![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 16:42:11
I'm sorry to be dramatic, but I am, as many have here as probably considered or attemped, suicide.
I will not bother you with longs details, only that I have had chronic low/moderate depression for about 10 years, I'm only 22 now. At 20 years old, depspite former trials I decided, I had to get help because I was feeling so bad. I spent 1 year on lexapro and some months on prebabalin and the results have been horrible. I have the dreaded "PSSD" syndrome, anhedonia, total fatigue and what not. I feel I am in a much much worse state that I was before treatment. In fact, I would give anything to be before I was before treament. I feel I have severe cognitive impairment, ED, constant chronic fatigue, my skin and eyes are dull and lusterluss, before my eyes(depsite being a depressive person) would shine with life and ideas, my sexdrive is zero and so is my exercise tolerance.
I quit university some months ago due to mentioned problems and am now living with my father. I feel, I am a braindead, libido, lifeless búrden upon my parents and I don't know what to do. If I lived alone, I would surely commmit suicide, but I do not paricularity wish to seek help from psychiatry as they have so far made my problems much much worse. I have no trust in psychiatrists and even less their medications and I don't even think they have MAOI's and similar medications in my country,
I do not wish to take X medication for depression, X mediation for sleep, Viagra for sexual function, X mood stabilser, X medication for constipation etc etc.
I am going down to brussels in month in a hormone clinic to get treated for what they believe I have Hypothyrodism, testosterone defiency and some adrenal fatigue. But I doubt this treatment will work and relieve me of fatigue and depression due to that damn lexapro. That's what my intution tells me, and despite me being a depressed guy, I have a freakin scary accurate intution for all things.
I feel as a former guy titled his thread: Damned if you do, damned if you dont. I feel SSRI's have damned me a deal.
Yes youth is on my side, but I've spent 10 years now, especially the last 5 feeling damn miserable, I cannot cope with another 5 yet alone 10.
I'm sorry to post the whine poor me thread, but we all need this every now then don't we,.
Posted by Phillipa on August 3, 2009, at 16:56:19
In reply to Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 16:42:11
Alexander great that you trust us to talk about how horrible you feel. As A thyroid patient good chance your thyroid could be contributing as when mine was diagnosed that's when all the meds started. But to stabalize thyroid you could feel so much better. And same thing with hormones. I see you have plans to go to Belgium. I've been there lovely country. So this doc is a nutritional doc? Do you have a link to his specialties. Please if you feel you may harm yourself or have a plan contact a hospital, hotline. You will and can get well I feel it. And please feel free to babblemail me. Simply click my name in blue and viola screen appears type message and hit send at bottom. But please keep posting. We care and want to help. Love Phillipa
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 17:28:39
In reply to Re: **Trigger **considering suicude » Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by Phillipa on August 3, 2009, at 16:56:19
> Alexander great that you trust us to talk about how horrible you feel. As A thyroid patient good chance your thyroid could be contributing as when mine was diagnosed that's when all the meds started. But to stabalize thyroid you could feel so much better. And same thing with hormones. I see you have plans to go to Belgium. I've been there lovely country. So this doc is a nutritional doc? Do you have a link to his specialties. Please if you feel you may harm yourself or have a plan contact a hospital, hotline. You will and can get well I feel it. And please feel free to babblemail me. Simply click my name in blue and viola screen appears type message and hit send at bottom. But please keep posting. We care and want to help. Love Phillipa
Hi Philippa, I'm going to the clinic of Dr. Hertoghe, who according to some is one of the worlds very best. I won't be seeing him though, but one of the other doctors of the clinic.
I'm just so miserable that SSRI's has caused me lasting damage, as if I wasn't desperate and miserable enough aldready and when you go to your doctor or psychiatrist they will just say "well gee that a sign that your depression is returning and offer more SSRI's or similar medications:
before medication I still had a very high drive in many ways. Drive as in wanting to work to achieve succes, high libido, wanting to get out of depression. After Lexapro, I feel like this apthetic tw*t with no drive even to get out of depression, and my libido is non existant despite always formerly being very high. Also my skin has become thinner and dry(making me suspect hormonal imbalance in the first place). '
I am darn lucky, I have a nice and fairly supportin family, because with out them´, I really would do myself in. I just can't believe they give males antidpressants(as they are called) that make them hypogonadal. What uther tw*ts.
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 17:42:26
In reply to Re: **Trigger **considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 17:28:39
> > Alexander great that you trust us to talk about how horrible you feel. As A thyroid patient good chance your thyroid could be contributing as when mine was diagnosed that's when all the meds started. But to stabalize thyroid you could feel so much better. And same thing with hormones. I see you have plans to go to Belgium. I've been there lovely country. So this doc is a nutritional doc? Do you have a link to his specialties. Please if you feel you may harm yourself or have a plan contact a hospital, hotline. You will and can get well I feel it. And please feel free to babblemail me. Simply click my name in blue and viola screen appears type message and hit send at bottom. But please keep posting. We care and want to help. Love Phillipa
>
> Hi Philippa, I'm going to the clinic of Dr. Hertoghe, who according to some is one of the worlds very best. I won't be seeing him though, but one of the other doctors of the clinic.
>
> I'm just so miserable that SSRI's has caused me lasting damage, as if I wasn't desperate and miserable enough aldready and when you go to your doctor or psychiatrist they will just say "well gee that a sign that your depression is returning and offer more SSRI's or similar medications:
>
> before medication I still had a very high drive in many ways. Drive as in wanting to work to achieve succes, high libido, wanting to get out of depression. After Lexapro, I feel like this apthetic tw*t with no drive even to get out of depression, and my libido is non existant despite always formerly being very high. Also my skin has become thinner and dry(making me suspect hormonal imbalance in the first place). '
>
> I am darn lucky, I have a nice and fairly supportin family, because with out them´, I really would do myself in. I just can't believe they give males antidpressants(as they are called) that make them hypogonadal. What uther tw*ts.
Also forgot to add why I doubt my the treatment from brussels will work. My blood tests are all fairly normal, but not optimal. FX with my thyroid, T4 is okay, but my Ft3 is not top of the range. My TSH is 3.6 while it should be more around 1. My testosterone is around 550 ngdl which is hurray optimal but a lotter better than most people that complain about low T. My cortisol is Normal/high,/High>/normal and DHEA is HIGH/low/HIGH/LOW.As such my hormonal blood tests show that things aren't as good as they could be, but they can hardly explain that utter crapppiness I feel all the time. I have always tried some trials on armour or t3 and they didn't make me feel much better.
Posted by SLS on August 3, 2009, at 17:45:50
In reply to Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 16:42:11
> I'm sorry to be dramatic, but I am, as many have here as probably considered or attemped, suicide.
It is good that you are acknowledging your state of mind and reaching out. I hope you can come away from this realizing that, despite previous failures, there is hope for a successful treatment. Usually, these emotional crises pass if you just hang in there and don't act on impulse.
> I have the dreaded "PSSD" syndrome
Is that anything like the deficit syndrome? What does PSSD stand for?
Even had you not treated your condition, its natural course is usually one of progressive worsening. I can't speak to the potential for SSRIs to make one worse. This has not been my experience, and I haven't researched it. It sounds feasible, though. These are very powerful drugs that do produce major changes in the way the brain operates.
It seems to me that the right treatment will feel as if it has swept up the mess created by previous drug exposures. That is how it feels to me, anyway.
I would not lose hope despite your feeling hopeless and helpless. Those are powerful feelings, and there isn't much that I can do to help them dissipate. Time will do that. However, things might be easier if you know that you are not alone in your predicament, and that, logically, there are alternative treatments yet to explore.
- Scott
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 18:22:59
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude » Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by SLS on August 3, 2009, at 17:45:50
> > I'm sorry to be dramatic, but I am, as many have here as probably considered or attemped, suicide.
>
> It is good that you are acknowledging your state of mind and reaching out. I hope you can come away from this realizing that, despite previous failures, there is hope for a successful treatment. Usually, these emotional crises pass if you just hang in there and don't act on impulse.
>
> > I have the dreaded "PSSD" syndrome
>
> Is that anything like the deficit syndrome? What does PSSD stand for?
>
> Even had you not treated your condition, its natural course is usually one of progressive worsening. I can't speak to the potential for SSRIs to make one worse. This has not been my experience, and I haven't researched it. It sounds feasible, though. These are very powerful drugs that do produce major changes in the way the brain operates.
>
> It seems to me that the right treatment will feel as if it has swept up the mess created by previous drug exposures. That is how it feels to me, anyway.
>
> I would not lose hope despite your feeling hopeless and helpless. Those are powerful feelings, and there isn't much that I can do to help them dissipate. Time will do that. However, things might be easier if you know that you are not alone in your predicament, and that, logically, there are alternative treatments yet to explore.
>
>
> - ScottHi Scott, PSSD stands for post-ssri-sexual-dysfunction for which there is no known cure. It isn't so much the sexual ´dysfunction(though that sucks in what's supposed to be and was a man sexual prime time of life) but the cognitive impairment(apathy, anhedonia, insensitivity, lack of alertness, inattentivness, lethargy etc etc) related to it most like caused to some degree by low dopamine, but not only most likely. I don't feel like experimentiing with any more psycmeds as it was never my intention and still isn't to become a lab rat and do the AD merry go around.
Posted by SLS on August 3, 2009, at 18:41:49
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 18:22:59
That really sucks.
:-(
PSSD and the other things you describe does sound very much like the deficit syndrome that is observed in schizophrenia. Dopamine.
I understand that you have no intention to use drugs to treat your condition. I would be curious, though, if anyone with PSSD has tried using Abilify or amisulpride to treat it.
Perhaps people on the Alternative board can make some suggestions.
Is there anything that members here can do for you to help you through this? What resources do you have available to get some help?
- Scott
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 19:07:27
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude » Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by SLS on August 3, 2009, at 18:41:49
> That really sucks.
>
> :-(
>
> PSSD and the other things you describe does sound very much like the deficit syndrome that is observed in schizophrenia. Dopamine.
>
> I understand that you have no intention to use drugs to treat your condition. I would be curious, though, if anyone with PSSD has tried using Abilify or amisulpride to treat it.
>
> Perhaps people on the Alternative board can make some suggestions.
>
> Is there anything that members here can do for you to help you through this? What resources do you have available to get some help?
>
>
> - ScottI don't believe there is any schizophrenia in me. How would antipsychotics help low DA symptoms? Aren't they used to lower DA?
My rescources are:
A endocrinologists in Belgium that may to treat suspected hormone imbalances: I'm crossing fingers this is the magic answer.
I am scheldued to see a doctor(not a psychiatrist though) at a psychiatric hospital in less in a month. I am not sure what I will be discussing and I'm not sure what's gonna come out of it.
I will, unless my appointment at the psyc hospital changes this, have to wait over 1 year to see a psychiatrist again. As my last psychiatric treatment was a catastrohphe and detrimental, I'm not aching to see one again, but I'm at the end of my rope and need some help somehow. I can't pull it off with sheer willpower and life changes etc etc.
Posted by ColoradoSnowflake on August 3, 2009, at 19:21:42
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 18:22:59
Hi Alexander:
I just wanted you to know how sorry I am that you are feeling so awful; hopeless and despairing. I have been there more than I want to admit, and it sucks.
I'm glad that you're able to talk about it with people who DO understand. And please get the help you need if it gets too bad to tolerate.
It sounds like the clinic you are going to in Belgium is excellent! and right on with the hormones and endocrine system.
Hang in there, Buddy,
gayle
Posted by Sigismund on August 3, 2009, at 20:16:58
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 19:07:27
Surely somehow, eventually, you will be able to find a doctor who will prescribe agomelatine.
I forget if you have trouble sleeping.
If you can get yourself well enough to be able to do things that make you feel somewhat better, and so that you can treat your problems with benign medications (mainly herbal medicines and the usual alternative things), you may be able to turn around the vicious circle.
Your experience with psychiatry has been terrible, but you have learned a great deal from it. When I was young the future stretched ahead endlessly and painfully and I couldn't imagine getting to be 28. It's not so odd. As an adult just going into a children's party, it is striking how sociable it all is, like they are all on cocaine.....they are so excited. It's not hard to see that such hard-wired pressures for socialisation may predispose some of us to go under when it doesn't work out as we need it to. Life is an endurance test, life is a waste of time, life is wonderful, pretend it's real, try not to worry and so on and so forth. You are young and you can get better, because you have learned a great deal.
Posted by linkadge on August 3, 2009, at 20:32:43
In reply to Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 16:42:11
I can identify with most of the feelings and situations you have given. I had to stop university for a while to get over depression. I also have PSSD, but it has improved dramatically with time, exercise and a healthy diet. Don't think of yourself as a failure. Get yourself feeling better and you will find an avenue for your future which is appropriate for you.
Try to look for something to keep you somewhat buisy. A part time job helped me reduce some of the feelings of complete worthlessness.
I wish you the best. Hang in there.
P.s. Take a TSP of turmeric per day.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on August 3, 2009, at 20:50:01
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by linkadge on August 3, 2009, at 20:32:43
Alexander you're getting some excellent advise from excellent sources. The clinic sounds great what about something natural such as ST John's Wort? For depression. I bet with time the PSSD goes away. You are soooooo young. And the future holds great things for you. One question the wait is a year for a pdoc in Sweden? Or am I mistaken? Bet a lot of alternative posters will chime in. Just hang in there. Love Phillipa
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 21:17:02
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Phillipa on August 3, 2009, at 20:50:01
> Alexander you're getting some excellent advise from excellent sources. The clinic sounds great what about something natural such as ST John's Wort? For depression. I bet with time the PSSD goes away. You are soooooo young. And the future holds great things for you. One question the wait is a year for a pdoc in Sweden? Or am I mistaken? Bet a lot of alternative posters will chime in. Just hang in there. Love Phillipa
St. John's wort has no effect on me. It had some effect on me 2 years ago, but if I take it now, I may as well have been taking a sugar pill. The same way with caffeine. 2 Years ago, a cup of strong coffee would give me a nice little kick. No nothing. It's like I feel completely resistant/numb to everything. I even found some of my old pregabalin tablets and took some in higher dosages than when I was on it in the name of science. Nothing, zilch and it's a pretty damn strong drug. Before treatment, my mood was a mood rollercoaster each day, now it's just flat all day long, day after day after day. Before I was too sensitive. Now I'm too insensitive.But thanks for the responses I'm getting from all you guys. It's good to get some feedback.
Posted by Sigismund on August 3, 2009, at 21:25:20
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 21:17:02
>Before treatment, my mood was a mood rollercoaster each day, now it's just flat all day long, day after day after day. Before I was too sensitive. Now I'm too insensitive.
Maybe psychiatry achieved its purpose?
My shrink says the profession is full of flatliners, who, when they get older, become depressed when they come to the opinion that they have been part of a faith based marketing effort.
In the 70s it was Sargent and how there were lesions that caused it. Now we have neurotransmitters.
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 21:44:10
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Sigismund on August 3, 2009, at 21:25:20
> >Before treatment, my mood was a mood rollercoaster each day, now it's just flat all day long, day after day after day. Before I was too sensitive. Now I'm too insensitive.
>
> Maybe psychiatry achieved its purpose?
>
> My shrink says the profession is full of flatliners, who, when they get older, become depressed when they come to the opinion that they have been part of a faith based marketing effort.
> In the 70s it was Sargent and how there were lesions that caused it. Now we have neurotransmitters.What's Sargent? I googled it. Couldn't find it. If what I am in is not a state of depression, I must say I'd take depression any day.
Posted by Phillipa on August 3, 2009, at 21:45:47
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 21:17:02
Okay that one didn't work we're getting somewhere process of elimination. And yes a chance to talk and great advise. Love Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on August 3, 2009, at 22:25:40
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 21:44:10
"...Jesus Christ might simply have returned to his carpentry following the use of modern [psychiatric] treatments." - William Sargant
Sargant (sp?) was a leading biological psychiatrist of 40 years who believed, as they did then, that mental illness could be located in lesion of the brain which made certain avenues of treatment possible.
Posted by Sigismund on August 3, 2009, at 22:35:12
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Sigismund on August 3, 2009, at 22:25:40
It's a complete delight...... The history of psychiatry.
There is this, and it leads onto Harry bailey and Chelmsford, where 26(?) Australians were 'killed', as the Royal Commission described it, and hundreds damaged for life.>He wrote in his standard textbook An Introduction to Physical Methods of Treatment in Psychiatry: 'Many patients unable to tolerate a long course of ECT, can do so when anxiety is relieved by narcosis ... What is so valuable is that they generally have no memory about the actual length of the treatment or the numbers of ECT used ... After 3 or 4 treatments they may ask for ECT to be discontinued because of an increasing dread of further treatments. Combining sleep with ECT avoids this ...'. Sargant also advocated increasing the frequency of ECT sessions for those he describes as 'resistant, obsessional patients' in order to produce 'therapeutic confusion' and so remove their power of refusal. In addition he states: 'All sorts of treatment can be given while the patient is kept sleeping, including a variety of drugs and ECT [which] together generally induce considerable memory loss for the period under narcosis. As a rule the patient does not know how long he has been asleep, or what treatment, even including ECT, he has been given. Under sleep ... one can now give many kinds of physical treatment, necessary, but often not easily tolerated. We may be seeing here a new exciting beginning in psychiatry and the possibility of a treatment era such as followed the introduction of anaesthesia in surgery'.[10] Sargant's methods inspired Australian doctor Harry Bailey who employed Deep Sleep treatment at Chelmsford Private Hospital, eventually leading to the death of 26 patients. Bailey and Sargant were in close contact and apparently competed to see which of them could keep a patient in the depest coma.[11]
Posted by alchemy on August 3, 2009, at 23:07:57
In reply to Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 16:42:11
I'm not sure what to say except ya, it sucks.
I guess at least you know that SSRIs suck for your body. Someday they should be able to see what meds, supplements, or if anything will help a certain person. SSRIs help me, but that is just me. Are the med trials worth it? It depends on who you ask, but I hope you don't give up on trying a few more. Maybe they will reverse the damage that's been done.
Posted by morganpmiller on August 3, 2009, at 23:52:35
In reply to Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 16:42:11
Did you say why you stopped lexapro?
Exactly how long have you been off it?
I'm sorry your feeling so bad and have dealt with depression for so long. I can relate to feeling horrible and having fatigue that may be at least partially due to medications.
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2009, at 2:45:36
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 3, 2009, at 19:07:27
Abilify and low-dose amisulpride are used to treat depression through a pro-dopaminergic mechanism. Abilify is a D2 and D3 receptor partial agonist. Amisulpride is a preferential DA autoreceptor antagonist. Both drugs are effective in treating the negative symptoms of schizophrenia - the deficit syndrome. This syndrome includes all the symptoms you describe. Both drugs are now also used to treat depression.
- Scott
Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 4, 2009, at 4:09:12
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by SLS on August 4, 2009, at 2:45:36
> Abilify and low-dose amisulpride are used to treat depression through a pro-dopaminergic mechanism. Abilify is a D2 and D3 receptor partial agonist. Amisulpride is a preferential DA autoreceptor antagonist. Both drugs are effective in treating the negative symptoms of schizophrenia - the deficit syndrome. This syndrome includes all the symptoms you describe. Both drugs are now also used to treat depression.
>so it's realistic to believe that Abilify could assist with anhedonia that might not derive from schizophrenia? aren't its DA-agonist properties restricted to lower doses? are there less potential s/e's at lower doses?
Posted by SLS on August 4, 2009, at 6:12:36
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 4, 2009, at 4:09:12
> > Abilify and low-dose amisulpride are used to treat depression through a pro-dopaminergic mechanism. Abilify is a D2 and D3 receptor partial agonist. Amisulpride is a preferential DA autoreceptor antagonist. Both drugs are effective in treating the negative symptoms of schizophrenia - the deficit syndrome. This syndrome includes all the symptoms you describe. Both drugs are now also used to treat depression.
> >
>
> so it's realistic to believe that Abilify could assist with anhedonia that might not derive from schizophrenia? aren't its DA-agonist properties restricted to lower doses? are there less potential s/e's at lower doses?Doctors who are now prescribing Abilify are using lower dosages than what would be appropriate for schizophrenia. It probably works best when added to other drugs. However, even at high dosages, Abilify retains its postsynaptic agonist properties. With amisulpride and sulpiride, lower dosages produce the antidepressant effect, as they tend to bind to presynaptic autoreceptors selectively. It is at higher concentrations that these drugs begin to block postsynaptic receptors; the net effect being that of an antipsychotic. I would try Abilify first, mainly because it does not raise prolactin the way amisulpride and especially sulpiride do. Also, Abilify should have less potential to produce EPS involuntary movements, although it probably causes more akathisia.
For me, the akathisia type restlessness when starting Abilify was mild and disappeared within a few days. My initial dosage was 20mg. I tried lowering it to 10mg, but it seemed that 20mg was more effective. Most people report having more energy and motivation while taking Abilify. I think it also helped with anhedonia, but only mildly so. Recently, most people using it for depression are using dosages of 2-5mg. I don't know whether or not the higher dosages are necessary for more severe depressions or perhaps for bipolar depressions. Because of my experience with Abilify, I would encourage someone who is not getting any benefit at the lower dosages to continue to titrate higher, so long as they are tolerating it. A friend of mine with unipolar depression cannot go higher than 2.5mg without getting cognitive side effects. However, she is responding very well at this dosage.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on August 4, 2009, at 19:46:44
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude » Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by SLS on August 3, 2009, at 17:45:50
Alexander when do you leave for the clinic? Love Phillipa
Posted by whitmore on August 4, 2009, at 21:25:13
In reply to Re: Sorry to be dramatic but considering suicude, posted by Phillipa on August 4, 2009, at 19:46:44
Actually, I think your TSH is rather high. I was given some thyroid med. when my level was only 2.9 and I think and it made quite a difference to my depression. Pdocs in the Us are quite ready to give thyroid meds if you are not 'optimal'and the upper level that defines euthyroid keeps being reduced. I take Armour thyroid. I imagine that would be available in the EU and might be worth a shot.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.