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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by blueboy on August 25, 2007, at 15:33:11
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by jhj on August 25, 2007, at 2:09:13
> I believe these choices should be considered before ECT or suicide despite the legal issues involved.
>
> Hi Existentialist,
>
> do you mean that if your suggested choices fail,then suicide should be cosidered?Dude! He didn't say that. He said that anything is better than ECT or suicide, including something illegal and/or as way-out as "LSD therapy".
I'm old and I came along in the recreational drug era, so I pretty much tried everything and watched a lot of other people, too. My personal thought is that LSD is not so great for you in the long run. I met Timothy Leary in 1988 and the guy seemed like a total zombie.
I'd personally try ECT before I'd become a long-term user of an hallucinogen -- mostly, I think it's more likely to be effective against depression -- but they are both pretty scary.
Posted by rskontos on August 25, 2007, at 16:00:26
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by blueboy on August 25, 2007, at 15:33:11
HI guys, i have by no means tried everything but I can related to the depression issues. I am having a tough day today and I am not taking anything due to just coming off cymbalta and it was pure hel_ getting off and I refused to try anything else at the present. I dissassociate for the most part and that keeps my panic attacks and depression at bay but not today. Today isn't good and I am feeling all alone. Actually I am all alone except for my dogs and today it sucks. Can I say that. I am new to this site so if I can't I am sorry mr. moderator. but today I must ask for forgivness. I have had a troubling past and for the most part dissassociated to get through it (my therapists' words) I had migraines and have had some prescription drugs for it it is a wonder I am not hooked to pain killers because of it. But migraines are funny things and in my case they probably helped me not get hooked but now the pain killers do nothing even when I need them to. I had thoughts of suicide on cymbalta, didn't go off of it when I did, nor did I act on it. I still have them sometimes. I don't act on it. I think that these thoughts are the nature of the beast of depression. JMHO. I would never act upon them and I hope if it gets to bad I will call someone. Today I decide to write to this board. I am sorry for all of you like myself that deal with this hidden illness. The nature of it allows us to hide it and that doesn't help it to be understood by those that don't suffer through it nor does it help us get help. Double edge sword. I understand the desire to have something like cancer a curable one of course as that would allow those around to understand without you needing to explain it. It is hard to understand the nature of depression or panic attacks. It is more than the mental aspects, it is the physical nature of it too that is hard to expain. As I think about it, I recall trying to explain it to my husband who wants me to get well with therapy and move on. As if it were that simple. As if I can control it. I have been in therapy for three months and according to him I should be well and cured. I hate to tell him I might never be cured it might only be managed. Today I can't manage it. Yesterday I was great, I was working and doing well today not so good. I am sorry this is a short novel. Thanks for listening. Rk
Posted by rskontos on August 25, 2007, at 16:01:29
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by rskontos on August 25, 2007, at 16:00:26
Sorry if my post sounds like I am rambling, but that is how my thoughts are projecting in my head today. Bear with me today. I am truly messed up right now.
Posted by jhj on August 26, 2007, at 0:37:40
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by Existentialist on August 25, 2007, at 13:27:05
Hi existentialist,
I have tried this what you are calling "social immersion" before a long time.I am 29 now and i have social phobia since childhood.It would have been great if by interecting with people and changing life style one can get rid of social phobia.My social anxiety is so acute that i can not even talk to my family members without fear except my mom.If after taking more then 20 drugs of different classes,there is not even a minor improvement then how social immersion is going to solve the problem.I am waiting for the arrival of better drugs in future.Thanks
Posted by jhj on August 26, 2007, at 0:44:19
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by rskontos on August 25, 2007, at 16:01:29
Hi dear rskontos,
i do not think it is rambling.if it is rambling,then i have done it many time so far.All the best.
Posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:28:09
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by Existentialist on August 24, 2007, at 22:24:27
> The one book talks about a variety of researchers and their experiences in the field doing work with LSD, it's called "Higher Wisdom: Eminent Elders Explore the Continuing Impact of Psychedelics ". One psychatrist talks about his own experience and how hard headed he was having been through 12 years of med school and how it changed him.
> Another great book but specifically about LSD is called "The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience". Even reading these without doing the drugs might be helpful. Another great book is called "The primal wound" It has nothing to do with drugs but advocates methods to 'unlock' people who have detatched and shutdown as it sounds you have.When you say "you" (last sentence), are you talking to me, or someone else in this thread?
Posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:40:46
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by Existentialist on August 25, 2007, at 13:27:05
>
> Also I think before you look at those drugs there is a lot to be done as far as understanding ourselves and our lives and the root causes of human distrubance. I think it's a result of personal and social development, and general lack of sanity modern life can have. It's a repressive way of life we live and control games and psychological defense mechanisms are abundant.
>
> Healthy lifestyle and diet and exclusion of other biological illness. Perhaps visit a bhuddist monestary and live there for a year and see if your perspective changes. Some sort of massive lifestyle overhaul and self help where you try and rebuild yourself, think about why you have the emotions you do, and work to develop new emotional and cognitive patterns.From what you are saying, you make it sound that mental illness is purely environmental. Sorry, wrong. While I have suffered a great deal from my sick "family", I KNOW at least 75% of my problems are biological. This is to say, no book, therapy, diet, breathing excercises, faith, or any other such "stuff" is going to even make a dent in the chemical imbalance that exists in my brain.
I'm not even going to argue the point. I'm so sick of having this discussion with people.
Pure and simple: Some people are depressed because of various life events and trauma, others are depressed because the chemicals in their brain are DO NOT FUNCTION CORRECTLY, and others, a combo of both.
I get furious when people try to tell me to go hug a tree, and all my problems will go away. Enough already. Chemical Imbalance is as real as CANCER.
Posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:42:46
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by jhj on August 26, 2007, at 0:37:40
>
> Hi existentialist,
> I have tried this what you are calling "social immersion" before a long time.I am 29 now and i have social phobia since childhood.It would have been great if by interecting with people and changing life style one can get rid of social phobia.My social anxiety is so acute that i can not even talk to my family members without fear except my mom.If after taking more then 20 drugs of different classes,there is not even a minor improvement then how social immersion is going to solve the problem.I am waiting for the arrival of better drugs in future.ThanksAmen. I'm in the same boat, different disorder. I'm waiting for new meds to fix my broken brain.
Posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2007, at 18:58:06
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:42:46
Enigma I have a friend who has done the ECT, Parnate, Nardil and now .25 of requip has made him well. Seriously. Phillipa
Posted by blueboy on August 27, 2007, at 14:02:27
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » Enigma, posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2007, at 18:58:06
You know, I'm currently off meds in general, and I notice some help from Requip also. I'll take it at night for Restless Leg as needed. I've noticed that very often, the next day after I take it, I feel some or even a lot of relief from depression.
My working theory is that sound sleep helps store up whatever neurotransmitter I'm lacking while suppressing whatever it is that causes RLS, and that Requip helps me sleep better. Another theory is that my body overreacts to whatever causes RLS and Requip is better targeted.
Both theories could be just completely wrong, of course. There are a lot of "post hoc ergo prompter hoc" problems with medication and depression.
BTW I have been put on at least 15 anti-depressant drugs. The only one that worked and that I could tolerate at all was Nardil (the only MAOI I've tried). The SSRI's give me like RLS in my entire body. I had seizures from a couple of them -- very scary, very unpleasant.
> Enigma I have a friend who has done the ECT, Parnate, Nardil and now .25 of requip has made him well. Seriously. Phillipa
Posted by rskontos on August 27, 2007, at 19:25:38
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:40:46
Engima, I agree with you on that. I think that there is a huge number of people that depression is a chemical imbalance that is specific to them and that is why so many drugs that might help someone else doesn't help say you or others. Don't let people get to you. It is the most misunderstood disorder. I myself would not have understood it until this year. I have always had panic attacks and depression but not the severe kind until my panic attacks took over and my manner of dealing with them failed me. My therapist says I dissassocate and it has worked until June of 2006. My world unraveled. The depression that set in with the panic attacks left me in a dark place. It was the mental and the physical aspect I couldn't explain to my family. I am so sorry for your pain and if you have experienced for a long time.........well I understand why you are angry at those that tell you go hug an tree or live better and you will be healed. Because we are all so individual and brains are individual, your healing process whatever it is will be uniquely yours. I hope for your sake you find it. I hope you find support along the way too. RK
Posted by jhj on August 28, 2007, at 1:51:26
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:40:46
Chemical Imbalance is as real as CANCER.
There is no doubt about it.Environmental factor might be playing part in worsening it.But,The cause is definely biologica.Even those,who become depressed after some traumatic life event are prone to depression by birth due to faulty genes.Traumatic event just triggers it.
Posted by jhj on August 28, 2007, at 1:58:31
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:28:09
You can think about psychedelic drugs and even take the drugs actually because as per my information your country does not give any punishment to those who actually do the drugs.Am i right? Is there any punishment in your country for those who are found taking psychedelic drugs?
Posted by existentialist on August 28, 2007, at 12:28:59
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by jhj on August 28, 2007, at 1:58:31
I live in the USA. In the USA they are illegal. Mostly. In California, cannabis is nearly legal anyway, but it is quasi-legal for any purpose for which it medically helps. Insomnia, depression, mensteral pain, ADHD, Bipolar. In Amsterdam you can purchase magic mushrooms and Ayahuasca in shops know as smart shops.
As far as depression being as biologically real as cancer. I guess I can't speak on it. I've been diagnosed with depression, bipolar, and now ADD. Personally I don't think anything is biologically wrong or has ever been with me. There's always been so many factors involved. Various psychic pain and tramas that have never been resolved in me.
My experience with marijuana was one where it felt healing to me core. Like it was waking up my desire to live and be alive, breaking down personal barriers to experiencing deeper parts of myself. It felt childlike, like I remember feeling ok in the world like I did as a young child. It was the sense that my whole life I've lived focused ont he wrong things, affraid to really come alive. So I think there is absolutely theraputic potential there to heal.
Posted by linkadge on August 28, 2007, at 19:50:10
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by jhj on August 28, 2007, at 1:51:26
>Chemical Imbalance is as real as CANCER.
Hard to say. There is no conclusive evidence of any one chemical imballence in depression. What might be imballenced for one person is not necessarily imballenced for the other.
>There is no doubt about it.Environmental factor >might be playing part in worsening it.But,The >cause is definely biologica.
Again, it may depend on the person. If you take a rat and stress it enough, it will develop symtoms identical to human major depression. Ie it will stop sleeping, eating, engaging in hedonic activities, psychomotor retardation, you name it.
Again, these are no special mice. They are not selected for any particular genetic flaw. Just run of the mill mice that react the way other mice do to stress.
Now thats not to say that some people may react more severly to stress, or perhaps have genetic problems that render them depressed in the absence of environmental factors, but to say that all depression is biological simply cannot be prooven.
>Even those,who
>become depressed after some traumatic life event >are prone to depression by birth due to faulty >genes.Traumatic event just triggers it.Again, that statement cannot be proven. There are theories that may support that view. Some genetic research suggests that certain genes may make one more susceptable to a mental illness after stressfull life events, but these studies only show trends, they are not conclusive, and there are plenty of people who do not fit any one given model.
So, I would argue that to say that all depression is 100% biological is not a provable statement.
Linkadge
Posted by Enigma on August 28, 2007, at 20:41:33
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » jhj, posted by linkadge on August 28, 2007, at 19:50:10
Out of all the people on this site, linkadge, I didn't think even you could be so ignorant.
Posted by Phillipa on August 28, 2007, at 21:44:32
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » jhj, posted by linkadge on August 28, 2007, at 19:50:10
My anxiety and depression if I even have it may just be boredom but it was caused the anxiety diagnosed as PTSD due to the childhood issues of a Mother on a new med cortisone they knew nothing about as new at the time and she got addisons disease and the horrible mental side effects it can cause. She died when I was l7. So I do not believe my anxiety is genetic just life circumstances affected me negatively and created intense fear in me. After that I grew myself up as I had to take care of myself. So different circumstances can also contribute to anxiety/depression in my own circumastances. Can only speak for me. Phillipa
Posted by Optimist on August 28, 2007, at 22:39:54
In reply to Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by Enigma on August 11, 2007, at 11:35:41
Have you considered hormone replacement therapy? Testosterone, cortisol, T3/T4, dhea, pregnenolone, estrogen, progesterone, etc...
If your hormones are out of wack, antidepressants aren't going to be very helpful.
Posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:29:57
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » jhj, posted by linkadge on August 28, 2007, at 19:50:10
Hi Linkadge,I have social anxiety,GAD and depression since childhood.And i do not recall any traumatic or stressful event taking place in my life till yet.As far as animal models are concerned,they can not be taken seriously.I have seen thousand things being investigated and drugs found using mice and rats.But,It does not lead to anything in the end.You mean to say what happens to rats is more believable then my own case? If i had been normal in childhood,i would have easily said my childhood was as good as anyone.No stressfull events but still terrible mental problems.Can yot tell me what your animal model suggests in my case "conclusively"? Thanks.
Jatin
Posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:36:49
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by existentialist on August 28, 2007, at 12:28:59
Hi existentialist,In USA they are illegal.But do you get any "punishment" for taking illegal things except trivial ones like doing community service,kept on probation,sent to rehablilitation centre and at worst one month jail? I reside in India.Well if i am caught taking any of the drugs that you have mentioned,i will be sent to jail for six months,if i get caught second time then it will be for two years.And if i am found having these drugs in higher then certain quantity with me,then i am deemed drug peddlar and not consumer.In that case,i will have to spend time behind bar for cool 10 years.
Posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:42:29
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by Enigma on August 28, 2007, at 20:41:33
Well,I would not like to use the word "ignorant" simply because somebody is having different views then us.i support linkadge's rights of having own views on the issue.
Posted by Enigma on August 29, 2007, at 9:26:52
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:42:29
These took me all of 5 minutes to find on the web:
http://www.depression.com/causes_of_depression.html
Causes of DepressionDepression has no single cause; often, it results from a combination of things. You may have no idea why depression has struck you.
Whatever its cause, depression is not just a state of mind. It is related to physical changes in the brain, and connected to an imbalance of a type of chemical that carries signals in your brain and nerves. These chemicals are called neurotransmitters.
---
www.bipolar.com
Scientists don’t really know what causes bipolar disorder, sometimes called manic depression. They do think that family history plays a role. Most people with bipolar disorder have a relative with the same condition or with some other mood disorder.
But family history alone does not cause someone to have bipolar disorder. We don’t yet know what those other things are.
This is what we DO know about bipolar disorder:* Bipolar disorder most often starts in teenagers and young adults. But it also can occur in children and older adults.
* Bipolar disorder equally affects people of all races and backgrounds.
* Special chemicals in the brain may be involved. If the levels of these chemicals are out of balance, it may be harder for brain cells to work as they should.
* Bipolar disorder also could be connected to hormone levels. Hormones are chemicals in the body that do certain things. Experts have noticed a link between thyroid hormone levels and bipolar disorder.
* Also, certain parts of the brain may have a different size or shape in people with bipolar disorder. The changes could be a cause or symptom of the illness.
* In some cases, other illnesses may play a role in bipolar disorder.Myth: Once bipolar disorder is controlled, people can stop their medicine.
Fact: Treatment of bipolar disorder is usually lifelong. Unless a healthcare provider says it’s okay, people shouldn’t stop medicine just because they are feeling better. Medicine can continue to keep the condition controlled.Myth: Bipolar symptoms are always triggered by some event.
Fact: Symptoms of bipolar disorder are often triggered by a stressful event, but not always. Sometimes mood swings happen without any obvious triggers.Bipolar disorder medicines may be used alone or with others. Some medicines may take time to start working. Types of bipolar disorder medicines include:
* Mood stabilizers. These may delay or relieve episodes of mania (highs) or depression (lows). They can help people go longer between mood episodes.
* Antidepressants. These are often used with a mood stabilizer in people with depressive episodes. If used alone, antidepressants may increase the chances of a person with bipolar disorder switching into mania.
* Antipsychotics. These are medicines that are mostly used to treat mania. They may also be used to treat psychosis that can occur during severe episodes of mania or depression. Patients with severe anxiety or agitation may also receive antipsychotics. Antipsychotics may be used alone or with other medicines for treating bipolar disorder.
* Other medicines might be suggested by the healthcare provider when a person with bipolar disorder cannot sleep or feels nervous.
* Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is not a medicine. It is a medical treatment used to help people with severe mania or depression. It can also help people who do not do well with medicine.---
I did find 2 other sites that tried to say depression and such was NOT caused by chemical imbalances.. BUT, GUESS WHAT? They were SELLING SOMETHING. Yep, propaganda so they could sell their books and audio tape sets. The sites I listed aren't selling a thing.
I have bipolar disorder. Like it may or may not say above, it's LIFELONG illness. So, tree hugging, going to live with monks for a year, isn't going to cure me of anything.
Also, I can FEEL the chemical imbalance. Yes, try and tell me I can't. I know when I'm calm, and I know when suddenly, for no reason, severely angry, full of rage, and irritable, or depressed to a point where I can't do ANYTHING except lie in bed.
I was fine Sunday, and in bed Monday and Tuesday. I hope people talking about MY disorder actually SUFFER from my disorder before they spew their BS opinions about it. Having a different opinion is one thing. Having to listen to BS is another.I'm gonna go hug a tree now, and maybe do deep breathing exercises in the woods, and I'm sure that will clear me right up. Yeah, that's sarcasm.
Posted by rskontos on August 29, 2007, at 9:50:10
In reply to To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by Enigma on August 29, 2007, at 9:26:52
To the message that stated if you can't prove something then it isn't so, I believe it you look in you own life you will find many things you believe in that might or might not be provable that you believe in. For instance, you have been told the earth revolves around the sun and you have seen it on a telescope and through pictures but you have not actually seen it so it isn't provable by yourself yet you believe in its existence. Maybe this isn't the best example, all I am saying it many things exists in the world at this present time, and are hard to prove. Those things are known sometimes by a hypothesis that scientists use to prove but not not actually seen or felt but are accepted to truths. Maybe depression as a chemical imbalance is the same. Since all ads are accepted to treat them yet how they actual work is not known. So maybe we all not to agree not to agree.
Posted by rskontos on August 29, 2007, at 10:05:46
In reply to To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by Enigma on August 29, 2007, at 9:26:52
Why are people trying to blast someone's view that his depression is biological based versus chemical based. It is going back to the nature vs nuture argument. Aren't we here to support each other or to aruge our knowlege over someone's else's. I came to this board to find support but so far I see more debate over who knows more. Knowledge is good to share but not to hurt people who far as I know are already in a bad place for the most part. I know the day I came here I was in a dark place. I spoke up, which for me in the place it was hard, and all I received was challenges on my knowledge. Which has come from the internet and the various doctors I have in my life. I don't claim to know everything. I, too, used what knowledge I have gleemed from literature I have researched, I sort out the good, the bad, and the ugly, and then have to decided what applies. I try to share what I think is helpful and what has worked for me only to help someone else in the same dark place I struggle daily to live within. I hope one day to emerge victoriously but I realize I need help and I need help from others that share that walk. But here, I am not getting the sense we are all in this together for the same reasons. It seems some want to appear as the most knowledgable or maybe it helps thinking it is a chemical thing and drugs are the best, I don't know what the motivation is. I only know that it seems like an honest debate isn't going on. It seems Enigma stated his case, and everyone is arguing with him and down playing how he feels which is legit. I think I will move on, to a safer place where my feeling are considered above knowledge. Good luck to all.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 29, 2007, at 10:38:33
In reply to Re: To the people who don't believe in biological dep., posted by rskontos on August 29, 2007, at 10:05:46
I don't believe that "bashing" someone's belief system about their depression or other illness is likely to be helpful to them. However, if someone is taking a unilateral approach to treatment, i.e. either medical intervention or psychological or alternative, etc., AND if this approach is not working, it might be helpful to talk to them about other ways of thinking about depression and treatment. If someone is continuing to "do the same thing" even though it's not working and they expect different results, I think they are more likely to be disappointed. But trying a different approach, or adding a different approach is making a change that could lead to a different result. It's been shown in the literature that a combination of medical plus psychological interventions often is more effective in treating many types of depression than either one alone. (Sorry for general language and no cites...in a hurry here.)
So encouraging someone to think about cause and treatment from a different perspective, while respecting their beliefs, can be helpful and educational, imo. But that last part is crucial--respect.
gg, who hasn't read the whole thread, so if this is a redux of someone else's post, I apologize.
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