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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by ed_uk on May 7, 2005, at 9:16:19
In reply to Re: prazepam (Centrax) Benzo other opinions? » ed_uk, posted by darkhorse on May 6, 2005, at 3:50:54
Hi DH!!
>I semi- regularly read PB and especially your posts.
LOL, you're too kind :-)
>The temptation is too strong for all of us !
I promised myself I wouldn't go on p-babble until the evening and here I am at 3pm!
>terrifying stories regarding BZ withdrawal.......
The withdrawal varies SO MUCH between different people. Your own past experience is what's relevent to you. I know you like bromazepam for anxiety!
Kind regards,
Ed.
Posted by sdb on May 11, 2005, at 6:28:12
In reply to Re: Has somebody ever taken prazepam (Centrax)? » sdb, posted by darkhorse on May 4, 2005, at 9:39:26
Hi Darkhore, hi everybody!
Darkhorse, you seem to be very experienced relating to benzodiazepines.
-I have taken prazepam 10mg up to 40mg during one week.
-It seems to be a weak antidepressent but it does only weakly diminish anxiety.
-The effect is very clear, only extremly weak sedation of prazepam after taking the pill before onset of the metabolite (only one effective metabolite, nordiazepam)
-I do not have any cognitive problemsWhat is your experience? Should I wait some weeks more because of the extrem long elimination of the metabolite? When did you feel a clear antianxiety effect?-You said it would be good for anticipatory anxiety.
Kind regards
Posted by darkhorse on May 12, 2005, at 4:48:02
In reply to Re: PRAZEPAM to darkhorse and everybody, posted by sdb on May 11, 2005, at 6:28:12
Hi sdb,
> -The effect is very clear, only extremly weak sedation of prazepam after taking the pill before onset of the metabolite (only one effective metabolite, nordiazepam)
> -I do not have any cognitive problemsYes I agree that Prazepam so not so sedating,and so less cognitive problems.
> What is your experience? Should I wait some weeks more because of the extrem long elimination of the metabolite? When did you feel a clear antianxiety effect?-You said it would be good for anticipatory anxiety.I think that 10mg a day is a low dose for severe anxiety.
10mg of Pra nearly equals 5mg Valium, 0.5mg Xanax,so it is a small dose.However bec it has a sustained action and of its long half life , if you increase the dose to say 40mg a day you may feel a very good anxioltic effect.
However, if you take this dose every day,it may build up in the body quiqly and you feel oversedated.- When I take Pra. I usually take 10-20mg a day and is enough for me.but everyone is different.
- I suggest,since you do not get anti anxiety effect,is to raise the dose slowely i.e. 20 mg a day, either once or twice a day and wait for 2-3 days.
If you can hanel it, but do not get a good result, you can still raise to 30 or 40 a day, and those doses are within the normal doses since 30mg nearly equals 15mg Valium or 1.5 mg Xanax which is OK.Best of luck, and if there is any thing you need to know about BZ, I'd be glad to give you my own experience.
DH
>
> Kind regards
>
Posted by sdb on May 13, 2005, at 15:57:40
In reply to Re: PRAZEPAM to darkhorse and everybody, posted by darkhorse on May 12, 2005, at 4:48:02
Dear darkhorse,
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I would like to know more from your great experience in benzodiazepines.
I have some more questions relating to prazepam:
-On which day after beginning the treatment did you remark the highest "anti-anxiety" effect, how much was dosage and when intake (divided/morning/evening)?
-Could you compare diazepam to prazepam relating to diminish anxiety?
-How much (mg) diazepam = prazepam (mg) to diminish anxiety?
-Which drug diazepam/prazepam needed longer time to reach anti-anxiety effect?
-To which drug did you change? Why have you stopped your prazepam treatment?
My experiences:
After day seven of prazepam (20-40mg) I have almost no sedation, no muscle weakness, no cognitive problems, minor activating effects, slight subtle anti-anxiety effects.
After day seven prazepam seems for me to be a interesting alternative to combat longterm minor anxiety/depression symptoms.
The properties are totally different to clonazepam:
More muscle weakness, more antianxiety effect when plasma max but more anxiety than normal after elimination (no effective metabolites). More lethargic feeling. More sedation (therefore perhaps more "anti-anxiety" I dont know). Clearer defined time point of maximal "anti-anxiety" effect (3-4h) after one dosage intake (because of absorption and active clonazapem itself). More concentration problems. More balancing problems, it seems to have effect on vestibulocerebellum like ethanol. I have only used clonazepam in single intakes (4mg) and (2mg) during seven days.
Interestingly after longterm clonazepam intake according to some (duke panic studies) studies dosages can be reduced, but it dont seems to be related to steady-state plasma levels. Perhaps the same could be possible with prazepam. I dont know.
Posted by sdb on May 13, 2005, at 16:28:13
In reply to Re: PRAZEPAM to darkhorse and everybody, posted by sdb on May 13, 2005, at 15:57:40
Korrigendum of some mistakes:
To which drug have you changed? Why did you stop prazepam treatment?
Post skriptum:I write very fast because I think its enough, if somebody is capable to understand and is able to exchange information (its so late, I must sleep, good night!)
Posted by darkhorse on May 18, 2005, at 6:00:29
In reply to Re: PRAZEPAM to darkhorse and everybody, posted by sdb on May 13, 2005, at 15:57:40
Hi sdb :
sorry for the delay!!
> -On which day after beginning the treatment did you remark the highest "anti-anxiety" effect, how much was dosage and when intake (divided/morning/evening)?I take Pra around 12 night. Best result is early morning.
>
> -Could you compare diazepam to prazepam relating to diminish anxiety?
Yes, Diazepam is the fastest acting, within half an hour you start to feel the effect(and sometimes with a nice buzz),but the effect diminishes after 3-6 hours, but if you take it say 4 times a day you get a stable anti anxiety effect.
Prazepam is very slow,but, for me, 10 mg effect lasts the whole day.
>
> -How much (mg) diazepam = prazepam (mg) to diminish anxiety?
Diazepam 5mg= Prazepam 10mg.
>
> -Which drug diazepam/prazepam needed longer time to reach anti-anxiety effect?
Prazepam.
>
> -To which drug did you change? Why have you stopped your prazepam treatment?I've changed to Bromazepam,because if I take higher than 20 mg of Prazepam, I get sedation and a bit depressed(same like Tranxene and diazepam,the higher the dose the more sedation),but bromazepam does not acumelate in the body and is even less sedating than prazepam(PLease read my previous message about bromazepam).
>
> The properties are totally different to clonazepam:
>
- Clonazepam is the only BZ that I can not tolerate. It has a pro-depression effect on me that leaves me blue, withdrawn and depressed.Best regards,
Darkhorse.
Posted by sdb on May 20, 2005, at 8:04:44
In reply to Re: PRAZEPAM to darkhorse and everybody » sdb, posted by darkhorse on May 18, 2005, at 6:00:29
Hi darkhorse!
Thanks very much for sharing information. I would be pleased asking you further things if necessary in bz's relating questions because of your great experience.
You once rated benzodiazepines related to sedation. Is it possible to do also a rating in cognitive impairment and diminishing anxiety?
Bye the way, clonazepam experiences seem for me the same as you have.
Many thanks
sdb
Posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 11:18:31
In reply to Bz's questions / rating / sharing of experience, posted by sdb on May 20, 2005, at 8:04:44
Hi Darkhorse, hi everybody!
I have pretty good stabilizing effects with prazepam. It works more subtle and as you said 11 pm once daily intake. It's somehow activating but also makes you a bit tired. I think its an underestimated long-acting bz with interesting pharmacokinetics. I have taken it for eight days and stopped it immediately after testing without any problems.
You prefer Bromazepam.
Is it possible to thake Bromazepam possibly once a day, what is your experience?
My goal is to treat bp (with OCD, Anxiety and SP in bad mood swings) with longer acting bz's instead of not yet success with mood-stabilizers.
You once rated ketazolam as very sedating, is it true? Are there some other long-acting bz's I am possibly not aware?
I am not interested in short-acting bz's like alprazolam.
Thanks for sharing experience.
Regards
sdb
Posted by chemist on May 22, 2005, at 12:24:13
In reply to Bzs questions Bromazepamto Darkhorse and everybody, posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 11:18:31
hello there, chemist here...i assume you are not in the u.s. given the meds you note...the benzodiazepine derivative that came to mind - although i am uncertain if it is marketed and where - is a slight (very slight) variation on the prazepam theme: the phenyl in the 5-position off the 7-membered ring in prazepam is devoid of any ring substituents; if one fluorinates the phenyl moiety in question in the 2-position, one has flutoprazepam...long half-life, 2 or 3 (??) active metabolites...in any event, you might see if it is available in your area....all the best, chemist
> Hi Darkhorse, hi everybody!
>
> I have pretty good stabilizing effects with prazepam. It works more subtle and as you said 11 pm once daily intake. It's somehow activating but also makes you a bit tired. I think its an underestimated long-acting bz with interesting pharmacokinetics. I have taken it for eight days and stopped it immediately after testing without any problems.
>
> You prefer Bromazepam.
>
> Is it possible to thake Bromazepam possibly once a day, what is your experience?
>
> My goal is to treat bp (with OCD, Anxiety and SP in bad mood swings) with longer acting bz's instead of not yet success with mood-stabilizers.
>
> You once rated ketazolam as very sedating, is it true? Are there some other long-acting bz's I am possibly not aware?
>
> I am not interested in short-acting bz's like alprazolam.
>
> Thanks for sharing experience.
>
> Regards
>
> sdb
Posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 14:11:32
In reply to a quick one.... » sdb, posted by chemist on May 22, 2005, at 12:24:13
Thanks for the information,
I did not know a thing before that flutoprazepam exists after consulting information of bz, derivates, chemistry and their metabolites.
Even prazepam is marketed in not many countries in spite I think it could be a helpful long half-life bz (Xaxax XR is a bad example how to make a lot of money without doing more needed research)By the way, is there any standart book of bz chemistry?
Look at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050510/msgs/497673.html
Regards
sdb
Posted by chemist on May 23, 2005, at 8:53:58
In reply to Re: a quick one...., posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 14:11:32
> Thanks for the information,
>
> I did not know a thing before that flutoprazepam exists after consulting information of bz, derivates, chemistry and their metabolites.
> Even prazepam is marketed in not many countries in spite I think it could be a helpful long half-life bz (Xaxax XR is a bad example how to make a lot of money without doing more needed research)
>
> By the way, is there any standart book of bz chemistry?
>
> Look at:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050510/msgs/497673.html
>
> Regards
>
> sdbhello there again....i do not use any text for benzo/related, and do not know if one or more are in print that are worth the money, especially given the (key) AChBP crystal structure publication as of late...i have over 70 pubs (j. org.. chem. and j. med. chem., almost all in those journals), anything by sternbach is there, and that's fine for me...i just do not know and sternbach's synth pubs are quite nice....sorry about that...if it makes you feel any better, the pharma people i know or have worked with in the past or present do the m.s. bit, i say give it a try before spending the money!!!.......all the best, chemist
Posted by darkhorse on May 23, 2005, at 9:22:37
In reply to Bzs questions Bromazepamto Darkhorse and everybody, posted by sdb on May 22, 2005, at 11:18:31
> Hi sdb,
>
> I have pretty good stabilizing effects with prazepam. It works more subtle and as you said 11 pm once daily intake. It's somehow activating but also makes you a bit tired. I think its an underestimated long-acting bz with interesting pharmacokinetics. I have taken it for eight days and stopped it immediately after testing without any problems.I can not agree more about all your statement!
>
> You prefer Bromazepam.
>
> Is it possible to thake Bromazepam possibly once a day, what is your experience?Yes,bromazepam is more of a longer acting BZ. It lasts 19+ hours for a 3mg.I've tried 6mg once a day in the morning and it lasted until next day.No feelings of any withdrawal at all.
You see, the higher the dose, the longer it stays in the body.But, like all other long acting BZ some people prefer to take them in divided doses twice or 3 times a day.
Personally, I prefer bromazepam because it is the least sedating (except Clobazam which did not fit my body chemistry),and that once you take before bedtime for a few days, you get a total tolerance of its very mild sedation,and then can be taken in the morninig.
If you do not suffer from chronic insomnia, to me bromazepam is the best daytime anti-anxiety medication (tiny cognitive problems,no sedation and drug accumilation(tiredness) (e.g.diazepam,clorazepate,prazepam,ketazolam) activation, mood-elevating proporties,no depression(Clonazepam),least amnesia(e.g. Ativan/Temesta), no space-out feelings (Xanax),no severe withdrawal effect (comparable to diazepam and prazepam)
Maybe I'm biased a bit....but I do not know... after trying those extremley famous BZ (e.g. Clonazepam,alprazolam,diazepam..etc)I reached a conclusion that famous does not mean better!!!
same as AD's.>
> You once rated ketazolam as very sedating, is it true? Are there some other long-acting bz's I am possibly not aware?I did not try it for long and maybe the fluoxetine I was taking at the time intensfied the effect.Also I took 30 mg a day which is not a very low BZ.It was not a bad one,but did not give it a long trial and can not remember why.
In my limited knowledge I will try to list you the longet to the shortest acting BZ which I've tried , so here goes nothing !!:
1.Prazepam,Diazepam,Ketazolam,Clorazepate and Chlordiazepoxide are the longest acting.(50-200hours)2.- Bromazepam,Clonazepam,Clobazam,Flunitrazepam and Nitrazepam are also long acting - medium acting (20-40hours).
3- Delorazepam,Cloxazolam,Lormetazepam and Tetrazepam are medium acting (13-15 hours)
Short acting :
4- Lorazepam (12 hous)
5- Cinloazepam (9 hours)
6- Oxazepam and Alprazolam (6-8 hours)
7- Tofisopam,Bentazepam and Brotizolam (5 hours)
8- Zopiclone ( 4hours)
9- Triazolam and Zolpidem (3 hours).* Hours are approximate,and all this info is based mainly on my trials.....
>
> Thanks for sharing experience.THANK YOU for your kindness...
>
> Regards
>
Darkhorse.
Posted by SLS on May 23, 2005, at 10:09:20
In reply to Re: Has somebody ever taken prazepam (Centrax)? » sdb, posted by darkhorse on May 4, 2005, at 9:39:26
Hi.
It sounds like prazepam might be an effective drug to cross-over to from other BZDs when one is looking to discontinue them - perhaps more effective than diazepam.
Any thoughts?
- Scott
Posted by sdb on May 23, 2005, at 13:08:51
In reply to Re: Has somebody ever taken prazepam (Centrax)?, posted by SLS on May 23, 2005, at 10:09:20
Hi!
To SLS: I would say prazepam could be useful to stop for example alprazolam, but you would have them take first togheter because of very long onset of steady-state levels of active metabolite nordiazepam and then stop prazepam slowly. There are some interesting articles in pubmed of prazepam pharmacokinetics pharmacology.
To DARKHORSE: Did you ever have tolerance to benzos for example prazepam, bromazepam?
Regardssdb
Posted by sdb on May 23, 2005, at 20:06:53
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) to DARKHORSE and SLS, posted by sdb on May 23, 2005, at 13:08:51
Hi darkhorse!
Sorry to interrupt you but it is very useful to hear to someone experienced in bz's here.
One more question after (tolerance to bz's above all prazepam, bromazepam):
How would you rate bz's in cognitive impairment e.g. memorizing things, or attention?-Especially prazepam and bromazepam compared to others e.g. diazepam?
Kind regards
sdb
Posted by darkhorse on May 24, 2005, at 3:51:02
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) to DARKHORSE and SLS, posted by sdb on May 23, 2005, at 13:08:51
> Hi!
>
.
>
> To DARKHORSE: Did you ever have tolerance to benzos for example prazepam, bromazepam?I never had a tolerance with BZ anti- anxiety effects.But tolerance to their hypnotic effects, yes.
The only BZ that I had tolerance with was Xanax.
I used to have in the past good anti- anxiety effect from 0.5 3 times a day.
Recently I tried it a gain and it seemed that I had to take it more frequently to maintain the effect, like 0.5 mg 5 times a day, so I stopped of fear of dependence.Once I stayed for months on 1mg twice a day of Lorazepam (Temesta/Ativan) and never felt the need to escalate the dose.
In fact when I experimented with more for a couple of days I felt worse.Same with Prazepam,diazepam,bromazepam ..etc. For me, it seems that I have a dosage that is just perfect,if decreases it gives this uneasy sedated can't- think feeling, and if increased it gives this bad dream-like state with some feelings of aggression,rudness and tiredness.
Sorry for the long talk!
Best regards,
Darkhorse.
>
>
> Regards
>
> sdb
Posted by darkhorse on May 24, 2005, at 4:32:09
In reply to prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE, posted by sdb on May 23, 2005, at 20:06:53
> Hi Sdb
> How would you rate bz's in cognitive impairment e.g. memorizing things, or attention?-Especially prazepam and bromazepam compared to others e.g. diazepam?This is a difficult question.
IMO, I think the relation between sedation and cognitive impairment is very weak.e.g I rate Lorazepam as not so sedating i.e. I have good concentration and can function very well.However, when I stop it, I'm not able to recall some things in details.
On the other hand a more sedating compound such as Clonazepam, when I took it I could not concentrate or do any work, felt blue and very tired, but when I stopped and all those nasty effects vanished, it seemed I was able to remember events (marginally) more than lorazepam.
Another better example is Clobazam (Frisum) :
Although it is the only BZ that is totally devoid of any sedation.when I took it, I "felt" like I'm functioning well and no tiredness at all (but due to its anxiety/aggression/unease effect on me I stopped).
However, when I stopped, I could not rcall very much how nasty I was!So, going back to your question:
1- in terms of "memorizing aspects" I think that all BZ tend to have this amnestic effects regardless of their sedation, but I rate Lorazepam,Cloxazolam Zolpidem and Lormetazepam as the strongest,and Chlordiazepoxide,Bentazepam,Bromazepam and Prazepam as the least amnestic.
2- In terms of " attention" I think that sedation here plays the major part : the more sedating, the more difficult to concentrate and do things.
Just a humble opinion!!
>
> Kind regards
>
>Darkhorse
>
Posted by darkhorse on May 24, 2005, at 5:25:26
In reply to Re: Has somebody ever taken prazepam (Centrax)?, posted by SLS on May 23, 2005, at 10:09:20
> Hi.
>
> It sounds like prazepam might be an effective drug to cross-over to from other BZDs when one is looking to discontinue them - perhaps more effective than diazepam.
>
> Any thoughts?Hello Scott :
- I think the reason why diazepam is the "gold standard" to dicontinue, because it is available all over the world (unlike the other similar long-acting ones),commonly prescribed and most physicians are familiar with it,and therefore it was naturally chosen.
- However compounds that have the same long half- life but even less potent and less sedative might be another very good option e.g. (chlordiazepoxide and Prazepam),but I do not think it would be a *better* opion.More or less the same.
- I tapered after long use of Lorazepam, with bromazepam,and even though it was not an easy ride,it worked,so I think the bottom line is to substitute the short acting ones with longer acting ones and decrease very slowly and according to how one's feel.
Best wishes,
Darkhorse.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Posted by ed_uk on May 24, 2005, at 14:00:41
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE, posted by darkhorse on May 24, 2005, at 4:32:09
Hi DH!
I'd like to try bromazepam!
Kind regards,
Ed.PS. It's GOOD to see you posting again, I always read your posts :-D
Posted by sdb on May 24, 2005, at 18:45:30
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE » darkhorse, posted by ed_uk on May 24, 2005, at 14:00:41
Yes, its good to have you here darkhorse and ed_uk.
I would be pleased to ask some more questions related to bromazepam and prazepam experience some days later (hard working).
Kind regards
Posted by darkhorse on May 25, 2005, at 4:12:05
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE » darkhorse, posted by ed_uk on May 24, 2005, at 14:00:41
> Hi ED:
>
It's GOOD to see you posting again, I always read your posts :-DSame here. I ALWAYS read your exremely useful messages.
You are such an informative, modest and sweet soul>
All the best with your exams!
Darkhorse
P.S. I try very hard not to write messages too much, as you know it is so addictive (more than Ativan!! just kidding),but temptation is so powerful!
Posted by darkhorse on May 25, 2005, at 4:16:14
In reply to prazepam, bromazepam to darkhorse, ed_uk, posted by sdb on May 24, 2005, at 18:45:30
Hello Sdb,
> Yes, its good to have you here darkhorse and ed_uk.
It is my pleasure to share with you our experiences.
Wishing you all the best with your work.
Darkhorse.
>
> Kind regards
Posted by ed_uk on May 25, 2005, at 7:57:02
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE » ed_uk, posted by darkhorse on May 25, 2005, at 4:12:05
Hi DH!
>All the best with your exams!
Thank you :-)
Kind regards,
Ed.
Posted by sdb on May 27, 2005, at 12:13:01
In reply to Re: prazepam, bromazepam to darkhorse, ed_uk » sdb, posted by darkhorse on May 25, 2005, at 4:16:14
Hi everbody, darkehorse, ed_uk,
The prazepam is pretty good but it has a long time of onset. After five days I felt the drug.
Clonazepam was good also in diminish panic, ocd in hypomanic phasis. The only disadvantage was some lethargic feelings and total sexual disfunction after approx. 3 days (first interestingly even increased sexual function). This bad sideeffects could diminsh with time according to studies so I cannot give an appropriate experience, because I have only taken it nine days constantly.-Did you also remark a long time of onset of the prazepem?
-How would you rate bromazepam/prazepam/clonazepam
related to sexual and cognitive (memorizing things) abilities?I am testing prazepam that time but I will perhaps give a try to bromazepam and and least buprenorphine (the only thing I would take in this substance class). Mood-stabilizers did nothing for me but perhaps I have taken the wrong combinations.A pdoc suggested lamical-seroquel, said it would be standart-therapie (Personally I dont like words like standart sometimes).
I have never taken non reversibel MAO's (poorly, no more available in my country). This could be an option after worst experiences and memorized OCD because of the SSRI's.
Thank for sharing experience.
Best wishes
sdb
Posted by ed_uk on May 27, 2005, at 12:57:19
In reply to Re: prazepam (centrax) one more please to DARKHORSE » ed_uk, posted by darkhorse on May 25, 2005, at 4:12:05
>You are such an informative, modest and sweet soul.......
That was such a nice thing to say :-) You are too kind lol :-)
Warm regards,
Ed.
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