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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2009, at 12:29:33
There is no study here. Just info that was given to me that endogenous depression is on the cutting edge as science is finding that lack of endorphins cause it. Anything but opiods that can help it? I can't excercise more than I am due to bad discs? Phillipa
Posted by raisinb on January 24, 2009, at 14:28:12
In reply to Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2009, at 12:29:33
Well, I have had periods of serious distance running in my life--15+ miles at a time, 60+ miles in a week--and I don't know that I've ever experienced a "runner's high." Makes me mad! Where are my endorphins?
My depression can definitely be described as the classic endogenous kind.
Posted by bleauberry on January 24, 2009, at 17:08:50
In reply to Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2009, at 12:29:33
You can take low dose (1.5mg to 4.5mg) Naltrexone between 9pm and 12pm each night to increase endorphins. The drug temporarily tricks the opioid receptors into thinking there isn't enough endorphins, so for a few hours it pumps out a bunch of new ones which last about a day and this accumulates over days and weeks.
DL-phenylalanine can also work by preventing the breakdown of existing endorphins. Or just pure D-Phenylalanine, but it is expensive.
But we both know this isn't your problem so I'm not sure why you were surfing upon it. You should be out there researching docs Phillipa! :-) Come on already. :-)
Actually, low dose naltrexone has been said to help Lyme sufferers because it beefs up and resets the immune system.
Posted by bulldog2 on January 24, 2009, at 18:05:20
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by bleauberry on January 24, 2009, at 17:08:50
> You can take low dose (1.5mg to 4.5mg) Naltrexone between 9pm and 12pm each night to increase endorphins. The drug temporarily tricks the opioid receptors into thinking there isn't enough endorphins, so for a few hours it pumps out a bunch of new ones which last about a day and this accumulates over days and weeks.
>
> DL-phenylalanine can also work by preventing the breakdown of existing endorphins. Or just pure D-Phenylalanine, but it is expensive.
>
> But we both know this isn't your problem so I'm not sure why you were surfing upon it. You should be out there researching docs Phillipa! :-) Come on already. :-)
>
> Actually, low dose naltrexone has been said to help Lyme sufferers because it beefs up and resets the immune system.Chronic lyme's has no cure...when active my doc said you will have fever and swollen lymph nodes..all you can do is run antibiotics...but the bacteria will just go into hiding...also even if chronic it's not active all the time..
If one has depression with lyme's they still prescribe antidpressants...
You ask people here what to do..You need to find docs that will address thyroid and lyme's..You need to pursue docs that will address what you think you have and treat it..
You posted countless times about lyme's and your thyroid...These are questions for a doctor...
Also there are forums for lyme's and thyroid where people might give you better info
'
This board is best suited for questions about psychotropic meds which you have stated you are not interested in..It seems like you looking in the wrong place for lyme's disease and thyroid disease...The first step to get better is to find people who are suited to answer you questions...you need to be in the right place...
While riding your bike is admirable it will not cure lyme's or your thyroid place..Also sometimes when one is low in endorphins exercise may deplete them more and make you feel worse..
Posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2009, at 20:31:10
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by bulldog2 on January 24, 2009, at 18:05:20
I feel admin should be the judge of where I do or do not post??? Blueberry is right. Phillipa ps a lot of us have different views. And Where Have I expressed that I do not take conventional meds? I remember when we were on the same med. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2009, at 20:35:24
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by bleauberry on January 24, 2009, at 17:08:50
BB currently corresponding with a person on LDN. Didn't know about the timing. Must inform person also. Thanks. So far just that one LLMD around here???? Love Phillipa ps also endo said excercise daily for stabalizing thyroid. How do you feel about this?
Posted by Sigismund on January 25, 2009, at 0:41:24
In reply to Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2009, at 12:29:33
People in opiate withdrawal are of course seriously depressed.
You try to work (or to find) the toaster.
Something goes wrong and it doesn't work.
You sink to the floor.
(How dramatic, but true.)
Posted by SLS on January 25, 2009, at 6:48:15
In reply to Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2009, at 12:29:33
I am usually skeptical when there is a report of a newly discovered cause for depression - especially when the explanation involves a single substance without discussing brain circuits. I am more likely to pay attention to a conclusion that something has been found to be associated with depression, even though a causal relationship has not been established. Either way, I am interested to know more about this association.
- Scott
Posted by Garnet71 on January 25, 2009, at 7:32:52
In reply to Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2009, at 12:29:33
I've thought of this (aside from the science perspective) but mistakenly referred to dopamine when I mean endorphines. I'm not into the technical terms, and don't care to learn them right now.
I too feel a lack of endorphines. Yes, Phillipa, exercise is the best. Could you do the eliptical or exercise bike with your back problems? Swimming? The problem for other people is that they cannot get the energy to exercise because of the depresion. I've been there so many times. I'm back to exercising again.Sex makes me feel like I have endorphines in my brain. In fact, I stayed in a bad relationship - emotionally abusive - partly because the sex was so good and frequent (he had a very high sex drive). I think I was addicted to this person. I felt high around him, especially during sex. It is a physical feeling of euphoria in my brain. It has taken me so much to stay away from him. Every time I tell him to get lost, he slowly crept his way back into my life. I believe he was a narcissist and was very charming, sensual, and pretend sweet, and used sex to manipulate me. Enough already.
Food - like comfort foods and sweets and carbs make me feel like there are endorphines in my brain.
Rollercoasters, going fast in a plane, turbulence, little thrills - same thing.
Money - same thing. If I get to spend money on nice things, which is very rare, I feel 'happy'.
I used to feel endorphines when I listened to music. That joy has gone, but since I quit taking antidepressants,I noticed I am liking music again,but not as much as I used to.
It sounds pathetic, but really, I can feel a euphoria in my brain from these things. IT's a physical feeling that generates "happiness". I am assuming it is endorphines that cause the euphoric feeling - but I really don't know. I do know my body though, am very self aware.
Maybe this is behind addictive personalities. I don't know. I'm not addicted to drugs or alcohol gambling or sex - but I could easily become an alcholic - my father was one - I stay away. Or a compulsive gambler - I don't have money to gamble so again I stay away. I quit smoking. I do compulsive eating now - it used to be the only thing t stop the anxiety (when doctors wouldnt prescribe the apprpriate meds) - and now it seems to be a permanent problem.
I know true joy comes from within - but why these little highs? Does this mean I have an addictive personality, or do I lack endorphines in my brain? Don't normal people feel eurphoric at times?
Posted by Garnet71 on January 25, 2009, at 7:36:36
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by bleauberry on January 24, 2009, at 17:08:50
> You can take low dose (1.5mg to 4.5mg) Naltrexone between 9pm and 12pm each night to increase endorphins. The drug temporarily tricks the opioid receptors into thinking there isn't enough endorphins, so for a few hours it pumps out a bunch of new ones which last about a day and this accumulates over days and weeks.
>
> DL-phenylalanine can also work by preventing the breakdown of existing endorphins. Or just pure D-Phenylalanine, but it is expensive.
>
> But we both know this isn't your problem so I'm not sure why you were surfing upon it. You should be out there researching docs Phillipa! :-) Come on already. :-)
>
> Actually, low dose naltrexone has been said to help Lyme sufferers because it beefs up and resets the immune system.-------------------------------
Bleauberry - do you know more about his drug? I read up on it on Wiki...and about how it was used for drug addiction recovery - but I didn't find a good site. Do you know about its side effects?This is the first drug I'v been interested in for a long time now. I think I want to try it - how do pdocs feel about prescribing this (in general)?
The PDoc I am going back to in 2 weeks has always frowned upon alternative meds like when I brought up St. Johns Wort...and this is a pharmaceutical so maybe he will be more receptive..but this is an alternative use.. Thanks
Posted by bulldog2 on January 25, 2009, at 8:38:45
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins » bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2009, at 20:31:10
> I feel admin should be the judge of where I do or do not post??? Blueberry is right. Phillipa ps a lot of us have different views. And Where Have I expressed that I do not take conventional meds? I remember when we were on the same med. Love Phillipa
You have the right to post whereever you want but my point is you might be looking in the wrong place for lyme's disease and thyroid. You have stated recently that you do not wish to try new meds any more and mess with your brain.
Posted by desolationrower on January 25, 2009, at 11:25:38
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by bulldog2 on January 25, 2009, at 8:38:45
Ashwagandha increases opioid receptor sensitivity. however i think it also does something with thyroid.
i think there are others, can't remember them right now though.
-d/r
Posted by Phillipa on January 25, 2009, at 12:47:20
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins » Phillipa, posted by Garnet71 on January 25, 2009, at 7:32:52
I know what you mean and I sure think normal people feel these little highs for me used to be often not anymore they used to hold me for a few days. I do ride my bike six miles shire force to do it but am always glad afterwards like getting in the car and going out and accomplishing something . Only thing doesn't last. Am now going to take care of that matter and thanks by the way Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 25, 2009, at 13:01:25
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by bulldog2 on January 25, 2009, at 8:38:45
I don't remember posting that openly on the board could you point me to the link much appreciated. Phillipa Anyway still looking and trying different things.
Posted by Phillipa on January 25, 2009, at 19:45:45
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins » bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on January 25, 2009, at 13:01:25
I have to wonder if no taste or spell is interfering with plesure centers as a passion of mine was reading and eating chips and salsa no more what's the point? Think I will google for a list of endorphins and post it. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 25, 2009, at 20:05:08
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by Phillipa on January 25, 2009, at 19:45:45
Well I'll be darned!!!! Phillipa
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=55001
Posted by Garnet71 on January 25, 2009, at 22:41:50
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by Phillipa on January 25, 2009, at 20:05:08
I read that article and found several more...Now I know for sure I am not crazy. Guess what foods I have made just this week - Indian and Mexican food..Guess what I made a special trip to the store to buy just 3 days ago - you guessed it - Mexican chocolate (with Capscian and 80% Coaco-the high endorphine foods so the articles say). I have been craving these foods for years, and it's getting out of hand. But I only discovered Mexican chocolate last summer - and have frequently bought it ever since. I also crave orgasms -more than what is normal - as embarassed as I am to say.
I've felt for quite some time there is something wrong with the endorphines in my brain - I just haven't found the words to describe it
I seriously don't know how much more of this I can take. I have an appointment with pdoc in 2 weeks - I am fearing they will listen to me for a whole 2 minutes, then get out their prescription pad for Zoloft - Effoxor, or Prozac as usual. I can't take it anymore. And with that, I want to f*ing die. Not in a suicidal sense - I just cant take the torture anymore and it seems as if that is the only way it will end.
Posted by Phillipa on January 26, 2009, at 0:47:31
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins » Phillipa, posted by Garnet71 on January 25, 2009, at 22:41:50
Lindtt dark chocolate my vice. Love Phillipa
Posted by mav27 on January 26, 2009, at 2:46:12
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins » Garnet71, posted by Phillipa on January 26, 2009, at 0:47:31
yukky.. i hate dark chocolate :)
I have survived the last 8 years on chocolate and pepsi.. i would have about 1 to 1 1/2 large 250gram blocks a day plus a few cans of pepsi.. now at 28 years old im paying for it teeth that arn't happy with me plus other health problems. I've given up both for the last 2 years and have tried to be treated again with medication but nothing is working like good ol' chocolate did :(
Posted by Phillipa on January 26, 2009, at 20:17:27
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins » Phillipa, posted by mav27 on January 26, 2009, at 2:46:12
Mav you serious? Since lost taste and smell five years ago at least a bit of taste from dark chocolate. Love Phillipa
Posted by 4WD on January 27, 2009, at 0:20:01
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins » mav27, posted by Phillipa on January 26, 2009, at 20:17:27
Hi everyone,
I haven't posted for a while but the reason Phillipa is asking about it is because she and I have been emailing about it. My doctor (not my pdoc, my family doctor) has diagnosed me as having genetic or endogenous endorphin deficiency. I have just begun seeing an addictions specialist because I have been using opiods to get the endorphins to kick in and can't get off them because the withdrawal is so horrible - I fall into total, suicidal despair and because on opiates I feel energetic, motivated and happy. My depression goes away, my anxiety is cut by 9/10s and I generally feel like a normal person when I take Percocet. Trouble is, tolerance and my usage is getting out of hand.
The new doctor I am seeing will be treating me with Subutex or Suboxone. Which is better?
I definitely am a substance abuser - have been self medicating with narcotics off and on for years. Had three years of total abstinence March 05 through June 08 when I broke my back and had to be exposed to narcotics again. As soon as I started taking them, I felt normal again (depression persisted the whole time I was clean). So for the first couple of weeks after starting on Percocet I was able to take it as prescribed but then the whole craving/obsession thing was reawakened and I've been battling with it ever since.
The new doctor I am seeing held a seminar last week. I attended and he was talking about endorphins. I raised my hand and told him my doctor had diagnosed me with genetic endorphin deficiency. He told the class that my doctor was a very wise man who kept up with the literature because endogenous endorphin deficiency was on the cutting edge of neuroscience right now.
I truly believe that is what is wrong with me and been wrong with me all my life. I was put on ADs at age 13. The only times I've felt normal and whole was when I first started Geodon (lasted about 6 months then pooped out) and when I first started Nardil - got some mild hypomania for a few weeks, then went away and depression started returning. I was dealing with it the best I could then I broke my back and voila! problem solved. I had an excuse to take pain meds and my life and enjoyment of it returned to normal immediately. Unfortunately my abuse returned as well. Well, it's not really abuse, I guess, it's self medicating and needing more than originally prescribed because of tolerance issue.
I start the Subutex therapy on Thursday or Friday. Will post again and let you all know how it goes and if the doctor I am seeing for the subutex therapy has more to say about endorphin deficiency.
Marsha
Posted by mav27 on January 27, 2009, at 0:57:21
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins, posted by 4WD on January 27, 2009, at 0:20:01
Was there any specific tests done such as blood tests ect for your doc to come to the conclusion he did or is it just something that needs to be diagnosed based off symptoms ect?
Posted by Phillipa on January 27, 2009, at 12:13:39
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins » 4WD, posted by mav27 on January 27, 2009, at 0:57:21
Mav maybe history and behavior based. 4wheel drive will be back to report. She's a wonderful caring person. Phillipa
Posted by 4WD on January 28, 2009, at 0:09:09
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins » 4WD, posted by mav27 on January 27, 2009, at 0:57:21
> Was there any specific tests done such as blood tests ect for your doc to come to the conclusion he did or is it just something that needs to be diagnosed based off symptoms ect?
My pdoc referred me to this doctor because I have been taking lots of opiates for the past few months. Everytime I try to quit, I can't get past the withdrawal stage because I get so severely depressed. So the buprenorphine is being prescribed to get me off the Percocet. Percocet has been giving me the endorphins I need to stay functional but my tolerance keeps increasing and I am tired of the cycle of dependence and all the issues involved with abusing, yes, abusing opiates. I have been taking more than I need to stay out of depression. My hope is that the buprenorphine will allow me to get through withdrawal and off the pain meds and hopefully have the benefit of treating my treatment resistant depression and natual lack of endorphins.
I start the medication on Friday. Until then I will stay on the Percocet. This program involves a lot more than just getting a prescription once a month. I will have to drive an hour every M, W and F to attend a three hour group session 9am-12. This will go on for 6-8weeks. It's basically an outpatient rehab.
Marsha
Posted by SLS on January 28, 2009, at 7:57:32
In reply to Re: Endogenous Depression Caused By Lack Of Endorphins » mav27, posted by 4WD on January 28, 2009, at 0:09:09
Hi Marsha.
Gosh, it has been such a long, hard road for you. I am glad you finally found an answer.
I can't comment on the desirability of taking straight buprenorphine (Subutex) versus the mixture of buprenorphine and naloxone (Suboxone). I just don't know. If cravings are an issue for you, perhaps the Suboxone will be considered first.
- Scott
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