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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 43. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
they were intended to help? I went on paxil (first AD I ever took and on it for 13+ yrs), for what was probably an anxiety issue; head pressure, squeezing sensation in the head, so because I wasn't depressed until the paxil stopped working, I think it set me up for depression. Like it created an imbalance, etc. or like it used up that part of my brain where emotions lie?
I hope this makes sense. Like it created the problem that it's supposed to be treating??
Laney
Posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2010, at 12:51:43
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
Laney how did you know was thinking same thoughts today. Preceeding paxil took benzos for anxiety which were then the wonder drugs for anxiety and they most definitely were for me. Could easily stop them, change the doses, or the benzo, or go long periods of time without any and feel great. Enter l0mg of paxil with the benzos and three months of feeling like death finally back to normal. But I often wonder was that normal the way I felt before the paxil. If I felt so bad for three months something was happening in my brain. I feel it caused my brain to stop makings it's own serotonin. Not scientific but thoughts and then thyroid added to problem. Now I'm stuck on stuff that doesn't work. What are your plans? Phillipa
Posted by sigismund on November 25, 2010, at 13:06:18
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
> hope this makes sense. Like it created the problem that it's supposed to be treating??
I think this might/could make perfect sense.
Posted by Christ_empowered on November 25, 2010, at 13:20:36
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by sigismund on November 25, 2010, at 13:06:18
I absolutely think the psych drugs can create problems. If I were you, I'd look for alternative methods to handle your depression, like supplements, self-help, etc. You don't want to end up on a complicated cocktail to control what started out as a relatively minor problem.
Posted by Jay_Clockwork_Angels on November 25, 2010, at 14:43:27
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
> they were intended to help? I went on paxil (first AD I ever took and on it for 13+ yrs), for what was probably an anxiety issue; head pressure, squeezing sensation in the head, so because I wasn't depressed until the paxil stopped working, I think it set me up for depression. Like it created an imbalance, etc. or like it used up that part of my brain where emotions lie?
>
> I hope this makes sense. Like it created the problem that it's supposed to be treating??
>
> LaneyI am far from being an expert, but have been a *customer* (hah..) as well as a counselor for just over 20 years. IMHO, YMMV, etc...well, it's complicated! At times, meds seem to have helped so, so much, and other times, they disappoint me.
But, I kept many of my journals from before I went on meds, and life was just as difficult, in fact much moreso at many times, then. There is a bit of a trade-off on occassion, but I tend to view the bit of apathy I have gained, as patience.
Life, love, and all that comes with it, are by nature "flawed", so it is not surprising we have so many mental difficulties to overcome. I wish I could convince myself of this when I am feeling really *bad*..lol.Jay
Posted by huxley on November 25, 2010, at 16:21:31
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
> they were intended to help? I went on paxil (first AD I ever took and on it for 13+ yrs), for what was probably an anxiety issue; head pressure, squeezing sensation in the head, so because I wasn't depressed until the paxil stopped working, I think it set me up for depression. Like it created an imbalance, etc. or like it used up that part of my brain where emotions lie?
>
> I hope this makes sense. Like it created the problem that it's supposed to be treating??
>
> LaneyLaney, I have no doubt in my mind that my problems were made alot worse by psychmeds.
I am constantly amazed that others can't see this. Its almost like an addiction.
Side effects of drugs are treated as symptoms of mental illness and new pills are prescribed to treat them.
The other big thing is discontinuation. Alot of people (not all) suffer massive problems withdrawing from these meds. This commonly leads to a breakdown in life and of course a new diagnosis of bipolar and a new mood stabaliser and antipsychotic.
Have alook at all the SSRI withdrawals on this forum right now.... Check out paxilprogress.org
The problem is, once you are on you are on. ITs often a very hard road to wind back.
Doctors and Psychologists admit that they do not know what they are doing. They don't know what the drugs do and they don't know how people will individually react to them.
They are blindly messing with an amazingly complex system that they are not even close to understanding and its not them that deal with the repercussions its us.
meds have gotten me into a suicidal state. meds have caused my moods to fluctuate arround like 'bipolar'. Only meds have given me panic attacks. Meds have given me depression and also gotten me into really anxious states. Meds have turned me paranoid. Meds have messed up my blood sugar levels and adrenal levels. They have made me overweight. Meds have slowed down my cognative functioning so much that I couldn't function in life.
And they don't work. They might for a while but in the end you end up worse than you were in the beginning.
Luckily for me I managed to get off some of the main offenders and am doing much better. Still a way to go but never again will I go down this path.Its madness (excuse the pun).
You might like a book called 'anatomy of an epidemic' written by robert whitiker.
Posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 18:47:47
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by huxley on November 25, 2010, at 16:21:31
Thank you everyone who chimed in! I know all about the withdrawls from paxil and hence that is why I am still on it. What is so frustrating to me is that I went on it not for anxiety/depression but for what I thought at the time was this wierd head thing. Now when I look back, the wierd head thing was probably anxiety/adrenal or thyroid in nature and absolutely not depression. Prior to meds I have had bouts of depression that I would consider situational and knew it would take some time to recover, etc. So when I attempted a couple years ago to go off of the paxil because I simply thought that the wierd head thing was probably long gone and that's when depression hit. So in a sense, it definitely caused the problem it was supposed to fix. Doctors want to say that your just getting breakthrough depression or that your illness is coming back until I tell them that I didn't go on it for depression to begin with.
I guess all I can do is to educate my friends and family on it. I tell them make drugs an absolute last resort because they can be setting themselves up for a lifetime of worse problems.
Thanks again guys for listening. Now to go eat some turkey and stuffing! LOL! God bless you all.
Laney
Posted by huxley on November 25, 2010, at 19:46:23
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 18:47:47
I dont think you are unique in taking a med for something like pain or an alternative use and then developing anxiety and depression/bipolar.
It has happened with alot of epileptics who take lactimal and other mood stabalisers.This fact is conveniantly ignored by psychiatry and put down to 'your illness progressing' or some other conveniant story.
Good luck to you.
Posted by Abby Cunningham on November 25, 2010, at 20:21:58
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
> they were intended to help? I went on paxil (first AD I ever took and on it for 13+ yrs), for what was probably an anxiety issue; head pressure, squeezing sensation in the head, so because I wasn't depressed until the paxil stopped working, I think it set me up for depression. Like it created an imbalance, etc. or like it used up that part of my brain where emotions lie?
>
> I hope this makes sense. Like it created the problem that it's supposed to be treating??
>
> LaneyI definitely believe that psych drugs can cause the very problems that were intended to help. I have a similar experience with benzos : went on them for anxiety, nearly 30 years ago. besides being addictive, they cause tolerance withdrawal, which in turn sets you up for worse anxiety than you began with, many people end up with agoraphobia which they never had pre-benzo, etc. etc. I also have trouble with insomnia. When I went off benzo entirely back in the late 80's, I slept like a baby on no psych drug!
So sad that I ever went back on them! So yes I believe psych drugs can change your brain chemistry not always for the better : (
Posted by Hombre on November 25, 2010, at 21:42:26
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
I believe that psychotropic drugs have many effects on the body and mind. Some of the factors that go into depression are not addressed by medications, and they can in fact be exacerbated by certain medications. These include weak digestion leading to fatigue, slow metabolism made slower, and emotional problems that are not addressed because too much hope is sometimes placed on medication alone.
Depression and anxiety are symptoms that can also arise out of poor health. Not being healthy enough to generate an adequate amount of energy to deal with life's stresses will eventually cause problems. Even a healthy body can be worn down by chronic stress and exhaustion. That's why they can induce depression in rats by exposing them to stress for a long enough period of time. That's also why people can express a full-on stress reaction by thinking about certain things.
Finally, since there is not a lot of evidence for the long term safety of psychotropic medications, we have to assume that they might have negative consequences that could, in the wrong person at the wrong time, cause serious illness.
But there is nothing to suggest that medication is an evil force that permanently screws up a person's life. It may cause disability, but there is also much that can be done to rehabilitate and restore function.
If that the last decade is considered the decade of the brain, due to advances in scientific knowledge about the neuroplasticity of the brain, than we cannot come to any foregone conclusions. The most promising research shows that exercise and certain medications can reverse some of the atrophy that appears after long-term depression and anxiety. But we knew this already, as stroke survivors have demonstrated an ability to regain function through arduous rehabilitation.
In my experience, a combination of medication, select herbs, adequate nutrition/supplementation, and of course regular exercise, can be used to find a compromise where symptoms are in control enough for underlying emotional issues to be addressed. That's a starting point for the real healing to begin.
I don't speak for everyone, and I know that some people may not be able to find an acceptable compromise...yet. I still hold out hope for them and others out there who are still seeking.
I am thankful for this hope, and I am thankful for you all, for your struggle is respected and admired.
Posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2010, at 21:46:00
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Hombre on November 25, 2010, at 21:42:26
Hombre great post!!!! Phillipa
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on November 26, 2010, at 7:49:44
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
Yes, they defintely can. They have made everything much much worse in my case.
I think most people tolerate the drugs better though.
Posted by hyperfocus on November 26, 2010, at 12:17:43
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
Yeah they definitely can. Paxil in particular I've read several stories here about it pooping out and horrible withdrawal and significant post-SSRI symptoms. Apart from changes to brain chemistry, they can negatively affect your mood and emotions. I found benzos effective for anxiety but they made me so flat and anhedonic. Then I had to look for other meds to address that.
And coming off the benzos took a long time.There has to be a lot more studies done on the negative effects of these meds. Also the mode of prescribing and taking these drugs and long-term administration needs more study. Why do many people respond initially to a drug, then stop taking it thinking they are better, relapse, go back to it and then find it doesn't work anymore? Why do drugs poop out? Why do drugs like Paxil and Effexor have such horrible withdrawal symptoms that seem to persist for a long time after the drug is discontinued. Why do some drugs only start working after you discontinue another drug, like in my case.
Hopefully Dr. Bob will see these issues coming up on PB again and again and encourage researchers to study these issues.
Posted by sigismund on November 26, 2010, at 15:46:16
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by hyperfocus on November 26, 2010, at 12:17:43
It is interesting that the use of benzos can lead to agoraphobia. There was a study of agoraphobics on benzos who were treated by withdrawal. They got better, once they got over the withdrawal.
Posted by morgan miller on November 26, 2010, at 16:22:41
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by huxley on November 25, 2010, at 16:21:31
>I am constantly amazed that others can't see this. Its almost like an addiction.
This is partially due to the fact that others are not worse off after medication use. You does not equal everyone.
Also, be aware of making judgements solely based on what you read on the internet. Remember, there are thousands of people doing very well currently on a medication or long after stopping a medication, that you don't hear about because they are just going on with their lives and feel not need to get on the internet and say, "Hey everyone out there! I'm doing great and life is wonderful!". You will find some of those people on sites that are made for medication reviews.
>And they don't work. They might for a while but in the end you end up worse than you were in the beginning.
.
Again, that is YOU, not everyone.I'm sorry you have gone through hell with medications. You just have to realize though, that there are many out there doing just fine on medication, and doing just fine for a very very long time. Maybe it's easier for you to think that everyone will be worse off just like you are.
Morgan
Posted by Phillipa on November 26, 2010, at 18:13:26
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by morgan miller on November 26, 2010, at 16:22:41
Didn't have a problem coming off the paxil but this luvox a different story. I feel it's the total length of time you are on a certain med that creates bad withdrawal as can't get off a mere 50mg of luvox as been on it ll years. Phillipa
Posted by violette on November 27, 2010, at 15:18:08
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
I was much better off - in all areas of my life - prior to taking psychiatric drugs. Like some here, I haven't been the same since. I have asked myself similar questions - have psychotropic drugs worsened my condition, somehow caused permanent, adverse changes to my brain? Somehow, it might be easier for me to think - yes, the drugs caused it. That would imply there might be a medical solution and maybe give me something or someone to blame or direct my anger at. Alternatively, it would allow me to redirect my thoughts from painful and unpleasant emotions to repetitive thoughts about 'what happened to my brain'...or 'what med will fix this'...
While I agree there should be valid and well funded studies to assess the long term consequences of these drugs, unfortunately, I don't know of any that exist.
So while I don't have any clues as to whether or not psychiatric drugs have indeed led to more problems for some, there is evidence that may provide explanations to perhaps some of these situations. I think there is a flaw in mental health practice, where if someone does not meet the criteria of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), for one, they end up in biological psychiatric limbo-med trial after med trial, and-or psychotherapies that are not effective, or less effective than what is needed for someone with Borderline pathology. I also think men get the short end of the stick, as they are less likely to be seen as 'Borderline'.
Symptoms such as lack of motivation, ahedonia, are signs of Borderline pathology and other more permanent mental conditions. I also think someone who regularly has these symptoms, along with anxiety, OCD, and other problems such as ADD or substance abuse problems, is more likely to be in the Borderline spectrum - which is not an 'official' DSM diagnosis.
If some could possibly ignore or unlearn the stereotypes associated with BPD through the media and mainstream/popular websites, and think of Borderline pathology in terms of a continuum with some biological origins rather than character or personality 'flaws', it could possibly bring some closer to finding solutions to help end suffering. For instance-benzodiazepenes calm anxiety in someone who has BPD or who is in the Borderline spectrum the same as someone with an Axis I anxiety diagnosis.
I noticed patients sometimes get diagnosed with 'Complex PTSD' - which is the closest I've seen to a description of a Borderline structure - but there isn't much of a research history for C-PTSD; it just doesn't compare with the research out there in attachment, object relations and self psychology. And if you focus on relief of more narrow diagnoses - depression, anxiety; or symptoms - lack of motivation, focus/concentration, etc - you might be overlooking the whole forest, seeing only the trees.
Then there's the diagnosis of 'BPII'...or the misdiagnosis if Bipolar I (that is evidenced by by research)...where emotional problems sometimes get erased from the picture simply because someone is able to get through life-even if they have not life quality whatsoever...merely existing...going through the motions.
Many problems overlap, then sometimes are veiwed as part of depression, but can really be a part of more complex pathology. Depersonalization is a symptom that can occur with those who have a Borderline stucture. Symptoms in the depersonalization spectrum are very difficult to treat with medications, and there is not much researched in this area. It's another way to look at some of symptoms people often think of as inclusive of depression when they could be more relevent to something bigger going on:
"In a large study of people with depersonalization disorder, many of them reported feeling as if their surroundings were not real. In addition, they also felt like they were looking at the world through a fog, as if their bodies didnt belong to them, and as though once-familiar places were suddenly foreign. Some of them even reported that on occasion they felt as if they were outside of their bodies looking at themselves or that they didnt recognize themselves when looking in a mirror.
In addition, people with this problem often feel emotionally and physically numb, isolated, without motivation, unable to concentrate, unable to remember things, weightless, and dizzy. They might also experience a distortion of their senses, like the loss of sound, color, or taste. Or they may feel as though the world is two-dimensional or not solid.
Are There Other Problems Related to Depersonalization Disorder?
People with depersonalization disorder often suffer with other problems, such as depression, panic disorder, phobias, generalized anxiety disorder, and drug or alcohol abuse."
http://www.newharbinger.com/PsychSolve/DissociativeDisorders/tabid/128/Default.aspx
Just because one does not experience the world as 'two dimensional' or feel outside of your body as described in that article, does not mean one does not have mild depersonalization - the numbness and lack of interest in life... While I think looking at symptoms as a continuum, rather than a 'meets or does not meet' the criteria can be helpful, psychiatrists seem to focus on diagnoses - the trees - which is how they are taught and how the system has evolved as a result of research, politics, money, and culture. But by doing so, by viewing and treating our illness as trees, they are sometimes unable to see the forest and people are suffering because of it.
Kernberg is one who describes a Borderline emotional structure, cognition, and object relations in depth; it might be worth it for some to look into his work if you are someone who has not found adequate relief through medications. This, of course, is a psychodynamic view, so there are no doubts some psychiatrists would not recognize this, agree, or even acknowledge it. It's a bit different here near NYC, where there are many psychiatrists who have a psychodynamic way of thinking and treating patients..I do not know how it is outside of the U.S.
It's only my opinion-nothing more, nothing less, that some people with more permanent mental illness might be in the Borderline spectrum or within the spectrum of another more permanent personality structure similar to Borderline. Unfortunately, although there is not much, if any, research about long term consequences of psychiatric drugs...there is plenty of research that looks at similar symptoms from a different angle-a psychodynamic perspective.
I've found the most useful stuff in books as it seems there is little public access to psychodynamic papers. It's really been helpful to me; and even though I'm not yet where i want to be and still relapse from time to time, I'm slowly and steadily improving. I've also begun to realize I'm much closer to a healthy state of mind than I was prior to having any symptoms of depression, PTSD, and anxiety, before I was actually diagnosed with any mental health problems. If anyone is interested, there is an extensive history of psychodynamic theory and case studies; it's very deep in comparison to other views of symptoms, the psyche of those with mental illnesses...and a bit more difficult to digest until you become more familiar with the concepts.
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2010, at 19:48:19
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by violette on November 27, 2010, at 15:18:08
So you feel that a great deal of folks are Borderline? And do not require meds? And that they don't change a person's brain? Instead it'a personality disorder? I'm really confused with this post. Forgive me if not as knowledgeable. Phillipa
Posted by merpmerp on November 27, 2010, at 21:54:12
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by morgan miller on November 26, 2010, at 16:22:41
This is so true. When I was on Prozac the first time, 5 years ago, I felt perfect. I had never heard of this site and would never have thought to look because I was out living my life and getting stuff done, not scouring the Internet for info.
> Also, be aware of making judgements solely based on what you read on the internet. Remember, there are thousands of people doing very well currently on a medication or long after stopping a medication, that you don't hear about because they are just going on with their lives and feel not need to get on the internet and say, "Hey everyone out there! I'm doing great and life is wonderful!". You will find some of those people on sites that are made for medication reviews.
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2010, at 22:02:34
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems » morgan miller, posted by merpmerp on November 27, 2010, at 21:54:12
Same here with the paxil at l0mg and benzos then quit and back to extremly low benzo doses that the doc said were placebo as so low. Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 28, 2010, at 7:30:40
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by violette on November 27, 2010, at 15:18:08
>I was much better off - in all areas of my life - prior to taking psychiatric drugs. Like some here, I haven't been the same since.
Personally, I was better off in some ways, but worse off in other ways. It's been a mixed bag.
Posted by merpmerp on November 28, 2010, at 10:45:55
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems » merpmerp, posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2010, at 22:02:34
Wish I had never quit my Prozac. Specifically I wish I had never quit the specific generic brand I was on. But, I would have had to come off it anyway as I moved and I don't think it's available here. Well I learned my lesson and when I find something that works that well again, nothing will take it from me! :)
Posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 12:57:17
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by merpmerp on November 28, 2010, at 10:45:55
> Wish I had never quit my Prozac. Specifically I wish I had never quit the specific generic brand I was on. But, I would have had to come off it anyway as I moved and I don't think it's available here. Well I learned my lesson and when I find something that works that well again, nothing will take it from me! :)
I right there with ya. I wish I had never quit Zoloft when I did. Quitting your med is like taking the bandaging off deep wide oozing wound.
I do think psych meds may cause permanent changes in some cases. What I don't think people realize is when they quit the medication that was working because they just want to be off medication, they leave themselves vulnerable to severe depression and anxiety-two things that also may cause permanent changes. Another thing I do not think people are taking into account is the fact that our brains are changing as we age, minus any medication or mental illness.
Posted by Jeroen on November 28, 2010, at 13:27:53
In reply to Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by Laney on November 25, 2010, at 12:12:24
hi, yes i took lamictal when i was feeling ok, but not myself
and after a week i got permanent brain damage
lamictal induced psychotic (permanent) TD
Posted by merpmerp on November 28, 2010, at 14:19:17
In reply to Re: Do you think psych drugs cause the very problems, posted by morgan miller on November 28, 2010, at 12:57:17
To quote Crazymeds: "You feel better BECAUSE THE MEDS ARE WORKING! It is not (necessarily) because you have been cured."
You are correct that depression and anxiety can cause permanent damage. I will stick with meds as long as they stick with me.
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