts decades after the drugs' expiration dates, according to results from a study published online October 8 in the Archives of Internal Medicine.
>
> Lee Cantrell, PharmD, from the California Poison Control System, San Diego Division, University of California San Francisco School of Pharmacy, and colleagues used liquid chromatography/mass spectrometry to measure the amounts of the active ingredients in the medications. The medicines, which had expired 28 to 40 years ago, were found in a retail pharmacy in their original, unopened packaging.
>
> To meet US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) standards, an active ingredient must be present in 90% to 110% of the amount indicated on the label. Drug expiration dates are set for 12 to 60 months after production, even though many compounds can persist far longer.
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> In the new analysis, 12 of the 14 active ingredients persisted in concentrations that were 90% or greater of the amount indicated on the label. These 12 compounds retained their full potency for 336 months or longer. Eight of them retained potency for at least 480 months. Dr. Cantrells team was unable to find a standard for homatropine, 1 of the 15 ingredients.
>
> Only aspirin and amphetamine fell below the 90% cutoff. Phenacetin was present at greater than the cutoff in Fiorinal (butalbital, aspirin, caffeine, and codeine phosphate, but was considerably less in Codempiral No. 3. The authors attribute the deficit in Codempiral to conditions that led to preferential degradation of phenacetin because of its amide group, compared with codeine, which is also in Codempiral but is more chemically stable.
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> Three compounds persisted in greater than 110% of the labeled contents: methaqualone (in Somnafac), meprobamate (in Bamadex), and pentobarbital (in Nebralin). These relatively high amounts may reflect degradation of other components of the compounded drug, the fact that the samples were produced before FDA-instituted quality control measures in 1963, or inconsistencies of the analytical techniques between when the drugs were compounded and now.
>
> The new findings are consistent with the efforts of the Shelf-Life Extension Program, which has extended the expiration dates on 88% of 122 drugs tested so far. Extensions range from 66 to 278 months.
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> "[O]ur results support the effectiveness of broadly extending expiration dates for many drugs," the researchers conclude. They also point out that extending shelf life can significantly lower costs to consumers.
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> Limitations of the analysis, the investigators write, include an inability to confirm the storage conditions of the drug samples, as well as imprecise dating of the samples.
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> The authors have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.
>
> Arch Intern Med. Published online October 8, 2012.
>
Posted by phillipa on October 9, 2012, at 23:04:00
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades » phillipa, posted by ChicagoKat on October 9, 2012, at 21:35:46
Kat yes I know that came up with the doxycycline. Ahh but got a bottle of unused minocycline. As for my arsenal. Guess what even got an original box of Ensam patches. Samples when new!! Phillipa
Posted by JONO_IN_ADELAIDE on October 9, 2012, at 23:23:04
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades » ChicagoKat, posted by phillipa on October 9, 2012, at 23:04:00
Someone was a horder!
My mother was a pharmacist, in the 1970's she started work in a new pharmacy and was amazed (and horrified) to find a big bottle of Distaval (thalidomide) in the store room, the owner was so tight he couldnt bring him self to dispose of it.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on October 10, 2012, at 0:10:36
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by JONO_IN_ADELAIDE on October 9, 2012, at 23:23:04
and, when my great grandmother died, we found a bottle of pills she had brought out from england with her in 1954 - it was so old that the pharmacy label was hand written in ink, not typed, and instead of the name of the drug, it was just marked "The Tablets, take one daily, Mrs Williams"
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 10, 2012, at 0:22:57
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades » ChicagoKat, posted by phillipa on October 9, 2012, at 23:04:00
> Kat yes I know that came up with the doxycycline. Ahh but got a bottle of unused minocycline. As for my arsenal. Guess what even got an original box of Ensam patches. Samples when new!! Phillipa
lol Phillipa! Even I don't have that in my vast collection!
Kat
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 10, 2012, at 0:26:21
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by JONO_IN_ADELAIDE on October 9, 2012, at 23:23:04
> Someone was a horder!
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> My mother was a pharmacist, in the 1970's she started work in a new pharmacy and was amazed (and horrified) to find a big bottle of Distaval (thalidomide) in the store room, the owner was so tight he couldnt bring him self to dispose of it.haha, I hope you are not calling ME the hoarder! But I am, I admit it.
That's cool that your Mom was a pharmacist...and I hope she talked the owner into throwing out that dang thalidomide, even if they do use it for leprosy now!
Kat
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 10, 2012, at 0:27:34
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by jono_in_adelaide on October 10, 2012, at 0:10:36
> and, when my great grandmother died, we found a bottle of pills she had brought out from england with her in 1954 - it was so old that the pharmacy label was hand written in ink, not typed, and instead of the name of the drug, it was just marked "The Tablets, take one daily, Mrs Williams"
WOW! 'The Tablets' A mystery med!
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on October 10, 2012, at 2:01:19
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades » jono_in_adelaide, posted by ChicagoKat on October 10, 2012, at 0:27:34
When mum first started work in Pharmacy in Australia (in 1966) she said most pharmacists were still labeling bottles as "The Tablets" or at best "The sleeping tablets" or "The tablets for pain" and the directions for use, actualy letting the patient know what they were taking was considered very cutting edge.
I guess it was a throwback to the days when medicine was mostly placebos and black magic
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on October 10, 2012, at 2:16:06
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by jono_in_adelaide on October 10, 2012, at 2:01:19
I wonder how they come up with the expirey date on drugs, is it a generic "2 years from date of manufacture" or is it a bit more scientific than that?
Posted by bennybenzo on October 10, 2012, at 3:40:04
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by jono_in_adelaide on October 10, 2012, at 2:16:06
When i was takeing 12mg of ativan,they wernt scripted 12mg . Thy were what i had saved over years of scripts some were 10 year old but still worked. They worked that well i went into mental hospital for 2 weeks nuked. It was one of my self medicating projects THAT IMPLODED
Posted by herpills on October 10, 2012, at 9:51:02
In reply to Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by phillipa on October 9, 2012, at 20:58:35
Seems like I've read stuff about this before, makes me wonder why everything says it expires in a year or two, I feel lots of people throw stuff away because of the label. When will they put the actual expiration date if its 10 years?? Would save a lot of $$$
Posted by schleprock on October 10, 2012, at 11:54:53
In reply to Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by phillipa on October 9, 2012, at 20:58:35
Premature expiration dates mean more money for drug companies.
Frankly, I don't see why pharmacies don't have a buy-back program for expired meds. Recycling meds would probably save them a little money.
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 10, 2012, at 12:35:25
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by jono_in_adelaide on October 10, 2012, at 2:01:19
> When mum first started work in Pharmacy in Australia (in 1966) she said most pharmacists were still labeling bottles as "The Tablets" or at best "The sleeping tablets" or "The tablets for pain" and the directions for use, actualy letting the patient know what they were taking was considered very cutting edge.
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> I guess it was a throwback to the days when medicine was mostly placebos and black magic
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That's fascinating. My Mom was a pharmacist at the same time (she actually worked at a psych hospital!) I'm gonna have to ask her if it was the same practice for her back then.When you think about it, things have really advanced. I mean it wasn't that long ago that doctors would still bleed patients in an effort to help them. Which of course only made matters worse. And I read that it wasn't until the very late 1800s that midwives would even wash their hands before helping to deliver a baby...and of course, at the time, doctors were not involved at all
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 10, 2012, at 12:39:07
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by jono_in_adelaide on October 10, 2012, at 2:16:06
> I wonder how they come up with the expirey date on drugs, is it a generic "2 years from date of manufacture" or is it a bit more scientific than that?
We were taught when I was working on my PharmD that drug companys performed very strict and scientific studies on the loss of potency of drugs, and would assign a length to expiration based on results, usually to the point where the drug had lost 10% of its potency.
But Phillipa's article makes me wonder if they are really as scientific and strict about it as we were taught.
Kat
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 10, 2012, at 12:40:52
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by bennybenzo on October 10, 2012, at 3:40:04
> When i was takeing 12mg of ativan,they wernt scripted 12mg . Thy were what i had saved over years of scripts some were 10 year old but still worked. They worked that well i went into mental hospital for 2 weeks nuked. It was one of my self medicating projects THAT IMPLODED
Damn, Benny, 12mg of Ativan?! No wonder you added benzo to your screen name :D
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 10, 2012, at 12:42:23
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by herpills on October 10, 2012, at 9:51:02
> Seems like I've read stuff about this before, makes me wonder why everything says it expires in a year or two, I feel lots of people throw stuff away because of the label. When will they put the actual expiration date if its 10 years?? Would save a lot of $$$
You may have struck on the answer; it may come down to $$$...specifically how much the drug company can make
Posted by phillipa on October 10, 2012, at 20:42:33
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades » herpills, posted by ChicagoKat on October 10, 2012, at 12:42:23
I also learned of this years ago as my Son's first wife's step-dad was a pharmacy tech. He used to give them huge bottles of meds. I'm still friends with him on facebook. We worked together in the same hospital. I like him he liked me so we remain friends over the net. Phillipa
Posted by bennybenzo on October 11, 2012, at 5:00:21
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by phillipa on October 10, 2012, at 20:42:33
C.kat, add a ltr of vodka to that 12mg ativan useually drank it 2 swill,s, an still functioning well sort of. My anxierty was so bad at least 4mg dose,s were used 3 times a day , the VODKA to knock me out in one when it got to tough , like drink glug, glug. --------------BANG in about 10 seconds flat.
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 11, 2012, at 12:14:05
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by bennybenzo on October 11, 2012, at 5:00:21
> C.kat, add a ltr of vodka to that 12mg ativan useually drank it 2 swill,s, an still functioning well sort of. My anxierty was so bad at least 4mg dose,s were used 3 times a day , the VODKA to knock me out in one when it got to tough , like drink glug, glug. --------------BANG in about 10 seconds flat.
Do you STILL do that, Benny? I hope not, you are playing with fire!!! You're on an MAOI now, aren't you? I hope it's Nardil, b/c it's a wonder drug, knocks my anxiety on its head with even the first dose
Kat
Posted by bennybenzo on October 11, 2012, at 12:23:51
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades » bennybenzo, posted by ChicagoKat on October 11, 2012, at 12:14:05
No i dont drink spirits now , ops for pancritis stopped that dead. I am on lexapro an lorazapam only benzo given in England , ps i dont count valium has 100mg has little affect on me.
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 11, 2012, at 13:27:33
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by bennybenzo on October 11, 2012, at 12:23:51
> No i dont drink spirits now , ops for pancritis stopped that dead. I am on lexapro an lorazapam only benzo given in England , ps i dont count valium has 100mg has little affect on me.
Glad to hear you don't drink anymore, given that you are on ativan...is that truly the only benzo that's rx'd in England? If it is, at least it's a good one. And pancreatitis???? You poor guy...I know that can be incredibly painful.
I don't drink anymore either. Used to binge drink like once every week or every other week. Strangely, developed a revulsion to drinking after ect...which is the only good thing ect did for me. But it is a good thing, especially since I loved beer, and I'm now on Nardil and can't drink beer the way I used to.
Where in England do you live. I'm a self-admitted anglophile. Have visited your country twice and loved it both times. Plus I read a lot of historical fiction set in your country.
Hope you are well,
Kat
Posted by bennybenzo on October 12, 2012, at 5:54:23
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades » bennybenzo, posted by ChicagoKat on October 11, 2012, at 13:27:33
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pictures+of+newstead+abbey&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ivF3UKOpM6qk0QXhz4HoCg&ved=0CCIQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=684 I live in Nottinghamshire , 5 MILES AWAY IS NEWSTEAD ABBEY home of the late LORD BYRON the most famouse poet.3 MILES is the Major Oak in sherwood forest the massive hollow oak tree hundreds of years old , that in folk law was were ROBIN HOOD held his mettings, i am surrounded by sherwood forest. all within 10 miles are HARDWICK HALL, THORSBY HALL. CLUMBER PARK , where clumber spaniels were breed. ect ect. My town his MANSFIELD NOTTS ,our town like many was cut out the forest hundreds of years ago, WE HAVE 20 PUBS, 8 NIGHTCLUBS for dance music ie hardcore dance. Modern towns surrounded by the best green patch work fields, an extensive woodland you could imagine. Yes it rains alot but thats what makes things green an its never to cold or to hot.
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 12, 2012, at 13:32:16
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades, posted by bennybenzo on October 12, 2012, at 5:54:23
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pictures+of+newstead+abbey&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ivF3UKOpM6qk0QXhz4HoCg&ved=0CCIQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=684 I live in Nottinghamshire , 5 MILES AWAY IS NEWSTEAD ABBEY home of the late LORD BYRON the most famouse poet.3 MILES is the Major Oak in sherwood forest the massive hollow oak tree hundreds of years old , that in folk law was were ROBIN HOOD held his mettings, i am surrounded by sherwood forest. all within 10 miles are HARDWICK HALL, THORSBY HALL. CLUMBER PARK , where clumber spaniels were breed. ect ect. My town his MANSFIELD NOTTS ,our town like many was cut out the forest hundreds of years ago, WE HAVE 20 PUBS, 8 NIGHTCLUBS for dance music ie hardcore dance. Modern towns surrounded by the best green patch work fields, an extensive woodland you could imagine. Yes it rains alot but thats what makes things green an its never to cold or to hot.
Benny, you have made me SOOOOO jealous!!!!! I wish I lived where you do. And btw, I love it when it rains, so that would be great. And never too cold or too hot??? I'd be in heaven!!! Where I live - in Chicago, bet you guessed that - it gets BITTERLY cold in the winter, and SOOOOO hot and humid in the summer you just don't want to leave the a/c in your house! So, to me at least, the summers are just as bad as the winters!
Enjoy your fabulous locale. I believe just living in such a place would do as much for my depression as meds do :D
My best,
Kat
Posted by bennybenzo on October 12, 2012, at 14:18:30
In reply to Re: Expired Meds Retain Potency For Decades » bennybenzo, posted by ChicagoKat on October 12, 2012, at 13:32:16
We have the same problems, HEROIN the biggest ,a massive influx of eastern uro migrants now because we jioned EU ,ect ect ,so its not all green fields . But yes weather would be to your likeing ,but its rained a bit to much this year so flooding in places.
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