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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Pluto on February 5, 2007, at 2:52:01
Hi
Klonopin dampens my libido, so I can't take it anymore. Xanax too is the same. I have found a way out. Use small doses of Ambien instead of benzodiazepines.
What do you think? I take 10mg Ambien at night for sleep. It calms and sedates me. I am planning to take 5 mg during the day.I have done it once and it was fine. My concern is by dosing it during the day, do I make it less effective at night? I can dose 5mg in the morning and stay awake, calm and well tranquillized but no sedation. But I don't want this to happen at night when I need sedation.
Is dosing Ambien during the day a problem? Will it make it less effective at night?
PS: I have no memory problems on Ambien
Posted by Declan on February 5, 2007, at 3:11:53
In reply to Ambien Anxiolytic properties, posted by Pluto on February 5, 2007, at 2:52:01
Of course I don't know, but because Ambien seems to me to be less anxiolytic, it would be more toxic to your sex drive than (say) half the dose of the current benzo you take.
Posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 3:15:19
In reply to Ambien Anxiolytic properties, posted by Pluto on February 5, 2007, at 2:52:01
> Hi
>
> Klonopin dampens my libido, so I can't take it anymore. Xanax too is the same. I have found a way out. Use small doses of Ambien instead of benzodiazepines.
>
> What do you think? I take 10mg Ambien at night for sleep. It calms and sedates me. I am planning to take 5 mg during the day.I have done it once and it was fine. My concern is by dosing it during the day, do I make it less effective at night? I can dose 5mg in the morning and stay awake, calm and well tranquillized but no sedation. But I don't want this to happen at night when I need sedation.
> Is dosing Ambien during the day a problem? Will it make it less effective at night?
> PS: I have no memory problems on Ambien
Not a good idea. Yes, Ambien touches GABA-BZ, but pseudobenzodiazepines are intended only when one can predict to get at least 7 to 8 hours of sleep.
Also, there are several other benzodiazepines you haven't tried, such as Valium.
You may think you have no memory problems but this is not only far off-label, its also only likely to make you more tolerant to Ambien. What if it actually made you fall asleep at the wheel one day? I mean I suppose its not quite as odd an idea as using Halcion during the day but it approaches it. Just because you got away with it once doesn't mean that it will go well the next time. Yes, Ambien can be dosed up up to 20mg, but that's at night.
I don't get the logic, it sedates you at night to sleep, so you want to be half as sedated during the daytime ? Something tells me that if you ran this across your psychiatrist he'd probably tell you the same, or more.
There are far safer anxiolytics to use during the daytime than Ambien, including BuSpar, Neurontin, Lyrica, and Paxil, and various esoteric benzodiazepines such as Serax and Librium.
Plus, more to the point, with the very short half life of Xanax, I'm sure when "the moment" is right, you can drop a pill if you've been dosing it 24/7, considering it usually takes up to 4 doses or more to cover a day.
I can't see it I'm afraid- tidings
Posted by Pluto on February 5, 2007, at 4:22:05
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties, posted by Declan on February 5, 2007, at 3:11:53
> it would be more toxic to your sex drive than (say) half the dose of the current benzo you take.
Declan,Are you sure Ambien too dampen libido? I am male and no problem in delaying orgasm. But 10mg at night doesn't affect my libido. I hope things will be same if I dose it in the daytime too.
Does ambien affect libido?
Posted by Pluto on February 5, 2007, at 4:27:02
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » Pluto, posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 3:15:19
> Also, there are several other benzodiazepines you haven't tried, such as Valium.
No please. I have tried valium too without much luck. It also affects my sex drive. The only benzo (for me) that didn't have this side effect is librium, but unfortunately it amplifies my depression.Can you recommend any other tranquillizer which doesn't have sexual side effects? I don't care delayed orgasm since I am male. But low sex drive is not something that I can afford. I tried both sulpride and amisulpride but they too are the same in the sexual department.
Posted by Phillipa on February 5, 2007, at 11:11:21
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » yxibow, posted by Pluto on February 5, 2007, at 4:27:02
Thought this was about a less sedating benzo or similar med during the day? Love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 13:47:48
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » yxibow, posted by Pluto on February 5, 2007, at 4:27:02
> > Also, there are several other benzodiazepines you haven't tried, such as Valium.
>
>
> No please. I have tried valium too without much luck. It also affects my sex drive. The only benzo (for me) that didn't have this side effect is librium, but unfortunately it amplifies my depression.
>
> Can you recommend any other tranquillizer which doesn't have sexual side effects? I don't care delayed orgasm since I am male. But low sex drive is not something that I can afford. I tried both sulpride and amisulpride but they too are the same in the sexual department.
Yes, probably some scary old line neuroleptic that didn't have prolactin issues. I'm not sure where the need to be sedated (a particular song comes to mind...) What is the diagnosis ?
Benzodiazepines are generally in the low range as far as sex drive. I think anything that "tranquilizes" you will probably lower your sex drive and make you, well.. tranquil, as in medication-assisted disassociation. I mean you could try Atarax I suppose but that's fairly soporific -- its an antihistamine that has anxiolytic properties. Again, the trend is generally sedating medications, sleepiness.
Did you try Serax (oxazepam) ?
How long have you tried these benzodiazepines? When you stopped them, did your sex drive immediately return? Or is there a psychological component to it as well?
You could add a touch of Wellbutrin to your mix, that is one trick usually tried to increase libido, knowing that its sort of like having a fire put out (benzodiazepines) and then starting it up again (Wellbutrin) -- circular, but sometimes works for some people as Wellbutrin can be very sexually stimulating for some (SR/XR -- don't touch the original stuff, seizures, etc... although I suppose it doesn't matter as much since you are taking a benzodiazepine or have been anyway.)
Librium is fairly similar to Valium except much much weaker, which is why they created Valium to follow it.
The atypical antipsychotics, most of them are going to have some sort of prolactin or blunting issue...
The point is, is your depression, which I can only guess to be MDD not knowing your diagnosis, worse than not "getting off", pardon the description, or is the risk of breakthrough depression and suicide worse ?
As I noted, you can take Xanax and then drop a dose or two when you want the plasma level to go down for pleasure... remembering that you have to start it up again fairly immediately or anxiety is going to take over.
Otherwise, I can't really think of anything that I didn't mention before that is not going to have any sexual issues. Just about everything out there, SSRIs, TCAs, etc, have some sexual issue in some people. Its an unfortunate tradeoff to be made between an illness and wanting the pleasures of the prime of your life, so to speak.
So, to summarize, adding a little Wellbutrin maybe and lowering the dosage of benzodiazepines in general, and trying esoteric things like Serax or Atarax if you want to go through those trials.
I hope that helps, and don't think I'm making light of your situation.
Posted by laima on February 5, 2007, at 19:44:15
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » Pluto, posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 3:15:19
Using ambien and not going to sleep has caused me to engage in really bizarre and regretable behavior, which was not apparent at the time, which I have no good, solid recollection of- but which I got evidence of later. Ie, I thought I was just gettting a chill, anti-anxiety effect, no big deal, nothing out of the ordinary-a substitute for a benzo-I felt competent enough-as on a strong benzo. But I was a tad mistaken, I'd find out later. I'd enter a kind of twighlightish zone that I didn't even know I was in while I was in it. This happened more than once before I gathered up what was going on. I wouldn't advise using ambien without going right to sleep!
Posted by laima on February 5, 2007, at 19:46:00
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties, posted by Phillipa on February 5, 2007, at 11:11:21
> Thought this was about a less sedating benzo or similar med during the day? Love Phillipa
I think ambien's actually classified as a "sedative-hypnotic", not a benzo.
Posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 19:54:20
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » Phillipa, posted by laima on February 5, 2007, at 19:46:00
> > Thought this was about a less sedating benzo or similar med during the day? Love Phillipa
>
> I think ambien's actually classified as a "sedative-hypnotic", not a benzo.Yes, a sedative-hypnotic, but so are some benzodiazepines -- Restoril, Halcion, Rohypnol, Dalmane, etc.
Ambien, Lunesta, and Sonata are not technically benzodiazepines, I would call them pseudobenzodiazepine hypnotics -- they do though touch the GABA-BZ receptors in a manner different from benzodiazepine hypnotics. That's why they're still Schedule IV.
Posted by laima on February 5, 2007, at 20:12:06
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » laima, posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 19:54:20
Yes, the only one of those certain benzos I've tried was Restoril, and for me at least, it felt quite different from the more garden variety benzos (if I can say such a thing.) And it felt very different from ambien, too. But what it seemed to have in common with ambien was sort of almost taking over my mental state or behavior- I don't know how to explain- I felt far less control over myself, and very poor recollection of what I did after injesting it. (As if I was part asleep, or should have been?) As if drug was more in control of me than other way around, maybe? A twightlighty-ness? Whatever- didn't care for either ambien or restoril.
> Yes, a sedative-hypnotic, but so are some benzodiazepines -- Restoril, Halcion, Rohypnol, Dalmane, etc.
>
> Ambien, Lunesta, and Sonata are not technically benzodiazepines, I would call them pseudobenzodiazepine hypnotics -- they do though touch the GABA-BZ receptors in a manner different from benzodiazepine hypnotics. That's why they're still Schedule IV.
Posted by FredPotter on February 5, 2007, at 20:56:16
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » Pluto, posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 13:47:48
In my experience there never was a sexual issue with benzos. My first experience with anorgasmia etc was with Marplan years ago. They didn't know anything about this side effect then. Later I took Prozac and that really sent sex down the toilet although my Doc was astounded, "That's a new one!", he chortled
Posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 23:16:45
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » yxibow, posted by laima on February 5, 2007, at 20:12:06
>
> Yes, the only one of those certain benzos I've tried was Restoril, and for me at least, it felt quite different from the more garden variety benzos (if I can say such a thing.) And it felt very different from ambien, too. But what it seemed to have in common with ambien was sort of almost taking over my mental state or behavior- I don't know how to explain- I felt far less control over myself, and very poor recollection of what I did after injesting it. (As if I was part asleep, or should have been?) As if drug was more in control of me than other way around, maybe? A twightlighty-ness? Whatever- didn't care for either ambien or restoril.
Either of those can do that, which is why I suggested it would not be a great idea to use it in the daytime, even though I do believe that the Ambien I take at night does give a micro nudge to the general GABA soup that is my polypharmacy.
The scary one for me was Dalmane, at least at the time I tried it -- it was very powerful and yes, I felt like the drug had me in control.
But in a sense that is what a hypnotic is, its not evil mind control games (except for date rape and we wont go there as that is an infinite topic in itself), but in the best of situations it attempts to take over what would otherwise be the body's natural inclination to self-hypnotize, that is, natural unaided sleep. But that's a hard step to reach when you're an insomniac, believe me.Some doctors advocate an attempt to have no sleep aids, the theory being over time the body will adjust itself. The trouble is of course, we have this thing called life (well mine is being eaten at by a Somatiform disorder, but for those who have a 9-5'er plus) that doesn't like to be cranky in the morning so you don't yell at your coworkers or even worse have a breakdown in front of your boss. If we could put all that in a vacuum, a month or two later, we might be able to get by with largely no sleep aid because the body would reset itself. But its not typically the most opportune thing, so we don't. We fall into a pattern of sedative-hypnotics, be it Rx'd or OTC.
-- to better sleep... at night, and not in the daytime.
tidings
Posted by laima on February 6, 2007, at 10:29:00
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » laima, posted by yxibow on February 5, 2007, at 23:16:45
Indeed, bottom line: I agree. Best not to mess with anything sedative/hypnotic in the daytime. Or to take them too early in the evening and then instead of sleeping, decide it's a groovy-trippy feeling, a great time to make phone calls, send emails, go on errands, etc! Results can be mortifying, or worse.
> >
> > Yes, the only one of those certain benzos I've tried was Restoril, and for me at least, it felt quite different from the more garden variety benzos (if I can say such a thing.) And it felt very different from ambien, too. But what it seemed to have in common with ambien was sort of almost taking over my mental state or behavior- I don't know how to explain- I felt far less control over myself, and very poor recollection of what I did after injesting it. (As if I was part asleep, or should have been?) As if drug was more in control of me than other way around, maybe? A twightlighty-ness? Whatever- didn't care for either ambien or restoril.
>
>
> Either of those can do that, which is why I suggested it would not be a great idea to use it in the daytime, even though I do believe that the Ambien I take at night does give a micro nudge to the general GABA soup that is my polypharmacy.
>
>
> The scary one for me was Dalmane, at least at the time I tried it -- it was very powerful and yes, I felt like the drug had me in control.
>
>
> But in a sense that is what a hypnotic is, its not evil mind control games (except for date rape and we wont go there as that is an infinite topic in itself), but in the best of situations it attempts to take over what would otherwise be the body's natural inclination to self-hypnotize, that is, natural unaided sleep. But that's a hard step to reach when you're an insomniac, believe me.
>
> Some doctors advocate an attempt to have no sleep aids, the theory being over time the body will adjust itself. The trouble is of course, we have this thing called life (well mine is being eaten at by a Somatiform disorder, but for those who have a 9-5'er plus) that doesn't like to be cranky in the morning so you don't yell at your coworkers or even worse have a breakdown in front of your boss. If we could put all that in a vacuum, a month or two later, we might be able to get by with largely no sleep aid because the body would reset itself. But its not typically the most opportune thing, so we don't. We fall into a pattern of sedative-hypnotics, be it Rx'd or OTC.
>
> -- to better sleep... at night, and not in the daytime.
>
> tidings
Posted by FredPotter on February 6, 2007, at 14:10:00
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » yxibow, posted by laima on February 6, 2007, at 10:29:00
I am doing the prologue part of Centrepointe Holosync binaural beats-aided meditation. It usually sends me to sleep, which is not the either, but of off-label interest. Trouble is you roll over in the night and prepare to do battle with what turns out to be a pair of headphones
Fred
Posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 15:09:19
In reply to Ambien Anxiolytic properties, posted by Pluto on February 5, 2007, at 2:52:01
Hi Pluto
For how long (how many hours) does a dose of Ambien relieve your anxiety?
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 15:17:03
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » yxibow, posted by laima on February 6, 2007, at 10:29:00
>Best not to mess with anything sedative/hypnotic in the daytime.
Don't forget that all of the commonly used benzodiazepines are sedative-hypnotics. In most cases it's mainly a matter of marketing. For example........ Xanax, which is marketed as an anxiolytic, could have been marketed as a hypnotic eg. 500mcg at night. Restoril, which is marketed an a hypnotic, could have been marketed as an anxiolytic eg. 10mg three times a day. Ambien is somewhat different to the benzodiazepines in that its effects are predominantly hypnotic.
Ed
Posted by Pluto on February 6, 2007, at 21:48:11
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » Pluto, posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 15:09:19
> Hi Pluto
>
> For how long (how many hours) does a dose of Ambien relieve your anxiety?
>
> EdHi Ed,
Ambien would relieve my anxiety almost exactly like Xanax or a bit longer.
Posted by laima on February 6, 2007, at 23:09:19
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » laima, posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2007, at 15:17:03
I'd say restoril is the only so called "benzo" which pulled me under like a strong current shortly after I injested it.
There was no time for relaxation, dreaminess, relief for anxiety- just very strong "tug-under"-sudden, severe. No way could I fathom using it during the day. Isn't this the drug the military gives to combat pilots so they get some brief sleep between high-adrenaline runs? Supposedly its effect is that severe and sudden. I thought I read this somewhere a year or two ago-maybe someone knows. Staying awake even a short time on this is like something beyond the land of drunk-with-benzo. No motor control, either.Yes, staying awake on ambien kind of like a waking dream.
> >Best not to mess with anything sedative/hypnotic in the daytime.
>
> Don't forget that all of the commonly used benzodiazepines are sedative-hypnotics. In most cases it's mainly a matter of marketing. For example........ Xanax, which is marketed as an anxiolytic, could have been marketed as a hypnotic eg. 500mcg at night. Restoril, which is marketed an a hypnotic, could have been marketed as an anxiolytic eg. 10mg three times a day. Ambien is somewhat different to the benzodiazepines in that its effects are predominantly hypnotic.
>
> Ed
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2007, at 14:14:32
In reply to Ambien Anxiolytic properties, posted by Pluto on February 5, 2007, at 2:52:01
Ambien is not a good anxiolytic. If you continued to take it during the daytime and escalated the dose based upon the inevitable tolerance, you'd find this out soon enough--if you didn't die in a car wreck or something first. Seriously, do not do this. I have met people that have and all of their experiences ended in police custody.
I highly doubt there is any doctor that has ever done this, for, as others have said, there are simply better drugs available.
All benzodiazepines will dampen the libido to some extent; you probably were just taking more clonazepam relative to the amount of alprazolam you're taking, although there are subtle differences. Are you sure you're not looking for a "high"? Benzodiazepines do not do this. I do not want to sound too paternalistic, but once one gets used to taking benzodiazepines, not experiencing [as much] anxiety becomes the norm, and the novelty is gone.
In psychopharmacology, the adage "perfect is the enemy of good" definitely holds true to an extent. Are you sure you have reasonable expectations?
I take Nardil and d-amphetamine, and often I feel great; but it's still far from a shot of 10mg each of heroin and methamphetamine. This is a good thing.
Posted by ed_uk on February 7, 2007, at 15:05:19
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » ed_uk, posted by laima on February 6, 2007, at 23:09:19
Hi Laima
Are you sure it was temazepam (Restoril)? What dose did you take?
>I'd say restoril is the only so called "benzo" which pulled me under like a strong current shortly after I injested it.
Interesting. I find it relatively non-sedating. Xanax, on the other hand, knocks me out.
>Supposedly its effect is that severe and sudden.
Not for most people, Ambien generally 'kicks in' much more rapidly. On average, the peak effects of Restoril occur after approximately one hour. Taking it 30 mins before bedtime is OK for most people.
>Isn't this the drug the military gives to combat pilots so they get some brief sleep between high-adrenaline runs?
I belive the military has used it. Ambien is now preferred though - for its rapid onset and shorter duration of action. Restoril is more likely to cause residual drowsiness the following day due to its considerably longer half life.
Posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 19:56:05
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » laima, posted by ed_uk on February 7, 2007, at 15:05:19
OH ya, it was restoril, though probably the generic if there is one. I'm afraid I don't remember the dose. See, now I find xanax rather unsedating- but restoril- whew! Might as well throw a blanket over me and pull me under. Sudden and severe. Very, stunningly sudden. (I used this for less than a week.)Now ambien, the extended version- I'd take, and stay up for hours afterwards. Even the time I cheated and took double. It would not put me to sleep, just put me into a twighlight zone, though a rather pleasant one. I probably would have fallen asleep if I went to bed, but I had no interest or desire to do so.
I almost had an aversion to going to bed.
(Didn't use that med for longer than a couple weeks, either.)> Hi Laima
>
> Are you sure it was temazepam (Restoril)? What dose did you take?
>
> >I'd say restoril is the only so called "benzo" which pulled me under like a strong current shortly after I injested it.
>
> Interesting. I find it relatively non-sedating. Xanax, on the other hand, knocks me out.
>
> >Supposedly its effect is that severe and sudden.
>
> Not for most people, Ambien generally 'kicks in' much more rapidly. On average, the peak effects of Restoril occur after approximately one hour. Taking it 30 mins before bedtime is OK for most people.
>
> >Isn't this the drug the military gives to combat pilots so they get some brief sleep between high-adrenaline runs?
>
> I belive the military has used it. Ambien is now preferred though - for its rapid onset and shorter duration of action. Restoril is more likely to cause residual drowsiness the following day due to its considerably longer half life.
>
>
Posted by elanor roosevelt on February 7, 2007, at 22:43:59
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties » Declan, posted by Pluto on February 5, 2007, at 4:22:05
ambien makes orgasm (for me, a female) an absolute impossibilty
ambien at a half dose will leave you with a headache about 2 hours later
taking a small dose of ambien will negatively effect sleeping later on
regular dose might not do the job
i have heard that valium is known for increasing erotic notions
let me know if you find this to be true
Posted by yxibow on February 8, 2007, at 0:45:06
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties, posted by elanor roosevelt on February 7, 2007, at 22:43:59
> ambien makes orgasm (for me, a female) an absolute impossibilty
> ambien at a half dose will leave you with a headache about 2 hours later
> taking a small dose of ambien will negatively effect sleeping later on
> regular dose might not do the job
> i have heard that valium is known for increasing erotic notions
> let me know if you find this to be true
Hmm... I should have lots of erotic notions considering the dose of Valium I have to take at this point. Unfortunately I am rather flat on that end of things but that could be due to the polypharmacy.
Are you saying that Ambien makes orgasm impossible 24 hours later ? Ambien has a fairly short half life as do most pseudobenzodiazepines. Its intended for sleep and it would sort of follow that orgasms or most active human activity would be dampened.Headache is conceivable, I've never had it on Ambien though, and I take it up to 20mg.
As for the benzodiazepine that "sucks you in", I'd say for me it's Dalmane. Rather powerful stuff. Restoril, as Ed mentioned, takes a longer period of time and for whatever reason is actually occasionally dosed for daytime anxiety like Xanax, although I wouldn't recommend it -- Restoril is a small metabolite of Valium actually.
Posted by elanor roosevelt on February 8, 2007, at 9:36:46
In reply to Re: Ambien Anxiolytic properties, posted by yxibow on February 8, 2007, at 0:45:06
> > ambien makes orgasm (for me, a female) an absolute impossibilty
this is only when the ambien is active and true for me for only about the first 3 hours
a full dose of ambien puts me to sleep for 5 hours
(okay a friend woke me up once and the timeline was a pleasant surprise)
ambien, when used as a recreational drug -- which it is by many-- not me -- i consider sleep to be lovely an elusive and need each and evet pill for that purpose --
anyway ambien lowers inhibitions radically -- what you say, food craving and getting a bit randy
but the "randiness" can be frustrating for women
is this true of men?
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