![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 42 to 66 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by Green Willow on January 10, 2010, at 13:15:09
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » Green Willow, posted by tea on January 9, 2010, at 23:28:29
> My dreams are wierd though. Lst time I got mugged just after I walked around a corner in the dark , then I woke up:) (I like the wake up bit)
>Mine are weird too. Usually hopeless circumstances. A common theme is being stranded on a bridge or island with a herd of cattle and surrounded by a rushing river. Now that's weird! I agree the best part is waking up. Wish I could get back to regular real world hours. What time do you go to sleep? What time do you take your ldn? GW
Posted by tea on January 10, 2010, at 15:58:43
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » tea, posted by Green Willow on January 10, 2010, at 12:54:06
> > My dreams are wierd though. Lst time I got mugged just after I walked around a corner in the dark , then I woke up:) (I like the wake up bit)
> >
>
> Mine are weird too. Usually hopeless circumstances. A common theme is being stranded on a bridge or island with a herd of cattle and surrounded by a rushing river. Now that's weird! I agree the best part is waking up. Wish I could get back to regular real world hours. What time do you go to sleep? What time do you take your ldn? GW
>
>
I seem to take the ldn anywhere in the last hr b4 bed. I mean to try take either about 3 hrs b4, as I seem to get sleepy fairly fast but then more alert for a couple of hrs, its just recalling to take it then! I also am unsure of taking it near my thryoid meds.. if that stuffs it up or not:)
I go to sleep anywhere between 9PM (last night)- got up at 8.30AM today (but didn't take any ldn last night...still getting over the previous 2 days), and about 11.30PM (night b4).
I usually go about 10.30PM-11PM I guess. Sometimes though I'll go every early.
I usually drift off(but don't usually sleep) in middle of day for up to couple of hours too!
When I take 3mg, I so far have always slept in to 9AM to 10AM ish..fairly soundly in last part of morning. I'm trialling a lower dose at present. Still get headaches though. Still have a very mild headache from ldn night b4 last, and some effects still.
I really don't have any idea how ldn works.
I too have read like you, especially lately. Everything I can find on the web. I've ordered (last week b4 Elroy mentioned it) that book on the ldn "The Promise of Low Dose Naltrexone Therapy", as I have "chatted" with Elaine(http://www.elaine-moore.com/About/ElaineMooresProfile/tabid/58/Default.aspx) on forums over the years and she is credible and astute, as well as a friendly lovely person. I don't think there would be more in the book than on the web and forums, as that is where she would get the info for her book from, but perhaps it might help if I give it to a doc to read, and perhaps having it all together may help me work it out!
I doubt receptors would be totally blocked even in the high dose, and also I don't know enough to comment on whether a lower dose would be eliminated much sooner than a higher dose, not even sure if its a "known" as yet.
Posted by tea on January 10, 2010, at 17:16:22
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » tea, posted by Green Willow on January 10, 2010, at 12:54:06
http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/full/173/1/42
in support of my comment of non TOTAL blockage of receptors
Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2010, at 20:03:58
In reply to Lar ? Toxicology question?(if time + interest ), posted by tea on January 10, 2010, at 17:16:22
Tea haven't seen Lar on here in months. Phillipa
Posted by tea on January 10, 2010, at 22:07:05
In reply to Re: Lar ? Toxicology question?(if time + interest ) » tea, posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2010, at 20:03:58
Posted by tea on January 11, 2010, at 2:34:28
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by casse on January 9, 2010, at 13:39:27
http://www.ahsta.com/Features/ElaineMoore/LDNDosing/tabid/205/Default.aspx
Posted by tea on January 11, 2010, at 15:46:39
In reply to LDN dosing » casse, posted by tea on January 11, 2010, at 2:34:28
yesterday I still didn't take any ;ldn, still had a mild headache from 2 days previous and started a cough and sneezing in the afternoon. Still sneezing this morning. I woke at 6Am though (no ldn for 3 days now), and got up and did some ezrecise, so energy levsl recovering. Headache lifting but still there. Googled and found that sneezing and cough is a side effect of ldn- surprised how this fits in really.
http://drjuanaceves.com/?page_id=58
Happened to me though,as I have never sneezed like this before. Cough is dry with a very slight dry tickle in throat still (barely there) but no cough this morning. Also never had anything like this before. not bad, just wonder why and how it fits.
Also found yesterday that that racing heartbeat I had a few months ago was also likely an ldn side effect, and the ldn can effect you for months after you stop it somehow. The endorphin levels do remain raised for a while apparently.The forums don't seem to talk about the side effects much? So it may be rare or maybe they are "selective" in their posts. One forum I looked at always went on about vitD , another about candida. I found also that ldn can seem to bring on candida, or at least make you get it easier? All strange.
Pleased to have found some here prepared to discuss the side effects.
tea
Posted by Phillipa on January 11, 2010, at 20:25:40
In reply to LDN dosing » casse, posted by tea on January 11, 2010, at 2:34:28
Tea wouldn't help my hasimotos as no goiter or idodine. Phillipa
Posted by Elroy on January 12, 2010, at 0:57:58
In reply to Lar ? Toxicology question?(if time + interest ), posted by tea on January 10, 2010, at 17:16:22
> http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/full/173/1/42
>
> in support of my comment of non TOTAL blockage of receptors
************************************************
You are comparing APPLES and ORANGES.Naltrexone (full strength) operates in a fully different manner than LDN. The "inventor" of Naltrexone, in doing some further studying of the Immune System and Endorphin production realized that LDN does approximately the OPPOSITE of full strength LDN.
Also this study:
"Opioid Antagonist Naltrexone Disrupts Feedback Interaction between µ and {delta} Opioid Receptors in Splenocytes to Prevent Alcohol Inhibition of NK Cell Function" is a study in using the full strength levels of Naltrexone as a potential aid in alcohol addiction / withrawal recovery. Most tests have shown it to be only 25 - 50% effective in that regard.
That is because alcohol is NOT an opiate and Naltrexone is specifically chemically designed to shut down Endorphin production produced by the taking of opiates (heroin, morphine, opium, etc.).
You take full-strength Naltrexone around the clock to prevent from getting high when taking opiates. That is why it generally only works well in a controlled environment (like a sanitorium) as patients will intentionally miss doses in order to get high again with opiates.
Full strength Naltrexone - once again - stops your body from getting special higher level Endorphins created and secreted by the taking of Opiates - not necessarily ALL of your body's "general, basic, day-to-day Endorphins").LDN on the other hand - at the right dosage levels - does stop all normal Endorphin products (as well as highly dilute Endorphins produced by opiates such as morphine pain killers - which is why they caution, for example, cancer patients on morphine for pain to NOT take LDN until a non opiate pain killer med can be established (if possible).
I - for example - take Darvon for my Cushing's recovery joint and muscle pains and aches and the LDN doesn't dilute its effects at all... because Darvon is NOT an opiate and does not work by creating special higher intensity endorphins as pain killers.
So there is no "support of [your] comment of non TOTAL blockage of receptors"... as, like I said, you are comparing apples and oranges.
Reading up a LOT of material on a subject (and it appears that you are mixing regular Naltrexone right in with Low Dose Naltrexone in your research - in and of itself doesn't mean that you necessarily understand the specific details, processes, and functions about which you are reading.
Hint: In researching on LDN, if you come to any article or study or clinical trial that is discussing Naltrexone versus LDN, completely skip it... or you will simply ended up even more confused.
Also, I boosted my LDN levels from 1.5 mg to 3.0 mg Sunday (i think it was) and by today have noted a very strong difference... still not what I fully expect but my doc wants me to stay at this level for two weeks before moving to 4.5 mg --- but it is my belief that it will be at 4.5 mg where I begin to notice the full effects of LDN.
Also... I have had ZERO side effects from LDN.
No headaches (in fact it cleared up a steady headache that i would get every morning since the flank pain started with the - suspected - kidney area inflammation).
No "weird dreams".
Vivid dreams... Yes. But I have had vivid dreams ever since I started taking Melatonin (1mg) regularly) and the current ones are no more vivid than the ones that I had prior to LDN).
The only side effect that i notice is that if I take the LDN at 10 PM and end up staying up until 1 AM (like on the computer, I'll feel somewhat "crappy" -- which is at it should be as the LDN is shutting down my Endorphin production... I should wait and take it JUST BEFORE the time I actually go to bed.
Posted by Elroy on January 12, 2010, at 0:58:27
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » Elroy, posted by tea on January 8, 2010, at 19:00:07
> >You have it wrong.
> >I no longer HAVE the highly elevated cortisol levels
> >
>
>
> Gee I hate coomunication over the net.. I did understand you, my comment.
>
> "I agree that adjusting to the lowered cortisol will take many months too."
>
>
> Same as you are saying :) I do realise you now have normal cortisol levels after being high for too long.
>
> I also went thru that PN and tinnitus (severe). For me though the tinnitus was the result of the car accident.
> Until treatment with thryoid meds though I had that cold.. ven colder than you aas I felt cold to touch after a few years, then skin on extremities would turn bluish (all went when on thryoid meds, BUT the thyroid meds started the PN. After whet you are saying it may be due to the lowering of cortisol (thyroid meds seem to lower cortisol, I presume by the T3 using it up myself as that's what it felt like) but its not a known. That's when my severe PN started.
> However I got over that after a couple of years of B1. I tried B12 but that exaserbated it, also B6 greater than 20mg a day also increased it, but the solution , for me at least, was B1 (Thiamin HCl injections) or after I was almost receovered Benfothiamin together with a small amount of B12 (neocytamen injections) or methylcobalamin sublinguals as well as some B6 (P5P form as well as regular B6 and a balanced B including inositol and biotin and B2 especially.. but not too high! Long trial.. may have just been coincidence but seemed to work. BTW I doubt it would work for you as low B1 creates extreme fatigue and lack of weight gain, even to loss(to death) for extreme cases. I wasn't extreme, just the fatigue and lack of weight gain and the Ms type symptoms including the PN, but also the balance and many other symptoms.
> I just get occasional PN now.
> After what you have stated about the high cortisol being lowered causing this??? I think maybe that is why I started this PN with the thyroid meds (lower cortisol than body used to?) It was a rare reaction, but it seems to fit with your experience maybe?
> Did you have this PN when your cortisol was high or did it beigin after your cortisol was lowered?
> If anything it shows it will go away!
>
> Ldn seems to help me with urine frequency(stops), balance, hand eye coordination, handwriting improved--still not back, typing skills..hitting keys better now(still not good though!, but most of all it helps me relax my jaw ..something I've had difficulty doing since the accident and to breathe relaxed.. something I was finding immpossible to do although improving. So ldn seems to decrease "anxiety" in me (if that is the correct term for it! I still get headaches for up to 17 hrs even with a tiny dose though ..and the above effects for a couple fom days (wearss off 3rd day a lot but not completely). Strange isn't it?
> BTW I'm fairly small and female.
>
>***********************************************
RE: "After what you have stated about the high cortisol being lowered causing this???"Once again, NO....
The PN was one of the FIRST symptoms caused by the highly elevated Cortisol. in mid 2002, I began noticing periodic PN, periodic "background anxiety", mild but constant insomnia (handled by Ambien), and some weight gain and water retention (though always a heavy work-out enthusiast).
That was the first noticeable symptoms of the Cushings/hypercortisolism.
Then in about May of 2004 - over just about a 3 week time period, the major ones came crashing down. That was when my cortisol levels apparently (from their calculations as we didn't stat measuring until August of 2004) probably jumped from around 80 (ref. range of 4 - 60) up to around 350 - 450 (over 500 at one Lab where their ref. range was 5 - 100). Specifically the PN became very severe during that high cortisol time period.
Once I went on the NIH Regimen, many of my several symptoms disappeared completely. Others just reduced by some (25 - 30%) and others by a lot (50 - 70%). The PN only initially reduced by about 25%... but kept reducing in intensity slowly but surely as the cortisol levels came down.
Even after cortisol levels hit normal (back in August) still have some very mild tinnitus and some PN - but note that it continues to decline in intensity AND it seems to be declining faster since I went onto the LDN Therapy. As does the Tinnitus and the extremely cold feet sensation feeling... which is probably the strongest of my original Cushing's symptoms. I still have considerable flank pain form where a doctor put me on too many BP meds - plus a Pulse reducing med... all at the same time and all at maximum doses - which apparently caused some massive inflammation of the right kidney and surrounding area.
I believe that it - as well as the non Cushing's Respiratory Problem (ended up being a fungal infection that went undiagnosed for 7 months and then was over-treated and though the fungal infection is completely gone there is still some inflammation there - though not near as much as a few months ago and LDN seems to be helping it). I think that in these cases the LDN is aiding mainly by causing the Immune System to optimize much faster than it normally would, just on its own.
Posted by Elroy on January 12, 2010, at 1:09:47
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions » Green Willow, posted by tea on January 9, 2010, at 23:28:29
> When I've tried 1.5 mg to 3mg dose I have detailed dreams as well ( can even recall the glass in windows and steps and paint, the asphalt?). I also can't get up and sleep thru to about then as well. I don't have any delayed sleep normally though... no idea why it occurs though
> My dreams are wierd though. Lst time I got mugged just after I walked around a corner in the dark , then I woke up:) (I like the wake up bit)
>*************************************************
My doctor - and everything that i have read from the experts - have indicated that the minimal side effects from LDN (and vivid or weird dreams IS one of the few) usually don't last longer than a week... if you stay with the program.
Many people will take it a couple of nights. Get worried about the weird dreams and then stop for a couple of nights and then start again for three days (having the weird / vivid dreams again) and stop again for a few days - or lower their dose BELOW the 1.5 mg cut off - and then wonder why that side effect continues.
I have taken many, many meds over by quest for treating my Cushing's (plus also in some improper doctors' prescriptions and then prescriptions in trying to reverse the problems that they initiated (!!!) and compared to side effects of most meds that I have taken, LDN is like eating an M&M (to me).
It was like with Xanax XR. I had some type of strong-to-severe side effect on every AD that I was put on (for anxiety yet, not for depression) and finally put on Xanax XR (1mg twice a day - 6 years ago) and it not only immediately helped my anxiety but also cut my tinnitus down by about 1/2...and then I end up at NIH Hospital on a special study about MY form of Cushing's and their recommended regimen for slowing down my hyperactive HPA Axis which is resulting in hypercortisol (and hopefully re-setting the malfunctioning feedback loop) is 2 mg of Xanax XR FOUR times a day... and I have not had one side effect from either dosage (other than the NIH Regimen has been working great on my hypercortisol problem and if my normalized cortisol levels stay that way (since August) until about May or so then we can start weaning off of - or at least way down - on the Xanax XR....
Anyway, I believe that the dreams are simply proof positive that the LDN is working. I would resume the3.0 mg and work through the weird dreams and let the LDN get busy repairing your Immune System, neurological problems, damaged nerves, etc., etc.
Posted by tea on January 12, 2010, at 2:54:50
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by casse on January 9, 2010, at 13:39:27
http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18073&st=120&gopid=375384&#entry375384
this post suggests (they also don't know)
http://www.causeof.org/endorphins.htm
Site suggests:Serotonin Levels
Endorphins decrease serotonin levels.
"Endorphin- and serotonine-metabolism are closely related, and opioid peptides can directly inhibit serotonine release. (23) Therefore, besides sleeplessness, opioid peptides can also cause depressions. In chronically depressed people, free endorphin level is 3 fold higher (24) (because part of endorphin receptors have been destroyed)"
Is this information correct...?
If so LDN takers need to watch out for decreasing levels of Serotonin ?!
I too have no idea!
I do know you should be very cautious when you first try ldn as I experienced pretty scary depression that night, and first few nights ,
I think ldn is more powerful than it is considered and does at least in me have side effects. I've been reading of many side efefcts and it expalins many of the things I've experienced lately and hadn't linked with the ldn.. but couold be coincidence.. like itchy skin even?
Posted by tea on January 12, 2010, at 3:19:10
In reply to Re: LDN Low Dose Naltrexone Questions, posted by Elroy on January 12, 2010, at 1:09:47
>My doctor - and everything that i have read from the experts - have indicated that the minimal side effects from LDN (and vivid or weird dreams IS one of the few) usually don't last longer than a week... if you stay with the program.
I have to agree with that, it sure seems to be saying that everywhere. That's why I don't understand:-) Thanks for your detailed replies about the hypercortisol problem you had.. so I still do not understand why I had the PN etc, but its almost gone now anyway:-) That was 2001 to 2008 or so...but it DID frecover whatever it was from.
Posted by tea on January 12, 2010, at 3:21:42
In reply to sneezing, cough, posted by tea on January 11, 2010, at 15:46:39
> yesterday I still didn't take any ;ldn, still had a mild headache from 2 days previous and started a cough and sneezing in the afternoon. Still sneezing this morning. I woke at 6Am though (no ldn for 3 days now), and got up and did some ezrecise, so energy levsl recovering. Headache lifting but still there. Googled and found that sneezing and cough is a side effect of ldn- surprised how this fits in really.
> http://drjuanaceves.com/?page_id=58
> Happened to me though,as I have never sneezed like this before. Cough is dry with a very slight dry tickle in throat still (barely there) but no cough this morning. Also never had anything like this before. not bad, just wonder why and how it fits.
> Also found yesterday that that racing heartbeat I had a few months ago was also likely an ldn side effect, and the ldn can effect you for months after you stop it somehow. The endorphin levels do remain raised for a while apparently.The forums don't seem to talk about the side effects much? So it may be rare or maybe they are "selective" in their posts. One forum I looked at always went on about vitD , another about candida. I found also that ldn can seem to bring on candida, or at least make you get it easier? All strange.
> Pleased to have found some here prepared to discuss the side effects.
> tea
>
>next ady sneezed on waking for a while,cough gone. Sneezing went within a couple of hours as did residual headache and fatigue gradually lifted (that was day 4 off ldn)
Posted by tea on January 12, 2010, at 3:28:46
In reply to LDN and depression » casse, posted by tea on January 12, 2010, at 2:54:50
http://www.digitalwell.washington.edu/rcuwtvdownload/smc_mchh_fibrom_ipodv.m4v
good video, mentions ldn, but no new info.. just a small study of 10 people
mentions pain and CNS alterations
Posted by Elroy on January 12, 2010, at 9:40:08
In reply to LDN and depression » casse, posted by tea on January 12, 2010, at 2:54:50
> http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=18073&st=120&gopid=375384&#entry375384
>
> this post suggests (they also don't know)
> http://www.causeof.org/endorphins.htm
>
>
> Site suggests:
>
> Serotonin Levels
>
> Endorphins decrease serotonin levels.
>
> "Endorphin- and serotonine-metabolism are closely related, and opioid peptides can directly inhibit serotonine release. (23) Therefore, besides sleeplessness, opioid peptides can also cause depressions. In chronically depressed people, free endorphin level is 3 fold higher (24) (because part of endorphin receptors have been destroyed)"
>
> Is this information correct...?
>
> If so LDN takers need to watch out for decreasing levels of Serotonin ?!
>
>
> I too have no idea!
> I do know you should be very cautious when you first try ldn as I experienced pretty scary depression that night, and first few nights ,
> I think ldn is more powerful than it is considered and does at least in me have side effects. I've been reading of many side efefcts and it expalins many of the things I've experienced lately and hadn't linked with the ldn.. but couold be coincidence.. like itchy skin even?
>
************************************************Please post links showing "many side effects" of LDN. I would greatly enjoy reading them.
The three top level experts (2 USA and 1 UK) have consistently reported ONLY "weird dreams", "vivid dreams" (for "up to a week") and "periodic occasional mild leg spasms" (only in MS patients - and then only for first 2 - 4 days) as side effects for LDN.
In fact, LDN has been one of the extremely rare drugs that has been legally classified by the FDA as being in the category of drugs that "Do No Harm"!!!! And the FDA reports that on a per capita basis that LDN has "fewer side effects than normal doses of aspirin" and that LDN has a "significantly better safety record than aspirin at normal doses"!!!
I think that you take so many multiples of meds and switch from one thing to the other and throw various supplement items in that you try just briefly (like ONE bottle of Lactoferrin??? Lacctoferrin or "The Milk Cure" takes a minimum of four weeks to be effective and has to be done under very controlled conditions with no other major supps or meds to seriously work), that, well, you really have NO idea as to what is causing what symptom or side effect is being caused by what!
But what you posted was simply to a web page of a Forum where people state their opinions (*) and can post links to studies, etc. The ACTUAL STUDY that you (apparently) are referring to is - and is quoted in the Forum page that you posted - is actually located at:
http://www.causeof.org/endorphins.htm
By the way, the article mentions ONLY Naltrexone - and NEVER once LDN and refers to Naltrexone in the concept of a possible treatment of autism (this is ALL older information and as I recall, the study was NOT too successful). It does NOT mention LDN at all... anywhere!And it (the original source web page)says:
QUOTE:
An Excess of Endorphins:"But OPPOSING evidence CONTRADICTS this hypothesis stating that perhaps it is not a lack of endorphins, but rather an excess of endorphins, OR even that endorphins ARE NOT A FACTOR in the depression question at all."
The History and Future of Endorphins in Depression
"Endorphin- and serotonine-metabolism are closely related, and opioid peptides can directly inhibit serotonine release. (23) Therefore, besides sleeplessness, opioid peptides can also cause depressions. In chronically depressed people, free endorphin level is 3 fold higher (24) (because part of endorphin receptors have been destroyed)"
END QUOTE:Interpretation: Their studies repeatedly showed varied results, that excess endorphins MAY or MAY NOT have a causation with Depression.. but then if you read further, it is clear that it is the Depression causing the excess Endorphins - if that connection IS true as, I quote: "In chronically depressed people, free endorphin level is 3 fold higher (24) (because part of endorphin receptors have been destroyed)" So chronic depression causes (possibly) up to a three fold EXCESS of Endorphins --- BECAUSE THE CHRONIC DEPRESSION DESTROYED THE ENDORPHIN RECEPTORS!!!! How did you possibly get an LDN connection out of that??? More on EXCESS Endorphins later...
Some OTHER causes of release of Endorphins:
QUOTE:
Pain: The release of endorphins is caused by all pain, including eating spicy foods;
Overexposure to Light: Endorphins are released by overexposure to light.
Other Causes: Endorphins are released by both laughter and stress; sexual activity; exercise; endorphins cause euphoria
END QUOTE:Now this is talking about when Endorphins are released into the body in normal range amounts, OPTIMAL Range amounts (what LDN does)and even highly elevated amounts - as when you orgasm (And I don't EVER recall being depressed or getting a headache or anything bu the greatest feeling in the world during and for several minutes following orgasm... because you just got a very high blast of Endorphins - but note that it didn't last for hours and hours and hours - Endorphins have a half-life and spurts of high levels of Endorphins (as with orgasm - no pun intended) fairly quickly resolve themselves... unless you are a heroin, opium, morphine, or other opiate user in which case the DRUG is causing an excess of Endorphins to continually flood the system...
And THAT is what full-strength Naltrexone does, what it does is to completely - or almost completely - shut down that Endorphin release to rid the body of that excess of secretion of opiate drug induced Endorphins... it is the opiate drug causing that excess and NOT the Naltrexone, - in fact it is the Naltrexone that is fixing the problem so that - eventually - the serotonin levels will gradually return to normalized levels (in other words your interpretation is completely opposite... PLUS this involves the workings of Naltrexone and NOT the LDN therapy doses which work on a completely different principle that what is outlined anywhere on this web page)!
They then get off track and start talking about everything from general "New Age" therapies that have NOTHING to do with Endorphins or Naltrexone, etc. for some time, before EITHER Endorphins or Naltrexone (full strength) are mentioned again.
BTW.... another interesting quote:
QUOTE:
Opioid Antagonists...What are Opioid Antagonists?
"The exact action of opioid antagonists is not fully understood, but they probably block the release of certain brain chemicals (neurotransmitters), especially dopamine."
END QUOTE:QUOTE
Naltrexone and Autism."Naltrexone blocks the action of endogenous opioids at opiate receptors; endorphins are opiate-like substances in the brain and are associated with pleasure (e.g., runners' 'high,' sexual activity) and/or an anesthetic-like feeling. One theory states that autistic individuals have too much beta-endorphins in their central nervous system. This theory goes on to posit that naltrexone blocks the action of opiate receptors, and thus, reduces the level of endorphins."
END QUOTEI repeat.... THIS THEORY GOES ON TO POSIT THAT (FULL STRENGTH) NALTREXONE BLOCKS - REPEAT "BLOCKS" - THE ACTION OF THE OPIATE RECEPTORS AND THUS, REDUCES - REPEAT "REDUCES - THE LEVEL OF ENDORPHINS!!!!!
And - once again - you are quoting the mechanisms and effects of Naltrexone and not understanding that that is NOT how LDN works!!! LDN simply stops the secretion of Endorphins for 2 -3 hours which causes the resumption of Endorphin production (when the LDN wears off) to increase to where Endorphins are increased into the Optimum level range. LDN is incapable of - like an orgasm - secreting Endorphins into the excessive levels range. Only into the high normal or "OPTIMAL Ranges"....
Naltrexone is an FULL TIME opioid receptor antagonist used primarily in the management of opioid dependence and, to a much lesser degree alcohol dependence. It is marketed in generic form as its hydrochloride salt, naltrexone hydrochloride and is approved by the FDA for such purposes in its full-stength dosage of specifically 50 mg.
Low Dose Naltrexone is NOT a full-time opioid receptor antagonist and is used primarily to (A) bring AEndorphin levels - especially when reduced - to an OPTIMAL range, (B) repair disease caused neurological (nerve) damage, and (C) rebuild or modulate the Immune System.
Again.... Please post links showing "many side effects" of LDN (specifically LDN and NOT full strength Naltrexone). I would greatly enjoy reading them.
Also, read and try to full grasp the actions and processes of LDN as differentiates between LDDN and Naltrexone...
See:
http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/
http://www.ldnresearchtrustfiles.co.uk/docs/2009.pdf
http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/others.htm
And - again - understand that LDN is NOT a treatment for Depression or Anxiety that are psychologically based or based on neurotransmitter deficiencies or imbalances.
LDN has been shown to work significantly to very strongly on the following diseases (most of which involve Immune System Disorders, Autoimmune System Disorders - LDN is an Immune System "Modulator" - it corrects too inadequate of an Immune System yet will reduce an overactive, over-aggressive Immune System, and heals - to a significant extent - neurological damage - as with MS patients, neurological damage caused by hypercortisol, etc., etc.).
Cancers:
* Bladder Cancer
* Breast Cancer
* Carcinoid
* Colon & Rectal Cancer
* Glioblastoma
* Liver Cancer
* Lung Cancer (Non-Small Cell)
* Lymphocytic Leukemia (chronic)
* Lymphoma (Hodgkin's and Non-Hodgkin's)
* Malignant Melanoma
* Multiple Myeloma
* Neuroblastoma
* Ovarian Cancer
* Pancreatic Cancer
* Prostate Cancer (untreated)
* Renal Cell Carcinoma
* Throat Cancer
* Uterine CancerOther Diseases:
* ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease)
* Alzheimer's Disease
* Ankylosing Spondylitis
* Autism Spectrum Disorders
* Behcet's Disease
* Celiac Disease
* Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
* CREST syndrome
* Crohn's Disease
* Emphysema (COPD)
* Endometriosis
* Fibromyalgia
* HIV/AIDS
* Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS)
* Multiple Sclerosis (MS)
* Parkinson's Disease
* Pemphigoid
* Primary Lateral Sclerosis (PLS)
* Psoriasis
* Rheumatoid Arthritis
* Sarcoidosis
* Scleroderma
* Stiff Person Syndrome (SPS)
* Systemic Lupus (SLE)
* Transverse Myelitis
* Ulcerative Colitis
* Wegener's Granulomatosis
* AND... Recovering Cushing's patients through mechanism of rebuilding Immune System and repairing cortisol-induced neurological damage.Note that neither depression or anxiety is on the list...
However ...LDN actually CAN help with anxiety and / or depression in one round-about manner.
If you are depressed because you have MS and it is worsening and you go onto LDN Therapy and have a couple of very light relapses over the first years and then NO relapses after that (one lady so far has gone 12 years without an MS relapse - and has had only one in 17 years because she thought she was cured - she wasn't as her MS was too advanced when she started LDN - so she stopped it for a week after 5 years and got another relapse --- had she not done that, she would have gone SEVENTEEN YEARS without a relapse... and very well may NEVER have another relapse!) Now, I definitely believe that such Blessed Relief would rapidly clear up here depressive state!
IMO - and I am no doctor, simply a well-researched layman (who does "Internet and Open Source Records Research" part-time on the side for law firms and private investigators for "spending money" over and above my pension check... so am a court-recognized "Internet Researcher"), I would recommend that unless you have a primary condition that LDN is designed for and are not using it to try and treat primarily depression or anxiety AND unless you are willing to give it AT LEAST a 3.0 mg LDN dose for a 90-day time period, that YOU most definitely SHOULD not waste your time or money... nor post its "ill effects" when you are clearly having trouble differentiating between LDN and regular Naltrexone!!!
(*) RE:"But what you posted was simply to a web page of a Forum where people state their opinions... "
It is EXTREMELY obvious that even the individuals posting here are relatively clueless about the major differences between Naltrexone (which they repeatedly cite and state) versus LDN... (individuals who are NOT doctors, not scientists, not researchers, just individual layman looking for a longevity boost - in fact this site promotes chemical ways to eventually produce Human Immortality --- so I tend to give this site quite a bit of a "Quack-Quack" rating)
Posted by casse on January 12, 2010, at 21:14:41
In reply to LDN and depression » casse, posted by tea on January 12, 2010, at 2:54:50
Oh yes! Itchy skin for me on LDN too. Hydrocodone has the same effect on me. So exogenous or endogenous, endorphins cause itching is my conclusion.
As for the sleep disturbances many of us experience on LDN, the disruption of the channels which produce serotonin and melatonin is likely responsible for that as well as for the dysphoria and anxiety some complain of. As you probably know, serotonin production shuts off and switches to melatonin at night to promote sleep.
I wish I could remember where I read about this, but certain neurotransmitters compete for channels. So an excess of one inhibits another. It all make sense.As for the claim that endorphins are 3 fold higher in the depressed, that is what the article in Anxiety Insights seems to indicate.
http://www.anxietyinsights.info/overactive_brain_endorphin_system_linked_to_depression.htm
And as you suggest, the problem seems to be an inability to bind at receptors rather than an endorphin deficiency, as some claim. This could be due to down-regulation at receptors, competition with other neurotransmitters or decreased quantity of receptors. I haven't been able to find anything to suggest one hypothesis over another.
That said, I think that the question of supplementation in diet is an important one. We are a product of our environment whether we are aware of it or not. All of our food supplies are contaminated or compromised in some way. Even organic foods are subject to the contaminated environment. The challenge of meeting basic nutritional needs is a daunting one. In the years prior to having become aware of our nutritional needs, our resources had already been severely compromised. Even if we knew for a certainty exactly what is lacking, providing quality supplementation is still going to be a challenge since everything we have to work with is a product of a polluted environment. And basic nutrition is so vital to chemical exchange in the body.
My conclusion is as much instinctive wisdom as it is knowledge. I wish I knew the answers...I'd probably be nominated for a Nobel prize for easing so much of the worlds suffering.
Posted by Phillipa on January 12, 2010, at 22:17:13
In reply to Re: LDN and depression » tea, posted by casse on January 12, 2010, at 21:14:41
Casse so if anxiety are you depressed? Why do docs say you are? Love Phillipa
Posted by casse on January 13, 2010, at 20:58:59
In reply to Re: LDN and depression » casse, posted by Phillipa on January 12, 2010, at 22:17:13
I am diagnosed with Major Depressive Disorder and Generalized Anxiety Disorder. Anxiety exacerbates the depression.
Posted by Phillipa on January 13, 2010, at 21:35:00
In reply to Re: LDN and depression » Phillipa, posted by casse on January 13, 2010, at 20:58:59
I'm the exact reverse. Phillipa
Posted by casse on January 14, 2010, at 21:09:00
In reply to Re: sneezing, cough, posted by tea on January 12, 2010, at 3:21:42
I am happy to find people who are willing to openly discuss what appear to be side effects of LDN here as well. I have been banned from one LDN forum because I raised questions about the efficacy of LDN for depression and anxiety. At the time of my posting on that particular forum, almost everyone who posted was raving about how they felt relief of depression symptoms on LDN. I don't doubt those people, or their perception of how LDn made them feel, but I questioned whether LDn would effect everyone in such a positive way. My contributions were met with hostility. As if I were a threat. It was almost like a religious fanaticism. Either I was 100% for or 100% against.
And the sad thing is that nobody could offer any intelligent response. First my postings were banned. Then, when other members who had privately contacted me with similar experiences tried to post questions I raised privately, I was even prevented from reading posts. Effectively banned. And it's not as though I was doubting the value of LDN. I still believe it is a very valuable treatment option, and I still use it. I just hoped someone would know more than I did and offer an intelligent and thoughtful response to my questions. Don't let the pseudo intellectual responses of some deter you from trying this therapy. I believe thousands have experienced relief in using it. Just be open minded and willing to experiment with dosage.
Posted by Green Willow on January 14, 2010, at 21:53:07
In reply to Re: sneezing, cough » tea, posted by casse on January 14, 2010, at 21:09:00
http://ldn.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=forum&action=display&thread=96
It's been reported that amino acids can speed healing, I don't know if they mean multiple amino acids or singly.
What DLPA does....
DL-phenylalanine (DLPA), not to be confused with plain phenylalanine, is a mixture of equal parts of the "D-" (synthetic) and "L-" (natural) phenylalanine. DL-phenylalanine inhibits the enzymes systems which destroy endorphins, and the resulting increased level of endorphins accounts for the effects of DLPA: pain relief and strong antidepressant action. DLPA is very useful in conditions of chronic pain such as arthritis, low back pain, neuralgia, etc. Some people, who do not respond to ordinary pain relievers, such as Empirin, do respond to DLPA. The analgesic effect of DLPA may require from four days to two weeks to manifest but once it does appear it is long lasting.
At Dr. Bihari's recommendation, if you do NOT have high blood pressure or other conditions in the cautionary warning to take DL-Phenylalanine 500mg twice per day. Dr. Bihari says this will keep your endorphins up throughout the day and help with depression.
Posted by tea on January 15, 2010, at 0:05:06
In reply to Re: sneezing, cough » tea, posted by casse on January 14, 2010, at 21:09:00
Casse,
I so agree with you, and also with what you perceived you experienced:) I thought there may be "thinking" people on here who had tried it.
I did try posting on a few LDN forums first, but either they didnt get thru(did after a year) or you get 'stomped on".No replies on the actual topic of ldn medication and effects seem to get thru,. or everyone has given up. I do see their agenda of "promoting ldn" as they have achieved so much with it...but it shouldnt prevent open discussion. That and one forum is "vitD is the answer", another is "candida". Some are the doc says..therefore it must be so, even though I doubt those docs understand much of what they are saying. Docs here dont cover biochemistry subjects unless they study themselves as extras, or in postgrad, say in endocrinology, and that is where you learn about receptors and binding etc. Docs can really on report on how their patients are doing, like a stat report or an indivual anecdotal report..and that is IF their reEport is not biased(many are, I'd hate to say the majority- but ALL the docs so far I have been to whi have written books or done research on the subject I consult them about seem to have their own agenda unfortunately.Studies, yes I could go on about their bias as well, but their fault often lies in their design. Even if perfect they are only averages for the selected sample population..and this sample is often not the best one to show anything, just easier to collect in a given timeframe and budget. If a drug is not effective in a study, it doesn't mean this drug may not be extremely effective for a small subset of these people or even a different subset altogether!
The most benefit from studies so far is the safety aspect, but then again many side effects are not considered in their list.. what is the word only the primary "goal"?..sorry memory lapse here.
Like it lowers cholesterol, but increases or doesn't decrease death form overall causes, but the primary goal was it lowers cholesterol so its passes its criteria..provided large nos do not die during the study lifetime.The word of any astute intellient person is worth more to me, and if we can share with many and all can have their say then a forum may really help. It helps if people also tell you some of their history or you get to know the people and how they "go" their various drugs etc over time, and you can select those with a similar "makeup" to oneself and listen to them ..sometimes your reactions are similar. If they have found a solution that sometimes saves so much. I know its why people who have found solutions for themselves think it is everyones solution to everything, so we have to be careful in just chiming in as an "expert", as different groups of poeple are different,sigh.
It has happened on all forums in the past few years, that this is the pushed solution ..unfortunately. It was Armour on the hypothyroid forum, then VitD, fish oil, lyme, candida...and similar on other forums on and off. Gee I even spoke against VitD on this forum in its "day", mainly as I knew someone who committed suicide after going on large doses of it(and how do you think I feel as I suggested it and they tried it?). OK I hadn't heard from them for a few months at the time, but last thing I heard was they were feeling improvement on VitD I have NO idea what really caused it, but others have told me they have gone "manic" on it(or large doses of sunlight like in the Arabian peninsula), but I do realise it is critically short in many..just its NOT for everyone, especially in large doses, so at the time of its promotion I couldnt help trying to add a caution.I think people should really only report on how they went on something and if anything solved or helped that problem.
being able to ask about and discuss everyything openly and without bias does help a lot.
Posted by Elroy on January 15, 2010, at 14:47:34
In reply to Re: sneezing, cough » tea, posted by casse on January 14, 2010, at 21:09:00
> I am happy to find people who are willing to openly discuss what appear to be side effects of LDN here as well. I have been banned from one LDN forum because I raised questions about the efficacy of LDN for depression and anxiety. At the time of my posting on that particular forum, almost everyone who posted was raving about how they felt relief of depression symptoms on LDN. I don't doubt those people, or their perception of how LDn made them feel, but I questioned whether LDn would effect everyone in such a positive way. My contributions were met with hostility. As if I were a threat. It was almost like a religious fanaticism. Either I was 100% for or 100% against.
>
> And the sad thing is that nobody could offer any intelligent response. First my postings were banned. Then, when other members who had privately contacted me with similar experiences tried to post questions I raised privately, I was even prevented from reading posts. Effectively banned. And it's not as though I was doubting the value of LDN. I still believe it is a very valuable treatment option, and I still use it. I just hoped someone would know more than I did and offer an intelligent and thoughtful response to my questions. Don't let the pseudo intellectual responses of some deter you from trying this therapy. I believe thousands have experienced relief in using it. Just be open minded and willing to experiment with dosage.
I think you have it backwards.You have NEVER posted any links that show any evidentiary proof to your claims (only your own personal anecdotal comments).
Numerous links HAVE been posted by LDN advocates (who - like myself - admit that LND is NOT the "God-Sent Miracle" that cures all)...
Specifically, I have never read anywhere that LDN is a effective remedy for any type of anxiety or depression disorde of a psychological natgure (obviously if you are depressed because your MS is worsening and LDN stops the progression and then overe a period of a few weeks puts you into long term remission and starts revesing the MS, well, I just bet that would work wonders on your Depression! But... NOT for Depression or Anxiety or PTSD, etc., etc that is of a psychological disorder! And that has repeatedly been repeated!!! If that is what you are taking it for, take it in doses of 0.025 mg... or doses of 5.0 mg... in either case, it isn't going to aid your psychological problem... And (not at the lower doses, those below 1.5 mg) at the doses above 1.5 mg, it might very well cause some degree of depression simply because you have NORMAL levels of Endorphins already and you are shutting them down for several hours... and then when the mechanism kicks back in, it is simply taking your Endorphin levels back to normal, maybe even high normal, but the Endorphin issue was never YOUR problem to start with... It is like taking aspirin for your depression or anxiety. Aspirin's operating process is NOT designed for that purpose and clearly LDN is not designed for your disorder (and any temporary minor "relief" that you may have felt at one time or the other on sub-par dosage levels can only be explained away by the Placebo Effect).
In fact, I have indicated numerous times that for MOST disorders and diseases that exist that LDN will have NO effect on those thousands of other disorders and diseases.
You say: "I have been banned from one LDN forum because I raised questions about the efficacy of LDN for depression and anxiety... "
That is very interesting as I have never seen on ANY main LDN organization site, LDN research paper or LDN clinical study where ANY claim was made that LDN had ANY "efficacy" (i.e., effective mechanism) for Depression or Anxiety! Where did you read that it did? Or did you just hope that since it DOES have a long list of disorders (disorders mainly related to Immune System problems and Neurological nerve damage related problems, that surely it MUST also be good for Depression and / or Anxiety).
I also have stated specifically that - other than as a secondary, indirect effect on a situation depression or anxiety, that I have never read anywhere of LDN having any positive effect (efficacy) on psychological Depression and/or Anxiety.
And - though I belong to NO forums of an LDN nature, I have spent countless hours doing not only research on clinical studies and scientific research on LDN and read papers and articles by the TOP experts of LDN Therapy... but also countless hours reading postings on LDN forums.
The very positive postings on those forums ARE from people who LDN has worked miracles for... and why would there be a scad of negativfe postings??? Postings by people who had no luck with LDN working on a disorder that it has no mechanism to effect???
WHY would a doctor prescribe LDN Therapy medication to someone who the doctor knows has a disorder that LDN would NOT be even slightly effective on? That would be as bad as mainstream doctors prescribing an antibiotic for a viral or fungal infection. It would do no good at all.
So, posters on LDN Forums WOULD tend to have very positive posting because if you are prescribed it for a disorder that it is known to have an effective response to, in the vast majority of cases the LDN is effective and the postings are going to be extremely positive.
My son and I are both on LDN - and in the therapeutical ranges of 1.5mg to 3.0 mg for now (he is about 3 weeks ahead of me)... He moved up from 1.5 mg to 3.0 mgs about two weeks ago, and I having just started LDN at all in late December, just moved up to 3.0 mgs like 3 days ago.
In both our cases we felt minimal improvement at the 1.5 mg dosage... but almost overnight much more significant improvements now at the 3.0 mg.
Specifically, within just a day or two we both noted the "elevated mood" feeling that we were NOT experiencing at the 1.5 mg level (Why? Because we were NOT getting total Endorphin secretion shutdown at 1.5mg, but we are both experiencing now at the 3.0 mg level - and I believe will experience more fully when we respectively make the dosage change to 4.5 mg level (I personally feel that I am getting somewhere around a 50 - 70% shutdown effect at this 3.0 mg level).
So, once again I challenge... where are your links, our research?
Here's just a handful of mine:
http://www.fiikus.net/?ldnrefs
(How many - if any - of these studies and research papers and articles have you read? Any? I have read every one that I could track down - which was at least 90% of them).Let's just start with there. You go through the clinical research data, studies,and articles of these "quasi-quacks" who have no clue what they are talking about (compared to what you :just believe")... and then put up some links supporting your viewpoint.
BTW... who high-jacked this thread off the LDN Topic anyway?
How about some forum courtesy and moving those questions and chatting to another thread???
Posted by Phillipa on January 15, 2010, at 19:05:31
In reply to Re: sneezing, cough, posted by Elroy on January 15, 2010, at 14:47:34
So in all sincerity I'm confused that link lists cancers and autoimmune diseases but isn't chronic fatigue a result of depression anxiety? Burned out adrenals? Phillipa
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