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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by marty hinz, MD on August 20, 2010, at 22:52:56
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels? » 4WD, posted by Elroy on May 19, 2005, at 21:45:06
Contrary to the assertions in the blog urinary neurotransmitter testing is quackery. Baseline testing is of no value since baseline value fluctuate greatly from day to day and there is no correlation between baseline testing performed on one day and another. Furthermore, there is no correlation between baseline testing and tests performed while taking amino acid precursors. The monoamine neurotransmitters found in the urine are synthesized by the kidneys and have no correlation with central or peripheral levels. A lab test is only of value if it is interpreted properly. Simply determining if levels are high or low on testing is of no value. Only in side of the 3 phase model of organic cation transporter functional status interpretation is this valid. The only lab doing this is www.DBSlabs.com. Why are they the only one doing this? Because they ahve the patents on the process. DBS Labs has peer reviewed scientific articles on its web site that discuss what I am saying here. Please read them if you thing labs promoting urinary neurotransmitter testing are legitimate.
Marty Hinz, MD
Posted by chujoe on August 21, 2010, at 12:17:45
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels?, posted by marty hinz, MD on August 20, 2010, at 22:52:56
So, Marty, what do you think of the use of precursors in general? I'm convinced that tyrosine helps with my ADHD / Anxiety, but I only have my own sense of things to go on.
Posted by Zzzz on August 21, 2010, at 14:12:51
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels? » marty hinz, MD, posted by chujoe on August 21, 2010, at 12:17:45
I have used L-tyrosine for many years. TSH was climbing in the high zone 6's and standard thyroid replacement caused severe tachycardia.The L-tyrosine amount was adjusted according to the TSH results. For reasons unknown the L-tyrosine dose amount will continue to lower my TSH as the dose increases. This can lead to hyperthyroid. So I am blood tested for the results and have been stable at a certain dose. The L-tyrosine did not cause any blood pressure or pulse increase.
This type of use for the amino acid was well planned out and took a couple years of blood testing for the pre and post results as body fluctuations or use of different labs can alter test results.
I have an underlying anomaly somewhere but neuro-endocrine disorders are a real challenge and only part is known for cetain. I do feel better with the TSH corrected.
Posted by marty hinz, MD on August 22, 2010, at 9:56:01
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels? » marty hinz, MD, posted by chujoe on August 21, 2010, at 12:17:45
I have headed up a medical research project since 1997 on the use of amino acids in neurotransmitter dysfunction. The amino acids can be exceptionally helful when prescribed by properly trained doctors. Go to www.neuroassist.com for an over view.
Posted by chujoe on August 22, 2010, at 10:55:51
In reply to they do help in the right hands, posted by marty hinz, MD on August 22, 2010, at 9:56:01
Thanks, Marty, for the link. I've been reading the material on your site, but I have to admit that I'm a little suspicious of any scientific result that claims 100% effectiveness. From my own research I can see that you & your associates are working with the usual neurotransmitter supplements, but if I'm understanding you correctly, you are getting superior results because of careful case management and precise dosing, is that correct?
Posted by violette on August 22, 2010, at 11:34:46
In reply to they do help in the right hands, posted by marty hinz, MD on August 22, 2010, at 9:56:01
Pretty interesting. I wanted to see the doctors or clinics in my area associated with this treatment approach-but saw you had to give out your personal information to get that information. It makes me think someone would be calling me back to do a sales pitch....which completely turned me off from even considering it.
Why would the clinicians need to be kept a secret? I'd feel more comfortable in seeing who the actual doctors are before giving out my information....
Just some feedback for you..but thank you for the link.
Posted by marty hinz, MD on August 22, 2010, at 11:37:00
In reply to Re: they do help in the right hands » marty hinz, MD, posted by violette on August 22, 2010, at 11:34:46
call 877-626-2220 you will talk to real people that can give you information
Posted by violette on August 22, 2010, at 11:54:50
In reply to Re: they do help in the right hands, posted by marty hinz, MD on August 22, 2010, at 11:37:00
Why would I call-so I can talk to a telemarketer who makes $8 an hour base pay plus a sliding-scale commission based upon the number of patients they can draw in for the month?
I'm all about using amino acids and natural substances as treatment tools..but please, consumers are smarter than that these days.
Maybe they are alternative doctors who 'test' your neurotransmitters and send them to expensive labs. If the treatment was so great, I think there would be a list of doctors on the site who are confident with this approach-confident enough to have their name listed.
Maybe it would be useful to others who are desperate but who also have $ to spend friviously. I am not that desperate, but not as symptomatic anymore either.
Posted by marty hinz, MD on August 22, 2010, at 11:58:03
In reply to Re: they do help in the right hands » marty hinz, MD, posted by violette on August 22, 2010, at 11:54:50
Kook born every day and you obviously were the one on your birthday. This is a medical operation when you call one of our RNs answer the phone. I would suggest you go harrass someone else.
Posted by chujoe on August 22, 2010, at 12:03:27
In reply to Re: they do help in the right hands, posted by marty hinz, MD on August 22, 2010, at 11:58:03
Hey Doc, we don't call people names on this board. You might want to rephrase your response to Violette so that it doesn't read like an insult.
Posted by violette on August 22, 2010, at 12:04:45
In reply to Re: they do help in the right hands, posted by marty hinz, MD on August 22, 2010, at 11:58:03
Glad you appreciated the feedback! Hmm. Something I said must have touched a nerve to set you off like that. I was going to give you some advice about how to draw in patients from the market niche you are targeting...but hey, I'm just a kook, what do I know?
I would fire your marketing director, if you even have one.
Posted by violette on August 22, 2010, at 12:10:02
In reply to Helping Dr. Marty not get blocked, posted by chujoe on August 22, 2010, at 12:03:27
Thanks Chujoe! It's ok. I think his reaction says more about him than it does about me. I was actually thinking of giving him advice regarding how to draw in patients to help his business/practice. Totally honest! But hey he can always pay an MBA a six figure salary if he wants his business to succeed.
You know as well as I, Chujoe-kooks can be smart and creative too! :)
Posted by chujoe on August 22, 2010, at 12:17:14
In reply to Re: Helping Dr. Marty not get blocked » chujoe, posted by violette on August 22, 2010, at 12:10:02
Posted by violette on August 22, 2010, at 15:23:32
In reply to We're all kooks here, Doctor! (nm), posted by chujoe on August 22, 2010, at 12:17:14
Well that 100% efficiacy you mentioned made me think of all the marketing that targets people who suffer. It also reminded me of the weight loss market scams....
Apparantly, the products sold through the clinics are or were a revenue generator, which in itself is not suprising...but there are license suspensions and lawsuits involved...
Maybe it is a good treatment/service...but people can make their own conclusions and a quick google search led to my own conclusion (about kooks too!):
http://online.drl.wi.gov/decisions/1998/ls9812161med-00067535.pdf
http://www.manta.com/c/mmg79d5/martin-c-hinz-md
http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/prod/2005/neuroresearch.shtml
http://www.legalmetric.com/cases/patent/mnd/mnd_003cv00868.html#s10
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-8th-circuit/1336355.html
http://www.chknutrition.com/lab%20board%20statement.pdf
http://www.morelaw.com/verdicts/case.asp?n=07-2694/2699&s=MN&d=36991
Posted by Free on August 22, 2010, at 19:24:47
In reply to Re: Helping Dr. Marty not get blocked » chujoe, posted by violette on August 22, 2010, at 12:10:02
>
> You know as well as I, Chujoe-kooks can be smart and creative too! :)And nimble around the net.
Wow, Violette, that was fast investigative work!
Posted by Zzzz on August 22, 2010, at 19:37:45
In reply to Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels???, posted by Elroy on May 4, 2005, at 18:58:16
When testing for the absence of orexin neurotransmitter in the lateral hypothalamus, CNS. EEG over night and daytime studies are run, a genetic test for DQB 10602, and a spinal tap. The spinal tap will give the neurotransmitter amount in the brain and spinal cord.
Posted by violette on August 24, 2010, at 10:26:53
In reply to Re: Helping Dr. Marty not get blocked » violette, posted by Free on August 22, 2010, at 19:24:47
It's just about picking the right keywords Free! Do plenty of research on different topics, and after practicing enough, anyone will become an 'internet detective' by determining the 'right' key words to select. :)
Posted by violette on August 24, 2010, at 10:32:03
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels???, posted by Zzzz on August 22, 2010, at 19:37:45
"genetic test for DQB 10602"
I have no clue what that is, but had also heard that spinal taps were the only accurate way to assess neurotransmitter or other neurological measurements to derive any type of meaning from them.
That website claims it's all in the lab 'interpretation' that counts. (The same lab owned by the co-author of that lone book chapter that site keeps referring to).
Oh well; spend your money wisely.
Posted by Zzzz on August 24, 2010, at 13:24:37
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels??? » Zzzz, posted by violette on August 24, 2010, at 10:32:03
HLA-DQB1 0602 is for auto-immune. Almost everyone with the disease narcolepsy carry the same auto immune gene. The genetic test results is an easy way to make a choice to continue further expensive testing if symptoms exist or look for some other cause.
People can carry the gene and not have the disease. The exact way that the orexin cells in the brain cease to exist via the immune system is not fully known.
Spinal taps can tell neurotransmiters in the fluid and campare with normal. However it does not zoom in on the detail of where how and what effect. Even when we have results the brain is hard to get at the right location in the right amount in the right rhythm in the right timing in the right synergy and so on. $$$$$$$$$ More than frustrating when you are the one with an illness.
It is a wonder at how well we function.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on August 24, 2010, at 15:15:39
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels???, posted by Zzzz on August 24, 2010, at 13:24:37
>Spinal taps can tell neurotransmiters in the fluid and campare with normal. However it does not zoom in on the detail of where how and what effect.
In short, it doesn't tell you a lot!
Posted by Zzzz on August 24, 2010, at 20:14:06
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels???, posted by ed_uk2010 on August 24, 2010, at 15:15:39
Example: narcolepsy; In the case of orexin (Hcrt-1 and Hcrt-2) neurotransmitters processed from the precursor preprohypocretin. The cerebrospinal fluid would show low concentration or absence of orexins in the central nervous system. The knowledge of the disease symptoms would be confirmed due to the background education already known. The hope is to stop the disease in early onset. A low amount of orexin would be better than zero. A cure is best.
The symptoms of this disease go misdiagnosed for years as depression, epilepsy, bipolar..and more. Each person needs to study the facts before deciding for a test such as this.
Posted by violette on August 25, 2010, at 22:29:41
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels???, posted by Zzzz on August 24, 2010, at 20:14:06
"Each person needs to study the facts before deciding for a test such as this."
How much would a genetic test like that cost, and do insurance companies generally pay for such tests? Also, are the symptoms of narcolepsy similar to sleep apnea? If you are unaware of 'microsleeping' during the day, for example, would you feel similar as a person who has obstructive or central sleep apnea?
I don't suspect I have narcolepsy-I've just been interested in sleep 'stuff' since I was a child as I've always been such a light sleeper/chronic hyperarousal, and am a chronic lucid dreamer; I also have migranes. My father was a very light sleeper too, had migranes, anxiety, and he died very young.
Posted by Zzzz on August 26, 2010, at 1:06:41
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels??? » Zzzz, posted by violette on August 25, 2010, at 22:29:41
Sorry your Dad died young.
There is a info site at ghr.nlm.nih.gov. It is Genetic Home Reference Gene Test National Institute of Health with a link for the genetic test and cost at the UW. My test I believe cost about $100. But it was for DR2 before they narrowed it down further.
The sleep effects of Apnea can include the results of low oxygen levels at night. Day time sleepiness compareed to narcolepsy can be similar depending on how severe they are. Narcolepsy when it is mild to perhaps moderate can improve greatly after a 10-15min nap that is in rhythm with the symptoms wax and wane.How long they remain refreshed varies greatly. Sleep apnea does not do the same
Outside of the horrible tiredness they are quite different. Someone with both untreated problems really is compounded. Stanford University Sleep Disorders has good info on their site.I choose to write orexins rather than hypocretin which is the same because the ataxin-3 mice with the narcolepsy have the metabolic (fat, weight/calorie ratio)problems. The gene Knock out mice with narcolepsy symptoms do not have the metabolic problems. The dogs at Stanford with narcolepsy symptom have the neurotransmitters but the receptor site is mutated. Humans can also develop narcolepsy like the dogs but is rare.
Posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 7:31:54
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels???, posted by Zzzz on August 26, 2010, at 1:06:41
Regarding the metabolism problems-do you mean 'syndrome X'? I know sleep apnea is greatly underdiagnosed and people who get less sleep die younger..wondered if I had some 'bad sleep genes' or something!
Thanks, that was interesting.
Posted by Zzzz on August 26, 2010, at 13:38:38
In reply to Re: Urine Test to Measure Neurotransmitter Levels??? » Zzzz, posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 7:31:54
No syndrome X
The metabolic problems I was focused on is the weight/calorie ratio. The orexin neurotransmitter neurons in the ataxin-3 mice with narcolepsy symptoms are born with the neurons then the neurons die out. What is lost is not only the orexin neurotransmitter but the connections that formed to other neurons. That is where neuro-endocrine problems just like human narcolepsy. However for example the knock out gene mice do not ever have orexins and do not have neurons connected to dieing out cells.Good pictures of mice in Masashi Yanagisawa research, Results in Narcolepsy, Hypophagia, and Obesity, Neuron, Vol.30,345-354, May,2001,Copyright 2001 by Cell Press
Sleep is a wonderful complex study
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