![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8490 to 8514 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:07:27
In reply to ADD, posted by Rhonda Jo on April 15, 2005, at 14:29:19
So where is the site for the ADD and Effexor?? My daughter (now 27) was diagnosed when in 3rd grade - at my suggestion - since she exhibited signs of the symptoms. Now my counselor thinks that I may also have this, since I'm so easily destracted and perhaps I need meds for that and not needing anti-depressents. (I just finished weaning off Effexor and glad to be rid of all the side-effects)
winddancer
Posted by Phillipa on April 16, 2005, at 23:12:07
In reply to Re: ADD » Rhonda Jo, posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:07:27
Welcome back winddancer! Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:25:01
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? » Priss, posted by Jen2 on April 16, 2005, at 16:25:18
I have been experiencing some other things that I now think are a result of the Effexor experience, either directly or indirectly. I am anemic, perhaps because I was taking pain pills (Aspirin, Ibuprophen, etc)to combat the headaches and body ache caused by the medicine. I was so constipated. I couldn't sleep deeply (I'm still working on having a good nights sleep, without the help of Ambian. My body is not processing calcium and absorbing it in my bones - that and hi oxalates are the ingredients for kidney stones. With the lack of sleep - everything gets out of whack!! My hormone levels are low and for some reason I am experiencing intense joint and muscle pain in every area of my body.
I'm seeing an alternative doctor - an Internist MD,who has evidence from his patients that when he thoroughly evaluates a person and corrects inbalances in their bio-chemistry that they no longer suffer from much depression and panic attacks and remain overall more healthy and for women less negative sideeffects of being post menopausal. He recommends natural only hormone replacement after analyzing what each individual needs to balance it out - from compounding pharmacies so that the dose is very individualized. It all makes good sense to me since I didn't experience my first episode of depression until I was going through menopause. Main stream MD's don't seem to go for evaluating a person's chemical make-up and hormone levels, before prescribing some pretty powerful stuff - and sometimes it would seem that they prescribe it "by the seat of their pants" depending on which pharmaceautical company courted them last and put their "spin" on the assumption that only medicine can correct a problem. Now don't get me wrong! I'm all for meds - but can't we first take a look at our "healthy or not" choices for nutrition and lifestyle before prescribing a drug that can potentially be dangerous. Of course there is not as much money kickbacks from prescribing good nutrition, personal evaluation of each individual before putting them on powerful drugs, as there is with the prescription drug companies.
winddancer
Posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:28:07
In reply to Re: ADD » winddancer, posted by Phillipa on April 16, 2005, at 23:12:07
Thanks, Phillipa,
I've been so busy this week getting extensive evaluations of my challenging medical irregularities that I haven't had time to post. I've been wondering how you're doing.
winddancer
Posted by BarbaraD on April 17, 2005, at 8:28:02
In reply to Re: Effexor = No sleep » BarbaraD, posted by Colleen D. on April 16, 2005, at 14:26:25
Thankyou Colleen for your encouraging input. I have stopped taking the sleeping med Temazepan. Made me too groggy when I woke up. Figured the dose was mild enough to discontinue without experiencing withdrawals. I feel better without it and will just be patient. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I'll sleep better someday when menopause is over. In the meantime, I'll just take a nap when I can during the day. I'll have to work on not allowing the weird dreams to carry over into the daylight hours. One more thing... I find that I have an increasing inability to tolerate the sun/heat. I did a little yardwork yesterday and woke up with a nasty headache this morning which is typical for me. Have you noticed that your dehydration has decreased over time as well?
Posted by Keemo on April 17, 2005, at 15:25:35
In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Janie, posted by Lynn V on March 17, 2001, at 22:51:46
> Leo and All
> > I am now into my 3-4 week of weaning off the Effexor XR,
>
> I am very interested in feedback on joint pain, mentioned above. I have been on aspirin for many years for arthritis. The joint pain became worse while I was taking Effexor, and I have recently been placed on Celebrex to control my arthritis. Have others experienced complications involving the joints? I did not make the connection until reading this post.
>
>
> My daughter (18yo)had been on 300mg for 2 years. I am weaning her off slowly and she is now down to 150mg. She has muscle and joint pain. It is so bad she has to sleep on 3 layers of feather mattress covers. She never had this AT ALL until Effexor XR. Since she has been weaning down it is starting to get a little better. She can not do very much. She had to take her GED and she can't work. She recently has started aquatherapy to get some strength back. I TOTALLY blame Effexor XR for ruining my daugters life. We thought is was so wonderful in the beginning to. Then her health deteriorated. I made the connection only by accident. The thought of suing has crossed my mind.
>
> Weaning so far is ok I guess. Lots of stomach problems. She is having to take Compazine for severe nausea. I have to force her to eat most of the time. She has lost 35 lbs. in 6 weeks.
>I am on day 6 of my weaning process. The Dr. cut my 150mg dose of Effexor XR down to 75mg Mentally I feel OK but physically is another story. I have been lightheaded, I have pressure in my sinuses that feels like my nose is going to bleed, headaches, and since yesterday I have excruciating lower back pain. I can barely stand up when it's at it's worst. I have been taking 2 extra-strengh Robaxacet to take the edge off. I have a family and a house to take care of.
I thought I was all in my head until I read some of these posts. I knew I had not injured my back and couldn't understand why I was in so much pain. How can something that is supposed to help you cause so much agony when you want to stop it? And why do the Dr's tell you that it is not addicting when your body goes through hell trying to purge it? Even doing it slowly hurts. I just don't get it.
I will not give up though, I will keep on weaning until this poison is out of my body. I am not saying to not try it if you need to, because it did work for me but if I knew how hard it would be to come off of I would have thought twice.
I'm so thankful for this site and the people who share here, now I know it's not just my imagination, this is really happening to my body. And I can't wait for it to be over. Has anyone succesfully, endured this to the end? And how long did it take? Please reply.
"aching for an answer"
Posted by Jen2 on April 17, 2005, at 19:50:37
In reply to Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » Jen2, posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:25:01
Winddancer,
I would love to see someone like your Internist. I believe strongly that western medicine does more harm than good, and that more holistic approaches like the one you've found make much more sense, both physically, emotionally, and spiritually.
Are you in Canada? Where does one find an Internist such as you describe?
Jen
Posted by Colleen D. on April 17, 2005, at 20:59:06
In reply to Re: Effexor = No sleep » Colleen D., posted by BarbaraD on April 17, 2005, at 8:28:02
and I continue to be dehydrated if I'm not strict about drinking as much water as possible during the day. I take stool softener as well as needed and my sinuses are drier than normal. My doc gave me Nasonex to help and I have used an OTC moisturizing nasal spray to keep my nose comfy. I am perimenopausal so the hottness probably has something to do with hormones as well. Good luck!
Colleen
Posted by Corafree on April 17, 2005, at 21:28:39
In reply to Sweating and/or heat intolerance is a common SE... » BarbaraD, posted by Colleen D. on April 17, 2005, at 20:59:06
Since discontinuing Eff-XR (month or two now ?), have lots of hot-flash type sweats. It could be a coincidence, since am 53, but onset was @ exact same time of discontinuing the Eff-XR. I just don't know for sure. I am seeing a GYN soon so will bring it up. I've had HRT in the form of patches since TAH-BSO in 1992. I wasn't and am still not sure if my body has or will go through 'another', 'but we think you have organs' menopause. cf
Posted by winddancer on April 17, 2005, at 22:20:20
In reply to Re: 4 Weeks off Effexor » Leo, posted by Janie on March 15, 2001, at 11:11:08
I am glad that someone else mentioned joint pain. I too have been experiencing excruciating joint pain. Also all over muscle pain - If any of you have been taking aspirin or other NSAID's for the pain and are fatigued - you might want to have your dr. do a check for anemia - I did and my iron level is very low - I'm having a colonoscopy this week to see if my gut is bleeding from anything else now that I stopped the aspirin. It didn't take long to get anemic - some of the problem may be not eating as healthy a diet as I should since I feel so lousy with all the pain that I don't spend much time preparing meals; and living alone, no one else around to cook and feed me.
I also had my hormones checked since 4 months ago I stopped the Primpro HRT I had taken for about 9 years. So in addition to being anemic, my hormone levels are very low, so I'm now getting iron/B12 shots and taking DHEA which is a precursor for hormones. My doctors, both main-stream and alternative are hoping to figure out if my body/joint/muscle ache can be from anemia and/or low hormone levels. The pdr and my MD just don't seem to want to consider that any of this can be the result of taking the Effexor - but I'm hoping to educate them. They seem unwilling to believe anything I'm experiencing can be due to the drug, since the pharmaceutical co. didn't list it as a side-effect. Yikes!! this is scary.
Also someone mentioned using calcium to help with the restless legs - but you might want to have your calcium/oxalate levels checked in blood and urine. I have learned that I have high Ca and Ox - the precurser to kidney stones -so I certainly don't need to be adding more calcium to my diet.
I mentioned in another post about finding a dr. who studies and analyzes people's biochemistry processes in order to individualize what medications and supplements are optimum. Every person doesn't need the same supplements. This dr. is quite impressive but is not covered as a preferred provider and the procedures he uses are not main-stream enough to have insurance pay much of it so it's all out-of-pocket. I'll just have to see what I think I can afford.
winddancer
Posted by winddancer on April 17, 2005, at 22:37:19
In reply to Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » winddancer, posted by Jen2 on April 17, 2005, at 19:50:37
I'm in the Puget Sound area in the U.S. Here is the URL for the clinic and the doctor in Federal Way:
www.paracelsusclinic.com
http://www.dormanpub.com/index.htm
In addition to the all-over joint and muscle pain I have lots of low back pain which all my doctors and therapists beleive to be due to sacroiliac joint misallignment and some consequential deterioration of discs in my lower spine and mid-spine. This doctor is only one of 4-5 in the country who performs a special kind of treatment for this sacrum pain - using injections into the ligaments around the SI joint. This is not cheap and it is not usually covered by insurance so I'm not sure I will be able to afford to do it. I'm going to wait until I'm completely weaned off Effexor for a few months and wait until my anemia is alliviated and my hormones are balanced out, and then see how much pain endures.
So - if this dr is too far away for you, I'm sure his clinic would share with you the name of someone else closer to you who follows this line of evaluation and healing. Good luck. Where in Canada are you located??
winddancer
Posted by Keemo on April 18, 2005, at 12:35:00
In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain, posted by Keemo on April 17, 2005, at 15:25:35
Well, day 7 and still have headaches,excruciating lower back pain and I'm tired as all get out.
I noticed that some of you wrote about "hot flashes and sweats" I started getting the hot flashes, night sweats and a weird red blotches all over my neck and chest, about a year after starting Effexor XR. And I was 35 then. I had my hormones checked thinking I was starting early menopause (which runs in my family) but my hormones were fine.
So I think the flashes etc. are another side affect of the drug. I still get them periodically but not as often anymore. The red blotchy deal is a nuisance I could do without though.
Posted by Colleen D. on April 18, 2005, at 13:13:55
In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain, posted by Keemo on April 17, 2005, at 15:25:35
I find this discussion very interesting about joint pain being a side effect of taking and/or discontinuing Effexor. Effexor is actually often prescribed for people with chronic joint pain as in fibromyalgia. I have chronic joint pain and that is one of the reasons my doc decided on prescribing Effexor for me. It has done miracles for my joint pain. At one time I saw a chiropractor weekly to get some relief from it, but once I began taking Effexor I no longer needed that kind of treatment.
Colleen
Posted by winddancer on April 18, 2005, at 15:02:04
In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Keemo, posted by Colleen D. on April 18, 2005, at 13:13:55
Clearly this drug can cause a lot of odd symptoms - I have never had such joint pain as I have now. It's hard to be sure just what causes what. My pdoc seemed to dismiss my joint pain being related since she said that Effexor is sometimes used for pain control as is Neurontin which I was taking for awhile but it's just too odd that I didn't have this total body joint and muscle pain prior to the Effexor. I too am seeing a chiropractor for my low back pain; and a physical therapist; and I had an MRI and will be seeing an orthopedic spine specialist for his view of the situation; so far everyone seems to agree that my low back pain is a clear case of sacroiliac joint misalignment and some disintegration of some spinal discs in that area as a result. I also stopped HRT about 5 months ago and my hormones are low; so it will be interesting to see when I get my hormones balanced out and am completely off the Effexor for a couple months, if I still suffer from the same pains. If the pain goes away - I don't think I'll be too interested in taking Effexor again to check it out. Somehow I believe that my being on Effexor, xanax, Neurontin, Clonapin, etc had either an indirect or direct connection to all the pain I'm suffering from.
It's too bad that there's not enough money in it to do double blind studies with natural remedies, like nutrition support, but the only way big research studies get done is if the potential result is that an expensive drug can be marketed to absorb the cost.
It really is interesting that Effexor gets rid of pain for some and causes pain for others. Clearly it is a tricky drug to anticipate results for different individuals. I'd be interested to see more details about how the drug was evaluated - on the other hand I don't really want to spend that much time reading.
winddancer
Posted by Elroy on April 18, 2005, at 16:51:16
In reply to Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » Jen2, posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:25:01
Excellent posting.
I too have wondered about this.
Why prescribe powerful SSRI medications - which create the artifical effect of increasing serotonin levels - when an individual's problem might be a lack of dopamine and NOT serotonin.. or maybe it's a lack of GABA neurotransmitters (especially if it is an anxiety problem instead of a depression problem)???
Just over the last couple of days I was reading through the following links (which was why I still happened to have them handy)...
http://www.neuroreplete.com/default.htm
http://www.neuroreplete.com/bal.htmAlso:
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/dep5-1.htm
I would also check out the book on brain neurotransmitters by a Dr. Eric Braverman (I can't recall the actual title right now).
Have you checked out the alternatives board?
I would search for postings by a Larry Hoover. He seems to be an amazing source of information.
I wish you good results with your alternative doctor.
Would like to find someone like him (or Dr. Braverman) who practices in the NE Ohio area!X
X
X
X
> I have been experiencing some other things that I now think are a result of the Effexor experience, either directly or indirectly. I am anemic, perhaps because I was taking pain pills (Aspirin, Ibuprophen, etc)to combat the headaches and body ache caused by the medicine. I was so constipated. I couldn't sleep deeply (I'm still working on having a good nights sleep, without the help of Ambian. My body is not processing calcium and absorbing it in my bones - that and hi oxalates are the ingredients for kidney stones. With the lack of sleep - everything gets out of whack!! My hormone levels are low and for some reason I am experiencing intense joint and muscle pain in every area of my body.
>
> I'm seeing an alternative doctor - an Internist MD,who has evidence from his patients that when he thoroughly evaluates a person and corrects inbalances in their bio-chemistry that they no longer suffer from much depression and panic attacks and remain overall more healthy and for women less negative sideeffects of being post menopausal. He recommends natural only hormone replacement after analyzing what each individual needs to balance it out - from compounding pharmacies so that the dose is very individualized. It all makes good sense to me since I didn't experience my first episode of depression until I was going through menopause. Main stream MD's don't seem to go for evaluating a person's chemical make-up and hormone levels, before prescribing some pretty powerful stuff - and sometimes it would seem that they prescribe it "by the seat of their pants" depending on which pharmaceautical company courted them last and put their "spin" on the assumption that only medicine can correct a problem. Now don't get me wrong! I'm all for meds - but can't we first take a look at our "healthy or not" choices for nutrition and lifestyle before prescribing a drug that can potentially be dangerous. Of course there is not as much money kickbacks from prescribing good nutrition, personal evaluation of each individual before putting them on powerful drugs, as there is with the prescription drug companies.
>
> winddancer
>
>
Posted by Corafree on April 18, 2005, at 21:26:19
In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Colleen D., posted by winddancer on April 18, 2005, at 15:02:04
Hi Windancer. Sorry you are having joint pain. I take Voltaren 2x a day and Flexeril 3x a day. They have helped tremendously. Also, I drink a lot of water.
I'm looking into a natural HRT. Am planning to call a large nutrition store in my city where my PCP says there is a woman that is very knowledgeable about all the different varieties out there. There are sooo many, and I just wonder if you may know of any particular brands w/ the herbs and vites, well some just have the herbs, and some just the vites, and some are all alone, like a bottle of black cohosh. I need to find one where these are meshed together in one tab! I hate having a million alternative med bottles sitting in my kitchen, but more importantly, maybe would be a better way to get right amounts of ingredients. So, have you, or anyone heard of any in particular. I've just read a little book and it is 'plugging' Estro-Logic. Tks cf
Posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2005, at 21:51:43
In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » winddancer, posted by Corafree on April 18, 2005, at 21:26:19
Corafree, My OBGYN had a formulary drug store mix up a cream that was in a syringe when I was going through menopause. Insurance wouldn't cover it but it's the completely natural hormones. You can apply it once a day or twice a day. You just rub it in. i stopped this summer as I had used them for about 3 yrs, and the doctor and pharmacist said that was long enough. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Corafree on April 19, 2005, at 22:50:04
In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain, posted by Keemo on April 18, 2005, at 12:35:00
This is so NOT weird. I posted about the hot flashes type sweating! I also have a red blotchy area on my leg. Been off Eff-XR at least month to month and a half. I'm having my hormones checked too! Oh dear; well thinking was correct decision, discontinuing it. best wishes cf
Posted by Corafree on April 19, 2005, at 22:56:31
In reply to Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » winddancer, posted by Elroy on April 18, 2005, at 16:51:16
Winddancer - I am on mainstream HRT. I use Vivelle patches. Saw my PCP yesterday and showed him the alternatives black cohosh, clover, etc. etc. and he said he couldn't name one, but thought would be good direction. Can you name one? Would certainly be appreciated. I cannot afford to go to a naturopath. Instead, I find myself standing in front of a HRT counter with 50 different blends and names. Any help would really HELP. TKS cf
Posted by Corafree on April 19, 2005, at 23:02:58
In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Corafree, posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2005, at 21:51:43
My OB used to have a place that mixed up 'patient particular' recipes too, but they were mixing varying amounts of estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, estradiol.
Maybe that same pharmacy mixes a natural blend like you have suggested.
I will ask him; but affording it may be a horse of a different color!
Thanks! cf
Posted by helpless51 on April 19, 2005, at 23:20:35
In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Colleen D., posted by winddancer on April 18, 2005, at 15:02:04
I wondered ,,,,,after only 5 days of taking the effexor .....i found i could barely walk in the store my leg and knee hurt so bad ......does anyone know if that goes away aftr awhile?
Posted by winddancer on April 19, 2005, at 23:47:19
In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » winddancer, posted by Corafree on April 18, 2005, at 21:26:19
Hi Corafree, Elroy, and everyone else,
I’m not familiar with the 2 drugs you mention – Voltaren 2x a day and Flexeril 3x a day - did you get a prescription for them??
My opinion about all this is that – even if it’s expensive – I/we should have a doctor or whoever willing to do a blood or saliva test to determine what hormones our body is making on its own and what it is missing and then have the doc prescribe a natural bio-identical hormone made up at a compounding pharmacy that has just what YOUR body needs. Hormones are pretty powerful things and it could be just as damaging and inappropriate to take more than you need as it would be to allow yourself to suffer with low hormone levels. I think Phillipa referred to having a cream made up especially for her own specific metabolism.
As far as other nutritional supplements go – I hope to follow the same plan – find out what my body has or manufactures on its own with a good diet and supplement with what’s missing. I learned the hard way that taking Calcium supplements since I was post-menopausal and Osteoporetic was not a good idea FOR ME and resulted in kidney stones – twice. Only recently am I being evaluated by a Nephrologist doctor who was surprised that after the first stone, I was not advised by my MD or the Urologist who did the surgery, that I should avoid Calcium supplements and Hi-oxalate foods - even though I asked – and my urinalysis indicated hi Ca and Oxalates - go figure?Now I’m seeing an Internest MD who offers some very alternate options for pain management and biochemical optimizing. He suggests that I can promote changes in my biochemistry with diet and supplements whereby the excess Ca and Oxalate will be better dissolved, thus avoiding kidney stones and allowing the bones to absorb Ca and collegen (as important or more important than Ca), thus reversing osteoporesis.
MD’s, though very smart about lots of stuff, tend not to be trained in specific nutritional metabolic needs and natural means of optimising health – too bad – since most people usually think of their MD’s as “optimal health doctors” but MD’s are only trained to think of how our ailments can be treated with MEDicines. On the other hand, Naturopaths, Homeopaths and other alternative practitioners are better trained and knowledgeable in these areas. More and more MD’s are beginning to respect their specialized expertise. And, at least in my state, are now covered by BC/BS just like MD's.I believe that there are some excellent companies supplying nutritional supplements. Many are multilevel marketed, which does not diminish their product quality, and often enhances it. I personally tend to think that whole food supplements will be by far the best choice, since whole food is really “more than the sum of its parts” as the nutrients in whole foods operate synergistically with each other and have traces of necessary things that vitamins miss. The companies that I have learned about and believe are well researched are Wholefood Farmacy, Awarenesslife, Nikken, Juice Plus+, Mannetech, and Melaleuca (ask Phillipa about this one). Here are a some websites:
www.colorful.wholefoodfarmacy.com
[THE GREAT AMERICAN WHOLE FOOD FARMACY - Convenient Organic Raw Whole Food]
I keep some of these products in my car for a quick and very healthy snack when I’m late for or missing a meal – better than those sweet power bars and very economical.http://www.wendyjo.awarenesslife.com/
Nikken: www.5pillars.com/833692900;
you can also go to www.nikken.com They have some amazing research and not many people know that they have excellent nutritional supplements – (they are known for their high quality magnet therapy)
Check this out too.
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/oct2000_report_lactoferrin.htmlwinddancer
Posted by winddancer on April 19, 2005, at 23:54:39
In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain, posted by helpless51 on April 19, 2005, at 23:20:35
Geez, the more I read, the more I'm convinced that there is some connection with joint pain and Effexor - there are just too many people finding this pain associated with weaning off the drug. I hope the pharmaceutical company becomes aware of this and does more research!! or will it take a class action suit to get that going?? Probably. Maybe if enough of us get a "disability evaluation" and can't work, it will get investigated. Maybe 5 - 10 years from now!! Yikes!!
Anybody heard of anyone who had these symptoms who had them got away after awhile?
winddancer
Posted by winddancer on April 20, 2005, at 0:02:54
In reply to Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » winddancer, posted by Elroy on April 18, 2005, at 16:51:16
Elroy,
Interesting site! Pretty complex. I think I would feel better having a health care practitioner who specializes in this biochemistry evaluate and advise me about this. But I have always been proactive about my health care, and have really been stumped at all that is happening with my health since being on all these AD drugs - Boy! what we get ourselves into when we start taking meds.
winddancer
Posted by winddancer on April 20, 2005, at 0:19:23
In reply to Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated?, posted by Corafree on April 19, 2005, at 22:56:31
CF,
There is a product called "Female Balance" by Awarenesslife, for relief of mild menopausal and PMS symptoms. It has what you're looking for: $25.46 plus shpng and tax = $33.16 for 60 caps; 1 month at 2x per day
A friend of mine swears by this and some of their other products - she has done extensive research for the highest quality supplements she can find for the best price. It is network marketed and if you elect auto-ship, you can get it cheaper and your own website - then anyone who gets it off your site, gives you a commission and therefore reduces your cost further. Let me know if you decide to do it and I will send you the website.
[jf_206@hotmail.com]winddancer
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.