![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 67. Go back in thread:
Posted by MAxime on October 20, 2009, at 11:47:12
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 20, 2009, at 11:04:14
I don't think you need to go into a rehab program. I think if you do the withdrawal very slowly that you will be okay. Don't try to come off everything at once. And the librium should be the last thing that you come off.
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 20, 2009, at 12:57:50
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? » Buckeye Fan, posted by MAxime on October 20, 2009, at 11:47:12
Yes...a slow taper would be the right way, you are are right.
It sure is difficult ( so far impossible for me)
to get through the withdrawl.I have tried several times...and each attempt sent me spiraling into a deep, anxious depression.
It feels like a trap sometimes.... I KNOW the withdrawl is from depriving my nervous system of the artificial stimulation that the Anti Depressants provide...but such knowledge does little good when you begin to hover near the edge of sanity ( or so it seems)
I think the saying is ...."Fear doth make cowards of us all......" I would add to that panic, depression and inability to relax or sleep !
BF
Posted by bulldog2 on October 20, 2009, at 13:13:43
In reply to Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 20, 2009, at 10:18:11
> Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
>
> Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?
>
> BFThere are so many different scenarios that the question is impossible to give a blanket answer.
If the mental state or states is genetic (often is) than I would think the answer is no and you would likely return to a pre med state. Think of a diebetic stoppping insulin.
Also if you grew up in an environment that assaulted your brain with constant stress than there's a chance your brain was permanently damaged and you will probably return to a pre-med state when discontinuing meds.
I think those who had normal periods and developed a mental problem later in life (situatonal) have the best chance of being able to discontinue meds.
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 20, 2009, at 13:32:37
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bulldog2 on October 20, 2009, at 13:13:43
> > >
> There are so many different scenarios that the question is impossible to give a blanket answer.
> If the mental state or states is genetic (often is) than I would think the answer is no and you would likely return to a pre med state. Think of a diebetic stoppping insulin.
> Also if you grew up in an environment that assaulted your brain with constant stress than there's a chance your brain was permanently damaged and you will probably return to a pre-med state when discontinuing meds.
> I think those who had normal periods and developed a mental problem later in life (situatonal) have the best chance of being able to discontinue meds.Some good points Bulldog2 !
It makes sense that if while going through the developmental stage of early life ( birth, through adolescence) ...one was faced with extreme stressful situations on a daily basis...
perhaps the brain and/or nervous system suffers irreparable damage, and thus tries to compensate with certain mechanisms to survive.
Does this make sense ?
Add to that the introduction of Medications into the system designed to control the symptoms ( such meds often having their own side-effects slightly differing depending on the individual) and I can see a real reason for the struggle to argue for or against being "Med-Free"...Thanks BD...you have given me much to think about~
BF
Posted by yxibow on October 20, 2009, at 15:10:35
In reply to Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 20, 2009, at 10:18:11
> Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
>
> Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?
>
> BFIf you want the short answer -- it always was and always will be.
The choice to treat yourself with medication, or alternative (more so in the US), or none, is yours and yours alone.
Some people find the palliative.................
(remember, there really aren't any definitive cures at least in my opinion... maybe stem cell research will get something... you take medication when biochemicals change and shift in your head and you need them)..............
worse than the disorder.
That doesn't mean a lifetime of one or another or any medication. You could go into a residual / remission stage of biochemicals / transmitters and not need medications.But don't think of them as a crutch.
They are there to help you (hopefully), and some people just go off their medications when they feel great, and discover that "feeling great" meant that the medications were at their peak and their functionality was.
And then things break loose on a decision to drop the medications.
I think some day that becoming medication reduced will be a reality, and that fewer side effects will be a reality.
Whether there is a "cure" or being medication free for life for a particular biochemical disorder (which most of us are born with or have a tendency towards), I can't say... only research and time will tell.
--- tidings
Posted by bleauberry on October 20, 2009, at 17:18:03
In reply to Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 20, 2009, at 10:18:11
> Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
AFter 15 years of most of the psych drugs, the longest stretches being one year on Paxil and then 8 years on Prozac+Zyprexa+Modafinil, I have been med free for 3 years.
>
> Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?
>
> BFNo. That will never happen. In 15 years, with or without meds, a things have changed. The body is always aging, changing, adapting, and so on. Things never stand still. You would land in some new place unlike the old you and unlike the drugged you.
People who do the best med-free after long psychiatric med histories usually have a few things in common...
1. They change their food choices and activity choice. For example, some feel better on something similar to the Atkins diet...basically heavy on proteins and plants, very light on anything else. Some people like me do best on an anti-inflammatory diet, which is heavy on plants and fats but light on proteins. It is a healthy change to take on a new hobby or activity, sort of like a new chapter in the book. It symbolically draws a purposeful line in the sand that says the old is done, bring on the new.
2. Experimentation and usage of natural reinforcement. That could be anything...SAMe, SJW, Rhodiola, 5hpt, tyrosine, dlpa, GABA, glycine, ginkgo, one of the three ginsengs, feverfew, lemon balm, passionflower, albizzia, adrenal cortex extract, licorice, and others. These things are highly under-rated in terms of power and potential, usually because the user is not well informed on how to choose them, dose them, or combine them.
3. Detective work to hunt down the real cause of the psychiatric symptoms that was ignored and covered up all those years on meds. It can turn out to be something like thyroid, adrenal fatigue, amalgam fillings, candida, one of a number of ruthless pathogens with Borellia (Lyme) being just one of them, or a combination of several things likely. Many times we may never know what the real problem is, but there are still vast treasures of plants on the earth to treat any condition or symptom. All of these things are actually fairly easy and cheap to test and explore.
Worst case scenario...you may need a med or two for longterm or forever...but you can likely do 1/4 or 1/2 of customary doses with the aid of other supplements that strengthen your body and mind and address the symptoms.
My own opinion is that anyone contemplating getting off longterm meds should do the following:
1. Go at a very slow pace...tiny steps down in dosage spread out over months.
2. Begin those new food choices and activities.
3. Recruit an Integrative MD on your team, as he/she will have good ideas to help supplement your weaning process, guidance on supplements during and after weaning, and a general view of the mind being an extension of the whole body, not just a separate entity. What happens in the body directly affects the mind. Integrative MDs prefer to use natural supplements to allow the body to do its own good work and healing, but can also prescribe appropriate meds when needed.
Posted by Phillipa on October 20, 2009, at 20:16:58
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 20, 2009, at 13:32:37
Well as Bulldog knows I relate to that. But I did go on benzos in the 70's and during nursing school, Aerobic Dance, Divorces raising three kids was med free when happy. And happy for many years. Then the medical stuff happened thyroid got me. The lymes didn't neurologically affect me. I think depends on physical health too. Ive used this example before my next door neighbor spent years on lexapro and very high benzos doses. Lexapro pooped and doc gave her effexor she hated it and spent around two weeks detoxing off it. But now is taking xanax only and less than when on the ad's. I feel for example my current osteoporosis scare not resolved yet threw me for a loop and I sure haven't gotten back to base line on low dose of luvox and low benzos dose. Did something really stupid today. I won't got into it involves another type of doc for surgery. Look young be young. I think you'll get the pic. Love Phillipa
Posted by MAxime on October 20, 2009, at 22:01:05
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? » Buckeye Fan, posted by Phillipa on October 20, 2009, at 20:16:58
> I won't got into it involves another type of doc for surgery. Look young be young. I think you'll get the pic. Love Phillipa
Tell me. How does someone on Medicare disability afford plastic surgeries? I don't get it. Isn't that illegal or something? How can you be on disability and afford plastic surgery?
Posted by Phillipa on October 20, 2009, at 22:09:56
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? » Phillipa, posted by MAxime on October 20, 2009, at 22:01:05
Not getting it my personal savings from first marriage many years ago. Medicaire diability doesn't care how many houses you own only that you can't work. It's medicaid or welfare that's a different story. I need to hang on to my savings for my health issues. My decision. Love Phillipa ps used to have quarter of a million long gone on real estate losses. Oh well. Not much left maybe enough to bury me and provide Vet care for the pups.
Posted by MAxime on October 20, 2009, at 22:22:31
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? » MAxime, posted by Phillipa on October 20, 2009, at 22:09:56
Oh, ok. I always wondered what the difference was between medicade and medicare. I'm glad you aren't getting it done. :-)
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 21, 2009, at 5:21:17
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? » Buckeye Fan, posted by yxibow on October 20, 2009, at 15:10:35
Thanks Yxibow...
As I think back....I can remember clearly feeling similiar anxiety,social awkwardness,desire to isolate and inferiority as a child.The same issuses that led me to begin taking Med's later in life.
I guess when I was younger, I was better able to handle these feelings as..like all of us at that age...I was developing, learning about life, and unaware that feeling "different" was not normal.
I remember my first Panic Attack was at age 18 in College. It passed...and I didnt have another until in my 30's.
My point is that as life has progressed....it becomes more difficult to handle "life"..with all the pressures of full-blown adulthood...while at the same time feeling anxiety, depression, etc...
The other difference in adulthood, is that we can not afford the Luxury of taking time out to get "better". We need patched-up to stay in the Game because our responsibilities are greater and more pressing ( Mortgage, Spouse, Kids,etc...)
More food for thought...thanks again
BF
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 21, 2009, at 5:36:18
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bleauberry on October 20, 2009, at 17:18:03
Another excellent post with a ton of great ideas~
I saved it in My Favorites on my PC to refer back to Bleauberry. As a former practitioner of Old School Chinese Martial Arts ( including teachings of the healing properties in many plants) I do know I felt the best physically and mentally when I was practicing everyday.
Again....I got caught up in "LIFE" and that has left very little time for healthy Self-Care.
As a matter of fact...even the term Self-care, makes me uncomfortable. It immediately brings to my mind thoughts like selfishness and narcissism.
However...If I was advising someone else, instead of self-evaluation...I would not look at it the same way...
Interesting..................I never realized what conflicted feelings and beliefs I have been carrying around for decades.
NO WONDER I AM ON THESE MEDS!!!!!!!!!!
BF
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 21, 2009, at 5:56:07
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bleauberry on October 20, 2009, at 17:18:03
> > Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
>
> AFter 15 years of most of the psych drugs, the longest stretches being one year on Paxil and then 8 years on Prozac+Zyprexa+Modafinil, I have been med free for 3 years.
>
> >
> > Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?
> >
> > BF
>
> No. That will never happen. In 15 years, with or without meds, a things have changed. The body is always aging, changing, adapting, and so on. Things never stand still. You would land in some new place unlike the old you and unlike the drugged you.
>
> People who do the best med-free after long psychiatric med histories usually have a few things in common...
>
> 1. They change their food choices and activity choice. For example, some feel better on something similar to the Atkins diet...basically heavy on proteins and plants, very light on anything else. Some people like me do best on an anti-inflammatory diet, which is heavy on plants and fats but light on proteins. It is a healthy change to take on a new hobby or activity, sort of like a new chapter in the book. It symbolically draws a purposeful line in the sand that says the old is done, bring on the new.
>
> 2. Experimentation and usage of natural reinforcement. That could be anything...SAMe, SJW, Rhodiola, 5hpt, tyrosine, dlpa, GABA, glycine, ginkgo, one of the three ginsengs, feverfew, lemon balm, passionflower, albizzia, adrenal cortex extract, licorice, and others. These things are highly under-rated in terms of power and potential, usually because the user is not well informed on how to choose them, dose them, or combine them.
>
> 3. Detective work to hunt down the real cause of the psychiatric symptoms that was ignored and covered up all those years on meds. It can turn out to be something like thyroid, adrenal fatigue, amalgam fillings, candida, one of a number of ruthless pathogens with Borellia (Lyme) being just one of them, or a combination of several things likely. Many times we may never know what the real problem is, but there are still vast treasures of plants on the earth to treat any condition or symptom. All of these things are actually fairly easy and cheap to test and explore.
>
> Worst case scenario...you may need a med or two for longterm or forever...but you can likely do 1/4 or 1/2 of customary doses with the aid of other supplements that strengthen your body and mind and address the symptoms.
>
> My own opinion is that anyone contemplating getting off longterm meds should do the following:
>
> 1. Go at a very slow pace...tiny steps down in dosage spread out over months.
> 2. Begin those new food choices and activities.
> 3. Recruit an Integrative MD on your team, as he/she will have good ideas to help supplement your weaning process, guidance on supplements during and after weaning, and a general view of the mind being an extension of the whole body, not just a separate entity. What happens in the body directly affects the mind. Integrative MDs prefer to use natural supplements to allow the body to do its own good work and healing, but can also prescribe appropriate meds when needed.
>
>I remember a couple of years ago....two isolated events that have a common thread, that might be worth mentioning here.... The first:
I went on vacation with the family down to the Beach...I decided to stop taking my Anti-Depressant so that I could "experience the feelings of vacation without the emotional blunting of the Medication"
To compensate...I doubled, even tripled my dose of Xanax for that week.
And it WORKED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had a great vacation....and felt no panic, no agoraphobia and no trouble sleeping.
I decided to continue just taking the Benzo when I got home..at a reduced dosage. I figured since I went 8 days without my AD....I might as well stay off of it.
About 2 days back into normal life.....*BAM!*
I went into a deep depression.
Back on the AD I went...and in about a week, life was tolerable again.Another time I decided to stop taking my AD...I was suffering through for about a month or two...while taking ST John's Wart instead of 100mgs of Zoloft I was previously taking. It didnt seem to be working, and in fact I was growing more depressed.
One of my best friends, who is familiar with Depression and anxiety made this statement as we were in the local Pharmacy picking up another bottle of St John's Wart........"BF....you have been taking that for 2 months and its not working
YOU ARE TRYING TO FIGHT A WAR WITH A Fly Swatter, WHAT YOU NEED IS A NUCLEAR BOMB"...we both laughed at his statement...but it "clicked" in my head.
I renewed my script for Zoloft and within a week I was back to being able to function.BF
Posted by Meltingpot on October 21, 2009, at 7:12:02
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bleauberry on October 20, 2009, at 17:18:03
Bleuberry,
I know we are not supposed to say anything derogatory about another persons opinions and I know you are a very intelligent person and I know that I am going to get barred for saying this sometimes I think you talk utter crap.
The only thing I agree with you on is in relation to thyroid problems and Adrenal problems.
Since when has anybody gone from feeling suicidally depressed and anxious and then had their fillings removed and suddenly felt right again?!!! Since when has anybody gone from feeling suicidally depressed and anxiety and then switched to the Atkins diet and felt ok again?.
It's great that you have been off medication for three years but I think that the fact that you are off them and are not looking for the nearest exit route suggests that you are not that bad.
Maybe you would say that you are able to manage without medication because you have changed your diet, removed your amalgram fillings and copper pipes from your house and have taken one of the herbs that you have listed but all I can say then is a) that your diet must have been absolutely awful before and b) you are getting some kind of placebo affect from the alternative meds (they do jack sh*t for me) or maybe I'm just jealous.
But I had to respond because I often get angry when I read your posts and I always have to bite my tongue (in this case fingers).
Denise
Posted by bulldog2 on October 21, 2009, at 9:27:55
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Meltingpot on October 21, 2009, at 7:12:02
> Bleuberry,
>
> I know we are not supposed to say anything derogatory about another persons opinions and I know you are a very intelligent person and I know that I am going to get barred for saying this sometimes I think you talk utter crap.
>
> The only thing I agree with you on is in relation to thyroid problems and Adrenal problems.
>
> Since when has anybody gone from feeling suicidally depressed and anxious and then had their fillings removed and suddenly felt right again?!!! Since when has anybody gone from feeling suicidally depressed and anxiety and then switched to the Atkins diet and felt ok again?.
>
> It's great that you have been off medication for three years but I think that the fact that you are off them and are not looking for the nearest exit route suggests that you are not that bad.
>
> Maybe you would say that you are able to manage without medication because you have changed your diet, removed your amalgram fillings and copper pipes from your house and have taken one of the herbs that you have listed but all I can say then is a) that your diet must have been absolutely awful before and b) you are getting some kind of placebo affect from the alternative meds (they do jack sh*t for me) or maybe I'm just jealous.
>
> But I had to respond because I often get angry when I read your posts and I always have to bite my tongue (in this case fingers).
>
>
> Denise
>
>
>
>Denise
I guess I am going to be barred along with you as I agree with you post. You had the courage to say what I wouldn't say.
By the way over the past year Bleauberry has mentioned trying different ad's and stopping them because of sides I guess. So I guess he is not in remission if he is still trying ad's.
I agree that one should eat the best diet they have time to prepare and exercise. This is only common sense.
On another note I have spent the last 40 years pursuing diet,exercise, vitamins,minerals,amino acids, and many aspects of alternative medicine. I've read books about the latest miracle cures for years. I have spent thousands of dollars on accupuncture,eastern medicine,herbs,lyme's cures etc. Frankly it has not worked. After 40 years I will no longer read any books or spend any more money pursuing the latest theory on how to cure all our health problems.
Some years ago I started going to an alternative health doctor. He told me he had once been on Nardil for depression and it had worked well. Evenetually he married and moved. About a year later I found out that he had fallen into a deep depression and killed himself. This was a shock to me.
If you have years to look and thousands to spend on alternative medicine be my guest. Maybe you'll be luckier than I was. I just don't believe in it any more. To many unsubstantiated claims and often the research is suspect. If I had to do it all over again I would stick with diet and exercise but I would not have done the rest.I just don't believe there are any miracle cures out there.
Posted by bulldog2 on October 21, 2009, at 10:01:54
In reply to Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 20, 2009, at 10:18:11
> Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
>
> Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?
>
> BFI don't think anyone wants to be on meds. I wish I didn't need high blood pressure meds but I'm glad their available to keep my bp under control.
If you want to try living without meds give it a shot. But my advice to you is get back on them asap if you find yourself spiraling back into mental illness. My friend maybe be greatful they work for you and give you a life. How many here are still looking for a combo that will take away their misery and achieve remission. Just some of my thoughts.
Posted by bleauberry on October 21, 2009, at 18:15:35
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Meltingpot on October 21, 2009, at 7:12:02
> Bleuberry,
>
> I know we are not supposed to say anything derogatory about another persons opinions and I know you are a very intelligent person and I know that I am going to get barred for saying this sometimes I think you talk utter crap....I hope you do not get barred, and I do not see that you said anything derogatory here at all.
>
> The only thing I agree with you on is in relation to thyroid problems and Adrenal problems....I'm sorry abou that. If anyone thinks that thyroid and adrenal are the only things in the body that could go awry and cause mood problems, well, they can certainly make their own choice to believe whatever they want.
>
> Since when has anybody gone from feeling suicidally depressed and anxious and then had their fillings removed and suddenly felt right again?!!! Since when has anybody gone from feeling suicidally depressed and anxiety and then switched to the Atkins diet and felt ok again?.What I find interesting is that usually a few weeks or a few months after I say something here that causes someone else, like you in this case, to blow a gasket, someone else comes along with a link of a scientific study saying the exact thing I said, and all of a sudden it is viewed as the newest greatest discovery. Garbage turns into gold, depending on who says it.
If you don't believe certains things, I can see you attacking the idea, but you don't need to attack the person. Make your case that amalgams don't cause depression, but don't shoot the person who says it does. Shoot the idea not the person. If you can.
It is human natur, I feel, to accept what we want to believe and to turn our nose up at what we don't want to...all completely based on emotion, without a credible unbiased effort at gathering some information first.
>
> It's great that you have been off medication for three years but I think that the fact that you are off them and are not looking for the nearest exit route suggests that you are not that bad.No, chronic late stage Lyme with cork-screw shaped ugly little things drilling holes in your brain and skin is no big deal. Neither are the Babesia worms wiggling around in there. It's not that bad. No big deal. Seriously though, don't try it. Stay away from ticks.
And no, seeing a line named Mercury on a graph...green at the bottom, yellow in the middle, red at the top...with your own line in the middle of the red is no big deal. That line that says lead, the one that is even higher than mercury line, no big deal. Just because those are two of the most toxic substances on the planet and they are hanging out forever in your receptors and glands doesn't mean anything in terms of mood disorders.
>
> Maybe you would say that you are able to manage without medication because you have changed your diet, removed your amalgram fillings and copper pipes from your house and have taken one of the herbs that you have listed but all I can say then is a) that your diet must have been absolutely awful before and b) you are getting some kind of placebo affect from the alternative meds (they do jack sh*t for me) or maybe I'm just jealous.Yeah my diet was aweful...donuts for breakfast, coffee all day, fast food burgers and fries and shakes for lunch, and maybe a half decent dinner because I didn't have to cook it.
I'm not getting a placebo effect from herbs because in fact the opposite happens...the mood altering herbs, just the like mood altering meds, either do not help me or make me worse. I would love to experience a placebo effect, but they have been absent. The mercury and the bugs screw everything up pretty bad.
You have nothing to be jealous of. I'm not in great shape. I am fighting to be in better shape than I am. I know what problems must be tackled head on. Psychiatric meds won't do that. I wish they would. It would be a lot easier. But as we all see ourselves, the psych world isn't any easier. The outcomes are usually not very good in the longrun.
>
> But I had to respond because I often get angry when I read your posts and I always have to bite my tongue (in this case fingers).I don't understand why? Oh well. I would think someone who is ill would want to learn all they can about healing. When someone closes the entire world out so that the only thing in their sight is a psychatric toolbox, it is to me a shame.
>
>
> Denise
>
>
>
>Did I get immemdiate depression relief from my amalgam removal? Unfortunately, no. Do other people? Amazingly, many do. Their stories can be seen in the archives of chelation, thyroid, autism, and adrenal forums. For sure, a vast majority of people do experience noticeable improvement of symptoms rather quickly when amalgams are removed, even without chelation. I wasn't one of them. But then, I didn't know at the time there was more to my story than just amalgams. The amalgams, if anything, had probably weakened me overall enough that other things could take a strong hold than they would have been able to do otherwise.
Can a specific diet really help? In almost every case, yes. There are different kinds of diets. Protein heavy diets for many. Gluten free and/or casseine (dairy) free diets. Carb/plant/fat/low-protein diets (anti-inflammatory, great for Lyme, arthritis, MS, Lupus). What is the expected journey? About 2 months of feeling worse...long story...healing stuff going on...then slow gradual recovery. Benefits are seen in 6 to 12 months. For some people, such as someone gluten sensitive but didn't know it, benefits can come very rapidly.
As far as herbs go, when mood altering herbs don't work for you, it is in my mind a pretty clear indication that something else besides the mind is at fault. In which case a liver herb, circulation herbs, antimicrobial herbs, anti-inflammatory herbs, immune regulating herbs, and adaptogen herbs would be the more likely routes to improved mood than the mood herbs.
Dr Bob's is a place to share information and support. That's what I do. There is a disclaimer that says to not believe everything you read. I say to you, do not listen to anything I have said. Go your own way. In your own time, in your own way, make your own discoveries. In the meantime, when you disagree with knowledge that you don't know anything about, don't attack the person. Attack the knowledge if it is faulty. Show how it is faulty. But please don't attack the person.
Posted by bleauberry on October 21, 2009, at 18:42:04
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality? » Meltingpot, posted by bulldog2 on October 21, 2009, at 9:27:55
> By the way over the past year Bleauberry has mentioned trying different ad's and stopping them because of sides I guess. So I guess he is not in remission if he is still trying ad's.
Did someone say I was in remission? Cool. I didn't know that. In re-reading my posts, I certainly never even came close to claiming that. Where did you get that from? Who made that up?
Trying meds? Definitely. I don't rule anything out. Nothing. It's just that every time I do try a med, it is either: 1)no better than anything else, 2)or worse.
> On another note I have spent the last 40 years pursuing diet,exercise, vitamins,minerals,amino acids, and many aspects of alternative medicine. I've read books about the latest miracle cures for years. I have spent thousands of dollars on accupuncture,eastern medicine,herbs,lyme's cures etc. Frankly it has not worked.....Valiant efforts. I applaud you for that. You are not alone. You are not the only one fighting lifelong illnesses and not getting where you want.
After 40 years I will no longer read any books or spend any more money pursuing the latest theory on how to cure all our health problems.
...I find that a shame. The next book might have been the one. As for theories, I don't like them and never pursue them. There has to be at least some evidence anecdotal or scientific. I don't think anyone should ever give up learning.
>
> Some years ago I started going to an alternative health doctor. He told me he had once been on Nardil for depression and it had worked well. Evenetually he married and moved. About a year later I found out that he had fallen into a deep depression and killed himself. This was a shock to me....If cherry-picking bad outcomes to determine an overall view of something is the strategy, then count me out of that game. My favorite side of the fence is the postive side. There is enough doom and gloom already I don't want to embrace it on purpose.
>
> If you have years to look and thousands to spend on alternative medicine be my guest. Maybe you'll be luckier than I was....Add up the doctor bills, psychiatry bills, and prescription bills from the time you first sought treatment until the time you are in remission...let me know what that total sum is. Since insurance doesn't pay for alternatives, to keep it fair, make sure to include the amounts of your copay as well as what the insurance company pays for you. We want the total cost of treatment regardless of who paid, and of course, the outcome.
I just don't believe in it any more. To many unsubstantiated claims and often the research is suspect.
...Yeah, I saw that in the Paxil research. The studies that were locked away from the FDA because they failed to show any difference from placebo. Actually, most meds have those studies that were not submitted to the FDA. Research does look pretty good when you can cherry pick your best performances and hide the not-so-good ones. Of course, even the good ones leave a lot to be desired. And I recall the suicide cases in Cymbalta where the clinical trial patients did not previously have depression...it was for pain. Granted, our scientific research is probably the best, or second best, in the world. But still, I view everything with a sense of awareness before diving in.
The preferred combination for me includes these three things together: 1)science, 2)experience of the experienced, 3)what my own eyes see.
If I had to do it all over again I would stick with diet and exercise but I would not have done the rest.I just don't believe there are any miracle cures out there.
...I do not believe there are either. Whether it is something like waiting 3 months for Rhodiola to kick in for someone, or in an amalgam case 2 years of grueling chelation, or in a Lyme case 12 months of feeling like death on a wide variety of substances at a total cost of $2000 to $30,000, someone going through the agony of being brought to the edge of death on chemotherapy for weeks and months, or the person finally finding the right psych combo after 2o years, I don't see any miracle cures. I see people fighting for their lives.
The ones that eventually win are the ones that never give up, and keep trying, keep learning, and trying new things.
Posted by bulldog2 on October 21, 2009, at 19:02:04
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bleauberry on October 21, 2009, at 18:15:35
I've found that alternative medicine is like finding a needle or maybe a couple needles of truth in a haystack of claims that will not bare fruit. If one has years of time and money to find these needles of truth than go on the search for the silver bullet. For most ill people they have neither the time or money to go through the haystack of claims.
I have also found searching through this sea of claims keeps one preoccuppied with one's illness and in some ways makes the situation worse.
Western Medicine does not cure but produces meds that control symptoms that keep us alive and productive and in the case of psych meds often keep us reasonably happy. No this system is not perfect but for the sick person the system in my opinion offers a better option. The results are quicker and most of us just want relief from our pain as fast as possible.
After 40 years of reading books on every new miracle cure I give up. Good nutrition and exercise I believe in. I don't want to look at another book on Lyme's disease, mercury filling and this diet and that diet. Just give me my pill and let me feel better. Makes my life a lot simpler and gives me time to read about other things than the newest silver bullet to save mankind. Personally I believe alternative medicine is infested with quackery and a lot of people out to empty your wallets.
I think when my alternative med doctor committed suicide that was a wake up call. He adopted an eastern philosophy of medicine with herbs acupuncture and the whole deal. He once told me his best response to his depression were his years on Nardil.
Posted by bleauberry on October 21, 2009, at 19:04:21
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bulldog2 on October 21, 2009, at 10:01:54
I'm confused. Did you not just submit a post claiming years and thousands of dollars on alternative herbs? That means you must know a lot in that area, right?
Here's my confusion. There are a couple herbs that are not only healthy to consume, but also reduce blood pressure with clinical equivalence to prescription meds. Have you tried those? Which ones?
> > Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
> >
> > Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?
> >
> > BF
>
> I don't think anyone wants to be on meds. I wish I didn't need high blood pressure meds but I'm glad their available to keep my bp under control.
>
> If you want to try living without meds give it a shot. But my advice to you is get back on them asap if you find yourself spiraling back into mental illness. My friend maybe be greatful they work for you and give you a life. How many here are still looking for a combo that will take away their misery and achieve remission. Just some of my thoughts.Everyone's "correct road" is different. For every case where a psychiatric med had a favorable longterm outcome (10-30 years), there are at least as many that did so by stopping psych meds and pursuing other health concerns instead, which in turn fixed the mental problems. Some people need meds for life, even if they don't work great. Some people don't. I personally know one lady who was so psychotic and uncontrolled on meds they had given up hope for her. Today she takes a handful of supplements and is so healthy and bouncy you would never know she had ever been sick in her life. (In this case, Glycine was the magic supplement) For someone else, the miracle story was maybe Effexor. For someone else, someone right here at pbabble, any attempts to do anything different than the steady dose of Nardil results in deterioration. Otherwise, they are extremely well.
Looking ahead 15 years into the future, the one on Glycine is probably still living well, the one on Effexor had poopout years ago and now has a backpack full of med failures. The one who had amalgams removed, did chelation, and did two years of anti-Lyme treatment, still requires a small dose of an AD and a handful of supplements to stay well...a lot of organic damage had been done....bottom line, everyone's road is different.
We are each in charge of our own lives and given the responsible duty to do the best we can with it. My stance is that the psychiatrict toolbox can be stepping stone, a foundation, a cure, or a failure, but no matter what it is for any particular person, it is too narrow in scope to address the entire physiology at hand in whatever mood disorder is in concern, except in the occassional event where it is a longterm cure all by itself.
Posted by Phillipa on October 21, 2009, at 19:42:29
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bleauberry on October 21, 2009, at 19:04:21
Right now I'm miserable as trying to decide what to do about the osteoporosis. One thing I did was cancel some plastic surgery as the benefits didn't add up. Compromise instead of large forehead scar is laser treatment to sundamaged facial skin. Less much less expensive no anesthesia, no healing time for an already weak antibody body. As did have the chronic lymes, and the thyroid that does not want to stabalize, add the bioidentical hormones for the bone building at lower than prescribed for bringing me to peri menopausal where was and not a good level for a women as when all the side effects occur. Got to google testosterone as that's the bone builder. Add the calcium and D3 1500mg and 800 of D as the bio doc said. Who is a real MD who practiced ob-gyn here for over 30 years and then went a bit alternative. To me this is combining the best of both worlds. I will always need the benzos and guess the silly pathetic dose of 50mg of luvox so what? If it works that's what's important not pleasing traditional doctors. My body my treatment. I do think there is or maybe something to accupuncture as a girl last day of chemo for breast cancer no hair jogging on beach as saw the accupuncturist and wears loops in her ears. My take on this. A blending of all worlds. Love Phillipa ps until got into nursing was always nutritional involved deeply with Shaklee and believed which is also the key. Then brainwashed working in hospitals
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 22, 2009, at 6:20:18
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bulldog2 on October 21, 2009, at 10:01:54
> > Just wanting some opinions gang....after 10-15 years of using an AD and a Benzo....is there any hope I could become med free ?
> >
> > Would my system eventually return to it's pre-med state?
> >
> > BF
>
> I don't think anyone wants to be on meds. I wish I didn't need high blood pressure meds but I'm glad their available to keep my bp under control.
Hi Bulldog2, thanks for the reponse
I have heard and used the same reasoning in the past of comparing psych Meds with other Meds. Over the last couple of years after my research, I have begun to question whether or not my using that comparison is valid.
BP Medication clearly has a cause -and-effect for example, as does Aspirin,Antibiotics and of course Insulin.
Psych Meds are different.Most include the phrase- "is THOUGHT to work by inhibiting this or that"..... That phrase and the entire air of uncertianty concerning the operation of these chemicals ( Meds) on our Brain's chemicals....has caused me reason to at least question the validity of comparisons to other much more provable Medications.
Just a thought...........
> If you want to try living without meds give it a shot. But my advice to you is get back on them asap if you find yourself spiraling back into mental illness. My friend maybe be greatful they work for you and give you a life. How many here are still looking for a combo that will take away their misery and achieve remission. Just some of my thoughts.
As I stated in my beginning post....each time I have tried to wean myself off, I have not been able to deal with the side-effects of the withdrawl. You do make a good point though...and you are right, I am thankful that I have found a measure of relief of the symptoms through PMeds.
One of my fears is...will there come a day when they no longer work? Then what ? I know that the experience of many is that the AD stops working after a time...and the person is left to try and find something else that accomplishes the same relief.BF
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 22, 2009, at 6:43:48
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by bleauberry on October 21, 2009, at 19:04:21
Bleauberry, you wrote:
"Did I get immemdiate depression relief from my amalgam removal? Unfortunately, no. Do other people? Amazingly, many do. Their stories can be seen in the archives of chelation, thyroid, autism, and adrenal forums. For sure, a vast majority of people do experience noticeable improvement of symptoms rather quickly when amalgams are removed, even without chelation. I wasn't one of them. But then, I didn't know at the time there was more to my story than just amalgams. The amalgams, if anything, had probably weakened me overall enough that other things could take a strong hold than they would have been able to do otherwise.
Can a specific diet really help? In almost every case, yes. There are different kinds of diets. Protein heavy diets for many. Gluten free and/or casseine (dairy) free diets. Carb/plant/fat/low-protein diets (anti-inflammatory, great for Lyme, arthritis, MS, Lupus). What is the expected journey? About 2 months of feeling worse...long story...healing stuff going on...then slow gradual recovery. Benefits are seen in 6 to 12 months. For some people, such as someone gluten sensitive but didn't know it, benefits can come very rapidly.
As far as herbs go, when mood altering herbs don't work for you, it is in my mind a pretty clear indication that something else besides the mind is at fault. In which case a liver herb, circulation herbs, antimicrobial herbs, anti-inflammatory herbs, immune regulating herbs, and adaptogen herbs would be the more likely routes to improved mood than the mood herbs"
==================================================Thanks for all the info, and for sharing the real life results you have experienced.
The key word here is probabley - BALANCE- in my humble opinion.
As you pointed out....each one's journey is highly individualized. What works for one of us, may not work for another...and visa-versa.
Again ( not wanting to beat a dead horse) but P drugs are different than other more exacting medications.
For example, if you have 100 people with high-blood pressure...an overwhelming percentage approaching 100% WILL react to blood -pressure medication, by experiencing a DROP in their BP after starting treatment. While some of the 100 may beed a slightly different BP Med...ALL will show a measurable drop in blood pressure with the proper med, dose and time.Take the same 100 people and give them a Psych Med...and a much lower percentage will respond with such precise cause-and-effect.
So much more enters into the equation when dealing with our brain, emotions,and such a varied individual backround that we each have lived. The Blood Pressure medicine will work for most people, regardless of Culture, upbringing, enviromental issues, etc....
Not so with the Medications we take for our emotional health.
"Dr Bob's is a place to share information and support. That's what I do. There is a disclaimer that says to not believe everything you read. I say to you, do not listen to anything I have said. Go your own way. In your own time, in your own way, make your own discoveries. In the meantime, when you disagree with knowledge that you don't know anything about, don't attack the person. Attack the knowledge if it is faulty. Show how it is faulty. But please don't attack the person."
==================================================Agreed.
I am thankful for this resource and the input of the hundreds that contribute.
I would suggest that we do keep in mind that we are on this Site because we are all sick and seeking help.
It stands to reason that we are going to be emotional at times in our posts....even passionate ( ...sometimes depending on the mood we are in on any particuliar day ! lol )
Tolerance, understanding and an open mind will probabley help us ALL HELP EACH OTHER..BF
Posted by Buckeye Fan on October 22, 2009, at 6:58:23
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 22, 2009, at 6:43:48
I also have a related question to this entire Topic.
It is my understanding that many of the AD's work by inhibiting the re-uptake of certain select
chemicals produced in our Brain. I will use this example, since this is a medication I was on for many years..ZoloftDefinitions of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor on the Web:
an antidepressant drug that acts by blocking the reuptake of serotonin so that more serotonin is available to act on receptors in the brain
===========================================================My question is this.....if our brain naturally gets rid of the serotonin, and we interfere with that by causing it's uptake to be slowed...how can this be healthy ?????
Is there not a good REASON that our bodies are designed to dispel this and other mood altering chemicals? Is this not upsetting the natural balance that was intended to exist in our brains?Im sure this question has been poised before, but I have always wondered about it, so I thought I would ask.
Thanks
BF
Posted by sowhysosad on October 22, 2009, at 8:47:51
In reply to Re: Is Becoming Med Free a Reality?, posted by Buckeye Fan on October 22, 2009, at 6:43:48
> Again ( not wanting to beat a dead horse) but P drugs are different than other more exacting medications.
> For example, if you have 100 people with high-blood pressure...an overwhelming percentage approaching 100% WILL react to blood -pressure medication, by experiencing a DROP in their BP after starting treatment. While some of the 100 may beed a slightly different BP Med...ALL will show a measurable drop in blood pressure with the proper med, dose and time.
>
> Take the same 100 people and give them a Psych Med...and a much lower percentage will respond with such precise cause-and-effect.I think the the issue here that "depression", "anxiety" and "bipolar disorder" are catch-all terms for a huge spectrum of similar disorders with different genetic, biochemical and psychological causes.
It's very convenient for psychiatry and the drug industry to lump them all in together as a handful of conditions, but there are very different things happening under the skin for different people.
Perhaps that would explain why even highly effective psych meds won't work for as large a proportion of people as a blood pressure med.
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