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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jjjaspar on December 12, 2010, at 10:02:11
A family member with uncontrollable bipolar for years had a doctor raise her thyroid level which did wonders for her bipolar. Turns out this has been in the psychiatric textbooks for over 35 years - that some people with psych symptoms need their thyroid levels in a more optimal range in the upper third.
It's like different doctors are living on different planets. At least they approached it like it's not some emotional problem she was having, which it is NOT, of course. Ha ha, good title for a book "It's not Mental" or "It's Just Illness."
Anyway, we feel pretty frustrated it took so long for someone to prescribe a higher dose, which is what helped stabilizing her. He also switched her brand. Before she was just on a T4 (levoxyl) and she was switched to one that has the other types in it as well.
Posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2010, at 11:12:04
In reply to Thyroid, posted by jjjaspar on December 12, 2010, at 10:02:11
How wonderful. So she's on the combo T4 & T3? And when you say upper range are you saying optimal which the national endocrinologists say is between l-2? Mine wants me there but seems I did better when it was a higher number. Only thing seems higher number can cause problems too. Thyroid so confusing. What's important is She if better. Phillipa
Posted by Maxime on December 19, 2010, at 22:45:48
In reply to Thyroid, posted by jjjaspar on December 12, 2010, at 10:02:11
Yes, I am lucky. My endo allows me to have my TSH closer to the hyper end of the spectrum. I take T3 and T4.
Posted by Phillipa on December 20, 2010, at 19:32:57
In reply to Thyroid, posted by jjjaspar on December 12, 2010, at 10:02:11
Saw my endo today for six month check. He was thrilled that my TSH was l.5, and T3 1.6 I think forgot copies. But seems the synthroid is doing a great job. He is willing to let me take any form of thyroid I want but decided not to change as dose optimal for me. So now don't have to see him for 9 months and at the time will retest cortisol levels as he said that to supplement them would cause adrenals to malfunction and not produce on own. I was asking about adrenal fatigue hense the discussion. Appointments are an hour and a half since only every six months now 9 months, but still labs in six months. So a good day. Something is finally working right it seems. He also has no problem with bioidentical hormones said risk in all meds. Just have to choose which risk is less stressful to me and go with it. Hoping throid is raised if it seems to help. Phillipa
Posted by jjjaspar on December 26, 2010, at 14:24:30
In reply to Re: Thyroid » jjjaspar, posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2010, at 11:12:04
> How wonderful. So she's on the combo T4 & T3? And when you say upper range are you saying optimal . . . Only thing seems higher number can cause problems too. Thyroid so confusing. What's important is She if better. Phillipa
Just as the lower number seems OK for some people, upper levels are needed for others, especially if they are exhibiting hypothyroid signs.
By upper range, I am NOT referring to TSH which is NOT an actual thyroid hormone (it is from the pituitary). I am referring to the actual free T3 and free T4 levels. The family member takes both T3 and T4 in the form of dessicated thyroid - Armour brand.
Posted by jjjaspar on December 26, 2010, at 14:33:04
In reply to Re: Thyroid » jjjaspar, posted by Maxime on December 19, 2010, at 22:45:48
> Yes, I am lucky. My endo allows me to have my TSH closer to the hyper end of the spectrum. I take T3 and T4.
In the case of this family member, TSH is irrelevant. It is not a thyroid hormone, and not all problems with thyroid hormone is due to a problem in the thyroid gland itself. This write-up about articles by Dr. Thomas Geracioti, M.D. may clarify:
http://www.bpkids.org/learn/library/hypothyroidism-is-it-contributing-to-your-childs-symptomsThat same author actually has a book . LOL! "It's Not Mental" :-D see here: http://www.itsnotmental.com
Posted by jjjaspar on December 26, 2010, at 14:37:07
In reply to Re: Thyroid » jjjaspar, posted by Phillipa on December 20, 2010, at 19:32:57
> Saw my endo today for six month check. He was thrilled that my TSH was l.5, and T3 1.6 I think forgot copies. But seems the synthroid is doing a great job. He is willing to let me take any form of thyroid I want but decided not to change as dose optimal for me. So now don't have to see him for 9 months and at the time will retest cortisol levels as he said that to supplement them would cause adrenals to malfunction and not produce on own. I was asking about adrenal fatigue . . . Phillipa
Great Phillipa! Many doctors do not even recognize adrenal fatigue. Our family investigated that possibility. One family member with psychiatric symptoms did have low cortisol levels. It corrected itself perhaps due to general healing - better sleep, better thyroid levels, and dietary changes after food sensitivities were found.
Posted by Phillipa on December 26, 2010, at 19:13:08
In reply to Re: Thyroid, posted by jjjaspar on December 26, 2010, at 14:37:07
Armour is reported to be extremly good for thyroid. I must read you links now. Phillipa. Yes I do know of the pituitary have microadenoma on it via MRI. I have the autoimmune antibodies.
Posted by Phillipa on December 26, 2010, at 19:23:53
In reply to Re: Thyroid, posted by jjjaspar on December 26, 2010, at 14:37:07
Had no idea you were discussing a child. Throws a different light so to speak on things. May you have the best of luck in treating is it your child? Phillipa
Posted by jjjaspar on December 27, 2010, at 8:57:45
In reply to Re: Thyroid » jjjaspar, posted by Phillipa on December 26, 2010, at 19:23:53
> Had no idea you were discussing a child. Throws a different light so to speak on things. May you have the best of luck in treating is it your child? Phillipa
The person is no longer a child. In fact all the physical issues were not discovered until she was nearly an adult, and much was not corrected until after she was an adult. She is doing well. Not perfectly, of course - there are things that are not completely fixable, but she is doing well. It unbelievably took 4 years to get a doctor that knew how to correct just her thyroid level! Hers is hypothalamic. Her GP could not find the "answer" in his medical textbooks. They mention it but that's all. It is said to be "rare" yet how can they know that if they don't test for it, yet they also say it is more common to have hypothalamic involvement in cases where there are mental illness diagnoses. Therefore, shouldn't they always be testing all the thyroid hormones in those cases?
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2010, at 19:47:34
In reply to Re: Thyroid, posted by jjjaspar on December 27, 2010, at 8:57:45
This term will have to google. As I don't know til do? Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2010, at 19:56:15
In reply to Re: Thyroid, posted by jjjaspar on December 27, 2010, at 8:57:45
Did the google and it seems that there are so many causes and complications. Very complicated condition. Not just the thyroid. I do have a link. Not sure if will work and turn blue. But you could copy it down and then google it? I'm sorry sounds so rough. Phillipa
Posted by jjjaspar on December 28, 2010, at 11:45:16
In reply to Re: Thyroid » jjjaspar, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2010, at 19:56:15
> Did the google and it seems that there are so many causes and complications. Very complicated condition. Not just the thyroid. . . .
>
> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001202.htmIn some people, the only problem is thyroid but then it is called hypothalamic-pituitary axis hypothyroidism or "central hypothyroidism" It is also referred to as "tertiary hypothyroidism." Secondary is from the pituitary and primary is from the thyroid gland itself.
Family member has other complications, but seems to be healing. Not everything is fixable, but we make lemonade out of the lemons, right?
Posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2010, at 19:51:09
In reply to Re: Thyroid, posted by jjjaspar on December 28, 2010, at 11:45:16
Yes as a doc once said to me with post lyme's disease we fix the rements left behind like a gun shot wound the damage. Hope your family member is doing much better. yes we accept what we can't change and look on the bright side. Phillipa
Posted by MissThang on January 6, 2011, at 7:48:55
In reply to Re: Thyroid » jjjaspar, posted by Phillipa on December 26, 2010, at 19:13:08
My dr. (who specializes in bioidentical hormone replacement) has the opposite opinion on adrenal fatigue. He says most of the people he treats for this disorder go on low dose of bioidentical hydrocortisone for 6 months or so to give the adrenals time to heal and after that time, you can withdraw the added hormone and the adrenals will function better. Of course, it helps if the patient actually takes the time and effort to do the things that will help the adrenals heal, such as supplements, (especially licorice extract), proper sleep, exercise and overall good nutrition. I've been treated off and on for adrenal fatigue for years (I sometimes go through periods where I treat my body very well and can go off the hormone, and then I let myself drop back into the pits nutrition-wise and I feel better if I restart it).
I'm also on a low dose of armour thyroid, which I've only been on a few weeks and I think is helping. I firmly believe that taking the bioidentical form is so much better for your body and my sister -- who has had thyroid problems for years -- has been able to get stable much more easily on armour than on synthroid.
Also, the danger of having too high a thyroid level is osteoporosis...low levels can lead to cancer. (I might have that switched, but that's why my sister's naturapathic M.D. told her).
Posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2011, at 19:51:47
In reply to Re: Thyroid, posted by MissThang on January 6, 2011, at 7:48:55
Miss Thang have you ever read Mary Shoman's site on thyroid? She advocated for armour also. So you have the armour compounded for you. There isn't just an armour pill? Does the naturopath believe in the l-2 as being ideal for thyroid? I just know that since got hasimotos thyroiditis I've never been the same? How do you know in yourself if your adrenal glands need medication? Thanks Phillipa
Posted by MissThang on January 6, 2011, at 20:09:59
In reply to Re: Thyroid » MissThang, posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2011, at 19:51:47
Phillipa -- I don't actually have to have the armour thyroid compounded -- it's available now in a pill form, though not all pharmacies carry it. I get it from a small pharmacy that does compounding of other drugs, so maybe that's why they carry the armour thyroid.
The adrenal fatigue diagnosis is tricky to detect, but it's mostly based on symptoms as well as some hormone levels, such as DHEA. When you have a cluster of the right symptoms, combined with low DHEA levels, my dr. assumes adrenal fatigue. After I started taking a low dose of bioidentical hydrocortisone -- the hormone the adrenals secrete -- I felt better within a week or so. It's subtle though -- not a big wham, bang and you feel magnficent -- but if you have overwhelming fatigue and you've been through a particularly stressful period in your life from which you didn't seem to recover, those are often signs of adrenal fatigue.
My dr's goal is to restore hormone levels to the levels they were when most of us were in our primes -- say around the age of 25 or 30 -- so we feel our best, rather than just getting your levels barely within the "acceptable" normal range. For example, my thyroid level is just borderline low and many traditional drs would say it's not low enough to supplement, but so were my sisters' levels and they both have hashimotos like you, so it just goes to show you.
I also take natural progesterone creme and it's made a huge difference in my periods -- how regular they are and how painful they are. All in all, I definitely feel better since getting my hormones in balance again, something most women don't even think about until they're in menopause.
There are several books out there that suggest that adrenal fatigue is far more common than we think, based on our very stressful lifestyles and poor diets, so it's likely a lot of people would benefit from treatment for it. And because it's bioidentical, it's pretty benign -- I had absolutely no side effects at all from it...just a gradual increase in alertness and decrease in fatigue over the course of a couple of weeks.
Posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2011, at 21:36:19
In reply to Re: Thyroid, posted by MissThang on January 6, 2011, at 20:09:59
Miss Thang been through menopause and taking bioidentical hormones compounded based on hormone levels via serrous blood draw. I don't use as much as prescribed cause of age and risk of cancer. How do you feel about using them as antiaging as this doc is? He also likes armour throid. I need to see if I should try it. But don't they say batch to batch might not be the same? Thanks Phillipa
Posted by MissThang on January 6, 2011, at 22:19:59
In reply to Re: Thyroid » MissThang, posted by Phillipa on January 6, 2011, at 21:36:19
I love the idea of using hormones as anti-aging aids...it makes a lot of sense to me.
As far as the armour thyroid goes, I've only been on it a short time, but I can tell you that my sister felt she was all over the place with her thyroid function while on synthroid but when she went on armour she got a smoother, more consistent relief. Besides, I just like the idea of putting the most natural things in your body.
Posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2011, at 19:30:11
In reply to Re: Thyroid, posted by MissThang on January 6, 2011, at 22:19:59
I do also does your insurance cover armour if not may I ask price? Yes bioidentical hormones make sense since when estrogen goes down bones thin, lots of folks thyroids poop out as mine did. But my worry is can they help organs become younger when aged already? Or will they cause things to grow cancer is the biggest worry? Phillipa
Posted by MissThang on January 8, 2011, at 6:58:14
In reply to Re: Thyroid » MissThang, posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2011, at 19:30:11
I honestly don't know, Phillipa. I'm just repeating what my dr. said, so I'm not sure whether that would cause new cancer or simply exacerbate an existing cancer.
As far as I know, insurance should cover armour thryroid the same way it does synthroid. I don't have drug coverage, so I have to pay for all my drugs out of pocket or try to get on the manufacturer's patient assistance program, which actually isn't that hard, once you get the hang of it. Over the past few years, I've been on patient assistance for wellbutrin, vyvanse, parnate and gabitril. I wouldn't be able to afford my medications if it weren't for patient assistance in many cases, since some of these drugs are so expensive.
Posted by Phillipa on January 8, 2011, at 19:52:08
In reply to Re: Thyroid » Phillipa, posted by MissThang on January 8, 2011, at 6:58:14
Miss Thang that sounds good to me. What your doc said. Didn't know armour covered by insurance. Would medicaire cover it do you know? Guess it depends on the drug coverage plan you pick know my hormones not covered. What is the cost of armour? My synthroid cost about $20 a month Phillipa
Posted by MissThang on January 8, 2011, at 20:28:05
In reply to Re: Thyroid » MissThang, posted by Phillipa on January 8, 2011, at 19:52:08
Armour costs about the same -- about $20-$25/month.
Posted by Phillipa on January 8, 2011, at 21:04:06
In reply to Re: Thyroid, posted by MissThang on January 8, 2011, at 20:28:05
Seriously I thought it would be very expensive. Do regular drug stores carry it? And I just saw my endo who only wants to see me in 9 months as have been stable in his numbers book for over a year and a half. But feel bad. I have 5mcg of cytomel still from a trial he allowed me a few years ago. Would adding it to the synthroid give an idea what it would be like? How does the endo figure out conversions from synthroid to armour? As they are very different in doses? Phillipa
Posted by MissThang on January 9, 2011, at 0:50:12
In reply to Re: Thyroid » MissThang, posted by Phillipa on January 8, 2011, at 21:04:06
You may have to call around the a couple of drugstores, but plenty in my medium-size city carry it and most others can easily get it in stock within a day if you tell them you need it. I don't know about the conversion rate, but I'm sure your dr. could tell you. Would he/she return a call if you said you wanted to go onto armour thyroid?
I just believe the bioidentical is sooooo much better for your body than synthetic and my older sister (who also has hashitmoto's) feels much better on armour than she did on synthroid. Good luck!
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