![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 78. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 10:12:44
In reply to Re: *DON'T MISS THIS* - Listen to Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 9:09:51
And the comment she made about every third person being bipolar. I don't want to offend anyone on the board, but it is true.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 11:22:45
In reply to *DON'T MISS THIS* - Listen to Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by ReadersLeaders on December 10, 2005, at 1:26:01
First thing I'd like to say is that Ms. Tracy uses the honorific Dr. deceptively. She is not an M.D. She is a Ph.D. To use the honorific Dr. in the context of discussions of medicine is improper.
I just roamed the web for about an hour or so, looking for quotations by Dr. Ann Blake Tracy. I thought I'd show where her thinking was erroneous, or whatever. The usual debate process. But, I don't need to do that. I'll just let you read her own words. I didn't keep any links, but if you know how to use google, you can find the sources quickly. Individual "finds" are numbered, solely to keep them separate from one another.
Quack, quack, quack, beginning here:
1. "If feeling depressed, please take one tab of LSD or inject one-quarter gram of PCP. This will have the same effect on the human body and mind as a prescription for common antidepressants such as Prozac, Paxil, and Luvox", according to Dr. Ann Blake Tracy, a Ph.D. in psychology and health sciences and executive director of the International Coalition for Drug Awareness.
2. "And many of these drugs were approved by the FDA when there was only five to six weeks of research done on them."
{{I cringe at this one...}}
3. "It is also why I have great concern over cities where the water is fluoridated. With Prozac being 18% fluoride and it being a main ingredient in Paxil, Luvox, Phen-Fen, etc. I am concerned that there may possibly be a synergistic effect from the water that could throw patients on these drugs into toxic reactions."
4. Dr. Tracy in her interview told of a study on bipolar depression which indicated that there was a high rate of diabetes among bipolars and the study admitted they've known for decades that all mental illness is blood sugar related. So Dr. Tracy asks, "Why should we be surprised to find a high rate of diabetes among those who have it?" According to Dr. Tracy, often times simply removing sugar from the diet will cause the problem to be cured.
5. "Medical research documents that what is beneficial is an increase in the metabolism of serotonin. Here are the results of elevated levels of serotonin (5HT) and decreased levels of serotonin metabolism (5HIAA):
Elevated 5HT (serotonin) levels:
schizophrenia, psychosis, mania, etc.
mood disorders (depression, anxiety, etc.)
organic brain disease - especially mental retardation at a greater incident rate in
children
autism (a self-centered or self-focused mental state with no basis in reality)
Alzheimer's disease
old age"
{{I can't resist a comment.....Elevated serotonin causes old age.....}}
6. "Large numbers of Prozac patients report false memories of abuse. As disruption of serotonin alters perception, reality and dreams seem one and the same, creating a stronger hypersuggestable state than hypnotism."
{{Here's a question and answer from a discussion forum....}}
7. My Email first quoted Dr. Tracy in an interview and then I asked my question:
According to Tracy, "There's a lot of science to demonstrate that depression is the result of an inability to metabolize serotonin, but somehow the drug companies have got the world believing that an increase in serotonin, rather than an increase in serotonin metabolism, is what the depressed person needs."Dr. Tracy, then how does a person increase the metabolism of serotonin? I've been trying to research to discover this, but can not find the information.
Please help.....
Darlene
Her reply to (the) email is as follows:
" I discuss them in my book and tape. The only things I have found that do this are natural. One is sunshine, garlic, negative ions, exercise, and anything that will help the pineal gland to function better like frankensence oil or brain power oil . . . and I wonder about digestive enzymes. We are still looking for ways to accomplish that. That is why chemically increasing levels is so terrible . . . we know so little about increasing it."
Dr. Tracy
8. "All mental illness is blood sugar related," Tracy said. "Therefore, all depression and other mental illnesses can be fixed by proper exercise and diet. Also the right amount of sleep can help the illness", said Tracy
9. "It is rare for me to interview someone who is using Prozac who is not drinking at least a gallon or generally two to three gallons per day of diet soda sweetened with NutraSweet!"
10. "Can you remember two decades ago when depressed people used to slip away quietly to kill themselves rather than killing everyone around them and then themselves, as they do while taking an SSRI antidepressant?"
11. "We have never seen drugs so similar to LSD and PCP as these SSRI antidepressants are."
12. "When you understand the problems behind the SSRI hypothesis it becomes clear that these are among the most deadly drugs the world has ever seen and should NEVER be reserved for anyone for any reason. They are in the same class as LSD and PCP."
13. "The day will come that we will recognize that the drug (Prozac) is so similar to PCP and LSD that we will question why we ever accepted the drug as helpful in any way."
14. "People on these SSRI antidepressants average 60-70 pounds in weight gain."
15. "Sugar pills are 25% more effective than antidepressants."
16. "The most significant thing essential oils do is to get the pineal gland working again. The pineal gland metabolizes 50% of the serotonin in the system. After using these antidepressants, which inhibit the metabolizing of serotonin, you need to get it working again to clear out the overload.
When that pineal gland is overloaded, the result is something like that experienced by Andrea Yates. She said that she felt possessed, like someone else's brain was in her head.
The pineal gland is known as the third eye, the seat of the soul. It's the connection to the higher self, the connection to the spirit. With high levels of serotonin in the brain, that connection is literally severed.
Therapeutic-grade essential oils that are high in sesquiterpenes — like frankincense, myrrh, sandalwood, lavender and peppermint, and the blends that contain these oils — are especially helpful in this clearing process, because sesquiterpenes have the ability to cross the blood-brain barrier to oxygenate the brain and clear out plaques and toxins."
17. "The reason for the danger in this combination of cough and Luvox use lies in the interaction between popular cough medications containing dextromethophan and the serotonergic antidepressants. The mixing of these two can greatly increase the possibility of a toxic reaction known as serotonin syndrome leading to PCP (Angel Dust) reactions."
18. "They wanted me to tell you a little bit about what is in my tape about what oils to use?I will condense it. Some of the first products of Young Living's I'd recommend is PowerMeal™?anything to help regulate the blood sugar, its very important to get the blood sugar balanced; and Theives™ oil blend, because the blood sugar is going crazy when withdrawal from these antidepressants and also will help with psychotic breaks that come with the withdrawal.
Other oils that people reported that really helped them are Joy™ oil blend (you got to remember, Joy contains Belmont (sic) which has been used for centuries for bipolar or manic depression) and Clarity™ oil blend (because of the confusion you will get), BrainPower™ oil blend of course (you got to get the pineal gland to work again, its just been too much overload with too much serotonin, because the main function of the pineal gland is metabolism of serotonin. It handles 50% of the serotonin in the system), and Frankincense after these drugs (because of the risk of getting cancer; we know Paxil increases the risk of breast cancer by 7%. So if you are getting an increase with one of them, they all work the same way, they are all going to do it), Idaho Balsam Fir is another one I'd strongly recommend because of its effect on cortisol (because these drugs raise cortisol at an absolute alarming rate, you got to do that). Those are the main things I'd recommend."
There you have it. All mental illness is blood sugar related, and you can fix those problems with essential oil blends. Oh, and something about pineal overload.
Lar
P.S. I'd be happy to explain why her information is flawed, if there any questions about that.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on December 10, 2005, at 11:50:33
In reply to Re: *DON'T MISS THIS* - Listen to Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 9:09:51
> I have to be honest with you folks. It was true for me. SSRI's made me want to kill myself. I can't explain it. I had been on them for 5 years and it just got to the point where I would say I wanted to kill myself every 5 minautes.
Hey link, that happened to me too - in my first depressive episode I never ever thought about suicide or self harm, then wham! put on prozac and was obsessed by it and I started to self harm. Its pretty scary really.
Posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 12:40:37
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » ReadersLeaders, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 11:22:45
I think you're missing the point. Although some of what she has said may be inacurate, a lot of what she says is accurate, even if not medically backed up at the time.
She may make some bold statements to try and get people's attention.
Her comments on SSRI's and rem sleep disorders not inacurate.
As well, she is not the first one who implicated serotonin in aging. "The Zone" books also have implicated it. Mainly because elevated serotoin can surpress melatonin and cause premature aging.
I don't think her link between the widespread distibution of SSRI's and increased frequency of bipolar diagnosis is inacurate either.
Her comments on serotonin syndrome are accurate as well.
What about her comments on the Lilly employee?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 12:43:58
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » ReadersLeaders, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 11:22:45
"Large numbers of Prozac patients report false memories of abuse. As disruption of serotonin alters perception, reality and dreams seem one and the same, creating a stronger hypersuggestable state than hypnotism."
Actually I agree with that statement wholeheartedly. After using an SSRI for many years, eventually I became a "SSRI Zombie", (I didn't coin that term), where many days I wasn't sure if I was awake or dead. My sleep became so poor on them, that I felt that I was living in a dream.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 12:46:17
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 12:43:58
17. "The reason for the danger in this combination of cough and Luvox use lies in the interaction between popular cough medications containing dextromethophan and the serotonergic antidepressants. The mixing of these two can greatly increase the possibility of a toxic reaction known as serotonin syndrome leading to PCP (Angel Dust) reactions."
Sorry I don't see what is wrong with this comment. I had a strong rage reaction to an SSRI DXM combintation. DXM is a serotonin uptake inhibitor/NDMA antagonist
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 13:14:05
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 12:46:17
> 17. "The reason for the danger in this combination of cough and Luvox use lies in the interaction between popular cough medications containing dextromethophan and the serotonergic antidepressants. The mixing of these two can greatly increase the possibility of a toxic reaction known as serotonin syndrome leading to PCP (Angel Dust) reactions."
>
> Sorry I don't see what is wrong with this comment. I had a strong rage reaction to an SSRI DXM combintation. DXM is a serotonin uptake inhibitor/NDMA antagonist
>
> LinkadgePCP is a dissociative anaesthetic. Do you see a difference between that and your DXM experience?
It is an absurd progression (her comment), despite the existence of the known interaction.http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/bulletin/bulletin_1974-01-01_4_page003.html
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 13:17:07
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 12:43:58
> "Large numbers of Prozac patients report false memories of abuse. As disruption of serotonin alters perception, reality and dreams seem one and the same, creating a stronger hypersuggestable state than hypnotism."
>
> Actually I agree with that statement wholeheartedly. After using an SSRI for many years, eventually I became a "SSRI Zombie", (I didn't coin that term), where many days I wasn't sure if I was awake or dead. My sleep became so poor on them, that I felt that I was living in a dream.
>
>
> LinkadgeYou falsely came to believe you were abused? You were more hypersuggestable than if hypnotized?
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 13:51:28
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 12:40:37
> I think you're missing the point. Although some of what she has said may be inacurate, a lot of what she says is accurate, even if not medically backed up at the time.
Anybody can be correct, once in a while. I expect more than that from someone holding themselves out as a doctor. And she hasn't a clue about medical science. "one tab of LSD....the same effect on body and mind as Prozac"? One shouldn't have to filter the data supplied by self-accredited experts.
> She may make some bold statements to try and get people's attention.
You are too kind. If the evidence can speak for itself, let it. Otherwise, it rightly has no voice. She is spreading falsehoods.
> Her comments on SSRI's and rem sleep disorders not inacurate.Again, I'm not going to try and find where she's right. If I did, I'd consider it a fluke.
> As well, she is not the first one who implicated serotonin in aging. "The Zone" books also have implicated it. Mainly because elevated serotoin can surpress melatonin and cause premature aging.
She can't explain her theory. Essential oils will not solve "the problem". Elevated serotonin is not the problem, because there is no such condition. Serotonin is a precursor to melatonin, so how could it suppress melatonin? What is premature aging? She cannot bring these ideas into a coherent whole. There is no coherency.
> I don't think her link between the widespread distibution of SSRI's and increased frequency of bipolar diagnosis is inacurate either.
Correlation. Children with larger feet spell much better than children with smaller feet. Be wary of a third factor.
> Her comments on serotonin syndrome are accurate as well.That's all it takes?
> What about her comments on the Lilly employee?
>
>
> LinkadgeI make no broad conclusions out of anecdote. She ought to know better, if she had the training she claims. I have yet to discover the institution that granted her Ph.D. I have seen some of her original writing. She is barely literate. She is not a scientist. At least, not in a sense which I appreciate.
Believe what you want. She makes a living out of that.
"All mental illness is blood sugar related."
"We have never seen drugs so similar to LSD and PCP as these SSRI antidepressants are."Come on, link. You know those are false statements. Any theory built on them is false, a priori. Anyone who says these things, must invoke skepticism.
(Hint: LSD and PCP are themselves totally dissimilar.)
Lar
Posted by jamestheyonger on December 10, 2005, at 14:08:53
In reply to *DON'T MISS THIS* - Listen to Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by ReadersLeaders on December 10, 2005, at 1:26:01
"Dr. Tracy as the guest:(Dr. Ann Blake Tracy, a Ph.D. in Health Sciences with the emphasis on Psychology"
This degree has nothing to do with medical science.
Posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 14:14:44
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 13:17:07
No, I did not come to believe that I was abused. The state of mind however, was one that certainly rendered me more suggestable.
For instance, under the influence of SSRI's, it was easier for me to swallow the assertion that I was chemically imballenced :)(I don't know if I could believe that when hypnotized.)
Linkadge
Posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2005, at 14:21:25
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » ReadersLeaders, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 11:22:45
Oh
My
GodI don't know whether to laugh, cry, or start writing letters.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2005, at 14:25:44
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 13:14:05
> >
> PCP is a dissociative anaesthetic.And they used to use it on 2 year olds for surgery (I won't tell you how long ago). When I am asked if I've ever had a "bad reaction" to an anesthetic, I always wonder if I should tell my docs I "did angel dust" when I was 2. :)
Nothing like waking up with your eyes bandaged, in restraints, and hallucinating. I have very vivid albeit brief snatches of odd memories from that experience.
gg
Posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 14:36:35
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 13:51:28
"Elevated serotonin is not the problem, because there is no such condition."
Elevated serotonin is implicated in a number of conditions. If you visited the Buspar website a year ago, it would have told you that anxiety is related to elevated serotonin.
There is a lot of research that shows that anxiety may actually be related to high serotonin levels. Serotonin can be anxiogenic. Hence the SSRI start up anxiety, and GI effects that don't go away for many people.
Hinting that high serotonin leads to agression is not unfounded. Many doctors have noted that artificially increasing serotonin can lead to emotional indifference. Studies on animals sometimes show similar results, ie. MAO-A knockout mice are unusally agressive.
"Serotonin is a precursor to melatonin, so how could it suppress melatonin? What is premature aging? She cannot bring these ideas into a coherent whole. "
I don't know, you tell me. Most of the SSRI's decrease melatonin concentrations. Infact, melatonin administration reduces the antidepressant effect of fluoxetine. In the night time melatonin levels are at their highest, and serotonin levels drop. SSRI's supress melatonin production via agonism at the 5-ht2a receptors.
The 2a blocking antidepressants tend to increase melatonin production.
Lowering melatonin levels will lead to premature aging.
The connection to LSD is also not unfounded. I experienced visual halucinations on SSRI's. A number of other people on this board have too.
Prozac seems to have the highest propensity to do this, since it seems to more strongly agonize the 5-ht2a receptor, via 5-h2c blockade.
She is attempting to make these connections, so that we have a basis for understaning the kind of behavior that they can produce.
I have what I call APPD, "antidepressant induced perceptual disorder"
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 14:39:30
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 14:36:35
According to the tianeptine theory of depression, there is such a thing as elevated serotonin.
Infact, tianeptine shows much more rubust effects on the HPA axis that do SSRI's. It is also more neuroprotective.
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on December 10, 2005, at 15:49:46
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 14:14:44
Funny, I never slept worth a lick until I started ssri meds. Now, never slept better in years, still going strong, after 5 years of ssri meds!
By the way, I have experience with pcp and lsd, and you sir (Lexapro) are not that! Outragous!
Posted by flmm on December 10, 2005, at 15:53:58
In reply to *DON'T MISS THIS* - Listen to Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by ReadersLeaders on December 10, 2005, at 1:26:01
By the way, if I had a dollar for every quack out there selling some crap tape or bogus cure, I would be richer than Bill Gates! Another predator praying on peoples weakness! Makes me sick!
Posted by flmm on December 10, 2005, at 16:09:13
In reply to Re: *DON'T MISS THIS* - Quack!.., posted by flmm on December 10, 2005, at 15:53:58
Just because ssri meds do not help everyone, does not mean they don't have great value. They do bring great relief to many who take them. Are they perfect, no, but what is. For me and a lot of people it is the best way to live. There is no magic bullet. The world is full success stories and meds, the rest reside on sites like this..........
Posted by 10derHeart on December 10, 2005, at 16:09:40
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » ReadersLeaders, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 11:22:45
Thanks, Lar, for the work you put into this post.
I could probably comment on each one if I thought that would be wise or in any way helpful, but it wouldn't be, so I won't. In this very bright group, it pretty much speaks for itself anyway.
But wow, numbers 10 and 15 are particularly appalling to me personally, albeit for different reasons.
Posted by jamestheyonger on December 10, 2005, at 16:20:07
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 14:36:35
> "Elevated serotonin is not the problem, because there is no such condition."
>
> Elevated serotonin is implicated in a number of conditions. If you visited the Buspar website a year ago, it would have told you that anxiety is related to elevated serotonin.
>Beware of simplistic explanations for complex processes
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 17:05:09
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » Larry Hoover, posted by 10derHeart on December 10, 2005, at 16:09:40
> Thanks, Lar, for the work you put into this post.
You're most welcome, Th. <sweeping bow>
> I could probably comment on each one if I thought that would be wise or in any way helpful, but it wouldn't be, so I won't. In this very bright group, it pretty much speaks for itself anyway.
Don't fear us. 'Kay?
> But wow, numbers 10 and 15 are particularly appalling to me personally, albeit for different reasons.
You know, when I collected these, I actually was thinking just that. That certain ones would strike different people. I didn't stop collecting because I ran out of her quotations, though. I simply stopped. And I've never yet opened one of her books.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 17:10:55
In reply to Re: What!, posted by flmm on December 10, 2005, at 15:49:46
> By the way, I have experience with pcp and lsd, and you sir (Lexapro) are not that! Outragous!
I, too, have experience with both drugs, and the allegations are preposterous. The pharmacology of the drugs are as different as chalk and cheese.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 17:32:08
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 14:36:35
> "Elevated serotonin is not the problem, because there is no such condition."
>
> Elevated serotonin is implicated in a number of conditions. If you visited the Buspar website a year ago, it would have told you that anxiety is related to elevated serotonin.Excepting serotonin syndrome, no demonstrated condition of excess serotonin is known.
Your brain just doesn't work that way, like there is a reservoir with serotonin in it, that can get over full. Or that there is too much on the loose. It is a simplistic concept, with no physiological correlate.
> There is a lot of research that shows that anxiety may actually be related to high serotonin levels.
Not high serotonin levels. High activity at specific serotonin receptors.
> Serotonin can be anxiogenic.
And anxiolytic. Depends on the receptor.
> Hence the SSRI start up anxiety,
or somnolence.
> and GI effects that don't go away for many people.
5-HT7 receptor subtype, not due to serotonin per se. Serotonin agonism by drug.
> Hinting that high serotonin leads to agression is not unfounded. Many doctors have noted that artificially increasing serotonin can lead to emotional indifference. Studies on animals sometimes show similar results, ie. MAO-A knockout mice are unusally agressive.MAO-A is not specific to serotonin. Flooding the brain with free serotonin does not mimic any known physiological process.
> "Serotonin is a precursor to melatonin, so how could it suppress melatonin? What is premature aging? She cannot bring these ideas into a coherent whole. "
>
> I don't know, you tell me.It's her theory.
> Most of the SSRI's decrease melatonin concentrations. Infact, melatonin administration reduces the antidepressant effect of fluoxetine. In the night time melatonin levels are at their highest, and serotonin levels drop. SSRI's supress melatonin production via agonism at the 5-ht2a receptors.
Then that is not a serotonin effect. It's a drug toxic effect.
> The 2a blocking antidepressants tend to increase melatonin production.
Again, conflating drug effect with endogenous agent effect.
> Lowering melatonin levels will lead to premature aging.?? What is premature aging?
> The connection to LSD is also not unfounded. I experienced visual halucinations on SSRI's.I'm sorry that happened, but LSD is quite a different drug.
> A number of other people on this board have too.
I'm sorry that's happened.
> Prozac seems to have the highest propensity to do this, since it seems to more strongly agonize the 5-ht2a receptor, via 5-h2c blockade.
I try to stay away from these mechanistic arguments, because they require that you believe the premise to believe the conclusion. Petitio principii.
> She is attempting to make these connections, so that we have a basis for understaning the kind of behavior that they can produce.She doesn't make those arguments. You did.
Here's an example I just heard her say, in that interview:
SSRIs are likely to produce a "gummy gooey glossy substance on heart valves". That sure sounds scientific. She goes on to declare that Alzheimer's is a hyperserotonergic state, and that "the same gummy gooey glossy deposits are found at autopsy". In the very next breath, she argues that SSRIs are prophecied in the Bible, and I just stopped listening at that point.
> I have what I call APPD, "antidepressant induced perceptual disorder"
>
> LinkadgeI'm sorry it's been such a hard road, link.
Please try to separate from the emotional appeals, with seemingly plausible arguments, based on zero evidence. The woman scares me.
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on December 10, 2005, at 19:18:40
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 17:32:08
And I was about to believe what she said! What about this years flu shot and the mercury? This is something I have heard from mother's of children with autism. That innoculations containsed mercury. And their children were fine until the innoculations. At this point I don't know what to believe. So is she saying that because I take luvox I am taking PCP? Boy this woman is confusing me. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 20:17:01
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on December 10, 2005, at 19:18:40
> And I was about to believe what she said! What about this years flu shot and the mercury?
There is not enough mercury in a flu shot to cause any concern. You get more mercury from your amalgam fillings every time you drink a hot beverage. If mercury worries you, take selenium. It binds mercury permanently, ending any health threat. End of story.
> This is something I have heard from mother's of children with autism. That innoculations containsed mercury. And their children were fine until the innoculations.
Coincidental correlation. The supposedly offending innoculation, the MMP, is usually given at about 18 months of age. Autism spectrum disorders are usually diagnosed no earlier than around the 24th month. It's natural for human brains to say A caused B, when in fact, B simply followed A.
If you look at massive epidemiological studies of all children in Denmark (where they record everything about everybody), there is no evidence to support a link. They stopped using Thimerosal (mercury-preservative) vaccines in 1990, and autism rates continued to climb. Abstracts, and full-text link, at bottom.
I'm sorry for anyone having to deal with developmental disorders like autism, but innoculations are not to blame. In fact, there is not one single medical advance of greater benefit to mankind than innoculation. Seen any child in an iron lung lately (polio), or dying from heart failure (rheumatic fever), or deaf or blind from meningitis? Well, you will, if people don't start innoculating their precious children again.
> At this point I don't know what to believe.
I trust the science, myself. Child mortality used to be 50%. It's not, any longer.
> So is she saying that because I take luvox I am taking PCP?
That's what she's saying you're as good as doing, yes.
> Boy this woman is confusing me.
She scares me. That anybody might listen.
> Fondly, Phillipa
Lar
Abstracts re: lack of association between thimerosal and autism
JAMA. 2003 Oct 1;290(13):1763-6.
Association between thimerosal-containing vaccine and autism.Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M.
Danish Epidemiology Science Centre, Department of Epidemiology Research, Statens Serum Institut, Copenhagen, Denmark. aii@ssi.dk
CONTEXT: Mercuric compounds are nephrotoxic and neurotoxic at high doses. Thimerosal, a preservative used widely in vaccine formulations, contains ethylmercury. Thus it has been suggested that childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccine could be causally related to neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether vaccination with a thimerosal-containing vaccine is associated with development of autism. DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: Population-based cohort study of all children born in Denmark from January 1, 1990, until December 31, 1996 (N = 467 450) comparing children vaccinated with a thimerosal-containing vaccine with children vaccinated with a thimerosal-free formulation of the same vaccine. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Rate ratio (RR) for autism and other autistic-spectrum disorders, including trend with dose of ethylmercury. RESULTS: During 2 986 654 person-years, we identified 440 autism cases and 787 cases of other autistic-spectrum disorders. The risk of autism and other autistic-spectrum disorders did not differ significantly between children vaccinated with thimerosal-containing vaccine and children vaccinated with thimerosal-free vaccine (RR, 0.85 [95% confidence interval [CI], 0.60-1.20] for autism; RR, 1.12 [95% CI, 0.88-1.43] for other autistic-spectrum disorders). Furthermore, we found no evidence of a dose-response association (increase in RR per 25 microg of ethylmercury, 0.98 [95% CI, 0.90-1.06] for autism and 1.03 [95% CI, 0.98-1.09] for other autistic-spectrum disorders). CONCLUSION: The results do not support a causal relationship between childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines and development of autistic-spectrum disorders.
Pediatrics. 2003 Sep;112(3 Pt 1):604-6.
full-text link: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/112/3/604
Thimerosal and the occurrence of autism: negative ecological evidence from Danish population-based data.Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, Thorsen P, Plesner AM, Andersen PH, Mortensen PB.
Danish Epidemiology Science Centre, Department of Epidemiology and Social Medicine, University of Aarhus, Denmark. kmm@dadlnet.dk
OBJECTIVE: It has been suggested that thimerosal, a mercury-containing preservative in vaccines, is a risk factor for the development of autism. We examined whether discontinuing the use of thimerosal-containing vaccines in Denmark led to a decrease in the incidence of autism. DESIGN: Analysis of data from the Danish Psychiatric Central Research Register recording all psychiatric admissions since 1971, and all outpatient contacts in psychiatric departments in Denmark since 1995. PATIENTS: All children between 2 and 10 years old who were diagnosed with autism during the period from 1971-2000. OUTCOME MEASURES: Annual and age-specific incidence for first day of first recorded admission with a diagnosis of autism in children between 2 and 10 years old. RESULTS: A total of 956 children with a male-to-female ratio of 3.5:1 had been diagnosed with autism during the period from 1971-2000. There was no trend toward an increase in the incidence of autism during that period when thimerosal was used in Denmark, up through 1990. From 1991 until 2000 the incidence increased and continued to rise after the removal of thimerosal from vaccines, including increases among children born after the discontinuation of thimerosal. CONCLUSIONS: The discontinuation of thimerosal-containing vaccines in Denmark in 1992 was followed by an increase in the incidence of autism. Our ecological data do not support a correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines and the incidence of autism.
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