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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SLS on September 22, 2010, at 4:58:45
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » Huxley, posted by former poster on September 22, 2010, at 0:02:57
I guess it depends on how you define the word "damage". Obviously, exposure to antidepressants produce changes in the way the brain functions. That's what you want. However, sometimes certain unwanted effects linger or are irreversible. SSRI poop-out might be an example of this. Exposure to an antidepressant can produce treatment resistance to that antidepressant, necessitating a change in therapies. What else is going on there that we don't know about?
Your point describing the negative changes that occur in the brain if the illness is left untreated is valid and can be observed on brain scans. It is important to treat the illness as early as is deemed clinically indicated.
So, what to do?
Pray for better treatments.
Perhaps use the ones that are currently available to effect a positive clinical response and improve one's quality of life rather than to languish for years on end laying in bed staring at the ceiling.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2010, at 8:16:24
In reply to Lou's request-ihnduhustreeohvdhe, posted by Lou Pilder on September 21, 2010, at 4:20:20
Friends,
If you are considerng being a discussant in this thread or parallel threads, I am requestying that you read the following.
Lou
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2010, at 8:24:50
In reply to Lou's request-phalzdhealhemhah, posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2010, at 8:16:24
> Friends,
> If you are considerng being a discussant in this thread or parallel threads, I am requestying that you read the following.
> Lou
> http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.htmlFriends,
Also, am requesting that you look at the following if you are considering to be a discussant in this thread.
Lou
http://www.nizkor.org/featues/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2010, at 8:57:53
In reply to Lou's request-ehypealtuahthoritty, posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2010, at 8:24:50
> > Friends,
> > If you are considerng being a discussant in this thread or parallel threads, I am requestying that you read the following.
> > Lou
> > http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html
>
> Friends,
> Also, am requesting that you look at the following if you are considering to be a discussant in this thread.
> Lou
> http://www.nizkor.org/featues/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.htmlFriends,
Also, I am requesting that you look at the folllowing if you are considering being a discussant in this thread. In particular, but not limited to the fallacy of {quoting out of context} and {straw man} and {hasty generalization}.
Lou
http://www.suu.edu/faculty/franklinc/fallacy.htm
Posted by Phillipa on September 22, 2010, at 19:58:54
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » Huxley, posted by former poster on September 22, 2010, at 0:02:57
I felt my very best when was working, came home, had 4-6 coronas and lime and .5 xanax and off to bed. Felt wonderful the next day also. Was only after stopping the beer that things got bad. Look at the Europeans for example wine with meals ever the children. Phillipa ps when traveling there my Daughter ll at the time have a different wine with each course of her meal which was about l0. Yes she got drunk. But today is only an occasional drinker and extremly high functioning. Phillipa
Posted by huxley on September 22, 2010, at 20:27:30
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » Huxley, posted by former poster on September 22, 2010, at 0:02:57
> How do we know when a brain is damaged? According to my Psychiatrist, depression left untreated can be very damaging to the brain. I respond well to SSRI's. So I'm left with the choice, which is the worst of the 2? SSRI damage, or damage from the stress of depression?
>
> It may be that some people are damaged, some not. Don't believe everything you are told.
> Example: Can brain damage be measured?
> Alcohol is a major brain damager, so I have been told all my life. I have seen my wife drink enough beer over the years to fill an Olympic-sized swimming pool. She stopped "cold turkey". I don't see any sign of brain damage. I think she is getting smarter. She can do a Sudoku puzzle faster than anyone I know. From my observations, Alcohol is good for your brain, or at least for her brain. Her social skills, math and problem solving skills are superb. She can do 5 times more work than I can. I don't know what to believe.Hi FP,
I think your example just goes to show how flawed observational science is. And that is what psychiatry is at the moment.
I could think of no better advice to give to you than what you gave to me, 'Don't believe everything you are told'. Especially from those in the psychiatry field.
If you take a med and it works for you and keeps on working for you forever, thats great. You are one of the lucky ones.
Posted by olivia12 on September 22, 2010, at 20:54:15
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by huxley on September 22, 2010, at 20:27:30
Most people DO benefit from the efforts of psychology. However, it's a tandem effort--with the larger effort on your part. It's very hard work to get well. You need to work with the meds and the side effects and want to feel better/have a better life. A little pill is not a "cure-all". Whenever I have been involved in good therapy, I found it to be very hard work. When it was no longer difficult, I knew I was done:)The point is, no matter how flawed you might find modern day medicine, nobody's gonna fix what's wrong with you without some serious effort on your part. Again, this is just IMO.
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 0:35:27
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 22, 2010, at 20:54:15
Hi Olivia.
I am curious about your perspective on medication.
> A little pill is not a "cure-all".
I have two questions:
1. If it doesn't cure all, then what DOES it cure?
2. If it doesn't cure all, then what does it NOT cure?
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 7:09:31
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 0:35:27
I'm not sure if you're joking, Scott, but I believe meds to be an adjunct to therapy. At best, they may round out the rough edges of MI. I don't really understand your comment?
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 7:25:34
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 7:09:31
> I'm not sure if you're joking, Scott, but I believe meds to be an adjunct to therapy. At best, they may round out the rough edges of MI. I don't really understand your comment?
I was sincere in my inquiry.
I am trying to understand what people mean when they say that a pill is not sufficient to produce a remission of depression. So, my question is:
What will a pill NOT do?
The more specific you can be, the better I will be able to understand. I think something productive may come from this discussion.
Thanks. I appreciate it.
- Scott
Posted by huxley on September 23, 2010, at 18:36:30
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 7:25:34
Hi Scott,
You seem to be pretty switched on and have a good insight into the field of psychiatry. Maybe you can help me out here.
Why do a large majority of doctors deny that there is withdrawal from medications. Even when the evidence is staring them right in the face.
I and many other have experienced horrible withdrawal from SSRI/NIs and Neuroleptics. I have read horror stories about TCAs, MAOIs and mood stabalisers.
Why do doctors continue to deny this and cling to the line that it is our original symptoms returning.
There are many cases where people have been put on SSRIs for pain relief or other off label reasons.
Once these people quit they are struck down with severe depression and anxiety even though they have never experienced it before.
Could it be the case, that many of us would not be in a better place mentally if we never took medication? I think that there could be some merit to that claim.
Most of us have a similar story. We take an SSRI for our original problem. It works great at first. 2-3 years down the track it stops working and we are often worse of than we were before we started. Doctors claim that this is the illness progressing. But is it? What is to say that the SSRI has not thrown our brains out of balance?
Have there been any long term studies done comparing people who get treatment with meds vs people who don't?
Will this 'illness progressing' theory be as valid as the 'chemical imbalance' theory?
If someone is on a neuroleptic, (which I think are quite dangerous medications)and they try to stop only to me met with horrible physical and mental withdrawal syndromes. They are then told that this is their original condition returning. This is what they are like without their medication and are hence condemmed to a life on neuroleptics when in fact they could be fine without them.
Interested on your insights into this. Why are doctors so stubborn with refusing to believe that people suffer serious withdrawal. Who is educating them? I just am totally bamboozeled by their denial of withdrawal even when faced with overwhelming evidence.Doctors are not stupid people, they are often highly intelligent, the cream of the academic crop. How can they be so blind in this instance? Is it an ego or personality thing? Or is it something more sinister and they are being taught to deny it?
Also you mentioned in an earlier post that they can see the damage to the brain from depression through brain scans.Is this a new development? Can they take an image of 10 peoples brains, 5 who have depression and 5 who don't and identify the ones with depression?
I thought the signs of depression they could identify were not consistant and contradicted others findings.I thought that it was a pretty fledgling science and nothing conclusive had come out of it yet.
Posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 19:21:27
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 7:25:34
Scott, I was merely referring to the idea that many people hold re: anti-depressants and the like. They often times consider it a magic bullet--a utopia that only requires one to swallow a pill. From my own experiences, the meds only serve to take the edge off so that I am more able to help myself to feel better. A friend of mine described her experience when on Paxil as this "it helps me to have more good days than bad". For me, this is the best explanation of why I still bother with them. I try to find the one with the fewest side effects and just suck up the nasty withdrawal, as I know that this is only temporary payback. They allow me to be a bit less tempermental and negative and just kinda tweak my vantage point. Hope I answered your question and thanks for asking:)
Posted by huxley on September 23, 2010, at 19:28:30
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 19:21:27
> Scott, I was merely referring to the idea that many people hold re: anti-depressants and the like. They often times consider it a magic bullet--a utopia that only requires one to swallow a pill. From my own experiences, the meds only serve to take the edge off so that I am more able to help myself to feel better. A friend of mine described her experience when on Paxil as this "it helps me to have more good days than bad". For me, this is the best explanation of why I still bother with them. I try to find the one with the fewest side effects and just suck up the nasty withdrawal, as I know that this is only temporary payback. They allow me to be a bit less tempermental and negative and just kinda tweak my vantage point. Hope I answered your question and thanks for asking:)
Olivia I think the distinction needs to be made that some people get withdrawal that lasts for years and completly derails their lives where they end up physically and mentally debilitated. A little hard to just suck that up. Others like yourself can come and go off the meds with no problems.
Posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 19:40:28
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by huxley on September 23, 2010, at 19:28:30
Huxley, I can only speak from my own experience. I can't say if my withdrawal was better or worse than your own. I do know that the 1st time I went off a drug I was blown away by how horrible I felt--both physically and emotionally. I called the doc and he had little to say--he sounded like I was the 1st patient with side effects! And so, I researched and found that my symptoms were normal. Luckily, they did go away and so I can't respond to your comment re: years of withdrawal effects. I do think the psych community is a bit irresponsible in discussing the probable withdrawal effects though. Maybe they don't want to deter their patients from pursuing a medical regime? When getting off of some of the AD's that I have tried, I have felt crazier than I ever did before ever taking anything. However, my experiences have never been so awful that I have regetted my choice to take the drug(s).
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:00:09
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » SLS, posted by huxley on September 23, 2010, at 18:36:30
Hi Huxley.
> You seem to be pretty switched on and have a good insight into the field of psychiatry.
Not nearly enough to speak intelligently about psychiatry as a whole.
> Maybe you can help me out here.
> Why do a large majority of doctors deny that there is withdrawal from medications. Even when the evidence is staring them right in the face.It wasn't my intention to debate the competency of psychiatry. I was just curious what people mean when they say that a pill won't do everything.
> Also you mentioned in an earlier post that they can see the damage to the brain from depression through brain scans.
Yup.
> Is this a new development?
No. As early as 1992, PET scans revealed differences in brain activity between those affected by depression (MDD and BD) and healthy volunteers.
> Can they take an image of 10 peoples brains, 5 who have depression and 5 who don't and identify the ones with depression?
Yes.
> I thought the signs of depression they could identify were not consistant and contradicted others findings.
There is debate regarding some details. There is less so regarding the existence of phenotypic differences.
> I thought that it was a pretty fledgling science and nothing conclusive had come out of it yet.
Fledgling, perhaps. Nothing conclusive? I disagree. I guess it is a matter of perspective. The most important perspective to me is that I was born much too early. This is probably true of most of the people who post here. I have been watching the evolution of biological psychiatry since 1982. There has been a relative explosion in data, but not sufficient understanding as to how all the pieces of the puzzle fit.
What will a pill do?
What will a pill not do?
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 22:05:36
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » huxley, posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:00:09
A pill will not do the work of living for you. A pill will only act as an assist--you will need to pick up the slack.
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:27:19
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 19:21:27
Hi Olivia
> They often times consider it a magic bullet--
When I was responsive to antidepressants and before I was inadvertantly mistreated, pills were absolute magic for me. When I respond, it feels like the whole world changes and that I become more functional in it. My perceptions change. My thoughts become clearer, more energetic, more efficient, and less negative.
> a utopia that only requires one to swallow a pill.
I believe that drugs, when they work, facilitate and allow one to build their own utopia, or at least make the most of what they have available to actualize with. This is what the pills won't do: They won't build a life for someone who has none. That's work that anyone must do for themselves, whether an MI is present or not. Psychotherapy can serve many purposes to help one to recover from depression, including attending to those elements of an individual's psyche that may contribute to its precipitation and persistence.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:34:41
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 22:05:36
> A pill will not do the work of living for you.
We are obviously in agreement here.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 22:47:36
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:27:19
"before I was inadvertantly mistreated"
Yes, we do agree--minus this point...how were you mistreated? I will need to respond to you tomorrow as it is very late here and I need some sleep. Take care:)
Posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:56:35
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 22:47:36
> "before I was inadvertantly mistreated"
>
>
> Yes, we do agree--minus this point...how were you mistreated? I will need to respond to you tomorrow as it is very late here and I need some sleep. Take care:)"Mistreated" may not have been the best choice of words. I just can't come up with a better one right now.
Long story. 20 years ago, doctors made treatment decisions that I believe led to a more treatment resistant depression. Of course, they thought that they were doing the right thing according to the treatment protocols popular at the time.
- Scott
Posted by Jeroen on September 24, 2010, at 8:56:28
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:56:35
yes mi brain is damaged from the lamictal,
cognitive, as well as a manic psychosis
Posted by olivia12 on September 24, 2010, at 18:39:01
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged? » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 23, 2010, at 22:56:35
Can you be more specific, Scott? What did they do that messed with your chemistry? How awful to be dealing with MI at such a young age. If we were talking present day, I would not have said that, but 20 years ago, kids were more rarely treated with meds. So, what happened?
Posted by olivia12 on September 24, 2010, at 21:06:08
In reply to Lou's request-pstralmahnn, posted by Lou Pilder on September 22, 2010, at 8:57:53
Lou, you still confound me. Despite your explanations, why do you post in the same manner every time? No disrespect meant, but I do not get your references to strange videos. You seem like a pretty well-read guy and so, what?
Posted by SLS on September 25, 2010, at 4:58:42
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by olivia12 on September 24, 2010, at 18:39:01
> Can you be more specific, Scott? What did they do that messed with your chemistry?
I had become manic on Nardil. So, the Nardil was removed and both Thorazine and Prolixen added. Within a week, they put me back on Nardil. My manic reaction to this exposure was more severe than the original mania. I never responded to previously successful treatments again.
- Scott
Posted by Jeroen on September 25, 2010, at 9:00:31
In reply to Re: Have our brains been permanently damaged?, posted by SLS on September 25, 2010, at 4:58:42
Q: Do psychiatrist gives us mania by accident?
is it because some psychiatrist are incompetent, or say lets try, we get in trouble and our brains damagedk, thats what happened to me, and i ve seen it happen to others aswell
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