![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 53 to 77 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on July 25, 2010, at 8:46:16
In reply to Re: toxic crap » chujoe, posted by 49er on July 25, 2010, at 7:16:52
> > When you say "it is possible to live med-free," are you making a global statement? If so, what evidence have you got to support such a statement? Or are you saying, "I have found that it is possible for me to live med-free"?
> Hmm, this is what I find interesting about communicating on an Internet board. I thought I did my best to make a controversy free statement but obviously, I didn't.
I feel the need to be vigilant against a resurgence of the idea that the mentally ill are in control of the way they think, feel, and function. For many people, medication seems to be the best currently available alternative that effectively treats their abnormal state of consciousness. I want to make sure that these alternatives remain available and that the biological nature of my illness is acknowledged. Your statement lacked a specificity for whom other options are effective. Without any qualification, it appears that you are generalizing your thesis to everyone. Too often, such statements are used by those who would have others believe that mental illness is psychological weakness, and that biological psychiatry is corrupt and ineffective.
> It seems that meds aren't working for Link and I wanted him to see that he has med free options if he chooses to pursue that route.Hopefully, Linkadge will find resolution of his depression soon. I think it would be a great learning tool for everyone at Psycho-Babble to watch this occur without drug intervention. Perhaps you can help make this happen.
- Scott
Posted by 49er on July 25, 2010, at 9:38:27
In reply to Re: toxic crap » 49er, posted by SLS on July 25, 2010, at 8:46:16
> > > When you say "it is possible to live med-free," are you making a global statement? If so, what evidence have you got to support such a statement? Or are you saying, "I have found that it is possible for me to live med-free"?
>
> > Hmm, this is what I find interesting about communicating on an Internet board. I thought I did my best to make a controversy free statement but obviously, I didn't.
>
> I feel the need to be vigilant against a resurgence of the idea that the mentally ill are in control of the way they think, feel, and function. For many people, medication seems to be the best currently available alternative that effectively treats their abnormal state of consciousness. I want to make sure that these alternatives remain available and that the biological nature of my illness is acknowledged. Your statement lacked a specificity for whom other options are effective. Without any qualification, it appears that you are generalizing your thesis to everyone. Too often, such statements are used by those who would have others believe that mental illness is psychological weakness, and that biological psychiatry is corrupt and ineffective.
>
> > It seems that meds aren't working for Link and I wanted him to see that he has med free options if he chooses to pursue that route.
>
> Hopefully, Linkadge will find resolution of his depression soon. I think it would be a great learning tool for everyone at Psycho-Babble to watch this occur without drug intervention. Perhaps you can help make this happen.
>
>
> - ScottScott,
This is the reason why I almost decided to babblemail Linkage directly instead of posting on this board.
I try very hard to qualify what I say and I think if you have read my previous postings on this board, you know darn right well that I don't think people are weak because they chose to take drugs
I really wasn't looking to turn this thread into a drugs vs. no drugs type of discussion. I was only responding to Link's concerns.
I have tried very hard to be respectful and frankly, I am very disappointed that you responded this way.
49er
Posted by violette on July 25, 2010, at 9:58:07
In reply to Re: toxic crap » 49er, posted by SLS on July 25, 2010, at 8:46:16
"For many people, medication seems to be the best currently available alternative that effectively treats their abnormal state of consciousness."
It's also true that some don't recognize the extent of or don't even know their emotionally-based problems until finding the right therapist as many therapists these days practice according to orientations that only scratch the surface, only addressing symptomology rather than the core issues that cause the symptoms.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on July 25, 2010, at 10:46:30
In reply to Re: toxic crap » ed_uk2010, posted by 49er on July 25, 2010, at 5:38:02
>I sense that even though you are very concerned about side effects, you see yourself as not having any other choice but to stay on meds.
I don't want to speak for Linkadge, but I think you could be right. I think Linkadge has three main medication options.....
1. To try to manage without medication and to look at non-medication treatment options.
2. To restrict his med choices to the meds which he feels are the least toxic.
3. To learn to accept the possibility that adverse reactions may occur, and to continue treatment in spite of it (assuming that a drug is producing beneficial effects).
I think it would be helpful for Linkadge to keep a 'mood/med diary', if he doesn't already. I've noticed that he often reports substantial changes in mood which may or may not be related to medication. Keeping a diary could help him to better establish the effects of individual meds over a longer period. Most of us suffer fluctuations in symptoms with or without medication, a diary could help Link to see the 'bigger picture', if that makes sense.
What do you think Linkadge?
Posted by SLS on July 25, 2010, at 11:08:32
In reply to Re: toxic crap » SLS, posted by 49er on July 25, 2010, at 9:38:27
> I try very hard to qualify what I say and I think if you have read my previous postings on this board, you know darn right well that I don't think people are weak because they chose to take drugs.
I apologize if my post sounded like an attack on you personally. It was not meant to be. I find you to be a very fair and responsible poster. I was trying to convey to you some of what motivates me to be so vigilant in my wanting to challenge certain statements and ideas. I was attempting to explain my behavior and not yours.
I am genuinely interested in knowing what alternatives you might suggest for people who suffer from Axis I mental illnesses that exclude drug treatment.
Again, I apologize for not composing my previous post in such a way that would make it clear that I was not referring to you personally in my references to the behavior of others.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 25, 2010, at 11:13:56
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by violette on July 25, 2010, at 9:58:07
> > "For many people, medication seems to be the best currently available alternative that effectively treats their abnormal state of consciousness."
> It's also true that some don't recognize the extent of or don't even know their emotionally-based problems until finding the right therapist
I agree.
> as many therapists these days practice according to orientations that only scratch the surface, only addressing symptomology rather than the core issues that cause the symptoms.
Does this include CBT? I guess that question is for another forum.
- Scott
Posted by 49er on July 25, 2010, at 11:43:22
In reply to Re: toxic crap » 49er, posted by SLS on July 25, 2010, at 11:08:32
>
> I apologize if my post sounded like an attack on you personally. It was not meant to be. I find you to be a very fair and responsible poster. I was trying to convey to you some of what motivates me to be so vigilant in my wanting to challenge certain statements and ideas. I was attempting to explain my behavior and not yours.
>
> I am genuinely interested in knowing what alternatives you might suggest for people who suffer from Axis I mental illnesses that exclude drug treatment.
>
> Again, I apologize for not composing my previous post in such a way that would make it clear that I was not referring to you personally in my references to the behavior of others.
>
>
> - ScottThanks Scott, I greatly appreciate what you said.
Depression non med alternatives
Supplements - Fish Oil, vitamin D, magnesium. I know I am leaving out many things and of course, you mileage will vary
Self Acceptance - It doesn't mean you like the situation but you accept what has occurred. For example, I greatly angered someone significant due to being forgetful.
Initially, I became very depressed. In the past, that would have led to a downward spiral. But I said that I had to accept what happened including any ramifications and move on.
What enabled me to move on is I downloaded this neat computer outlining program in which I am inputting various ideas that come to mind as alternatives. So when I want to ruminate on this situation, looking at this outline makes me focus and move forward.
I am not saying this is easy because it sure isn't. And again, your mileage will vary.
Oh and make sure I implemented procedures so that I don't forget something important again.
Thanks for asking.
49er
Posted by violette on July 25, 2010, at 11:51:59
In reply to Re: toxic crap » 49er, posted by SLS on July 25, 2010, at 11:08:32
"I am genuinely interested in knowing what alternatives you might suggest for people who suffer from Axis I mental illnesses that exclude drug treatment."
Another factor relevant to successful medication outcomes is that psychiatrists often don't account for Axis II traits (evidenced by prescribing medications as they do w/o adminstering psychological tests), which are very interlaced or overlap with Axis I issues; this is more relevant to the treatment resistant population as noted by literature. Anxiety and depression and psychosis are all symptoms that can be related to Axis I and Axis II issues. However, the Axis II criteria, or so it says, is only relevant to long-standing symptomology.
This is where the mental health system is deficient for those who have experienced mental illness for X number of years.
Really, I couldn't think of anyone who does not have some Axis II 'traits'..it's like astrology, the sun sign descriptions...though few, I'd suppose, would qualify for the actual Axis II 'disorders'. The DSM descriptions of those disorders only describe the extreme version of someone who'd be diagnosed as Axix II, and despite the continum, psychiatrist today ostensibly ignore Axis II issues if only medications are prescribed and a psychodynamic formulation is ommitted for the treatment plan.
Many insurance companies will not pay for treatment of Axis II disorders, therefore, people who have strong Axis II traits are given Axis I diagnoses by mental health professionals, which might adversely affect treatment. This system and stigma is truly a disserve to patients although well meaning on the part of psychiatrists.
Mental illness is mental illness regardless of the defining Axis. IMO, it's incredibly stupid (for the system) to segregate or differentiate the two and it is very stigmatizing.
No one really knows what PROPORTION of one's illness is 'biological' or 'psychological'. No one (does anyone know of how this can be proven by science today-how can anyone prove even with brain scans what proportion of the illness is caused by emotion??) At least I've never heard of the various scientists or psychological schools of thought agree on this or prove their particular conclusion in terms of disproving other views.
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 12:11:12
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by violette on July 25, 2010, at 9:58:07
> "For many people, medication seems to be the best currently available alternative that effectively treats their abnormal state of consciousness."
>
> It's also true that some don't recognize the extent of or don't even know their emotionally-based problems until finding the right therapist as many therapists these days practice according to orientations that only scratch the surface, only addressing symptomology rather than the core issues that cause the symptoms.I agree. I do believe as many of you already know that the majority of mental illness is rooted in both biology and psyche.
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 12:13:41
In reply to Re: toxic crap » 49er, posted by ed_uk2010 on July 25, 2010, at 10:46:30
> >I sense that even though you are very concerned about side effects, you see yourself as not having any other choice but to stay on meds.
>
> I don't want to speak for Linkadge, but I think you could be right. I think Linkadge has three main medication options.....
>
> 1. To try to manage without medication and to look at non-medication treatment options.
>
> 2. To restrict his med choices to the meds which he feels are the least toxic.
>
> 3. To learn to accept the possibility that adverse reactions may occur, and to continue treatment in spite of it (assuming that a drug is producing beneficial effects).
>
> I think it would be helpful for Linkadge to keep a 'mood/med diary', if he doesn't already. I've noticed that he often reports substantial changes in mood which may or may not be related to medication. Keeping a diary could help him to better establish the effects of individual meds over a longer period. Most of us suffer fluctuations in symptoms with or without medication, a diary could help Link to see the 'bigger picture', if that makes sense.
>
> What do you think Linkadge?I think those are the best 3 options to explore for Linkage and many of us.
Posted by violette on July 25, 2010, at 12:26:02
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by violette on July 25, 2010, at 11:51:59
Anyway, this article considers some things I'm trying to say here...I think the exclusion of psychology by psychiatrists is detrimental to medication outcomes for many people, and that psychodynamic formulations that include looking at the psychological side as opposed to only biological means, can improve treatment outcomes.
http://jppr.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/7/1/35
For my situation, I was able to repress and adapt to my childhood trauma for a considerable portion of my adult years. When my ego could no longer contain the emotional trauma-I got depression and anxiety symptomology, which basically matched the description of PTSD with a delayed onset, which was triggered by events-one of which I never would have connected to my illness if I had continued meds instead of reading about psychology. This was because, in part, psychiatrists only prescribed me medications, which delayed my recovery.
And this leaves me wondering how traumatic events during childhood or teen years, even seemingly non-traumatic events such as the intrusive parent, effect others here whose treatment plans only include medications?
Even though this article is geared towards PTSD, PTSD from childhood issues was not defined until after the Vietnam War--when it was recognized that from orphanages had higher rates PTSD than vets, with the same symptomology as those Vietnam Vets, while having lower recovery rates (see Wiki on that one). And 'PTSD' can manifest as a continum...like any symptomology.
=================================
"Currently, the symptom-oriented organization of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual13 and the increasing availability of medications and behavioral approaches to treat symptoms directly may deflect clinicians from exploring the meaning of recent precipitating events and the complex relationship of such events to their patients' symptoms. Pharmacologic treatments, while often very helpful, are limited by side effects, incomplete results, and lack of acceptance by those patients who prefer to solve problems more definitively in psychotherapy.14 Cognitive-behavioral therapies, although reported to be efficacious in Vietnam veterans and rape victims,15 consist of discrete treatments for specific symptoms and do not easily lend themselves to application in more complex clinical situations. In addition, there has been little systematic investigation of what works best in whom.16 As with pharmacotherapy,some patients refuse to participate, and others may find such treatments ineffective or insufficient. At the other end of the spectrum, inexperienced clinicians armed with the PTSD diagnosis may overzealously explore traumas psychodynamically without adequate attention to the vulnerable state of the patient's ego functioning,17 thus overwhelming the patient's capacity to cope."
"Initial psychodynamic assessment usually takes place during approximately three 1-hour sessions. While exploring the patient's current problems, past treatment, early development, and social relationships, the interviewer also assesses mental status both indirectly and, when necessary, by asking direct questions. Although keeping in mind areas to cover, the interviewer is not limited in advance to prestructured questions and leaves time for problems and reactions to emerge spontaneously. In addition to focusing on specific symptoms or behaviors such as those listed in DSM-IV, the interviewer attends to patterns of symptom occurrence and recurrence. Using this information, as well as concurrent observations of the patient's behavior and affects, the interviewer evaluates the patient's past and current ego functioning. When the symptom picture suggests acute regression from a relatively high level of functioning but the relationship of symptoms to recent events remains obscure, an extended evaluation, combined with a trial of psychodynamic therapy, may be necessary for more definitive diagnosis and treatment."
"Despite difficulties studying psychodynamic treatments, a controlled study demonstrated that psychodynamic psychotherapy was as effective as hypnotherapy and trauma desensitization for PTSD when treated patients were compared with wait-listed control subjects.18 Patients treated with psychodynamic psychotherapy showed symptomatic improvement somewhat later than other treated patients, but they showed unexpected, and comparably greater, beneficial changes in personality traits."
"Recent reports document that posttraumatic reactions may be long lasting if not treated effectively. Rose,19 surveying the literature, found that brief supportive psychotherapy for adult survivors of sexual assault had frequently been inadequate to deal with persistent symptoms, even in patients with no preexisting psychopathology. Nader et al.20 described the considerable degree to which children remained symptomatic 14 months following an acute disaster. Terr21 prospectively studied children exposed to a day-long schoolbus kidnapping that involved no physical harm. The children showed symptoms of posttraumatic stress 4 years later, despite brief psychotherapy. Kessler et al.22 found that although treated patients fared better than others initially, one-third of all people with an index episode of PTSD failed to recover even after many years. These data suggest a pressing need for further research into the efficacy and methodology of psychodynamic psychotherapy with traumatized patients.
In this article I will focus on patients who come to treatment with acute symptoms following specific recent experiences and who have functioned at a relatively high level prior to the onset of these symptoms. Although the ego psychological approach to treating patients who complain of severe, chronic symptoms is beyond the scope of this article, the same approach can be clinically useful in understanding such patients.
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 12:44:16
In reply to Re: toxic crap » SLS, posted by 49er on July 25, 2010, at 11:43:22
49er, what other alternative treatments do you have in mind? There are sooooo many.
I don't think there is an alternative to medication for many people unfortunately, at least at this point. I do think many alternative treatments like fish oil should be considered as an adjunct by everyone with mental illness. Some do have negative reactions to fish oil unfortunately for some odd reason. I personally think everyone, mentally ill or physically ill should be taking fish oil if they don't react negatively to it.
I know Linkage mentioned thinking that fish oil was helping him. At least something that is healthy and non-toxic is helping.
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 15:42:39
In reply to Re: toxic crap » 49er, posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 12:44:16
Do I feel better on meds???...define better?
Better in that I can't feel pain; in that emotions and drives are blunted; in that I am filled with a extremely shallow unidimentional sense of 'well being';..yes. But I feel worse too, in that I feel detached from myself - like my mind is being controlled and that everything I experience is a watered down version of its former self.
Off meds, sure I feel low, pessimistic and anxious but there is still (somehow) more richness to life. Somehow, I feel more in control.
Sure SSRI's worked in my adolecence, but as I grow older I have started to have more complex thought patterns. There are parts of me, I just don't want the drugs to shut off any longer. Thats why most AD's make me feel worse. Its not the akathesia, its the fact that they cheapen the quality of life for me. They take a way too much. Perhaps, I like feeling pain.
I keep thinking of the movie, Ordinary People. Like when the psychiatrist says to Conrad, "if you can feel pain, you can't expect to feel anything else". Nowdays the whole family would be on SSRI's. But that woundn't make make for a good plot, now would it? Thats the way I am on drugs, a life with no plot.
I really don't give a crap what people on this board think. You should all know that by now. If the drugs are a good tradeoff for you, then by all means keep taking them.
Maybe I'll feel better tomorrow, maybe I'll feel worse. Thats about the only thing that makes life worth living, the *capacity for change*. On meds there is no change. Its the same damn shallow flaky mood day in day out.
Thats why most of us are on this board. We are just looking for ways that things might change.
I care for my brain too much to perminantly screw it up now. Better meds will come out. Ones that don't demand so high stakes; and when they do, I want to be fully there to experience it.
Messing around with this garbage for too much longer is just going to make me more resistant (yeah, a bold an ultimately unsubstantiated opinion I realize, but one I believe). My neural pathways for rich human experience will have become so atrophied by the continual bombardment from the daily exposure to ultraphysiological levels of the neurotransmitter du jour.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk2010 on July 25, 2010, at 16:05:08
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 15:42:39
Hi Link,
>Better in that I can't feel pain; in that emotions and drives are blunted; in that I am filled with a extremely shallow unidimentional sense of 'well being'
I understand what you're saying, but does that apply to all current meds? For example, does it apply to the methylphenidate that you've taken lately?
>the neurotransmitter du jour
Haha, I like that one :) It's foolish to reduce human emotions and behavior down to a few neurotransmitters when there are actually many more transmitters, modulators, enzymes and receptors that we don't even consider.
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 18:49:24
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 15:42:39
>If the drugs are a good tradeoff for you, then by all means keep taking them.
Many people simply feel normal on their medication, full of emotion and lust for life. I experienced that on Zoloft for many years. Was it perfect? No. But then again life is not perfect.
>I really don't give a crap what people on this board think.
Then maybe you should not come on hear anymore. Do you care about what you friends and family think or how they feel? Probably not. Sad. You're just an angry bitter dude that will never be happy. I think you like the sadness and low self esteem and anxiety. You don't know how to live without it.
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 18:50:29
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 15:42:39
>I care for my brain too much to perminantly screw it up now.
Too late, already is.
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 19:18:37
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 18:50:29
BTW, not everyone experiences an impairment in the ability to think in certain ways. I experienced just as much an ability or more to think deeply, critically, abstractly, and analytically while medicated on both Prozac and Zoloft in the past. I simply felt "normal", whatever that means. And I functioned at a very high level. Believe it or not, and you will NOT be able to see this or come to this conclusion on Psycho-Babble, there are many many people functioning at a very high level and thinking very clearly on antidepressant medications.
For me, the chronic depression and anxiety and horrific mixed episodes(which have all occurred while not taking medications) have done the real damage. Though I will admit, with this past 2 years of medication trials, I do feel somewhat compromised. Like Scott said, medication trials, especially when the wrong medications are prescribed, can do some damage and change the way you respond to future treatments. All of this could have been avoided by me if I had just accepted that I was probably better off on Zoloft and continuing to do things the way I was doing them, instead of feeling like something was wrong with taking a foreign substance that may be toxic to my body which was not made to be exposed to it. That was part of my reasoning for getting off Zoloft. Bad bad reasoning. I didn't realize how well I was doing and that I really did not experience any negative side effects. I took a few months of giving Zoloft a shot at the right dose but I eventually was side effect free and stayed that way for years.
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 20:21:32
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 18:49:24
>Then maybe you should not come on hear anymore.
Executive decision?
>You're just an angry bitter dude that will never >be happy.
How incredably supportive.
>I think you like the sadness and low self esteem >and anxiety. You don't know how to live without >it.
You're right about not knowing how to live without it.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 20:22:30
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 18:50:29
>I care for my brain too much to perminantly screw it up now.
Too late, already is.
Thanks bro.Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on July 25, 2010, at 20:25:37
In reply to Re: toxic crap » linkadge, posted by SLS on July 25, 2010, at 4:49:19
I feel strongly in my bones, my soul, and my spirit, that what you say here is wrong. You are not treatment resistant. Drugs almost for sure didn't do you any favors, but they didn't make you treatment resistant.
The problem is, the right stuff hasn't been tried. The only things tried fill up the very limited briefcase of psychiatric meds. That, to me, is a good start, but only a start. The time spent at the starting line has been exaggerated long past its time. Time to look beyond the psych toolbox. What else causes depression besides serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, glutamate, issues? Forget those neurotransmitters. Forget about manipulating them. If that was going to work, it would have already. The writing is on the wall plain to see. Instead focus on what is getting in their way, what is screwing with their function. clogging them, corrupting them. It's something else.
All I know for sure is that when you try the right supplement, plant, or medicine that targets the real problem, you will quickly be saying you can't remember how long it's been since you felt this good. It is not likely, in my opinion, to come from the psychiatric toolbox. Something in there might be helpful, but that's about it.
What about ssri+ritalin? ssri+ritalin+tca?
I don't think lamictal is doing you any favors. It did not prevent return of depression longer than 9 months in clinical trials. Mood stabilizers by definition are going to blunt emotions.
I only say these things because of my own experiences. Like you and everyone else here, I had been fighting depression for 15 years on all kinds of meds and combos. Still ended up in the hospital and ECT. Still depressed, very treatment resistant. So imagine my total surprise when I felt alive and 30 years younger, like before depression ever hit, while on doxycycline. I didn't even know why at the time. Same thing on DMSA. I knew about the metals, but I had not a clue how cleaning some of them out would just open up a lot of clogged receptors and you could practically feel it happening.
It aint just me. There are a whole bunch out there just like me. They just don't know it. Or they don't believe it. Or they want proof before doing anything. As if they had any proof of anything else they've done thus far. Or instead of picking some starting point they say forget it. Or they got tested 10 years ago and nothing was found, as if tests are somehow gods that never miss a thing. And so they stay sick and wonder why.
> > The medical community? Are you certain that what they've done to you is Kosher?
>
> What they have done to me through the well-intentioned misapplication of drugs is to very likely produce permanent treatment resistance. This is a reality that I must deal with every day. Somehow, I do. It may not be logical, but it seems to be rather human.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 20:36:40
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 19:18:37
Ok so what? You once responded to zoloft, and you felt "normal". Once upon a time I responded to citalopram. I felt "normal". Now I no longer get the effect. Is this proof that the drugs are so wonderful - that they once worked? Don't you get it? Thats what I am talking about. The drugs don't work anymore. You know prozac poopout is really not that uncommon.
Who cares if a drug *once* had a good effect. I'm sure cocaine *once* had a good effect on every addict - its the memory of the "good effect" that keeps the addict coming back for more.
You know there is some preliminary research to suggest that continued pharmacological treatment of depression tends to make the disease more chronic.
Posted by Phillipa on July 25, 2010, at 21:08:09
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 20:36:40
And guess what I believe it and also six more weeks on doxycycline didn't make me feel a bit better. So what now? Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 21:14:31
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 20:36:40
>You know there is some preliminary research to suggest that continued pharmacological treatment of depression tends to make the disease more chronic.
There's also a lot of evidence that suggests untreated depression(and this may be an absence of therapy as well as medication) will result in the worsening and progression of the illness.
Look, I think we both agree that medication is far from perfect.
Did you catch the part where I said that the main reason why Zoloft doesn't work the same way it once did is because I stopped taking it, not because it just stopped working. I know people that are on Zoloft or Prozac or Lexapro and have been for over 10 years and still feel fine on them.
Posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 21:29:50
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by morgan miller on July 25, 2010, at 21:14:31
You are obviously a very smart person. If you really want to get better and be better for yourself in the long run, give psychodynamic individual and group therapy a shot for a good amount of time and try some alternative treatments.
I would also try to get obsessed with proper exercise if you can and start eating a super healthy well rounded diet.
The only reason I'm suggesting these things is because you seem to have given up on the what is currently available as far as medication is concerned.
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2010, at 21:32:32
In reply to Re: toxic crap » SLS, posted by bleauberry on July 25, 2010, at 20:25:37
>Drugs almost for sure didn't do you any favors, >but they didn't make you treatment resistant.
I disagree completely. What is so different from these drugs and street drugs? If you're taking SSRI's + Ritalin you're pretty much taking cocaine.
These drugs do alter the brain, and there is plenty of research to support this. I totally think long term use can lead to treatment resistance.
- Drugs altering neuroendocrine function.
Persistant alterations in neuroendrocrine
function could cause treatment resistance.
- TCA's unfavorably altering metabolic function
(abnormal insulin sensitivity can itself promote
depression)
- TCA's and SSRI's are associated with white
matter atrophy - (see 1)
- SSRI's in vitro cause motor neuron death (2)
in the study below paroxetine is much more
toxic to motor neurons than fluoxetine.
- In vitro, AD's can depleat neurotransmitter
neurotransmitter levels. The study below
links citalopram to decreased serotonin
synthesis. Also - you're not really "restoring"
dopamine by taking a stimulant with an SSRI. (3)
- Sertraline is pro-oxidant when taken with
anticonvulsants (4). Would this extend to other
SSRI's.
You can go on and on.Every drug takes its toll.
1.
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/39/3/857
2.
3.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0006797
4.
http://medind.nic.in/ibi/t04/i1/ibit04i1p43.pdf
Linkadge
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