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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by stewie on February 11, 2012, at 7:56:36
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by n_shrimpie on February 10, 2012, at 23:54:02
Posted by stewie on February 11, 2012, at 7:59:58
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia » n_shrimpie, posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 5:00:49
I see Scott's point too... one just never knows. I would never have known what akathisia felt like had I not stayed on those 5 mgs :-). I would always have wondered if I should have just sucked it up more...so you have options.
Yes... Devil and Deep Blue Sea options, it seems, sometimes!
> Try to give the higher dosage of Abilify a few more days. You might see the depression and anhedonia improve. Cognitive side effects often dissipate. Making a dosage adjustment is nothing more than an experiment to see how your unique physiology reacts to it. In the absence of acute akathisia, it might be worth the extra time so as to draw reliable conclusions.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 11, 2012, at 8:19:49
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia » n_shrimpie, posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 5:00:49
Hi Scott,
What do you think of the studies that I posted about above...
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120202/msgs/1009917.html
Thanks.
Posted by stewie on February 11, 2012, at 8:38:04
In reply to Cariprazine » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on February 11, 2012, at 8:19:49
Posted by stewie on February 11, 2012, at 8:48:35
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by n_shrimpie on February 10, 2012, at 23:54:02
Well, my long response did not register...
I will try to recap:
I had the same feeling on Nardil - except for during the inevitable 2pm 3 hour nap!I mentioned exercise and how I feel genuinely motivated to go to yoga or I know that if I force myself, I will be happy I did..
Exercise and meds, ideally work in tandem, I think.
Lamictal poops out on me, but can be revisited from time to time with an SSRI.
I would agree that perhaps the lower dose of abilify would be better, I said in the lost post... for me, the insomnia I am dealing with on Abilify causes me to be tired, which makes seeking anything but my bed out, (even though I don't sleep enough in it) rather difficult. That can be depressing.
And on boy - Abilify is one expensive drug, so I hear you - I am happy to be splitting the 2 mg pill.
I do wish you the best...
Diane> This ALL resonates.I've spent 90% of my life on my laptop or in bed, and that pattern is so ingrained and seems so normal that it's very difficult to change. When i was on the nardil, i would think i was joyless, but when i socialized I really was able to experience pleasure, but I'd have to FORCE myself to go do things, was always apathetic, but when i did, i could have fun. Nardil made me tired, so that also caused me to sleep more. And when i was first on the Lamictal, i actively sought out pleasurable experiences, which is of course the ideal. i couldn't believe that people got to feel like this every day instead of just going through the motions of life, but alas, it pooped out on me.
>
> I'm now up to 5mg on the abilify, and i've lost the motivation i had at 2mg and in the early 5mg stage. i still have insomnia, but i only feel motivated, wired and restless( which i dislike, but since it contributes to my functionality i tolerate it) for a few hours after i take it but then it subsides and isn't activating, simply gives me insomnia. i doubt that i can afford to remain on the 5mg, and it doesn't seem to be doing much for my mood so I'll probably go down to 2.5. My doctor said i seemed my better today, less confused and i did feel better cognitively this morning than i have in a while, but being atypical, my depression progresses as the day does, so i'm confused and spacey and experiencing complete anhedonia right now.but at least the mornings have improved. i'm really considering exercising in the morning in hopes that it will help my depression. sometimes i fear the depression has caused permanent brain damage,(especially since i've gone pretty much untreated over the past year, just on the lamictal but quite depressed) and i'll never retain my cognitive faculties and that terrifies me.
>
Posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 8:51:53
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by stewie on February 11, 2012, at 8:48:35
> Well, my long response did not register...
> I will try to recap:
> I had the same feeling on Nardil - except for during the inevitable 2pm 3 hour nap!
>
> I mentioned exercise and how I feel genuinely motivated to go to yoga or I know that if I force myself, I will be happy I did..
>
> Exercise and meds, ideally work in tandem, I think.
>
> Lamictal poops out on me, but can be revisited from time to time with an SSRI.
>
> I would agree that perhaps the lower dose of abilify would be better, I said in the lost post... for me, the insomnia I am dealing with on Abilify causes me to be tired, which makes seeking anything but my bed out, (even though I don't sleep enough in it) rather difficult. That can be depressing.
>
> And on boy - Abilify is one expensive drug, so I hear you - I am happy to be splitting the 2 mg pill.
>
> I do wish you the best...
> Diane
>
> > This ALL resonates.I've spent 90% of my life on my laptop or in bed, and that pattern is so ingrained and seems so normal that it's very difficult to change. When i was on the nardil, i would think i was joyless, but when i socialized I really was able to experience pleasure, but I'd have to FORCE myself to go do things, was always apathetic, but when i did, i could have fun. Nardil made me tired, so that also caused me to sleep more. And when i was first on the Lamictal, i actively sought out pleasurable experiences, which is of course the ideal. i couldn't believe that people got to feel like this every day instead of just going through the motions of life, but alas, it pooped out on me.
> >
> > I'm now up to 5mg on the abilify, and i've lost the motivation i had at 2mg and in the early 5mg stage. i still have insomnia, but i only feel motivated, wired and restless( which i dislike, but since it contributes to my functionality i tolerate it) for a few hours after i take it but then it subsides and isn't activating, simply gives me insomnia. i doubt that i can afford to remain on the 5mg, and it doesn't seem to be doing much for my mood so I'll probably go down to 2.5. My doctor said i seemed my better today, less confused and i did feel better cognitively this morning than i have in a while, but being atypical, my depression progresses as the day does, so i'm confused and spacey and experiencing complete anhedonia right now.but at least the mornings have improved. i'm really considering exercising in the morning in hopes that it will help my depression. sometimes i fear the depression has caused permanent brain damage,(especially since i've gone pretty much untreated over the past year, just on the lamictal but quite depressed) and i'll never retain my cognitive faculties and that terrifies me.
> >
>
> yes, the insomnia makes me tired, but the abilify makes me wired, which isn't a comfortable combo. sometimes i wonder if the cognitive issues are a function of my 400mg lamictal dosage, but everytime i try to reduce it i become more depressed and spacy. maybe it's just withdrawal and i should suffer through it to see if a lower dose eliminates the cognitive impairments.
Posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 9:53:07
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by stewie on February 11, 2012, at 8:48:35
> Lamictal poops out on me, but can be revisited from time to time with an SSRI.
Does Lamictal poop-out on you when it is combined with Abilify?
From what I have seen, the combination of Lamictal and Abilify can work well. My guess is that they act synergistically to increase activity in the limbic system.
I hope you find an optimum treatment.
- Scott
Posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 10:07:50
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia » stewie, posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 9:53:07
nothing has seemed to reactivate the lamictal yet, however, it does continue to act as a mood stabilizer and prevent me from severe downward spirals. Yet my memory/cognitive and anhedonia issues remain (i even had trouble syncing my ipod this morning!) and i feel like i'm not "present" if that makes any sense. however my word retrieval and writing skills have improved marginally. I've only been on 5mg abilify for a week so i suppose i need to give it more time. at one point, my prozac worked as the 20 mg was washing out of my system, so there does seem to be a therapeutic window. 2 weeks ago i went from 20mg to 10 mg, so maybe i'll reach the therapeutic window at 10mg, and if not, i'll probably reduce it more. As usual, i tend to feel best in the morning and deteriorate as the day progresses, which is consistent with my atypical depression. i can no longer sleep as an escape on the abilify so my daytime naps are a thing of the past, which i suppose is a good thing, but i miss the breaks from obsessing over my depression and overthinking my medication issues, and sleep is the only way to get any relief from it.
Posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 10:34:28
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 10:07:50
I suffer cognitive impairments when I increase the dosage of Lamictal above 200 mg.
- Scott
Posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 11:41:03
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia » n_shrimpie, posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 10:34:28
yes, you've mentioned that before. i must try to reduce it and suffer through the withdrawal period in order to test your theory, because i believe that my mood is bad simply because of my cognitive issues. i'm using 400 mg pills. is it too much to reduce it by 100 mg/day? What strategy did you use for withdrawal? on an unrelated note,do you use fish oil pills?
Posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 11:55:57
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 11:41:03
What is the half life of lamictal? how long should i give the dose reduction before deciding on a dosage?
Posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 12:16:18
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia » stewie, posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 9:53:07
Now i'm tired on the 5mg of abilify, have zero motivation, feel like it's not doing anything. i found the 2mg more activating. does that make sense?
Posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 13:23:26
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 11:41:03
> yes, you've mentioned that before. i must try to reduce it and suffer through the withdrawal period in order to test your theory, because i believe that my mood is bad simply because of my cognitive issues. i'm using 400 mg pills. is it too much to reduce it by 100 mg/day? What strategy did you use for withdrawal? on an unrelated note,do you use fish oil pills?
You could reduce the Lamictal by 50 mg every three or four days. I was able to tolerate that pace when I reduced from 450 mg. If you reduce too fast, it is very likely that you will experience a transient increase in depression.
For some odd reason, the fish oil preparations that I have tried made me feel worse. More recently, I tried Carlson's liquid. My guess is that DHA is the culprit. Omegabrite is pure EPA, and is sold as a treatment for depression. I would have no objections to trying it.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 13:36:51
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 12:16:18
> Now i'm tired on the 5mg of abilify, have zero motivation, feel like it's not doing anything. i found the 2mg more activating. does that make sense?
How many days have you been taking 5 mg for?
What was the reason for increasing the dosage? Remember, you have made a 150% increase in one step. It might take a few days to get used to.
It is not unheard of for people to experience a "therapeutic window" with drugs. Nortriptyline and amisulpride come to mind. It is possible to lose the therapeutic effect of a drug when increasing the dosage beyond a certain point.
- Scott
Posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 15:24:13
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia » n_shrimpie, posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 13:36:51
Is there an alternative to abilify that doesn't cause weight gain? If the 5mg or less doesn't work i can't raise it because i simply can't afford it, and i'm terrified of gaining weight, i feel badly enough about myself as it stands. What about Geodon? Is it prohibitively expensive and is weight gain a side effect? And why is my doctor opting to go the antipsychotic route when i'm not psychotic? Maybe i should try the TCA's. how long do they take to start working? i've run out of patience with prozac/nardil like drugs that take a month to start working.
Posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 17:02:32
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 15:24:13
Posted by stewie on February 11, 2012, at 20:19:04
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 10:07:50
Shrimpi-
I share your frustration and obsession- I really do. Word retrieval and cognitive issues are awful for me too. But I think things are worse when I am paralyzed by anxiety or depression.And boy - I have come to love my sleep, and giving so much of it up has been lousy! I guess I could choose to drop the abilify and do nothing, with no hope, but I am still trying, just as you are.
I'm kind of done with just taking pills recreationally sso that I can sleep all day. There really are things we can enjoy - even if other people have an easier time with moving from nothingness to enjoyment than we do.
Hang in there...
Diane
Posted by stewie on February 11, 2012, at 20:25:43
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia » stewie, posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 9:53:07
Scot, I honestly cannot answer that question. Perhaps I will bring it up to my Doc. He is rather open to trying just about anything.
I do have to be careful with too much stimulation, though... My anxiety level can get pretty out of control. It would be lovely to not need to check the clock every 6 hours to take more neurontin!I hope that you also find optimum treatment, and I thank you:-)
> Lamictal poops out on me, but can be revisited from time to time with an SSRI.
>
> Does Lamictal poop-out on you when it is combined with Abilify?
>
> From what I have seen, the combination of Lamictal and Abilify can work well. My guess is that they act synergistically to increase activity in the limbic system.
>
> I hope you find an optimum treatment.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on February 11, 2012, at 20:52:02
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by n_shrimpie on February 11, 2012, at 15:24:13
> Is there an alternative to abilify that doesn't cause weight gain?
Perhaps Geodon (ziprasidone), which is another antipsychotic with antidepressant properties.
> If the 5mg or less doesn't work i can't raise it because i simply can't afford it
Hmm. I'm sorry to hear that. I wish things were different.
> and i'm terrified of gaining weight, i feel badly enough about myself as it stands. What about Geodon?
Good guess!
> Is it prohibitively expensive
Probably. All of the new drugs are unconscionably expensive.
> and is weight gain a side effect?
Geodon is probably the only antipsychotic that does not produce weight gain.
> And why is my doctor opting to go the antipsychotic route when i'm not psychotic?
I don't know. Some of these drugs act to help antidepressants work better.
> Maybe i should try the TCA's
Desipramine usually does not produce weight gain, but can be other side effects. Nortriptyline has milder side effects, but can produce weight gain.
> how long do they take to start working?
Antisychotics can begin to work within a week.
> i've run out of patience with prozac/nardil like drugs that take a month to start working.
I wish I had a better answer for the both of us.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 12, 2012, at 6:31:11
In reply to Cariprazine » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on February 11, 2012, at 8:19:49
> Hi Scott,
>
> What do you think of the studies that I posted about above...
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120202/msgs/1009917.html
I think the most important feature of cariprazine is that it is much more potent as a partial agonist at dopamine D3 receptors than at D2 receptors (higher D3/D2 ratio). D3 is the receptor of pleasure and reward, and is found in the following regions of the brain:- thalamic paraventricular nucleus
- nucleus accumbans
- ventral tegmental areaWithout D3 receptors, cocaine would have no pleasurable effect. As a matter of fact, D3 partial agonists can act as a sort of muffler, thereby reducing cocaine's effect. It occurs to me that cariprazine might help with cocaine addiction in much the same way as buprenorphine, a mu opioid receptor partial agonist, does with opioid addiction. Just a thought...
Thanks for making me learn stuff.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by n_shrimpie on February 12, 2012, at 9:23:45
In reply to Re: Cariprazine » ed_uk2010, posted by SLS on February 12, 2012, at 6:31:11
Scott how much Carlson fish oil do you take, and does it help?
Posted by SLS on February 12, 2012, at 9:48:33
In reply to Re: Cariprazine, posted by n_shrimpie on February 12, 2012, at 9:23:45
> Scott how much Carlson fish oil do you take, and does it help?
Carlson's fish oil makes me feel worse. I am not unique in this regard, though. My guess is that I am reacting negatively to the DHA component of the mixture. Pure DHA generally makes depression worse. Pure EPA generally makes depression better. If I were going to revisit fish oil, I would use Omegabrite exclusively.
Check out:
- Scott
Posted by n_shrimpie on February 12, 2012, at 9:56:17
In reply to Re: Cariprazine » n_shrimpie, posted by SLS on February 12, 2012, at 9:48:33
Scott have you ever tried Enada (NAHD)? i've read several accounts of people going into remission on it. I'm considering it, and the fish oil.
Posted by bleauberry on February 12, 2012, at 10:07:20
In reply to Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by n_shrimpie on February 8, 2012, at 20:02:30
I have seen people report here of their experiences with abilify. Some of them did get a positive effect that looks like anti-anhedonia. Others report emotional numbness and flatness. I think it depends on the person's unique biology, the actual underlying cause of the psych symptoms (what disease or toxin is doing it?) and the size of the dose. Personally I would not think of abilify as an anti-anhedonia med. But anything is possible.
Treating anhedonia is a tough one I think. We tend to think of it as a dopamine thing, but my experience showed me norepinephrine plays a big role, maybe even more important than dopamine. But it's a concert....all things need to working in a balanced synergy, it's not just this or that. So it makes it hard to nail anhedonia.
My best anhedonia results came from savella, adrafanil, ritalin, vicodin, amisullpride. SSRI+TCA combos I think are worthy also, but doses need some experimentation for proper balance and the doses need to stay as low as possible.
You noticed more activation on abilify at lower doses and that is consistent with the drug's usual behavior. It is generally more activating at lower doses and more numbing at higher doses.
Posted by SLS on February 12, 2012, at 10:26:36
In reply to Re: Does abilify work for anhedonia, posted by bleauberry on February 12, 2012, at 10:07:20
> You noticed more activation on abilify at lower doses and that is consistent with the drug's usual behavior. It is generally more activating at lower doses and more numbing at higher doses.
I am beginning to see a trend for people with unipolar depression to be intolerant of dosages of Abilify above 5.0 mg/day. Anxiety, insomnia, and cognitive impairments are limiting side effects.I am bipolar IV. Personally, I do best at 10 mg/day, but I can tolerate 20 mg/day as well. I do find 20 mg to be somewhat numbing, and this is the reason why I reduced the dosage to 10 mg.
I do NOT find lower dosages of Abilify to be more activating than higher dosages. This might be a consequence of my having bipolar disorder rather than unipolar disorder.
- Scott
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