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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 62 to 86 of 89. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on February 5, 2009, at 1:54:57
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » NewQuestions, posted by Garnet71 on February 4, 2009, at 21:50:52
Posted by NewQuestions on February 5, 2009, at 9:35:50
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » SLS, posted by SLS on February 5, 2009, at 1:52:52
Assuming it is the glutamatergic pathways, how do I fix it? My most distressing symptons are cognitive decline (memory, abstract reasoning, learning) and lack of energy.
Posted by SLS on February 5, 2009, at 13:52:29
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on February 5, 2009, at 9:35:50
> Assuming it is the glutamatergic pathways, how do I fix it? My most distressing symptons are cognitive decline (memory, abstract reasoning, learning) and lack of energy.
That sounds like depression to me, my friend. Often, we confuse withdrawal for relapse. Is there anything that leads you to believe that you are not experiencing a relapse?
I think using anticonvulsants or benzodiazepines might help mitigate an ongoing withdrawal syndrome if kindling is to be avoided. Actually, a more rational approach is not to let the withdrawal syndrome develop in the first place. I believe this can be done with a flexible-dosing strategy. Please see: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/wdrawl/20081229/msgs/877349.html
Please write back. I'd like to get to the bottom of this.
- Scott
Posted by NewQuestions on February 5, 2009, at 17:08:08
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » NewQuestions, posted by SLS on February 5, 2009, at 13:52:29
Winter 1994: start Zoloft, work up to 200mg, no atypical side effects
August 2002: Zoloft side effects change dramatically--more lethargic, less muscle energy, brain fog, confusion, heaviness, mentally lazy, nonrestful sleep, more withdrawn, physically grooming worsens. It was still "working" on my depression but the side effects were overwhelming. What was the cause? Is this poop out or something else?
Winter 2003: wean off zoloft and onto Lexapro--very difficult--seem to experience withdrawal effects from zoloft and SSRI side effects from Lexapro at same time--confusion, muscle energy, fogginess
Winter 2004: I finally got off zoloft, and some of the heaviness and confusion was gone. However, still experiencing similar side effects on Lexapro. Tapered from 20 mg to 10 mg of Lexapro and experience new clarity and energy. However, experienced withdrawal--nausea, lack of energy and anxieties come back. So I stayed on 10 mg of Lexapro and tried Cymbalta. Very energizing but caused anxiety. Wellibutrin and TCA's caused hypomania.
Next, tried Remeron which made me feel better, smarter, more cognitive energy, relieved the inner-tension but it made me incrediably tired during the day. I tried prozac (small dose) and for the first 4 weeks, it was great. It stimulated me and gave me cognitive energy. However, it suddenly sent me into a suicidal depression, which didn't go away until over a month later, i.e., when the prozac with its long half life exited my body. Yes, it was the drug, it was not environmental.
In September 2006, tried remeron again and it gave me a numbing depression. (Same drug different effect--did the prozac adverse reaction change me?) All of the benzos gave me a similar numbing depression (except Ativan). Then I tried effexor. Effective against depression but was hypersentitive to it. It caused jitterines, lack of inner well-being, some cognitive impairment. Worsened anxiety. Started to take Ativan regular to conteract jitteriness.
In November 2007, I stopped effexor. This was the first time I was off a sertonin boosting drug in 12 years. After a couple of months, I got depressed with feelings of hopelessness. I was also more obsessive, including sexually and extremely nervous. Tried a small dose of Lamictal and it seemed to help a little.
In April 2008, I tried stablon. It did not work and may make me worse.
In June 2008, I increased lamictal but it caused major cognitive impairment. Not only could I not finish sentences, but I couldn't even think. People thought I had ADD. In retrospect, the cognitive impairment maybe a delayed withdrawal symptom, due to lack of a sertonin drug (last dose in November of 2007) and not from the lamictal.
In July 2008, weaned off lamictal and start taking MAOI Parnate. Parnate helped with the depression, but the side effects were overwhelming including blurry vision, weakness, dry mouth, spiders crawling on skin, swollen ankles, insomnia, day time sleepiness, drugged feeling, apathetic, confusion, memory and learning impairment and extreme irritability. My guess at the time was the confusion was caused by the norepinhperine.
I went down to 1 pill (10 mg?) around the middle of November and immediately felt better. Then I tried a small dose of Adderall. I felt an adrenaline boost and I had more energy including cognitive energy. However, the adrenaline boost wore off and I felt the same confusion I felt on a higher dose Parnate.
Since reducing Parnate, noticed sexual obssession. Read online that some people who take Parnate experience sexual obsessions.
Last dose of Parnate was on December 18, 2008.
In January, 2009, I tried small dose of Inostiol--helped with obsessiveness but made me more depressed, especially in morning; tried small dose of 5-HTP--saw immediate improvement in skin and hair (retained oils), and helped with obsessiveness and anxiety, but made me depressed. Bad reactions to small doses of magnesium and choline too.
I am now off of everything except 1 mg Ativan.
Current symptoms:
Derealisation and depersonalisation (for 2 or 3 years)
irritability (last couple of years)
Vision problems, foggy vision, focus problems (more recent)
Cognitive problems, foggy brain, memory and concentration problems, inability to learn or think abstractly (memory, inability to learn and abstract reasoning within last year)
sexual obsessions (recent)
Muscle weakness, fatigue, low stamina (had this since Zoloft pooped out)
Apathy, lack of emotions (had this since Zoloft pooped out)
Sticky skin, waxy hair, skin rashes (had this since Zoloft pooped out)
Horrible sensations like heavy head, head pressures (more recent)
can't handle stress, racing thoughts (2 or 3 years)
Worse anxiety and depression than pre-ADs--its a physical anxiety (last year)
Dizziness in different ways, vertical and horizontal; major internal restlessness (2 or 3 years)
Inability to enjoy everyday things, including music, movies, etc (2 or 3 years)
personality change (gradually changed)I am extremely hypersensitive to sound, drugs, amino acids and B vitamins. Arguably, the hypersenitivity started when zoloft pooped out.
The only thing I take is 1 mg Ativan. The confusion and cognitive issues could a side effect of the Ativan but they are so extreme, I think they are related to the withdrawal.
WHAT IS HAPPENING TO ME?
Posted by SLS on February 5, 2009, at 17:43:19
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on February 5, 2009, at 17:08:08
NQ.
First of all - relax. Nothing is happening to you that hasn't happened to others. You are not doomed!
It will take me awhile to digest your whole post. I'm currently having trouble reading.
> Wellibutrin and TCA's caused hypomania.
Easy decision here. Allow the hypomania and control it with an atypical AP or whatever it takes. Depakote even. Doctors only wished that such would happen to me. Yes. I think this is an experiment worth performing.
Maybe you could start with the AP first. Get settled. I would love to see you be able to handle Abilify 10-20mg. Whatever. Then, after you are at a stable dosage of the AP and get past the startup side effects, then add the drug of your choice that would otherwise produce a hypomania. The AP should prevent that from happening, and you will feel great and live happily everafter.
I guarantee it. Well, maybe not. But I like your chances. You'll have to work on the happily everafter part separately, but the process of the journey will be a joy.
I would try it. It is certainly safe.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 5, 2009, at 17:53:04
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on February 5, 2009, at 17:08:08
You might want to have your thyroid checked. You might be hyperthyroid.
- Scott
Posted by garnet71 on February 6, 2009, at 0:32:20
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on February 5, 2009, at 17:08:08
I'm not going to sugar coat this, NewQuestions. Sorry, it's for your own good.
If you are not planning to see an endochronologist, neurologist, rheuematologist and perhaps others, you may be self-sabotaging yourself. The last time we spoke, you said "I know, I should go to an endochronologist..., but..." But being the key word.
Edema, muscle weakness, and dizziness/tinnutis are symptoms that should never be overlooked, or viewed under the lone lens of psychiatrists.
As you know, the operationalization of the body occurs from the brain and ALL the other systems. and organs...you cannot seperate 'brain' issues with the others - if you go to a pdoc and have more medications pumped in your brain, don't expect to get better. There is something more going on.
PLEASE - don't go there.
Sorry to be so blunt.
Posted by SLS on February 6, 2009, at 5:22:31
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on February 5, 2009, at 17:08:08
Hi NQ.
As has been suggested, you could certainly go for endocrinological tests to rule out other explanations for your experiences. I would at least go for thyroid and cortisol testing. I'll be very interested to know the other tests the doctor orders.
Hyperthyroidism can sensitize NE receptors.
The antidepressant-induced mania is, I believe, a sign of bipolarity.
Which of the maniagenic drugs would you choose to take, and why? (Wellbutrin versus TCA)
- Scott
Posted by NewQuestions on February 6, 2009, at 8:34:17
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » NewQuestions, posted by SLS on February 6, 2009, at 5:22:31
At this point, I think the drugs are making me worse, not better. Two things appear to be going on:
1. My body is suffering from withdraw leading to increased cortiol production and HPA axis dysregulation. This causes the hypersentivity to the drugs and the drug agitation.
Of course, I could take the drugs REALLY REALLY SLOWLY. But there is something else happening
2. Once the drug kicks in, I am having paradoxical effects. Benzos, prosac and remeron make me MORE depressed. Cymbalta and Effexor make more MORE anxious. Wellbutrin and TCA's appear intolerable--one small dose makes my mind race and my heart pound.
Thus, it appears the only thing to do is take a really long drug holiday.
Tell me why I am wrong?
Posted by SLS on February 6, 2009, at 8:42:49
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on February 6, 2009, at 8:34:17
> At this point, I think the drugs are making me worse, not better. Two things appear to be going on:
>
> 1. My body is suffering from withdraw leading to increased cortiol production and HPA axis dysregulation. This causes the hypersentivity to the drugs and the drug agitation.
>
> Of course, I could take the drugs REALLY REALLY SLOWLY. But there is something else happening
>
> 2. Once the drug kicks in, I am having paradoxical effects. Benzos, prosac and remeron make me MORE depressed. Cymbalta and Effexor make more MORE anxious. Wellbutrin and TCA's appear intolerable--one small dose makes my mind race and my heart pound.
>
> Thus, it appears the only thing to do is take a really long drug holiday.
>
> Tell me why I am wrong?You're not.
I was under the impression that Wellbutrin and TCAs produced hypomania only. You didn't mention anything about additional side effects or that these drugs were otherwise intolerable.
If you can manage a drug holiday, then I don't see why it would not make sense to do so. I'm sure your system would welcome the opportunity to establish an equilibrium.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 6, 2009, at 11:46:48
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on February 4, 2009, at 14:25:08
> In my humble opinion, discontinuation syndrome is a form of hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis dysregulation.
>
> I believe the HPA axis dysregulation resulting from discontinuation syndrome makes us hypersensitive -- we don't need much of anything to tip into HPA overdrive.For some depressives, this may be true. It's long been recognized that abnormalities in both baseline HPA function, and in its response to stimulation, are associated with mood disorders. In contrast to your thoughts, I think the evidence shows that antidepressant therapy often fails to normalize HPA function during treatment, and in that respect its failure is due to its having been an inappropriate treatment. Depression is a heterogenous disorder, and one lone treatment strategy just doesn't meet every need.
The following study looked at 235 inpatient depressives, and sought correlations between HPA-axis function and a large number of potential influences upon it.
Pharmacological and Nonpharmacological Factors Influencing HypothalamicPituitaryAdrenocortical Axis Reactivity in Acutely Depressed Psychiatric In-patients, Measured by the Dex-CRH Test
(full-text link)
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v28/n12/full/1300280a.htmlI've pulled some selected quotes from it, and I'll make some comments as I go through them.
"The reactivity of the HPA-axis in this test, however, ranges over several orders of magnitude in depressed patients with comparable severity of symptoms....peak cortisol values range from 3.9 to 332.4 ng/ml (mean/SD=62.6/55.3)."
I think this is an amazingly important finding. There is roughly 100-fold difference in peak cortisol response across this sample population of acutely depressed patients. Depressive symptomatology is not a predictor of HPA activity or sensitivity.
"We first investigated whether the type of current antidepressant treatment affected the outcome of the Dex-CRH test. In all, 32 patients did not receive any medication at the time of the Dex-CRH test. The other patients were divided according to the class of the administered antidepressants, the largest groups being selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) (N=58), tricyclic antidepressants (N=37), and mirtazapine (N=27). A general linear model showed no significant effect of type of antidepressant treatment on any of the Dex-CRH test parameters."
This finding doesn't rule out the possibility that some individuals were significantly influenced by treatment modality, but overall, no effect of acute antidepressant treatment was observed.
"A partial correlation analysis showed no correlation of any of the investigated Dex-CRH test parameters with the number of antidepressant treatment trial in the index episode or overall."
The number of times a person was treated with antidepressants did not influence HPA function.
"Nonparametric analysis showed significant differences between patients whose episode started under an established psychopharmacotherapy (n=36) vs patients who were not treated (n=160) at the time of the onset of the current episode."
Subjects whose depression relapse occurred while medicated had enhanced HPA activity. So, rather than medication per se, medication failure is an acute trigger of HPA activity.
"We could not show an association of presence or absence of antidepressant treatment, the type of antidepressant treatment or of the number of previous ineffective antidepressant treatment attempts before hospitalization and the results of the Dex-CRH test, indicating that the reported normalizing effect of antidepressant treatment on the Dex-CRH test is actually dependent on clinical improvement and not just a pharmacological side effect."
Remission of symptoms during treatment is associated with normalization of HPA parameters, and that is independent of prior experiences.
In discussing the finding that relapse during treatment led to exaggerated HPA response, they said:
"One possible explanation of this effect may be that patients relapsing without an established pharmacotherapy are also more likely to have no medication at the time of the test. Indeed 26 patients in this group vs only two in the treated group were medicated at the time of the test."I point this out simply to emphasize that this finding may be due to selection bias alone. These subjects ended up in the trial because they were experiencing relapse during treatment. They may be atypical.
There was then substantial discussion in the paper about some physiological HPA regulatory parameters that may be influenced by antidepressants, but they then say:
"It is also conceivable that patients with a recurrent depressive disorders, who are more likely to relapse under pharmacotherapy, represent a biologically distinct subgroup of patients, featuring enhanced cortisol and ACTH responses in the Dex-CRH test."They make the atypical subject argument more concise.
What seems to come through for me, reading this paper and others in a similar vein, is that HPA dysfunction is a fundamental characteristic of depression. It remits when depression remits. It also precedes, and therefore predicts, relapse. For those individuals with exaggerated HPA response, treatment selection ought to be a primary concern. I think it's a failure in the typical diagnostic process that HPA function is not fully assessed prior to, and during, treatment. This study found 100-fold HPA variability in its subjects. I strongly suspect that HPA function is relatively stable in each individual, despite the variability within the group. What you bring into depression (HPA function trait) stays with you in treatment, remission, or relapse. Specific treatments may be appropriate or inappropriate for an individual, but are not the cause of the HPA dysfunction itself. In my opinion.
Lar
Posted by SLS on February 6, 2009, at 12:32:59
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » NewQuestions, posted by Larry Hoover on February 6, 2009, at 11:46:48
Did you find any studies examining the dexamethasone suppression test (DST)? It might give a more pertinent measurement of HPA axis dysregulation than measuring blood or salivary cortisol levels.
I tested positive on both.
- Scott
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 6, 2009, at 13:26:12
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » Larry Hoover, posted by SLS on February 6, 2009, at 12:32:59
> Did you find any studies examining the dexamethasone suppression test (DST)?
Recent ones? There are very few of those.
> It might give a more pertinent measurement of HPA axis dysregulation than measuring blood or salivary cortisol levels.
>
> I tested positive on both.
>
>
> - ScottWhat I found was that dexamethasone suppression/nonsuppression isn't used as a stand-alone test very often any more. Usually the "measure" they're looking for is a subsequent response to CRH post-dexamethasone. Or a change in baseline cortisol resulting from dexamethasone exposure.
I honestly wonder if they've yet got any idea of just what is they're looking at, or looking for.
Here is a bit of recent stuff, one abstract, and two links to full-text articles. The latter link raises some interesting considerations.
Regards,
LarScientificWorldJournal. 2006 Oct 31;6:1398-404.
Combined dexamethasone suppression-corticotropin-releasing hormone stimulation test in studies of depression, alcoholism, and suicidal behavior.Sher L.
Division of Neuroscience, Department of Psychiatry, Columbia University, New York, USA. LS2003@columbia.eduThe hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis controls the secretion of corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH), corticotropin (adrenocorticotropic hormone, ACTH), and cortisol. The dexamethasone suppression test (DST) is the most frequently used test to assess HPA system function in psychiatric disorders. Patients who have failed to suppress plasma cortisol secretion, i.e., who escape from the suppressive effect of dexamethasone, have a blunted glucocorticoid receptor response. After CRH became available for clinical studies, the DST was combined with CRH administration. The resulting combined dexamethasone suppression-corticotropin-releasing hormone stimulation (DST-CRH) test proved to be more sensitive in detecting HPA system changes than the DST. There is a growing interest in the use of the DEX-CRH test for psychiatric research. The DEX-CRH test has been used to study different psychiatric conditions. Major depression, alcoholism, and suicidal behavior are public health problems around the world. Considerable evidence suggests that HPA dysregulation is involved in the pathogenesis of depressive disorders, alcoholism, and suicidal behavior. Over the past 2 decades, there has been a shift from viewing excessive HPA activity in depression as an epiphenomenon to its having specific effects on symptom formation and cognition. The study of HPA function in depression, alcoholism, and suicidal behavior may yield new understanding of the pathophysiology of these conditions, and suggest new approaches for therapeutic interventions. The combined DEX-CRH test may become a useful neuroendocrinological tool for evaluating psychiatric patients.
Revisiting the Dexamethasone Suppression Test in unipolar major depression: an exploratory study
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=19014558Season of birth, clinical manifestations and Dexamethasone Suppression Test in unipolar major depression.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17683542
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on February 14, 2009, at 3:48:38
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me » NewQuestions, posted by SLS on February 6, 2009, at 8:42:49
It's funny I should reád trhis. I'm having excactly the same problem post-lexapro, after I was on it for year. If you figure out how to fix it, please let me know.
Myself, I'm looking into the thyroid and the adrenals which a very important in the dopamine system.
Posted by NewQuestions on February 17, 2009, at 8:48:10
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on February 14, 2009, at 3:48:38
What is your drug history and symptoms?
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on February 17, 2009, at 16:12:49
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on February 17, 2009, at 8:48:10
Hi
I was on Lexapro for about a year, perhaps more and Lyrica(pregabalin) for six months. I was on them´for depression and anxiety I suppose. Before the meds, my symptoms were basicly chronic constipation, swinging levels of energy between fatigue or restlessness and insomnia and hypersomnia, and most thoughts inherent to depression and anxiety. But I still had a sex drive always, and I could still drink alchohol and basicly get on with it.
Now my symptoms after I discountinoued all medicaiton around 6 months ago,
Hi, my symptoms are
-Fatigue, all day
-Dry skin and hair(still there before meds)
-Dark Circles under eyes(were still there before meds)
-Impaired mental energy, concentration, focus, mood, attention, memory
-Chronic constipation(still there before meds)
-Water retention, bloating and increased fat in mid-section
-General feeling of dryness
-NO sexdrive and decreased ability to get and hold erections(very new, never a problem before SSRI usage)Basicly I think SSRI usage has knocked out my dopamine system, but I can never know of course. So right no I'm getting tests to get my endoctrine system checked out.
Posted by Questionmark on February 18, 2009, at 3:54:17
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on February 6, 2009, at 8:34:17
I'm not certain of course, but it could very well be that your withdrawing from SSRIs, and the resulting serotonin receptor [re]adaptation. Since starting or restarting SSRIs can often take several days or longer for the serotonin neurons' receptor makeup to alter in a subjectively effective/positive manner, it's possible that you may just not have been retaking the particular SSRI for long enough each time. Of course that's only a possibility i wanted to point out as worth considering, i could be completely wrong and it may be something more or different than that.
Also, i'm not saying SSRIs can't create some major problems, esp in the long run, sometimes. But still if it was just working a certain way before and isnt shortly after quitting, when trying reinstate it, then you may have just not given enough time.
Good luck.> At this point, I think the drugs are making me worse, not better. Two things appear to be going on:
>
> 1. My body is suffering from withdraw leading to increased cortiol production and HPA axis dysregulation. This causes the hypersentivity to the drugs and the drug agitation.
>
> Of course, I could take the drugs REALLY REALLY SLOWLY. But there is something else happening
>
> 2. Once the drug kicks in, I am having paradoxical effects. Benzos, prosac and remeron make me MORE depressed. Cymbalta and Effexor make more MORE anxious. Wellbutrin and TCA's appear intolerable--one small dose makes my mind race and my heart pound.
>
> Thus, it appears the only thing to do is take a really long drug holiday.
>
> Tell me why I am wrong?
>
Posted by NewQuestions on February 18, 2009, at 9:24:32
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on February 17, 2009, at 16:12:49
I am not sure you were on an SSRI long enough to get "destabilized" from it. While you will definitely experience withdrawal, it should only last up to 3 months for short-term users. Your conditions may be part of the underlying illness and not SSRI or withdrawal related. Have you gotten your blood checked out?
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on February 18, 2009, at 10:19:52
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me--Alexand, posted by NewQuestions on February 18, 2009, at 9:24:32
Yeah, I've been off medications since september last year. You should think that an SSRI, couldn't cause the problems I have now, but the the fact is that, I have issues now that I never had pre-SSRI usage. I have no conclusive blood test or mri scans to prove the connection, just my own experience.
Since they offer no blood test indicating a serotonin defiency, I don't find the thought surprising that 1 year of elevated serotonin can cause lasting problems, especially if there was no serotonin defiency to begin with. I never got much benefit from Lexapro, and should never have stayed on it past three months. Also SSRI's decrease HGH production, lower free tetosterone, cause high morning cortisol and lower T3. Certainly SSRI's are no boon to the body.
My blood tests revealed cortisol abnormalities, a TSH slighty above the reference range, and a T3 in the low end of normal. Same goes for DHEA.
Posted by 49er on February 21, 2009, at 15:07:32
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me--Alexand, posted by NewQuestions on February 18, 2009, at 9:24:32
> I am not sure you were on an SSRI long enough to get "destabilized" from it. While you will definitely experience withdrawal, it should only last up to 3 months for short-term users. Your conditions may be part of the underlying illness and not SSRI or withdrawal related. Have you gotten your blood checked out?
That is not accurate.
While not admittedly common, there are people who have had adverse reactions that have suffered for months. Someone just posted on the Paxil Progress Board who was in this situation but who fortunately finally recovered.
Also, please reread the symptoms the person posted. Some of them could be related to depression (I don't think they are but I can see why people would feel differently) but others such as bloating are definitely not depression related.
49er
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on July 27, 2009, at 10:43:19
In reply to Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on January 16, 2009, at 10:28:30
> I have posted my story before. I continue to post it for those who may be able to help me but didn't see my earlier posts.
>
> My story: I started to suffer depression, anxiety and OCD at age 18. I would ruminate over prior failures and get severely depressed. I did not experience any manias. I did not seek help until I was 26, when I dropped out of law school due to stress, at which point I started taking zoloft. I was on 200 mg of zoloft for 8 years, which helped a lot and had only the typical (mild) side effects. Then, after 8 years, I started to notice a major change. I became lethargic, had less muscle energy, mentally foggy and lazy, heaviness, had non-restful sleep, more withdrawn, and my physical appearance/grooming grew worse. The zoloft was still "working" but the side effects became overwhelming. So, I tried other SSRI's and they also had devastating side effects. Lexapro gave me SE's similar to zoloft. Prozac (very small dose) was great for the first 4 weeks (smarter, more cognitive energy), but then made me incredibly depressed. The other anti-depressants also had bad SEs. Remeron made me feel better, smarter, more cognitive energy, relieved inner-tension but it made me incredibly tired during the day (I tried it again later and it gave me a numbing depression.) Cymbalta and Buspar made me too anxious. One small dose of Wellbutrin drove me crazy. I tried a very small dose of Effexor and it helped with the depression, but increased anxiety (jitteriness) and internal
> restlessness. All the benzos give me a numbing depression, except Ativan. SAM-e helped with the depression, but affected my concentration and made me jittery. Stablon did not do anything.
> Lamictal, which helped a little, had serious memory/cognitive effects. I tried Parnate and experienced every side effect in the book.
> Recently, I tried a very small dose of inositol and then 5-HTP (less than 10 mg) and they made me more depressed within a few days. (Interestingly, the 5-HTP greatly improved my hair and skin, making it retain oils. Without it, my hair and skin are dry, presumably a side effect of long term SSRI use.)
>
> My doctor has no idea what happened, except that I have become severely hypersensitive to all drugs. I am even hypersensitve to other things like inositol and 5-HTP. The smallest of doses affect me. We discussed that I may be bipolar II but
> it does not sound right. I do not suffer any type of mania, elevated moods, elevated productivity or anything like that. I also did not experience much relief on Lamictal or fish oil, and the SSRI's did work, at least for a while. I have gotten full blood tests (testosterone, thyroid, etc.). My most recent test revealed:
>
> 1. ALT and AST are way above normal. They were high years ago, then went back to normal range and now are above normal.
>
> 2. Folate is way above normal (22.83). I am not sure why, because I don't eat green leafy vegables much. My diet consists of cereral, sushi and cookies. I drink one diet coke and one cup of coffee a day. I drink a lot of seltzer because of the dry mouth. B12 is at the higher end of the range.
>
> 3. My HDL is too low and Triglcerides are too high. This has been an ongoing problem. My carbohydrate obsession is probably the cause.
>
> NOTE: I took this blood test while on Parnate, which may explain some of the abnormal results.
>
> I recently tried a small amount of magnesium citrate. I noticed an immediate improvement in concentration and muscle ache. However, it "may" be making me more depressed and more confused.
>
> Right now, I am off all drugs. The only thing I take is Ativan (1 mg) which I have taken for about a year and a half. (It doesn't really work anymore but I feel like crap if I don't take it.) I am depressed and irritable and anxious and have cognitive and memory problems. Other problems include muscle ache, apathy, confusion, poor memory, poor attention and the reduced ability to learn. My hair is dry and brittle and I look pale. The cognitive decline really concerns me.
>
> WHAT IS HAPPENING TO ME?Serotonin reuptake inhibition can result in
Low melatonin as serotonin won't be metabolised into melatonin. The result of this will be insomnia and high cortisol.
High serotonin will result in low dopamine. Low dopamine will cause high prolactin and low testosterone causing hypogoandism.
Low melatonin, low dopamine, low testosterone can excessive high cortisol, high adrenalin, akathsia resulting in insulin resistance and/or adrenal fatigue.
Low dopamine itself will cause low motivation, sexdrive, contration, apahy, focus, parkinsonism and much more.
SSRI's can cause low growth hormone negatively affecting all hormones, LH, FSH, Thyroid, testosterone, adrenal hormones. Young people in puberty given SSRI's will often not grow because of growth hormone defiency.
SSRI's can lower thyroid hormone production and efficiency directly and indirectly through high cortisol, low testosterone and low growth hormone.
Hormone defiency in thyroid, testostserone and growth hormone can all cause depression and other mental problems.
The SSRI's may have tipped the balance in wrong direction when it comes to hormones.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on July 31, 2009, at 19:22:05
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on July 27, 2009, at 10:43:19
>
> The SSRI's may have tipped the balance in wrong direction when it comes to hormones.hmm. does one not have to remain on SSRI's a long time for this to happen? i was only on each for like 8 weeks at a time, over the course of a year (i guess i tried about 5 in total), but i am experiencing most of what the original poster listed. i was trying to get my hormone levels checked, but my doc thinks i'm a hypochondriac, so now i'm having to see a naturopathic doctor and paying out my a** for tests that are normally subsidized by the health system
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 1, 2009, at 19:13:43
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by g_g_g_unit on July 31, 2009, at 19:22:05
> >
> > The SSRI's may have tipped the balance in wrong direction when it comes to hormones.
>
> hmm. does one not have to remain on SSRI's a long time for this to happen? i was only on each for like 8 weeks at a time, over the course of a year (i guess i tried about 5 in total), but i am experiencing most of what the original poster listed. i was trying to get my hormone levels checked, but my doc thinks i'm a hypochondriac, so now i'm having to see a naturopathic doctor and paying out my a** for tests that are normally subsidized by the health system
>Yeah tell me about it.
Posted by UgottaHaveHOPE on August 5, 2009, at 12:17:20
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on August 1, 2009, at 19:13:43
nm
Posted by metazoan on January 4, 2011, at 13:50:55
In reply to Re: Long Term SSRI Use Has Destabilzed Me, posted by NewQuestions on February 5, 2009, at 17:08:08
Very nice post. I've kept a similar journal and ... I started with medication (SSRIs) in the beginning of the summer 1995. I'm currently struggling with trying to determine if my side efffects are psychosomatic (where my relationship with medication is the primary determinant for side effects) or due to the medication.
Initially, for treatment of OCD, panic disorder, and depression, I accepted Zoloft (100mg) and engaged in therapy and spiritual (Zen, A Course in Miracles) mind training and did very well: I sky-rocketed in my career (software engineer), met my future wife, etc. When I let the non-medication tools go, I started to worry about medication because obsession over cognitive functioning has always been an OCD form of mine. I read anti-medication books and articles from well-credentialled and well-educated doctors and ... began to develop a very negative perception of medication. I then weaned myself off Zoloft and ... have had a negative relationship with medication since. I've tried (half-heartedly and, in many cases, not fully-compliant) various protocols (both mind-body/breath practices and nutrients/supplements) that have clinical research backing up their efficacy for panic disorder, depression, and OCD and ... came up short. I then tried different medications (SSRIs and SNRIs) and ... ultimately experienced horrible 'side effects' on all of them. However, when I was experiencing what seemed like very bad cognitive effects on a second trial of Zoloft, I was able to do very difficult computer graphing algorithms and I was lightning-fast in development of difficult algorithms and various complexities with software development. But ... I ultimately went off it to see if other meds were better in terms of my other side effects. I tried to ramp up on Lexapro a few times. Each time, I would experience horrible cognitive side effects at even really low doses such as 2.5 mg. When the panic disorder became too difficult for me, I took sick leave from work (work is one of my major triggers) and ... ramped up to 20 mg in a short time period without any side effects (!). Because I had previously been unable to even tolerate 2.5 mg, I thought that the side effects were largely due to my mind -- and I remember a research psychologist telling me a story about a patient in a double-blind/placebo-control study that had a horrible reaction to medication (nasty side effects) and it ultimately turned out that she was on the placebo. Despite these 'realizations', when I went back to work, I started to feel the cognitive issues and ... didn't think they were psychosomatic but, instead, related to the medication (15mg Lexapro). I'm now at a point where I don't know what to do -- were it not for the panic disorder, I would try to use the non-medication protocols (including exercise, diet, daily mindfulness, and some of the clinically-backed vitaming and herbal agents). The panic disorder, however, is very disabling so .... I stay on it.
BTW, I've been on/off SSRIs for 15 years and ... I've never experienced long-term issues with them. Any side effects - whether psychosomatic or due to the med - went away after I stopped take the med ... note that you also have to wean off slowly and allow for receptor adjustment to avoid wrongly concluding that discontinuation symptoms are permanent effects of medication intake. Of course, this is my experience and ... your mileage may vary :).
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