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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 67 to 91 of 297. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 15:13:55
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » linkadge, posted by Glydin on February 28, 2006, at 16:44:32
Well, there are many different types of post.
But there is certainly one type which involves the assigning of undue merrit to drugs.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 15:23:46
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyone? » linkadge, posted by TylerJ on February 28, 2006, at 17:18:09
That doesn't necessarily mean that your REM sleep is not being supressed. A drug can still be supressing or reducing REM sleep significantly without eliminating it.
I am not saying that the drugs do not work for certain people. But, if I was to take a drug I would like to know the overall sucess rate. I guess I am just asking that patients be made aware of how effective a drug is.
Its just like how I disagree with common drug company practice that says it is allowed to conceil as many failed trials as it likes.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 15:26:22
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyone? » linkadge, posted by tizza on February 28, 2006, at 18:45:53
Hey, I'm up for some bowling.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 15:31:54
In reply to Re: Yes, posted by FredPotter on February 28, 2006, at 21:31:59
I think fading placebo effect is certainly a component of poop out.
I think the placebo effect is stronger with the first drug you take. When I first took an AD I was so naive. I figured that it was all an exact science and the pill was fixing this medical abnormality. The more I read, the more sceptical I become, and the less I seem to respond to drugs.
Knowledge too, about the dangers and hazzards of a drug, can work in the opposite way to the placebo effect. For it to work, you need to see the drug as a clearly good thing. There can't be any doubt in your mind. The more doubt, the less placebo effect.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 15:38:38
In reply to Re: Yes, posted by Comet on February 28, 2006, at 21:52:07
I think I would respectfully disagree with your respectfull disagreement.
I have fooled **everbody**. I have fooled doctors, parents, grandmothers, best friends, pets, pastors etc. If I feel the *need* to put on normal face, nobody knows my suffering.
While friends can sometimes be good, at least in my case, they are clueless.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 15:46:10
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » yxibow, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 1, 2006, at 10:32:38
Hey I completely agree. Its like I said it before. People get better on their own, but people like their rabit's feet. They like to have that little symbol of what they believe empowers them. People like to feel in control of their recovery, that is part of the recovery process, the gaining of sence of controll. Some people attibute their recovery to religion, some people to SSRI's so take your pick.
Sure, you can say that people got better on SSRI's, but people get better naturally too. The only way that we have to distinguish the two, is the double blind placebo trial, and the results of that, are not so great.
BTW
put me down for some morphine+d-amphetamine.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 15:50:44
In reply to Phillipa, posted by andromeda on March 1, 2006, at 10:37:16
It is a good point that the meds are not always so safe and benign. Who knows what the cumulative effect of ingesting the chemical cosh that the average patient is subjected to. To get better, and to get back into the world you need your whole brain, your wits, intelect etc. If I take an AP, I relapse, because the cognitive problems always make me enter a phase of learning avoidance, then goes the downward spiral.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 15:53:37
In reply to addendum to my post, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 1, 2006, at 10:40:01
And thats another example of the doctor not treating the patient as a whole. The orgasm is a powerfull thing. Sexual Healing. An orgasm can produce significant changes in immune system. Wipe that out for extended periods of time, and bad things result.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2006, at 15:57:26
In reply to Re: addendum to my post » tessellated, posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2006, at 15:00:12
Lets start a med board only for positive experiences to an SSRI or an SNRI. Think of someone new reading this thread. You could scare them and that in my opinion would not be fair. Think of the average person they don't have the knowledge you have so let them take it in babysteps. Okay? And what about a positive med board? Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 16:00:02
In reply to Re: To Linkadge, posted by deniseuk on March 1, 2006, at 11:43:39
But define "antidepressants work". If by work you mean taking a drug produces some very favorable short term effects, then perhaps they do.
But if by work, you mean that the drug gets to the root of the problem, and produces a sustainable, consistant, and dependable relief from the depressive illness, then I'd disagree.
The antidepressant effects of sleep deprivation are very rapid. People can go from suicidal to well within one night. It is not a cure for depression. It is my contention that some AD's work by mimicking the effects of sleep deprivation. This is great, but like regular sleep deprivation, the effect of AD's often wears off.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 16:00:28
In reply to Re: To Linkadge, posted by deniseuk on March 1, 2006, at 11:43:39
But define "antidepressants work". If by work you mean taking a drug produces some very favorable short term effects, then perhaps they do.
But if by work, you mean that the drug gets to the root of the problem, and produces a sustainable, consistant, and dependable relief from the depressive illness, then I'd disagree.
The antidepressant effects of sleep deprivation are very rapid. People can go from suicidal to well within one night. It is not a cure for depression. It is my contention that some AD's work by mimicking the effects of sleep deprivation. This is great, but like regular sleep deprivation, the effect of AD's often wears off.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 16:02:41
In reply to Re: To Linkadge, posted by deniseuk on March 1, 2006, at 11:43:39
It was the same thing with my mother. She speaks so highly of doxepin which provided some very rapid relief to her depression. Unfortunately, the dose went up and up and up. That, to me, is not a drug that "works"
Linkadge
Posted by wildcard11 on March 1, 2006, at 16:42:59
In reply to Re:New Idea, posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2006, at 15:57:26
are like as*holes, we all have one. I will not say that all SSRI's or SNRI's do not work and that MAOI's are better. It all depends on the INDIVIDUAL. In my opinion, meds and therapy can work wonders but there are many people with chemical imbalances and have felt relief from the SSRI's and SNRI's. MAOI's do not work for everyone and vice versa. Just my input.
Posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2006, at 17:02:40
In reply to Opinions, posted by wildcard11 on March 1, 2006, at 16:42:59
And the less sleep I get the more depressed and anxious I become. Can you explain this? Why meds such as lunesta and ambien if sleep is not important for recovery from mental illness to physical illness. Heck patients in a hospital medical are awoken all night for vital signs, breath sounds, etc. When they go home they all say thank god I'll finally get some sleep. Fondly, Phillipa now let's put this whole conversation to rest.
Posted by tizza on March 1, 2006, at 17:09:32
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » Chairman_MAO, posted by yxibow on March 1, 2006, at 1:44:03
> > The only FDA-approved antidepressants that deserve that designation are the irreversible MAOIs.
> >
> > There are other drugs that do this as well, but most people consider them "drugs of abuse".
> >
> > In Goodman & Gilman's "Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics", they state outright that the response rate of most antidepressants differs from placebo by the barest of margins. What this doctor said to you is reality.
> >
>
>
> Just because I am assuming you get benefit from MAOIs I gather -- the last resort of antidepressants, which have dangerous issues with diet, does not mean that the millions of people by now who have taken SSRIs have not gotten at least some relief from them.
>
> By drugs of abuse, It would assume you're referring to the 19th century idea of using opiates to cure depression, which would verge on the edge of a practitioner losing their DEA license (yes, I know about the Oxycodone experiment on this board and I wish the individual well).
>
> Antidepressants are tested in Phase trials that compare them to other antidepressants and p values . If their p value doesn't come within a statistical range, the Phase trials are usually halted.
>
> I dont mean to insult you, but the statement seems to come out of left field. Not every antidepressant is right for every person. But I know of many people who have been helped by SSRIs.
>
> We can all go back and forth bantering on this issue, but it does a disservice I think to those who are currently being helped by SSRIs on this board. I'm sure this won't be the last posting.
>
> And I do agree with one of the earlier posts -- some people benefit greatly with minor augmentation of SSRIs with mild atypical antipsychotics.
>
>
> Tidings and no bad feelings meant
>
>
> Jay
Jay that was the worst combo for me by far, atypical's (zyprexa and seroquel) taken at different periods, with AD's was horrendous. I know eveyone is different and i suppose it depends what you are being treated for but that just put me into to a stupor and i cant believe i held my job down, plus a load of other crazy sh*t that happened at the time, it's just so freaky how differently we all react. Paul
Posted by FredPotter on March 1, 2006, at 17:10:09
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon » Chairman_MAO, posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 15:46:10
It's fairly straightforward for me. I get sick when I live alone (eventually) but get well when I co-habit, even though I may not knowingly need people
Posted by tizza on March 1, 2006, at 17:53:58
In reply to Re:New Idea, posted by Phillipa on March 1, 2006, at 15:57:26
> Lets start a med board only for positive experiences to an SSRI or an SNRI. Think of someone new reading this thread. You could scare them and that in my opinion would not be fair. Think of the average person they don't have the knowledge you have so let them take it in babysteps. Okay? And what about a positive med board? Love Phillipa
Phillipa that is a very good and valid suggestion but on the other hand if I hadn't found this board/forum I think I would have gone completely mad and might not have been here on this planet. If I hadn't read about other peoples good and bad reactions to different medications and treatments I don't know what would have become of me. I don't take everything that I read here as gospel but all the different opinions have made me think, feel, relate and empathise. Some people in here have had amazing reactions to SSRI's and SNRI's and at the other end of the spectrum some people have committed suicide. I don't think you have opened a can of worms here I think that you have started a fantastic debate about good and bad experiences and maybe it's a good idea for new people to read what other people have been through. It's been one of the best discussions I have read in here for ages that relates to me personally. So thankyou Paul.
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 18:01:21
In reply to Re: The Truth Do SSRI's and SSNRI's Work For Anyon, posted by FredPotter on March 1, 2006, at 17:10:09
Social iscolation selectively reduces BDNF.
http://biopsychiatry.com/bdnf-socisol.htm
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 18:09:33
In reply to Re:New Idea » Phillipa, posted by tizza on March 1, 2006, at 17:53:58
I agree. There is no need to silence such discussion. If peoples experiences can help others than that is a good thing.
Linkadge
Posted by TylerJ on March 1, 2006, at 18:24:45
In reply to Opinions, posted by wildcard11 on March 1, 2006, at 16:42:59
> are like as*holes, we all have one. I will not say that all SSRI's or SNRI's do not work and that MAOI's are better. It all depends on the INDIVIDUAL. In my opinion, meds and therapy can work wonders but there are many people with chemical imbalances and have felt relief from the SSRI's and SNRI's. MAOI's do not work for everyone and vice versa. Just my input.
You are absolutely right...I totally agree! But that's just my opinion and you know what they about *ss..I mean opinions..LOL
Tyler
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 18:39:24
In reply to Re: Opinions » wildcard11, posted by TylerJ on March 1, 2006, at 18:24:45
But statistics do not depend on the individual.
Ie. Theres no shame in suggesting for instance that wellbutrin has no efficacy in say OCD. If thats what the statistics say, then so be it.Linkadge
Posted by wildcard11 on March 1, 2006, at 18:59:04
In reply to Re: Opinions, posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 18:39:24
yes but statistics are based on an average. most people i know are not in that 'average'.
Posted by Comet on March 1, 2006, at 19:37:48
In reply to Re: Yes » Comet, posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 15:38:38
> I have fooled **everbody**. I have fooled doctors, parents, grandmothers, best friends, pets, pastors etc. If I feel the *need* to put on normal face, nobody knows my suffering.
>
> While friends can sometimes be good, at least in my case, they are clueless.Sorry that your friends and loved ones aren't more helpful. But close friends and loved ones can often detect changes in one's mood, dispositionand emotional state for good or for ill. Of course, if you're actively trying to fool them - then they may not be able to see through your shields. I can tell you that my ex went from being nearly impossible to be close to - to being quite stable within a few weeks of starting an SSRI. She was not faking it to make me feel better - she was genuinely coping with the world and handling her issues with much more stability than she had at any time in the prior two years of our relationship. It was a sea change and not a subtle one - but she didn't even realize how far she had come in so short of time.
Posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 19:52:30
In reply to Re: Yes, posted by Comet on March 1, 2006, at 19:37:48
No, its not as if I am making an effort to fake my mood. It is more along the lines of the fact that I had taken so many different innefective medications that I simply gave up on trying to express my true feelings in any acurate way.
So a doctors appointment would be reduced to the fastest way to try and get it over with.
It is a very common thing for family and friends of suicide victoms to report having absolutely no indication of what happened. Oftentimes friends claim that s/he showed no signs of such. That is an important thing to keep in mind.
Linkadge
Posted by Comet on March 1, 2006, at 20:23:14
In reply to Re: Yes, posted by linkadge on March 1, 2006, at 19:52:30
> No, its not as if I am making an effort to fake my mood. It is more along the lines of the fact that I had taken so many different innefective medications that I simply gave up on trying to express my true feelings in any acurate way.
>
> So a doctors appointment would be reduced to the fastest way to try and get it over with.
>
> It is a very common thing for family and friends of suicide victoms to report having absolutely no indication of what happened. Oftentimes friends claim that s/he showed no signs of such. That is an important thing to keep in mind.
>
>
> Linkadge
Do I think it's possible to not know what mental state a close friend or loved one is in? Absolutely, no question this is true. My only point is that it's also quite possible for a loved one or friend to notice improvement before the patient does herself. This seems obvious to me - but perhaps it's because I've seen this first hand.Also, you seem to be discouraged by your personal experience with trying various medications with poor results. I'm sure this is personally frustrating and even maddening to you. But that does not mean that the drugs are wholly ineffective for everyone. I've known longterm users of SSRIs who have done wonderfully on them. I've known others who've quit after experiencing side effects.
This is my second round myself. My first round was with Prozac, which I took when I was in a personal and professional rut that seemed endless and impossible to escape. After a couple of months of taking it, I had started to date the woman I would eventually marry and managed to start down a road towards a major career change after years of feeling stuck in my job. I quit the prozac becuase I didn't like the sexual side effects (after all, I had just met the woman I eventually marry). So in a way it was a failure because I quit - on the other hand my life is 1000X better today than it was the day I started prozac. Coincidence? Maybe. I sure as hell don't regret trying.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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