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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Existentialist on August 24, 2007, at 22:09:07
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything » jhj, posted by Phillipa on August 24, 2007, at 19:35:42
Most psych meds I've tried have been pretty gross feeling. When I was 16 (22 now) I had good results with paxil 10mg for 6 months in which I went from being quite depressed and introverted to having had 2 girlfriends, a first for me. It was a strange year where I was someone else on them. I never liked that fact. When I came off it, I was glad to just be myself again. I also used Effexor for a while at 37.5, both times they wanted me on higher doses which would have been intolerable to me. Do you think your doses have been too high?
As far as alternatives if it was the mid 60's you'd be a candicate for LSD psychotherapy as a means to bring about a spiritual and personal catharsis. The literature is filled with instances of people being cured by it. One instance reports a little girl who would only scream and was uncommunative and unresponsive to human contact, but thorugh a serries of sessions recovered.
People also report profound changes on the outlook of their life after MDMA which was used theraputically in the 80's.
And of course medical marijuana. I myself when I was 19 and tried it fo the first time experienced a sense of life and emotional and spiritual awakening, and feelings of joy I had not known possible or felt since I was perhaps a small boy. I've cried with joy from pot and the emotional release it had on me after feeling so dead inside for so long.I believe these choices should be considered before ECT or suicide despite the legal issues involved.
Posted by Existentialist on August 24, 2007, at 22:24:27
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by Existentialist on August 24, 2007, at 22:09:07
The one book talks about a variety of researchers and their experiences in the field doing work with LSD, it's called "Higher Wisdom: Eminent Elders Explore the Continuing Impact of Psychedelics ". One psychatrist talks about his own experience and how hard headed he was having been through 12 years of med school and how it changed him.
Another great book but specifically about LSD is called "The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience". Even reading these without doing the drugs might be helpful. Another great book is called "The primal wound" It has nothing to do with drugs but advocates methods to 'unlock' people who have detatched and shutdown as it sounds you have.
Posted by jhj on August 25, 2007, at 1:58:05
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything » jhj, posted by Phillipa on August 24, 2007, at 19:35:42
Hi Philipa,I do not feel differently.what you had suggested is absolutely correct.I wrote that in lighter vein.sorry,if you have misunderstood me.I am least interested in noting down email addresses of other people without their permission.I am always busy tackling anxiety and depression.No time for other things.
Posted by jhj on August 25, 2007, at 2:09:13
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by Existentialist on August 24, 2007, at 22:09:07
I believe these choices should be considered before ECT or suicide despite the legal issues involved.
Hi Existentialist,
do you mean that if your suggested choices fail,then suicide should be cosidered? Well let me say that suicide can never be the option even option of last report.I have problems of depression,social phobia and GAD for past 15 years with out any drugs giving me even iota of benefit.But,not once even i have thought about suicide.Research is always going on and companies are trying to develop new medicines with different mechanism.So,there is always a chance.I do not see why suicide should even be considered.
Posted by Existentialist on August 25, 2007, at 13:27:05
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by jhj on August 25, 2007, at 2:09:13
No, I didn't mean that suicide was a 'serious' option to consider, but I was trying to imply that before that level of desperation is reached, that psychadellic illegal drugs should be on the table. I'm not sure how controversial it is to talk about that here.
Also I think before you look at those drugs there is a lot to be done as far as understanding ourselves and our lives and the root causes of human distrubance. I think it's a result of personal and social development, and general lack of sanity modern life can have. It's a repressive way of life we live and control games and psychological defense mechanisms are abundant.
Healthy lifestyle and diet and exclusion of other biological illness. Perhaps visit a bhuddist monestary and live there for a year and see if your perspective changes. Some sort of massive lifestyle overhaul and self help where you try and rebuild yourself, think about why you have the emotions you do, and work to develop new emotional and cognitive patterns.
My life has had a lot of ups and downs, and for most of it I've felt quite off. Growing up in my family was totally screwed up, socially in school I was totally screwed up. I finally made it to college and things got screwed up there as well. It's all been a huge process of evolution. The danger is getting stuck in a reppressive lifestyle and mental and physical pattern (bad diet, lack of exercise) that you can't escape from.
jhj, Have you tried social immersion? I went from being quite poor and uncomfortable socially to be able to strike up conversations and being outgoing in about a year. I changed how I understood other people and learned new social skills I did not have before. I changed my lifestyle so I was not constantly avoiding social interaction. Through many interactions I found a personality and parts of myself I wanted to express back to them.
Posted by blueboy on August 25, 2007, at 15:33:11
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by jhj on August 25, 2007, at 2:09:13
> I believe these choices should be considered before ECT or suicide despite the legal issues involved.
>
> Hi Existentialist,
>
> do you mean that if your suggested choices fail,then suicide should be cosidered?Dude! He didn't say that. He said that anything is better than ECT or suicide, including something illegal and/or as way-out as "LSD therapy".
I'm old and I came along in the recreational drug era, so I pretty much tried everything and watched a lot of other people, too. My personal thought is that LSD is not so great for you in the long run. I met Timothy Leary in 1988 and the guy seemed like a total zombie.
I'd personally try ECT before I'd become a long-term user of an hallucinogen -- mostly, I think it's more likely to be effective against depression -- but they are both pretty scary.
Posted by rskontos on August 25, 2007, at 16:00:26
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by blueboy on August 25, 2007, at 15:33:11
HI guys, i have by no means tried everything but I can related to the depression issues. I am having a tough day today and I am not taking anything due to just coming off cymbalta and it was pure hel_ getting off and I refused to try anything else at the present. I dissassociate for the most part and that keeps my panic attacks and depression at bay but not today. Today isn't good and I am feeling all alone. Actually I am all alone except for my dogs and today it sucks. Can I say that. I am new to this site so if I can't I am sorry mr. moderator. but today I must ask for forgivness. I have had a troubling past and for the most part dissassociated to get through it (my therapists' words) I had migraines and have had some prescription drugs for it it is a wonder I am not hooked to pain killers because of it. But migraines are funny things and in my case they probably helped me not get hooked but now the pain killers do nothing even when I need them to. I had thoughts of suicide on cymbalta, didn't go off of it when I did, nor did I act on it. I still have them sometimes. I don't act on it. I think that these thoughts are the nature of the beast of depression. JMHO. I would never act upon them and I hope if it gets to bad I will call someone. Today I decide to write to this board. I am sorry for all of you like myself that deal with this hidden illness. The nature of it allows us to hide it and that doesn't help it to be understood by those that don't suffer through it nor does it help us get help. Double edge sword. I understand the desire to have something like cancer a curable one of course as that would allow those around to understand without you needing to explain it. It is hard to understand the nature of depression or panic attacks. It is more than the mental aspects, it is the physical nature of it too that is hard to expain. As I think about it, I recall trying to explain it to my husband who wants me to get well with therapy and move on. As if it were that simple. As if I can control it. I have been in therapy for three months and according to him I should be well and cured. I hate to tell him I might never be cured it might only be managed. Today I can't manage it. Yesterday I was great, I was working and doing well today not so good. I am sorry this is a short novel. Thanks for listening. Rk
Posted by rskontos on August 25, 2007, at 16:01:29
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by rskontos on August 25, 2007, at 16:00:26
Sorry if my post sounds like I am rambling, but that is how my thoughts are projecting in my head today. Bear with me today. I am truly messed up right now.
Posted by jhj on August 26, 2007, at 0:37:40
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by Existentialist on August 25, 2007, at 13:27:05
Hi existentialist,
I have tried this what you are calling "social immersion" before a long time.I am 29 now and i have social phobia since childhood.It would have been great if by interecting with people and changing life style one can get rid of social phobia.My social anxiety is so acute that i can not even talk to my family members without fear except my mom.If after taking more then 20 drugs of different classes,there is not even a minor improvement then how social immersion is going to solve the problem.I am waiting for the arrival of better drugs in future.Thanks
Posted by jhj on August 26, 2007, at 0:44:19
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by rskontos on August 25, 2007, at 16:01:29
Hi dear rskontos,
i do not think it is rambling.if it is rambling,then i have done it many time so far.All the best.
Posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:28:09
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by Existentialist on August 24, 2007, at 22:24:27
> The one book talks about a variety of researchers and their experiences in the field doing work with LSD, it's called "Higher Wisdom: Eminent Elders Explore the Continuing Impact of Psychedelics ". One psychatrist talks about his own experience and how hard headed he was having been through 12 years of med school and how it changed him.
> Another great book but specifically about LSD is called "The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience". Even reading these without doing the drugs might be helpful. Another great book is called "The primal wound" It has nothing to do with drugs but advocates methods to 'unlock' people who have detatched and shutdown as it sounds you have.When you say "you" (last sentence), are you talking to me, or someone else in this thread?
Posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:40:46
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by Existentialist on August 25, 2007, at 13:27:05
>
> Also I think before you look at those drugs there is a lot to be done as far as understanding ourselves and our lives and the root causes of human distrubance. I think it's a result of personal and social development, and general lack of sanity modern life can have. It's a repressive way of life we live and control games and psychological defense mechanisms are abundant.
>
> Healthy lifestyle and diet and exclusion of other biological illness. Perhaps visit a bhuddist monestary and live there for a year and see if your perspective changes. Some sort of massive lifestyle overhaul and self help where you try and rebuild yourself, think about why you have the emotions you do, and work to develop new emotional and cognitive patterns.From what you are saying, you make it sound that mental illness is purely environmental. Sorry, wrong. While I have suffered a great deal from my sick "family", I KNOW at least 75% of my problems are biological. This is to say, no book, therapy, diet, breathing excercises, faith, or any other such "stuff" is going to even make a dent in the chemical imbalance that exists in my brain.
I'm not even going to argue the point. I'm so sick of having this discussion with people.
Pure and simple: Some people are depressed because of various life events and trauma, others are depressed because the chemicals in their brain are DO NOT FUNCTION CORRECTLY, and others, a combo of both.
I get furious when people try to tell me to go hug a tree, and all my problems will go away. Enough already. Chemical Imbalance is as real as CANCER.
Posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:42:46
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by jhj on August 26, 2007, at 0:37:40
>
> Hi existentialist,
> I have tried this what you are calling "social immersion" before a long time.I am 29 now and i have social phobia since childhood.It would have been great if by interecting with people and changing life style one can get rid of social phobia.My social anxiety is so acute that i can not even talk to my family members without fear except my mom.If after taking more then 20 drugs of different classes,there is not even a minor improvement then how social immersion is going to solve the problem.I am waiting for the arrival of better drugs in future.ThanksAmen. I'm in the same boat, different disorder. I'm waiting for new meds to fix my broken brain.
Posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2007, at 18:58:06
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:42:46
Enigma I have a friend who has done the ECT, Parnate, Nardil and now .25 of requip has made him well. Seriously. Phillipa
Posted by blueboy on August 27, 2007, at 14:02:27
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » Enigma, posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2007, at 18:58:06
You know, I'm currently off meds in general, and I notice some help from Requip also. I'll take it at night for Restless Leg as needed. I've noticed that very often, the next day after I take it, I feel some or even a lot of relief from depression.
My working theory is that sound sleep helps store up whatever neurotransmitter I'm lacking while suppressing whatever it is that causes RLS, and that Requip helps me sleep better. Another theory is that my body overreacts to whatever causes RLS and Requip is better targeted.
Both theories could be just completely wrong, of course. There are a lot of "post hoc ergo prompter hoc" problems with medication and depression.
BTW I have been put on at least 15 anti-depressant drugs. The only one that worked and that I could tolerate at all was Nardil (the only MAOI I've tried). The SSRI's give me like RLS in my entire body. I had seizures from a couple of them -- very scary, very unpleasant.
> Enigma I have a friend who has done the ECT, Parnate, Nardil and now .25 of requip has made him well. Seriously. Phillipa
Posted by rskontos on August 27, 2007, at 19:25:38
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:40:46
Engima, I agree with you on that. I think that there is a huge number of people that depression is a chemical imbalance that is specific to them and that is why so many drugs that might help someone else doesn't help say you or others. Don't let people get to you. It is the most misunderstood disorder. I myself would not have understood it until this year. I have always had panic attacks and depression but not the severe kind until my panic attacks took over and my manner of dealing with them failed me. My therapist says I dissassocate and it has worked until June of 2006. My world unraveled. The depression that set in with the panic attacks left me in a dark place. It was the mental and the physical aspect I couldn't explain to my family. I am so sorry for your pain and if you have experienced for a long time.........well I understand why you are angry at those that tell you go hug an tree or live better and you will be healed. Because we are all so individual and brains are individual, your healing process whatever it is will be uniquely yours. I hope for your sake you find it. I hope you find support along the way too. RK
Posted by jhj on August 28, 2007, at 1:51:26
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:40:46
Chemical Imbalance is as real as CANCER.
There is no doubt about it.Environmental factor might be playing part in worsening it.But,The cause is definely biologica.Even those,who become depressed after some traumatic life event are prone to depression by birth due to faulty genes.Traumatic event just triggers it.
Posted by jhj on August 28, 2007, at 1:58:31
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by Enigma on August 26, 2007, at 11:28:09
You can think about psychedelic drugs and even take the drugs actually because as per my information your country does not give any punishment to those who actually do the drugs.Am i right? Is there any punishment in your country for those who are found taking psychedelic drugs?
Posted by existentialist on August 28, 2007, at 12:28:59
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by jhj on August 28, 2007, at 1:58:31
I live in the USA. In the USA they are illegal. Mostly. In California, cannabis is nearly legal anyway, but it is quasi-legal for any purpose for which it medically helps. Insomnia, depression, mensteral pain, ADHD, Bipolar. In Amsterdam you can purchase magic mushrooms and Ayahuasca in shops know as smart shops.
As far as depression being as biologically real as cancer. I guess I can't speak on it. I've been diagnosed with depression, bipolar, and now ADD. Personally I don't think anything is biologically wrong or has ever been with me. There's always been so many factors involved. Various psychic pain and tramas that have never been resolved in me.
My experience with marijuana was one where it felt healing to me core. Like it was waking up my desire to live and be alive, breaking down personal barriers to experiencing deeper parts of myself. It felt childlike, like I remember feeling ok in the world like I did as a young child. It was the sense that my whole life I've lived focused ont he wrong things, affraid to really come alive. So I think there is absolutely theraputic potential there to heal.
Posted by linkadge on August 28, 2007, at 19:50:10
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by jhj on August 28, 2007, at 1:51:26
>Chemical Imbalance is as real as CANCER.
Hard to say. There is no conclusive evidence of any one chemical imballence in depression. What might be imballenced for one person is not necessarily imballenced for the other.
>There is no doubt about it.Environmental factor >might be playing part in worsening it.But,The >cause is definely biologica.
Again, it may depend on the person. If you take a rat and stress it enough, it will develop symtoms identical to human major depression. Ie it will stop sleeping, eating, engaging in hedonic activities, psychomotor retardation, you name it.
Again, these are no special mice. They are not selected for any particular genetic flaw. Just run of the mill mice that react the way other mice do to stress.
Now thats not to say that some people may react more severly to stress, or perhaps have genetic problems that render them depressed in the absence of environmental factors, but to say that all depression is biological simply cannot be prooven.
>Even those,who
>become depressed after some traumatic life event >are prone to depression by birth due to faulty >genes.Traumatic event just triggers it.Again, that statement cannot be proven. There are theories that may support that view. Some genetic research suggests that certain genes may make one more susceptable to a mental illness after stressfull life events, but these studies only show trends, they are not conclusive, and there are plenty of people who do not fit any one given model.
So, I would argue that to say that all depression is 100% biological is not a provable statement.
Linkadge
Posted by Enigma on August 28, 2007, at 20:41:33
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » jhj, posted by linkadge on August 28, 2007, at 19:50:10
Out of all the people on this site, linkadge, I didn't think even you could be so ignorant.
Posted by Phillipa on August 28, 2007, at 21:44:32
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » jhj, posted by linkadge on August 28, 2007, at 19:50:10
My anxiety and depression if I even have it may just be boredom but it was caused the anxiety diagnosed as PTSD due to the childhood issues of a Mother on a new med cortisone they knew nothing about as new at the time and she got addisons disease and the horrible mental side effects it can cause. She died when I was l7. So I do not believe my anxiety is genetic just life circumstances affected me negatively and created intense fear in me. After that I grew myself up as I had to take care of myself. So different circumstances can also contribute to anxiety/depression in my own circumastances. Can only speak for me. Phillipa
Posted by Optimist on August 28, 2007, at 22:39:54
In reply to Still no cure for my depression - tried everything, posted by Enigma on August 11, 2007, at 11:35:41
Have you considered hormone replacement therapy? Testosterone, cortisol, T3/T4, dhea, pregnenolone, estrogen, progesterone, etc...
If your hormones are out of wack, antidepressants aren't going to be very helpful.
Posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:29:57
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt » jhj, posted by linkadge on August 28, 2007, at 19:50:10
Hi Linkadge,I have social anxiety,GAD and depression since childhood.And i do not recall any traumatic or stressful event taking place in my life till yet.As far as animal models are concerned,they can not be taken seriously.I have seen thousand things being investigated and drugs found using mice and rats.But,It does not lead to anything in the end.You mean to say what happens to rats is more believable then my own case? If i had been normal in childhood,i would have easily said my childhood was as good as anyone.No stressfull events but still terrible mental problems.Can yot tell me what your animal model suggests in my case "conclusively"? Thanks.
Jatin
Posted by jhj on August 29, 2007, at 0:36:49
In reply to Re: Still no cure for my depression - tried everyt, posted by existentialist on August 28, 2007, at 12:28:59
Hi existentialist,In USA they are illegal.But do you get any "punishment" for taking illegal things except trivial ones like doing community service,kept on probation,sent to rehablilitation centre and at worst one month jail? I reside in India.Well if i am caught taking any of the drugs that you have mentioned,i will be sent to jail for six months,if i get caught second time then it will be for two years.And if i am found having these drugs in higher then certain quantity with me,then i am deemed drug peddlar and not consumer.In that case,i will have to spend time behind bar for cool 10 years.
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