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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 62. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by morgan miller on February 23, 2011, at 16:01:27
I'm thinking this may be best suited for the Psychology board, and if it is and the Dr. Bob or whomever else thinks so, they will move it over there. Sorry if anyone is annoyed by this topic showing up here.
This article is about a new research study showing the brain's reaction of a depressed mother to a baby crying. It provides new insight on how depressed mother's might impact the development of their child's brain.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110222140556.htm
FB, or any other mother on this site that thinks they were depressed during crucial years of their child's development, I don't want this to make you feel bad! Sorry if it does!
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on February 23, 2011, at 20:30:02
In reply to New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies, posted by morgan miller on February 23, 2011, at 16:01:27
I'm realizing that I probably should not have posted this as I don't think it's going to be helpful to anyone. It could raise awareness as to some of the elements in our environment at very early stages in life that could negatively impact our development and further impact development of mental illness. I hope this is something the world's population as a whole becomes more aware of.
Posted by Phillipa on February 23, 2011, at 20:41:24
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies, posted by morgan miller on February 23, 2011, at 20:30:02
Morgan I'm glad you posted this here. Does this mean that when constant crying drives you nuts but you hold the baby continuously to stop the crying you are or are not depressed? Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on February 24, 2011, at 14:54:44
In reply to New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies, posted by morgan miller on February 23, 2011, at 16:01:27
It's okay with me, Morgan. What key point I take from this study is that depressed moms may not act incredibly different from other moms; that is baby cries, mom comforts baby. Depressed moms are not letting their child cry it out in the dark; in fact, depressed moms are doing the best they can; they are continuing to commit toward positive action in spite of blunting.
Every single depressed mother or father knows better than the back of their hand that they are different from other parents, that they are less effective and spontaneous, and that their child will somehow be affected.
Was your mom depressed as you were growing up? I ask because of your returning interest in the topic.
Posted by Twinleaf on February 24, 2011, at 17:52:28
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies » morgan miller, posted by Phillipa on February 23, 2011, at 20:41:24
Even though it can be personally very painful for many of us to consider the role played by maternal depression - both in ourselves and in our own mothers - I think it's great you posted the article here. It is such a vital area, and important to everyone raising children and everyone dealing with the consequences of maternal deprivation.
What really stood out to me was that the reward centers of the brains of depressed mothers did not light up in a normal way when they heard a baby crying. Without that, there's no
way for them to be really want to be with their babies. Psychotherapy would seem to be the best way to restore this interpersonal reward system. Medications probably can't affect it very much, can they?Being unable to care for a baby the way one would like must be one of the most painful things one can endure . All new knowledge is very welcome.
Posted by floatingbridge on February 24, 2011, at 19:06:19
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Moms, posted by Twinleaf on February 24, 2011, at 17:52:28
- I think it's great you posted the article here. It is such a vital area, and important to everyone raising children and everyone dealing with the consequences of maternal deprivation.Yes. I agree, twinleaf. Morgan, actually I was in the middle (really) of a major panic attack when I wrote. It struck me this morning like that ton of bricks that I
am a 'nice', good, moral person who's 'borderline'. It is incredibly painful where ever it arose from (my personal sensitivity + neglect, abuse, and negative reinforcement aka verbal abuse.).Morgan, the question about your family of origin; well, I apologize for it. That was
written in anger and also cultural anger. Over and over again, mothers with depression are singled out as being so horribly faulty that we almost purposefully act in ways that harm our vulnerable, wonderful children. No matter what. Like being around a toxic waste dump (lovely image). That depressed moms are toxic to the tribe. I just say enough of that. Like yeah, so what can be done? As a depressed parent (hey, any studies about depressed (not abusive) dads?). So my question was angry and inappropriate. I apologize completely.twinleaf, you are spot on. Day to day, I carry a boatload of guilt, fear, and concern for my son. What a non depressed parent does w/o effort is very difficult for the depressed parent. As that article points out, and what can chill a parent (we already know this) is that there is that bond deeper than actions like: baby cries, mom comforts it. That reward center isn't sparking: the child feels this deeply no matter what the parent does.
Morgan, you apologized for posting it. Don't. Please. And I hope we are still friends (witness sense of abandonment at work).
Twinleaf, you weren't a depressed parent? If so, you did not endure a
miniature, internal hell.I envy non-depressed parents. They give their child something all the breastfeeding cannot compensate for; I know that in my bones; today has been very difficult. It's my coming out day to
myself. Bedrock. Horrifying. But that is what Borderline personality is about
(time for a new name). Horrifying pain and fear.>
> What really stood out to me was that
the reward centers of the brains of depressed mothers did not light up in a
normal way when they heard a baby crying. Without that, there's no
> way for them to be really want to be with their babies.However, I did want more than anything to be with my baby. I still do. In fact, some tie-cutting and growing up has been happening that is reaaally difficult.
I'd still like to carry him around :) The
article mentioned blunting--a dulling, but not necessarily an extinguishing. (I am a little sensitive, so excuse the close reading.)My own experience was ambivalence based (I thought) on fear in part, and depression (just wanting to curl away
from life and die). So yes, there
was too much going on. And no clearcut
biological imperative to naturally
(effortlessly) respond. But how I wanted to; and respond through that gauzy cloud
of depression I did--with effort. To this day, I respond to certain cries when in public. Like arrows. I joked a few months agowith one mom. Neither of us have nursed for at least a few years--yet both of us felt 'our milk let down' to some kid's crying in public.>Psychotherapy would seem to be the best way to restore this interpersonal
reward system.Yes! I'm still hoping.
>Medications probably can't affect it
very much, can they?Not yet. But today my pdoc, whom I called s.o.s sent an interesting link about a particular hormone circulating in women suffering from ptsd. I'll find. Hope for future, novel approaches. I
mean, unless an illness has a firm biological basis, imo, meds are helpers,
be they crutches or prosthetics.
> Being unable to care for a baby the way one would like must be one of the
most painful things one can endure.Yes. For me, urgent and unbelievable. Unknownable unless experienced.
>All new knowledge is very welcome.:) Hallelujah.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on February 24, 2011, at 19:13:11
In reply to New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies, posted by morgan miller on February 23, 2011, at 16:01:27
http://consumer.healthday.com/article.asp?AID=650182
Hope it works....
Posted by floatingbridge on February 24, 2011, at 19:19:05
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Moms, posted by Twinleaf on February 24, 2011, at 17:52:28
- I think it's great you posted the article here. It is such a vital area, and important to everyone raising children and everyone dealing with the consequences of maternal deprivation.Yes. I agree, twinleaf. Morgan, actually I was in the middle (really) of a major panic attack when I wrote. It struck me this morning like that ton of bricks that I
am a 'nice', good, moral person who's 'borderline'. It is incredibly painful where ever it arose from (my personal sensitivity + neglect, abuse, and negative reinforcement aka verbal abuse.).Morgan, the question about your family of origin; well, I apologize for it. That was
written in anger and also cultural anger. Over and over again, mothers with depression are singled out as being so horribly faulty that we almost purposefully act in ways that harm our vulnerable, wonderful children. No matter what. Like being around a toxic waste dump (lovely image). That depressed moms are toxic to the tribe. I just say enough of that. Like yeah, so what can be done? As a depressed parent (hey, any studies about depressed (not abusive) dads?). So my question was angry and inappropriate. I apologize completely.twinleaf, you are spot on. Day to day, I carry a boatload of guilt, fear, and concern for my son. What a non depressed parent does w/o effort is very difficult for the depressed parent. As that article points out, and what can chill a parent (we already know this) is that there is that bond deeper than actions like: baby cries, mom comforts it. That reward center isn't sparking: the child feels this deeply no matter what the parent does.
Morgan, you apologized for posting it. Don't. Please. And I hope we are still friends (witness sense of abandonment at work).
Twinleaf, you weren't a depressed parent? If so, you did not endure a
miniature, internal hell.I envy non-depressed parents. They give their child something all the breastfeeding cannot compensate for; I know that in my bones; today has been very difficult. It's my coming out day to
myself. Bedrock. Horrifying. But that is what Borderline personality is about
(time for a new name). Horrifying pain and fear.>
> What really stood out to me was that
the reward centers of the brains of depressed mothers did not light up in a
normal way when they heard a baby crying. Without that, there's no
> way for them to be really want to be with their babies.However, I did want more than anything to be with my baby. I still do. In fact, some tie-cutting and growing up has been happening that is reaaally difficult.
I'd still like to carry him around :) The
article mentioned blunting--a dulling, but not necessarily an extinguishing. (I am a little sensitive, so excuse the close reading.)My own experience was ambivalence based (I thought) on fear in part, and depression (just wanting to curl away
from life and die). So yes, there
was too much going on. And no clearcut
biological imperative to naturally
(effortlessly) respond. But how I wanted to; and respond through that gauzy cloud
of depression I did--with effort. To this day, I respond to certain cries when in public. Like arrows. I joked a few months agowith one mom. Neither of us have nursed for at least a few years--yet both of us felt 'our milk let down' to some kid's crying in public.>Psychotherapy would seem to be the best way to restore this interpersonal
reward system.Yes! I'm still hoping.
>Medications probably can't affect it
very much, can they?Not yet. But today my pdoc, whom I called s.o.s sent an interesting link about a particular hormone circulating in women suffering from ptsd. I'll find. Hope for future, novel approaches. I
mean, unless an illness has a firm biological basis, imo, meds are helpers,
be they crutches or prosthetics.
> Being unable to care for a baby the way one would like must be one of the
most painful things one can endure.Yes. For me, urgent and unbelievable. Unknownable unless experienced.
>All new knowledge is very welcome.:) Hallelujah.
fb
Posted by Phillipa on February 24, 2011, at 19:52:02
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Moms, posted by floatingbridge on February 24, 2011, at 19:19:05
FB what is this about borderline? That's new isn't it? I was depressed when third born as she cried 24 hours a day and had to be held this whole time which was done. I did the day shift, husband at time did night shift. She projectile vomited each feeding on the floor. When from breast to goat's milk with lots of others inbetween. So she received more than first two who slept through night age two weeks. Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on February 24, 2011, at 22:58:21
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies » morgan miller, posted by floatingbridge on February 24, 2011, at 14:54:44
Hey FB, my mother definitely had some underlying depression, but her issues mostly manifested in being distant emotionally. She most definitely had a difficult time maintaining a soft nurturing connection.
The article states that depressed mothers did not have the same response. Their response was not inflammatory but it was lacking in attentiveness or motivation. This is what I got from the study.
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on February 24, 2011, at 23:01:34
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies, posted by morgan miller on February 24, 2011, at 22:58:21
I know depressed mothers do the best they can and I have the utmost respect for them in their efforts. The issue needs to be addressed though so that we have even more of a reason or sense of urgency to treat and prevent depression in order to reduce the chances of depression and other mental illness taking a strong grip on the children of mother's prone to depression. That was very wordy I know, I hope got my point.
Posted by morgan miller on February 24, 2011, at 23:17:44
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Moms, posted by floatingbridge on February 24, 2011, at 19:06:19
Hey FB, I understand, we're good : ) I didn't take that personally, but I did sense some frustration on your part. Sorry, I was afraid you might not respond well to this. I probably should not have posted it at all out of being more sensitive to you and other mothers here. Is there a better place to post studies like this? The Psychology board? I wonder if Dr. Bob would be open to making a board called Mentall Illness Research/Study/Causes, or something like that.
I just think that the more it becomes apparent to the rest of the world how much a mother's connection with their child plays a major role in development and possibly the development of mental illness, both, the more sense of urgency there will be to take further steps to better treat depression, and, the better chance there will be of reducing the likelihood of mental illness like depression developing into a major problem throughout childhood, adolescence, and adulthood. Sheesh, what's up with the long winded comma filled sentences? : )
Twinleaf, I do think medication has the potential to transform some into a state where pleasure centers are more reactive, positive emotional states are heightened, and capacity for empathy and compassion are enhanced. When I fell good on an antidepressant, I feel more connected with people, I'm able to cry for people much much easier, I'm able to cry for myself much much easier, and I both desire physical contact more and feel more pleasure from it.
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on February 24, 2011, at 23:18:14
In reply to link on ptsd hormone elevation in women, posted by floatingbridge on February 24, 2011, at 19:13:11
> http://consumer.healthday.com/article.asp?AID=650182
>
> Hope it works....I hope so too!
Posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 1:18:24
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Moms, posted by morgan miller on February 24, 2011, at 23:17:44
Morgan, it's really fine with me that you posted this. We don't need to tip-toe on the board. I reacted, but that's okay, right? Part of a dialogue process. I got personal with my question, and I apologized. This board, I hope, can hold this and other conversations about problematic stuff. I imagine many of us that read or post on PB have experienced some form of misery or dysfunction.
I really was having a DAY. There is so much going on in my life; I really was having a major episode of psychic pain when I read the article. Weeks and months have been coming to a sort of arrival at bedrock self-honesty. Maybe emotional sobriety. Right now, I don't know 'what' condition(s) I 'have'. Depression, personality disorder. I need to find what works, and in the process, I've become more blunt.
I'm rambling. Peace, Morgan. You're a-o.k. The article and the topic are a-o.k.
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2011, at 14:18:25
In reply to New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies, posted by morgan miller on February 23, 2011, at 16:01:27
What do you think of the Ferber method?
Posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 15:44:03
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2011, at 14:18:25
Dinah, is your question for Morgan? I'd love to hear responses--yours and others. We did not 'Ferberize'. The pressure to do so was formidable.
fb
(Just saw that I double posted :( apologies.)
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2011, at 16:37:28
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies » Dinah, posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 15:44:03
Anyone can answer!
I didn't either. I ask because a perfectly "healthy" mother strongly suggested it to me as the best thing that could happen to parenthood. While I, perhaps sensitized by a history of depression and with my own sensitivity to abandonment, rejected the idea of leaving a baby to cry until the baby gives up on the idea of crying to gain attention.
People in clinical depression likely have sluggish reward centers in general. I don't know that this causes any more ill to a baby than any other sort of emotional misattunement.
It seems hard to me to believe that an experience as common as postpartum depression would have persisted in an evolutionary sense if it was an unmitigated negative and harmful experience for offspring. The general thought is that it brought community support for the mother. But perhaps it also narrows the mother's focus to the smaller world of mother and child, and away from the world at large and its distractions. I'm not of course saying it's a good thing. It's nothing I would wish on anyone, having experienced it myself.
Posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 18:24:48
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies » floatingbridge, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2011, at 16:37:28
> Anyone can answer!
:)
> rejected the idea of leaving a baby to cry until the baby gives up on the idea of crying to gain attention.
Yes. Me too. A newly graduated psychiatrist friend coined Ferberize as
she struggled w/ implementation. She opted for Ferber for convenience (not a trivial decision) because she was starting work.>
> It seems hard to me to believe that an experience as common as postpartum depression would have persisted in an evolutionary sense if it was an unmitigated negative and harmful experience for offspring. The general thought is that it brought community support for the mother. But perhaps it
also narrows the mother's focus to the smaller world of mother and child, and away from the world at large and its distractions. I'm not of course saying it's
a good thing. It's nothing I would wish on anyone, having experienced it myself.Interesting. A very self-actualuzed (imo)
friend described being raised by her depressed mom as 'cozy'. My own early experience was like being cocooned w/
my son. I worry about the effects of depression in my case more from a social modeling perspective (if that is the right word) as isolating for him--he's a fair part extrovert.However, depression wasn't deep enough to keep me from, ummm, you know, like smiling (just maybe less frequently and truly joyously).
And here we come back to reward centers lighting up. Truly joyous. Quietly joyous. I hate to think of my son missing that (quite foreign to me) early experience.
How many paths diverge before a single person? As the neurons proliferate and
are pruned....fb
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2011, at 18:44:59
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies » Dinah, posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 18:24:48
I have always regretted that my son missed out on the spontaneity that some mothers show. But I have never been spontaneous, even when not depressed. I haven't the gift of spontaneity and I haven't the gift of joy.
I'd like to see my son exhibiting joy. But I'm not sure he has that gift either.
Your son may be more extroverted than you are. But if you accept his friends and encourage him to enter into social engagements, I think you'll do fine. It's not a bad thing for kids to recognize that not everyone is the same. As long as your encourage your son to be the best him he can be, you'll be modeling acceptance and love.
Posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 19:11:06
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Moms » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on February 24, 2011, at 19:52:02
Phillipa, I have a flair for drama :)
For reals (as my son would say), o.k. So I don't deal with full blown borderline. The talk is that borderline (an awful misnomer/carry over) is on a spectrum (the latest model for describing everything). If I overlay the diagnostic chart for c-ptsd on borderline, there is a very near correlation as I see it. Am I
missing something really significant? So bad c-ptsd meets borderline?People don't believe how miserable I feel because, as my pdoc says, I 'present' so well. One of the big yucky things about aging, is that 'old' people (I like to say elderly) can be so disrespected and disenfranchised in United States' culture
that a very well-adjusted elderly woman could be suspect ("crazy old coot") just for speaking her mind. Like being old is on par with bad hygiene.Aaaanyways, let's say I'm used to not being believed until someone (outside my family) in a rare sees me full-on upset. In my family of origin, I always sucked it up, patched family quarrels, played good daughter, etc.
I don't think borderline is far from the mark. A more accurate diagnosis is helpful--I just want my symptoms addressed, get the right therapy and
meds. Borderline implies intense suffering, a bereft and empty sense of identity, experiencing the self broken beyond repair. Many conditions create these feelings, however in borderline (and c-ptsd), these feeling persist.Many folks w/ borderline or borderline
features do not act out. The poster children for BPD are absolutely raging, self-serving before every loved one, abusive, sadistic, deny all culpability in a relationship, and basically f*ck up everything around them.I had a boss once who sexually molested all the waitresses on their paydays. He was also a gangster, rapist, perhaps murderer. Was he borderline? Maybe he was. (You know, a Sopranos-type guy.) Btw, I never finished the Sopranos. Was Tony's problem ever revealed?
Is the big difference a total lack of self-reflection?
Thanks for being surprised, Phillipa :)
> FB what is this about borderline? That's new isn't it? I was depressed when third born as she cried 24 hours a day and had to be held this whole time which was done. I did the day shift, husband at time did night shift. She projectile vomited each feeding on the floor. When from breast to goat's milk with lots of others inbetween. So she received more than first two who slept through night age two weeks. Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 19:13:03
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies » floatingbridge, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2011, at 18:44:59
Dinah, you're a gem :)
Thanks.
Posted by emmanuel98 on February 25, 2011, at 19:23:49
In reply to Re: New research on Depressed Mom's and their babies, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2011, at 14:18:25
My daughter never fell asleep easily and woke constnanly until I put her in our bed at 6 months. I tried Ferber, but it didn't work. Every time I came into her room to reassure her (as Ferber suggests) she cried harder. She cried all night, every night for a week until I gave it up because I was falling asleep on my feet during the day. She needed physical contact. Whe she started crawling at 7 months, I got rid of her crib, put her to sleep on a futon on the floor. My husband and I got a futon on our floor and she would wake and crawl into our bed, attach herself to my breast and everyone slept well. She continued coming into our bed late at night until she was nine years old. I don't think sleeping alone is normal for small children. I read this book by Penelope something and she found that almost all US mothers said their child slept alone, but when questioned more closely, 50% said their child had slept with them the night before.
Posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 20:25:43
In reply to Ferber, posted by emmanuel98 on February 25, 2011, at 19:23:49
I could kiss you :). Besides that, somehow I did not imagine you are a mom. I don't know why....
Our son just started wanting to sleep in his own bed. He's newly seven. He slips into 'our' bed every night. I'm glad both to have the bed to myself if hubby works late and cuddle with him, too.
You're not in the States, are you? (Our 'euro-rep', eurorep is on hiatus.) Many cultures have a family bed. In the States, it's considered to be somehow harmful. A NYT article last year or prior found a similar if not higher number of unreported co-sleeping.
Then there is the issue of breastfeeding past a year....
Posted by Phillipa on February 25, 2011, at 20:59:02
In reply to on the borderline » Phillipa, posted by floatingbridge on February 25, 2011, at 19:11:06
FB sounds like that boss was more a psychopath than borderline but just an opinion. The Borderlines I cared for split staff and some did try to cause trouble but some were extremly complaint. I must do my searching and see difference between c ptsd and borderline. Just a question has bipolar been brought up before? Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2011, at 21:06:28
In reply to Ferber, posted by emmanuel98 on February 25, 2011, at 19:23:49
My son liked to be held when he was an infant. All the time. My mother could get him to sleep and lift him into his crib without waking him. No one else could manage that on a regular basis. Snugglies were a lifesaver for us.
He often slept with us, or one of us slept on the rocker in his room, until he was maybe two years old. We got him a racing car bed, and with that enticement he willingly slept in his own bed. We let him lead us in setting up a bedtime ritual that made him feel safe and secure in sleeping on his room, although one of us usually read to him and sat with him till he fell asleep for a while after the transition.
I could certainly understand his desire to feel safe and held.
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