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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 74 to 98 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on July 25, 2010, at 21:08:09
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 20:36:40
And guess what I believe it and also six more weeks on doxycycline didn't make me feel a bit better. So what now? Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 21:14:31
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 20:36:40
>You know there is some preliminary research to suggest that continued pharmacological treatment of depression tends to make the disease more chronic.
There's also a lot of evidence that suggests untreated depression(and this may be an absence of therapy as well as medication) will result in the worsening and progression of the illness.
Look, I think we both agree that medication is far from perfect.
Did you catch the part where I said that the main reason why Zoloft doesn't work the same way it once did is because I stopped taking it, not because it just stopped working. I know people that are on Zoloft or Prozac or Lexapro and have been for over 10 years and still feel fine on them.
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 21:29:50
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 21:14:31
You are obviously a very smart person. If you really want to get better and be better for yourself in the long run, give psychodynamic individual and group therapy a shot for a good amount of time and try some alternative treatments.
I would also try to get obsessed with proper exercise if you can and start eating a super healthy well rounded diet.
The only reason I'm suggesting these things is because you seem to have given up on the what is currently available as far as medication is concerned.
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 21:32:32
In reply to Re: toxic crap » SLS, posted by bleauberry on July 25, 2010, at 20:25:37
>Drugs almost for sure didn't do you any favors, >but they didn't make you treatment resistant.
I disagree completely. What is so different from these drugs and street drugs? If you're taking SSRI's + Ritalin you're pretty much taking cocaine.
These drugs do alter the brain, and there is plenty of research to support this. I totally think long term use can lead to treatment resistance.
- Drugs altering neuroendocrine function.
Persistant alterations in neuroendrocrine
function could cause treatment resistance.
- TCA's unfavorably altering metabolic function
(abnormal insulin sensitivity can itself promote
depression)
- TCA's and SSRI's are associated with white
matter atrophy - (see 1)
- SSRI's in vitro cause motor neuron death (2)
in the study below paroxetine is much more
toxic to motor neurons than fluoxetine.
- In vitro, AD's can depleat neurotransmitter
neurotransmitter levels. The study below
links citalopram to decreased serotonin
synthesis. Also - you're not really "restoring"
dopamine by taking a stimulant with an SSRI. (3)
- Sertraline is pro-oxidant when taken with
anticonvulsants (4). Would this extend to other
SSRI's.
You can go on and on.Every drug takes its toll.
1.
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/39/3/857
2.
3.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0006797
4.
http://medind.nic.in/ibi/t04/i1/ibit04i1p43.pdf
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 21:33:45
In reply to Re: toxic crap » SLS, posted by bleauberry on July 25, 2010, at 20:25:37
>Drugs almost for sure didn't do you any favors, >but they didn't make you treatment resistant.
Oh no, its murcury poisoning, or some yeast infection right?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 21:36:09
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 21:29:50
>I would also try to get obsessed with proper >exercise if you can and start eating a super >healthy well rounded diet.
You obviously don't know me that well. I already run about 10k a day and maintain a steady diet of mostly organic foods.
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 21:39:10
In reply to Re: toxic crap » SLS, posted by bleauberry on July 25, 2010, at 20:25:37
BB I have to disagree that medication trials probably are not at all responsible for making Scott's treatment more difficult. I have already had three psychiatrists, one who I really like and respect, tell me that medication trials may have made treating me more difficult. It is theorized that too many medication trials simply leaves the brain less "fresh" than it was before the trial. If one severe mixed manic episode or psychotic episode can change brain chemistry, it makes sense to me that some bad medication trials can do the same thing.
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 22:09:17
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 21:36:09
> >I would also try to get obsessed with proper >exercise if you can and start eating a super >healthy well rounded diet.
>
> You obviously don't know me that well. I already run about 10k a day and maintain a steady diet of mostly organic foods.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>That's great, you must not be doing all that bad if you're able to run that far and that often. Since you are so concerned about your health you may want to consider the damage that running 6 miles that often can do to your body. I'm not just talking about musculoskeletal damage, I'm talking about oxidative stress and the toll you are taking on your heart and lungs. You talk about things being pro-oxidant, well that kind of exercise ends up being pro-oxidant and may do more harm than good in the long run. I suggest some weight training and more intense brief bursts of cardiovascular exercise. Interval training is one of the best things you can do for your heart and lungs.
Dude I can't even walk normally without discomfort right now let alone run, and exercise was the cornerstone of my physical and mental health for years. I think you might want to seriously consider finding a really good psychodynamic therapist and figuring out if you have any underlying self esteem issues. If you we don't truly love ourselves and our parents didn't give us what we needed in order to learn to love ourselves, there is a much greater chance that depression and anxiety will impact our daily lives. You probably won't listen to me though, why would you. Sorry man but you seem like a very stubborn dude. This may be a reason why you are not progressing to the point you would like to. Being stubborn and staying in denial are two things that will definitely hold us back.
Yep I may sound critical and judgmental, but you don't really give me any choice. You're right, I don't know you, but I'm saying it how I see it, as best I can through cybertext.
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 22:13:05
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 20:21:32
> >Then maybe you should not come on hear anymore.
>
> Executive decision?
>
> >You're just an angry bitter dude that will never >be happy.
>
> How incredably supportive.
>
> >I think you like the sadness and low self esteem >and anxiety. You don't know how to live without >it.
>
> You're right about not knowing how to live without it.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>Sorry man, I admit I got a bit frustrated and probably should not have called you a bitter angry dude that will never be happy.
You have to see where I'm coming from though. I think you are smart enough to understand that when you come on a forum like this and say that you don't care what anyone here thinks, you might get a few negative reactions. Take some responsibility man.
Posted by violette on July 25, 2010, at 22:13:38
In reply to Re: toxic crap » bleauberry, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 21:32:32
Linkadge,
Whatdayagot about long-term use of benzodiazepens? (not including tolerance, dependence/withdrawal, or large doses)?
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 22:23:07
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 20:22:30
> >I care for my brain too much to perminantly screw it up now.
>
> Too late, already is.
>
>
> Thanks bro.
>
> LinkadgeDude! I think you know what I meant. Depression and anxiety and stress all can damage your brain especially when they are chronic. I'm thinking your brain just like many of ours has suffered some kind of damage as a result of chronic depression/anxiety/stress. Even a few week or month long major manic episode can alter brain chemistry. There is evidence that hippocampal volume may shrink as a result of chronic depression/anxiety/stress. I'm sure you are already aware of this. God knows what other things happen to our brains as a result of these chronic issues. Sorry if I was sounding negative or discouraging, I think you kinda pissed me off for a minute. I stand by the things I said I just could have kept them to myself or worded things differently.
Morgan
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 25, 2010, at 23:12:55
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 15:42:39
> You are a very frustrating man to deal with
>
> - Scott> I really don't give a crap what people on this board think.
>
> LinkadgePlease be sensitive to the feelings of others.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by SLS on July 26, 2010, at 6:01:25
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 15:42:39
> If the drugs are a good tradeoff for you, then by all means keep taking them
For many people, there is very little if any "tradeoff". Therefore, it is not an either-or scenario.
The decision to take medication is an individual and complex process as one takes into consideration a great many things, including the magnitude and persistence of dysfunction, psychic pain, and pattern of chronicity or recurrence. There really aren't many new drugs that are imminently available in the development pipeline. Waiting is a gamble of time. Not waiting is a gamble of untoward effect. For some people, waiting for spontaneous remission is an unacceptable alternative based upon symptom severity and temporal pattern of illness.
I can appreciate your decision to wait.
I do apologize for the remark I made regarding your being frustrating to deal with. It was meant to be a good-natured poking. I should have considered the possibility that you would not like being poked.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 26, 2010, at 6:06:46
In reply to Re: toxic crap » SLS, posted by bleauberry on July 25, 2010, at 20:25:37
I will try to keep an open mind.
How are YOU feeling? How would you rate your present state of mental health?
Be well.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on July 26, 2010, at 10:42:06
In reply to Re: toxic crap » linkadge, posted by SLS on July 26, 2010, at 6:01:25
>For many people, there is very little if >any "tradeoff". Therefore, it is not an either->or scenario.
'many' people, doesn't really say much. Also, I don't know of any large scale clinical studies which truely seek to assess people's impressions of the drugs.
** Also, seeing as most initial antidepressant prescriptions are never refilled, I would assume that for most people, there is ultimately some tradeoff.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on July 26, 2010, at 11:07:20
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 26, 2010, at 10:42:06
> ** Also, seeing as most initial antidepressant prescriptions are never refilled,
That's quite a revelation. According to your source of information, what were the reasons for discontinuation?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 26, 2010, at 14:33:13
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 26, 2010, at 10:42:06
Here's one you may have seen:
http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102275084.html
Interestingly, only 30% discontinued antidepressants because of side-effects. I would have thought more.
In a not entirely separate issue, the authors state that "It seems likely that the majority of antidepressant recipients do not have major depression". 20% discontinued antidepressants for lack of therapeutic effect. Many these may have been responders whom discontinued prematurely. However, others may have failed simply because they did not have major depressive disorder.
This is a really interesting study. I wish the full text were available.
- Scott
Posted by violette on July 26, 2010, at 15:29:10
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 21:36:09
Lindadge,
I understand the ambivalence with medications..been there many times myself though perhaps for different reasons than you....
You have a lot going for you-your motivation and ability to exercise and eat a healtful diet surely must contribute to your wellness and functioning capacity.
I do hope you find your path to of inner peace, whatever it may be.
Take care,
Violette
Posted by ed_uk2010 on July 26, 2010, at 16:12:03
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 26, 2010, at 10:42:06
Hi Link,
May I ask whether you've ever received any kind of psychological therapy? Given your dislike of medication, it might represent the best treatment for you right now.
Posted by morgan miller on July 26, 2010, at 18:30:24
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 26, 2010, at 10:42:06
>** Also, seeing as most initial antidepressant prescriptions are never refilled, I would assume that for most people, there is ultimately some tradeoff.
Where did you get this from? Is there really a study where a good sample of people where asked what they did with their first antidepressant prescription?
Posted by linkadge on July 26, 2010, at 18:30:48
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by violette on July 26, 2010, at 15:29:10
Thank you violette, that was a kind, non judgemental comment.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 26, 2010, at 18:32:48
In reply to Re: toxic crap » linkadge, posted by ed_uk2010 on July 26, 2010, at 16:12:03
I'm not really looking for suggestions at the moment. There are many more factors involved than can be easily outlined here.
Therapy really isn't an option. I don't have the $.
Posted by Phillipa on July 26, 2010, at 19:24:22
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 26, 2010, at 18:32:48
First ad's for me never refilled. I'm only one person and the benzos "fixed" me for 40 years. Phillipa
Posted by emmanuel98 on July 26, 2010, at 20:44:32
In reply to Re: toxic crap » linkadge, posted by SLS on July 26, 2010, at 14:33:13
A large percentage of prescriptions for just about anything are not filled because people don't have insurance or can't afford the co-pays.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2010, at 22:26:37
In reply to Re: toxic crap » linkadge, posted by SLS on July 26, 2010, at 6:01:25
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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