![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 28 to 52 of 66. Go back in thread:
Posted by barbaracat on April 1, 2005, at 13:57:11
In reply to Re: Hospital and Cytomel » barbaracat, posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 0:31:01
Maxine,
I forgot to add, 'don't expect an Endo to know a bloody thing about thyroid in the real world'. No endo I've ever seen 'believes in' cytomel. Well, guess what, I don't believe in endos! I feel so much better taking only 10mg of T3, so nyah nyah, to them!If your current primary care doc is intermeshed with the endo, he/she won't go over the endo's word from God proclamation about what you do or don't need. Can you find another primary care doc who perhaps doesn't know you or your 'problems' so intimately and might be willing to start fresh? Doctors become very prejudiced by patient as problem and it's hard to be seen as just a person after a while.
Can you perhaps see a naturopathic physician? I don't know if you have licensed naturopaths in Canada. You most likely will pay out of pocket, but they're usually not at all expensive and very very worthwhile. If you have to make a trip down south to the US to become a patient of a good naturopath, it may a drastic measure but getting your thyroid PERFECT is your #1 priority. I feel very strongly about this, knowing first hand what a bum thyroid can do to your body, mind, and soul. - Barbara
> I have asked my endo twice to put me on the cytomel in combination with the Synthroid. He won't do it. My pdoc called him and asked ... he won't do it. The only good thing is that he does like my TSH to be borderline hyperthyroid. Not that it does any good.
>
> Thanks for your input Barbara. I appreciate it.
>
> Maxi
>
>
> > Hi Maxine,
> > Ooh, my heart goes out to you. Sometimes it's so uncomfortable to be alive and to have a fumbling pdoc you don't have confidence in makes it seem even more bleak. I simply do not understand how some of these folks made it through the rigours of medical school.
> >
> > About hospitalization, I've been through 2, most recently late January. It was basically a Zen, minimalist experience, a time out of time fueled by plenty of lorazepam. Didn't 'help' me, but gave me a time out to reasses things, and I must admit, a hidden motive was to drive the screws of awareness into my husband's brain that things really have been that bad for me.
> >
> > If you think you need to be hospitalized, is it so different in Canada as in the US? We merely have to show up at the Emergency Room stating we're suicidal, and they have to admit you. No matter what you're financial status is, each state has money earmarked for this and it's usually better for the patient financially and the level of care than relying on what's allowed by insurance. This was told to me by a pretty open mental health care worker, that hospitals must take you and ER depts are the place to go. The fact that you're admitting you have plans to your current pdoc and he's not taking it seriously is cause for concern. There must be a way to find out for sure that you have this recourse if you need it.
> >
> > > As for the thyroid situation.
> >
> > **Thyroid, very very important, mucho important. Mine has been hypo most of my life and since starting Lithium, has bounced all over. I have fibromyalgia and the symptoms are identical to low thryoid. My TSH literally ping-pongs. Long story short, I've tried Armour and the others and the ratio of T3 is far too high for my bipolar anxiety in these natural formulations. What has worked very well is Synthroid with a small about (10mg) of Cytomel. I've had numerous trials of T4 alone and it just didn't work. T3 alone, ick, too much anxiety. But the two have been very stable and the fibro symtpoms are all but gone. My TSH is very low, skimming hyper, which is where I feel best.
> >
> > I really encourage you to insist on a trial of Cytomel. No matter what your doctor thinks of it, the important thing is what you think of it. Hang in there. - Barbara
>
>
Posted by TamaraJ on April 1, 2005, at 15:34:25
In reply to My doctor can't help me, posted by Maxime on March 29, 2005, at 12:50:41
Maxime,
I know this is going to sound very simplistic, but can your family doctor or gyn help you, even by running necessary blood tests (including even the basic thyroid test, but preferably a full thyroid panel )? The endocrinologist you are seeing sounds like a putz, particularly since you have had thyroid tests done that clearly indicate hypothyroidism. Just as an aside, a number of years ago, my best friend, was feeling run down, sleeping a lot, couldn't concentrate, was irritable, etc., and her gp (same gp as I had) tested her thyroid. Anyway, she was subclinical, but the gp said that it was time to start treating it, based on her symptoms and the results of the test. Within a couple of months of treatment, she was back to her old self. So, what I am getting at is - can you get in to see a gp, even if it is at a walk-in clinic, or even a gyn. And, don't even mention that you have seen an endo in the past. Also, your pdoc can request blood tests, and frankly, at this point, you might want to demand that he do so. Then you can take the results to either a gp, a gyn or a new endo (if you have lost confidence in your current endo). And, if you are concerned about expressing yourself verbally, you can always send your pdoc an e-mail or type something up and hand it to him when you see him, or take what you have typed up to the clinic. It is just a thought. It just pisses me off to see someone getting obviously sub-standard care.
My heart goes out to you Maxime. Don't hesitate to let me know if there is anything I can do.
Tamara
> I had another appt. today with my pdoc. He is grasping at straws now. He says there are many biochemical reasons why I am unable to tolerate my Parnate even at 10 mg however when I pressed him to tell me some he wasn't able to. I did tell him I tried to combine the Desipramine and the Parnate for a couple of days. He didn't freak out in fact he said he has done that before with patients. So now I am to take 25 mg of Desipramine 3 times a day. I don't think this is going to help me. I told him I was suicidal and I had plans. I told him I wasn't going to kill myself today or even this week but it would be soon. He said that we couldn't give up. Okay. But "we" aren't the one suffering. It's me. I can't believe he doesn't throw me into the hospital. Any other pdoc I have had would throw me into the hospital for being so suicidal. Maybe it's because he works in a psychiatric hospital and I am good shape compared to anyone he sees there. I'm glad. I have never really been helped by any of my hospitalizations except for when I went psychotic from Topomax and then Wellbutrin. I was so scared I wanted to be in the hospital. But I am not scared now.
>
> Maxime
Posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 15:54:44
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Maxime, posted by TamaraJ on April 1, 2005, at 15:34:25
Hi. Well I started seeing an endo because my GP screwed up my thyroid (indirectly). I had a test in the fall of 2003 and the test came back hypothryoid. So she increased my synthroid slightly. By Christmas I was feeling worse. I called her and told her that I was sure my thryoid was messed up and I reminded her that I was taking Dilantin (as a mood stabiliser... have since stopped). I told her that I read Dilantin can prevent the absorption of Synthroid. She said she it was not true. In January of 2004 I went to see and demanded that a blood test be taken. She called me and my TSH was up to 25! So that is when I decided I should see an endo. That why I knew when I went to see him that my TSH was 25. I saw another endo that my pdoc set me up to see. I saw him once and then for my next 2 appointments he cancelled 30 minutes before each one. I had to take half a day off work just to get to the hospital because it was on the other side of town. I arrived and the receptionist/assistant said that she had tried to call me a half hour ago. UGH! He had an emergency to take care of! I mean this man is not a surgeon. What emergency could there be? Then it happened the second time. After that I just didn't show up for my fourth appointment because I could not waste another half day of work.
Maybe I will play the role of hypochodriac when I see him on the 11th. Maybe I will beg him to order tests so that my mind is at ease. I will tell him it keeps me awake at night worrying about it. I'm already "a psych patient" to him. I might as well act like one.
Sigh.
Maxime
> Maxime,
>
> I know this is going to sound very simplistic, but can your family doctor or gyn help you, even by running necessary blood tests (including even the basic thyroid test, but preferably a full thyroid panel )? The endocrinologist you are seeing sounds like a putz, particularly since you have had thyroid tests done that clearly indicate hypothyroidism. Just as an aside, a number of years ago, my best friend, was feeling run down, sleeping a lot, couldn't concentrate, was irritable, etc., and her gp (same gp as I had) tested her thyroid. Anyway, she was subclinical, but the gp said that it was time to start treating it, based on her symptoms and the results of the test. Within a couple of months of treatment, she was back to her old self. So, what I am getting at is - can you get in to see a gp, even if it is at a walk-in clinic, or even a gyn. And, don't even mention that you have seen an endo in the past. Also, your pdoc can request blood tests, and frankly, at this point, you might want to demand that he do so. Then you can take the results to either a gp, a gyn or a new endo (if you have lost confidence in your current endo). And, if you are concerned about expressing yourself verbally, you can always send your pdoc an e-mail or type something up and hand it to him when you see him, or take what you have typed up to the clinic. It is just a thought. It just pisses me off to see someone getting obviously sub-standard care.
>
> My heart goes out to you Maxime. Don't hesitate to let me know if there is anything I can do.
>
> Tamara
>
> > I had another appt. today with my pdoc. He is grasping at straws now. He says there are many biochemical reasons why I am unable to tolerate my Parnate even at 10 mg however when I pressed him to tell me some he wasn't able to. I did tell him I tried to combine the Desipramine and the Parnate for a couple of days. He didn't freak out in fact he said he has done that before with patients. So now I am to take 25 mg of Desipramine 3 times a day. I don't think this is going to help me. I told him I was suicidal and I had plans. I told him I wasn't going to kill myself today or even this week but it would be soon. He said that we couldn't give up. Okay. But "we" aren't the one suffering. It's me. I can't believe he doesn't throw me into the hospital. Any other pdoc I have had would throw me into the hospital for being so suicidal. Maybe it's because he works in a psychiatric hospital and I am good shape compared to anyone he sees there. I'm glad. I have never really been helped by any of my hospitalizations except for when I went psychotic from Topomax and then Wellbutrin. I was so scared I wanted to be in the hospital. But I am not scared now.
> >
> > Maxime
>
>
Posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2005, at 16:14:32
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Maxime, posted by TamaraJ on April 1, 2005, at 15:34:25
Maxime, Your TSH is 25! When mine was 22 it made me so anxious that the pdoc I was working with gave me a shot of 2mg of ativan IM. Instantly I felt "normal". That was the beginning of my first hospitalization. When they adjusted my thyroid medication I felt well. Went home, and carried on as usual. I never felt tired, just panic. Are we all so different that one feels like sleeping all the time and the other is a steady state of panic? Every time I saw a different doctor they couldn't believe my reflexes and questioned the dx of hypothyroidism. But when a complete panel was run it was always normal. You mentioned a lower range of normal in one of your earlier posts didn't you? If not blame my ignorance on the drugs. But my old pdoc wanted me to be on the low end. He said it would help depression. Ever hear anything like this? Could one of us please go to medical school and devote a practice just for women. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 17:36:26
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Maxime, posted by justyourlaugh on April 1, 2005, at 10:54:20
I would prefer if we could do it relay style. One person can't do this on her own. I need a rest from it all.
Unless you've walked in my size 2 1/2 shoes you don't know what it's like to be me or what I have been through. And since most people on this board have feet that would not fit into my shoes, no one will ever understand.
Maxime
> yes you can maxime..
> go around one more time..and then another..
> we are all here to listen..
> we understand..
> look to the left of you , we are wondering around the track beside you.
> j
Posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 17:43:05
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me, posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2005, at 16:14:32
I can't believe you felt anxious. I couldn't move. I had trouble getting out of bed because my joints hurt so much. I was sleeping all day.
My endo likes to keep mine between 1-2 just above hyperthyroidism. It is suppose to help depression to have it at that (low) level.
Maxime
> Maxime, Your TSH is 25! When mine was 22 it made me so anxious that the pdoc I was working with gave me a shot of 2mg of ativan IM. Instantly I felt "normal". That was the beginning of my first hospitalization. When they adjusted my thyroid medication I felt well. Went home, and carried on as usual. I never felt tired, just panic. Are we all so different that one feels like sleeping all the time and the other is a steady state of panic? Every time I saw a different doctor they couldn't believe my reflexes and questioned the dx of hypothyroidism. But when a complete panel was run it was always normal. You mentioned a lower range of normal in one of your earlier posts didn't you? If not blame my ignorance on the drugs. But my old pdoc wanted me to be on the low end. He said it would help depression. Ever hear anything like this? Could one of us please go to medical school and devote a practice just for women. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2005, at 19:40:17
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me, posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 17:43:05
I know it doesn't make any sense does it? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 21:22:50
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Maxime, posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2005, at 19:40:17
> I know it doesn't make any sense does it? Fondly, Phillipa
No it makes perfect sense actually. Hypothyroidism mimics depression. By keeping you close to hyperthyroidism, most of the symptoms should be kept at bay.
At least I know when I am depressed that it is my depression at not my thyroid. Although in this case I don't known because even though my tests will come back as normal I have other symptoms of hypothyroidism. Sigh.
Maxime
Posted by justyourlaugh on April 1, 2005, at 22:18:05
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » justyourlaugh, posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 17:36:26
wow maxime...
i was trying to be kind..understanding..
yes yes yes..alot of us do understand..
i do not try to know what it is like to be you?
but we all know what pain is...
j
Posted by TamaraJ on April 2, 2005, at 10:23:55
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me, posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 15:54:44
Hi Maxime,
By Christmas I was feeling worse. I called her and told her that I was sure my thryoid was messed up and I reminded her that I was taking Dilantin (as a mood stabiliser... have since stopped). I told her that I read Dilantin can prevent the absorption of Synthroid. She said she it was not true.
~~ God, I just don't understand why doctors don't listen to patients and trust them to have done some kind of research to inform themselves about the side effects and interactions associate with any meds they may be taking! It's either incompetence, apathy or arrogance - or a combination of the three. And, it is always the patient who pays the price. So sad. I am sorry you had to deal with that. It shouldn't happen!I saw another endo that my pdoc set me up to see. I saw him once and then for my next 2 appointments he cancelled 30 minutes before each one. I had to take half a day off work just to get to the hospital because it was on the other side of town. I arrived and the receptionist/assistant said that she had tried to call me a half hour ago. UGH! He had an emergency to take care of! I mean this man is not a surgeon. What emergency could there be? Then it happened the second time. After that I just didn't show up for my fourth appointment because I could not waste another half day of work.
>
~~ Do you think you can get an appointment with him now? It might be worth a try.> Maybe I will play the role of hypochodriac when I see him on the 11th. Maybe I will beg him to order tests so that my mind is at ease. I will tell him it keeps me awake at night worrying about it. I'm already "a psych patient" to him. I might as well act like one.
>
~~ As distasteful as it is to do so, if it means you will get the tests and treatment you need and deserve, then so be it. I, too, would hate to have to resort to such a thing, but if it means that your concerns will be dealt with, then all I can say is 'play the game', at least long enough to get the thyroid problems addressed.> Sigh.
>
~~ Sigh is right :-(Tamara
>
Posted by barbaracat on April 2, 2005, at 12:58:27
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me, posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 15:54:44
Hypothyroid can most definitely cause anxiety, panic, shakyness, hot flashes. Weird when you think that it also can cause tiredness, sluggishness, coldness. Basically, it shuts down the cells' mitochrondria from producing energy and that can take the form of so many symptoms, depending on what cells are involved. Thyroid is needed for the whole estrogen pathway and estrogen is required to make neurotransmitters. It shuts down digestion. It's needed for regulation of the temperature sensor in the hypothalamus, so sometimes you're hot, others cold. It's all interconnected in ways that are tailor made for our private hells.
The highest my TSH ever got was 18 and I can't believe how awful I felt. Deep joint pains, an inner damp chill and cold sweats, panic and depression, everything seeming overwhelming, fuzzy thinking, chronic constipation. This is not a good thing for someone prone to bipolar depression. It doesn't take much to swing me into a bleak frenzied despair and hypothyroidism is a very good stressor.
Even if your TSH is now showing in the low range and you're still have symptoms, basic thyroidology tells us that there may be a dysfunction in the cells' ability to convert T4 to the active T3, so yes, there may be enough T4 in the blood due to Synthroid, but the cells are not making the best use of it. Enter Cytomel! Made all the difference to me.
You also need to consider your adrenals. Many conventional doctors poo-poo adrendal fatigue, but it's a very real condition. Stress over a long time can cause the adrenals to overproduce cortisol which leads to all kinds of problems down the line including damage to the adrenal glands themselves. These glands are the secondary producers of the sex hormones and thyroid. Word has it that if the adrenals are not brought back to a decent functioning order, the rest of the the hormones are going to falter.
Maxine, it sounds to me that you are in a loop of clueless doctors and are going around in fruitless circles. I'm totally unaware of the Canadian health system, but I would hope you could jettison these jerks and find someone else. Getting cancelled at the last minute two times would be quite enough for me, thank you very much, and said putz would receive a very pointed letter informing him of my feelings.
A TSH of 25 calls for immediate action, like serious hup-to-it wow! let's get moving! Your posts and sense of desperation that comes through is very typical of someone in the throes of a serious thyroid imbalance. I am not taking this lightly. I have walked in your shoes and I quite simply urge you to find and demand better care. You need to stop wasting your precious energy trying to convince these people who seem to be missing the basic rudiments of Endocrinology 101, especially your endo.
I totally agree with Tamara. An OB-Gyn may be your best bet. The one I've recently found has been a treasure. She understands hormones, all of them, she understand how absolutely crucial it is to have them in balance. Otherwise, all the pills we take to make us sane are just a waste of money. In other words, you DO NOT need an endo. I think you'll find alot of concurrence that endos are pretty worthless for standard thyroid problems. I don't know why this is, I think if you have thryoid cancer, or some extreme desease state, an endo is your man - they can operate and radiate. But for the rest of us, all they can seem to do is prescribe Synthroid.
In my book, two basic things are needed for life - 1. energy, 2. hope. If you don't have enough life force, energy, everthing is hard and you lose hope. So put that brilliant mind to work to get yourself a good health team and kiss these jokers goodbuy.
Posted by Phillipa on April 2, 2005, at 16:40:21
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Maxime, posted by barbaracat on April 2, 2005, at 12:58:27
Barbaracat, What is the name of your book? I didn't realize you were an author. I knew you knew your stuff, but didn't know the extent. I've fought with endocrinologists, etc for years and as long as "your complete thyroid panel is WNL" you're okay. As I've said in previous Threads, one of the things that struck me when I worked as a psych RN in the hospital, were the number of pts who had thyroid problems. They were getting blamed for being noncompiant with meds, complainers, etc. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 18:30:32
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Maxime, posted by TamaraJ on April 2, 2005, at 10:23:55
Hi Tamara:
I really don't want to see that other Endo because he felt that my doctor was overtreating my thryoid (I saw him after my appointment with the other endo. I had made two appointments to see who I would like better). So I don't want to see an endo who wants my TSH to be higher than 3-4. Also I told him how my ankles hurt and other joints and he said that joint pain is not a symptom of hypothyroidism!! That is such BS. No, this guy did not take me seriously.
I am stuck with guy I have.
Maxime
> Hi Maxime,
>
> By Christmas I was feeling worse. I called her and told her that I was sure my thryoid was messed up and I reminded her that I was taking Dilantin (as a mood stabiliser... have since stopped). I told her that I read Dilantin can prevent the absorption of Synthroid. She said she it was not true.
>
> ~~ God, I just don't understand why doctors don't listen to patients and trust them to have done some kind of research to inform themselves about the side effects and interactions associate with any meds they may be taking! It's either incompetence, apathy or arrogance - or a combination of the three. And, it is always the patient who pays the price. So sad. I am sorry you had to deal with that. It shouldn't happen!
>
> I saw another endo that my pdoc set me up to see. I saw him once and then for my next 2 appointments he cancelled 30 minutes before each one. I had to take half a day off work just to get to the hospital because it was on the other side of town. I arrived and the receptionist/assistant said that she had tried to call me a half hour ago. UGH! He had an emergency to take care of! I mean this man is not a surgeon. What emergency could there be? Then it happened the second time. After that I just didn't show up for my fourth appointment because I could not waste another half day of work.
> >
> ~~ Do you think you can get an appointment with him now? It might be worth a try.
>
> > Maybe I will play the role of hypochodriac when I see him on the 11th. Maybe I will beg him to order tests so that my mind is at ease. I will tell him it keeps me awake at night worrying about it. I'm already "a psych patient" to him. I might as well act like one.
> >
> ~~ As distasteful as it is to do so, if it means you will get the tests and treatment you need and deserve, then so be it. I, too, would hate to have to resort to such a thing, but if it means that your concerns will be dealt with, then all I can say is 'play the game', at least long enough to get the thyroid problems addressed.
>
> > Sigh.
> >
> ~~ Sigh is right :-(
>
> Tamara
> >
Posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 18:47:46
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Maxime, posted by barbaracat on April 2, 2005, at 12:58:27
Barbara, thank you so much. I agree with you. Right now, for me to find an OB-Gyn is next to impossible. There are not enough in Montreal to go around. Really. Actually we have such a crisis on our hands here. There are thousands of Montrealers who cannot get a GP. As a result the ERs are always full. The ERs are so full that patients lie in gurneys in the halls. I remember my PDOC in Calgary said she had never seen anything like it before when she came to Montreal to work at hospital for a year.
My pdoc wants me to have ECT. There is no way I will ever have it. But can you imagine if I said "yes" and all my problems were endocrine? Jolting my body with an electrical current isn't going to help things.
I know more about the thyroid than I do the adrenal glands. I see my endo on the 11 so I have until then to learn all I can. I told the endo I thought I might have a conversion problem. He just laughed. He asked me if I had read about it on the internet. I said "no I read about it in one of the 6 books I have read about the thyroid and hypothyroidism". Do they expect to remain in the dark? Don't they want us to be informed?
Thanks for listening.
Maxime
> Hypothyroid can most definitely cause anxiety, panic, shakyness, hot flashes. Weird when you think that it also can cause tiredness, sluggishness, coldness. Basically, it shuts down the cells' mitochrondria from producing energy and that can take the form of so many symptoms, depending on what cells are involved. Thyroid is needed for the whole estrogen pathway and estrogen is required to make neurotransmitters. It shuts down digestion. It's needed for regulation of the temperature sensor in the hypothalamus, so sometimes you're hot, others cold. It's all interconnected in ways that are tailor made for our private hells.
>
> The highest my TSH ever got was 18 and I can't believe how awful I felt. Deep joint pains, an inner damp chill and cold sweats, panic and depression, everything seeming overwhelming, fuzzy thinking, chronic constipation. This is not a good thing for someone prone to bipolar depression. It doesn't take much to swing me into a bleak frenzied despair and hypothyroidism is a very good stressor.
>
> Even if your TSH is now showing in the low range and you're still have symptoms, basic thyroidology tells us that there may be a dysfunction in the cells' ability to convert T4 to the active T3, so yes, there may be enough T4 in the blood due to Synthroid, but the cells are not making the best use of it. Enter Cytomel! Made all the difference to me.
>
> You also need to consider your adrenals. Many conventional doctors poo-poo adrendal fatigue, but it's a very real condition. Stress over a long time can cause the adrenals to overproduce cortisol which leads to all kinds of problems down the line including damage to the adrenal glands themselves. These glands are the secondary producers of the sex hormones and thyroid. Word has it that if the adrenals are not brought back to a decent functioning order, the rest of the the hormones are going to falter.
>
> Maxine, it sounds to me that you are in a loop of clueless doctors and are going around in fruitless circles. I'm totally unaware of the Canadian health system, but I would hope you could jettison these jerks and find someone else. Getting cancelled at the last minute two times would be quite enough for me, thank you very much, and said putz would receive a very pointed letter informing him of my feelings.
>
> A TSH of 25 calls for immediate action, like serious hup-to-it wow! let's get moving! Your posts and sense of desperation that comes through is very typical of someone in the throes of a serious thyroid imbalance. I am not taking this lightly. I have walked in your shoes and I quite simply urge you to find and demand better care. You need to stop wasting your precious energy trying to convince these people who seem to be missing the basic rudiments of Endocrinology 101, especially your endo.
>
> I totally agree with Tamara. An OB-Gyn may be your best bet. The one I've recently found has been a treasure. She understands hormones, all of them, she understand how absolutely crucial it is to have them in balance. Otherwise, all the pills we take to make us sane are just a waste of money. In other words, you DO NOT need an endo. I think you'll find alot of concurrence that endos are pretty worthless for standard thyroid problems. I don't know why this is, I think if you have thryoid cancer, or some extreme desease state, an endo is your man - they can operate and radiate. But for the rest of us, all they can seem to do is prescribe Synthroid.
>
> In my book, two basic things are needed for life - 1. energy, 2. hope. If you don't have enough life force, energy, everthing is hard and you lose hope. So put that brilliant mind to work to get yourself a good health team and kiss these jokers goodbuy.
>
Posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 18:50:16
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » barbaracat, posted by Phillipa on April 2, 2005, at 16:40:21
Um, Phillipa. "In my book" is often used as an expression. I don't think Barbara has actually written one. But if she has I will run out and buy it. :)
Maxime
> Barbaracat, What is the name of your book? I didn't realize you were an author. I knew you knew your stuff, but didn't know the extent. I've fought with endocrinologists, etc for years and as long as "your complete thyroid panel is WNL" you're okay. As I've said in previous Threads, one of the things that struck me when I worked as a psych RN in the hospital, were the number of pts who had thyroid problems. They were getting blamed for being noncompiant with meds, complainers, etc. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on April 2, 2005, at 18:57:52
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me, posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 18:50:16
Oh Maxime, I have to blame it on the pain from the surgery. I'm trying to stay busy but I can't concentrate. I'm blown up like a balloon. I think my head will blow away, or pop! If she didn't write a book, maybe she will now. Sorry Barbaracat. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by barbaracat on April 2, 2005, at 19:52:42
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » barbaracat, posted by Phillipa on April 2, 2005, at 16:40:21
Phillipa,
Ah, my Dear, I'm flattered, but I don't have a book, at least not published as of yet (although working on it). I probably said something like 'in my book, this is what I'd do blah blah' as a figure of speach.But there are a few good books out there that address this thyroid epidemic. A good one is "Thyroid Power" by Richard and Karolee Shames, whom I know personally and can vouch for their dedication in this field. Another is the website www.thryoid.about.com, which is a wealth of information, simply great. Most docs I've talked to don't even know about this site, which they definitely should.
What's true is that most docs stop at the TSH numbers and don't go further on to test free T4, free T3, reverse T3, and thyroiditis autoimmune antibodies. TSH simply measures the feedback of how much T4 is floating around in the blood, NOT how well its being converted to T3 and used inside the cell. But then, extra tests cost money and time so unless you specifically know what you want and make a pest of yourself until you get what you deserve, you're at the mercy of the status quo.
Another overlooked contributor is pesticides, heavy metal toxicity, and surprise surprise, flouride! Flouridated water is a tragic misconception that it's doing a great thing. It replaces calcium in the teeth and bones and competes for thyroxine hormone. My husband and I are actively involved in preventing a statewide injunction to flouridate all drinking water. If you want flouride for teeth, get it topically, not systemically. Such folly!
> Barbaracat, What is the name of your book? I didn't realize you were an author. I knew you knew your stuff, but didn't know the extent. I've fought with endocrinologists, etc for years and as long as "your complete thyroid panel is WNL" you're okay. As I've said in previous Threads, one of the things that struck me when I worked as a psych RN in the hospital, were the number of pts who had thyroid problems. They were getting blamed for being noncompiant with meds, complainers, etc. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on April 2, 2005, at 20:10:19
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Phillipa, posted by barbaracat on April 2, 2005, at 19:52:42
Barbaracat, Oh well you had your moment of fame! Hopefully this will spur you on to finish that dissertation I believe you are trying to work on. Or, maybe it was a message telling you, you should write a book. Since I have had an elevated ANA for years, I was lucky enough that they tested me for Hashimotos Thyroiditis and that's what I have. In the past 8 years, I've only had to change doseages one time when my anxiety went sky high and my TSH was 22. I always make them do a complete thyroid panel. Since I've been treated by the Head of Infection Control at Pitt Memorial Hospital in Greenville, NC for chronic lymes disease he is quite through. He is a true detective and it seems that he is doing the opposite of other doctors. He is always trying to find something wrong! When we told him our insurance was running out, he ordered an endocrinologist consult, as well as a neurologist consult. I never knew who was coming to see me when I got myself admitted to the hospital to find a new pdoc. Thanks for the website. I will visit it later as my head is blown up like a balloon from the surgery. Fondly, Phillipa PS I had a little savings that I decided to use as you only live once!
Posted by barbaracat on April 2, 2005, at 20:33:22
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » barbaracat, posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 18:47:46
> Right now, for me to find an OB-Gyn is next to impossible. There are not enough in Montreal to go around. Really. Actually we have such a crisis on our hands here. There are thousands of Montrealers who cannot get a GP. As a result the ERs are always full. The ERs are so full that patients lie in gurneys in the halls.
**Jeez, I didn't realize it was so bad. We hear all about the wonders of socialized medicine like you folks have, but it sure doesn't seem like the answer. It sounds like what's happening is you're so strapped for doctors, quality is being sacrificed. That's why I put my health in the capable hands of naturopaths (had to search around till I found a good one). They consider the whole person, use superior testing methods, and usually are associated with some good docs to get hooked up to. I pay for it out of pocket which I can ill afford, but I can't afford the bullsh*t I get from the idiot healthcare system either. Again, you may need to forget about free care and take a trip down south or find a alternative doc practicing outside of this disgraceful system. I'd be hapy to help out with suggestions to find someone if you want to go this route.
>
> My pdoc wants me to have ECT. There is no way I will ever have it. But can you imagine if I said "yes" and all my problems were endocrine? Jolting my body with an electrical current isn't going to help things.**No, especially if your adrenals are already fried. I'm not surprised at the incredibly lame response you go from your endo. It only shows his ignorance and ego. If he got over his hubris, he'd realize how crucial a part the adrenals play in our overall health. They produce cortisol, the stress hormone, for Pete's sake! They're the primary producer of sex hormones after menopause. They become enlarged from a contstant onslaught of cortisol production and simply poop out. A no brainer, in my estimation, however, because I am not an endo, endos usually pat me on the head and smile indulgently. I smile sweetly (they don't like uppity) and say "I understand you expected better results from your treatment, however, I appear to not be feeling better. I dont't feel as though I'm improving on this protocol. How can we work together on improving this? (notice the 'we'. They don't like that, but it sends a clear message). My current OB-GYN said that most endos she knows like to wear fussy bow ties and as a rule, feel it's beneath them to work with hypothyroid patients and would rather do the 'real stuff', like radiate and operate on a thyroid glad.
If you haven't yet come across "Adrenal Fatigue" by J. Wilson, highly recommended.
ECT may not be out of the question and could help to reset the switch, but only in a system that can take the juice. Getting zapped in a depleted system, well, your intuitive hit seems right on.
But one thing I'm not clear on at this point, Maxine, what are your TSH numbers? what's the state of your endocrine health as you know it, and how do you suspect you have an endocrine imbalance? It may not just be your thyroid, although thyroid is interrelated with all the hormones. Have you had your estrogen/progesterone/DHEA/testosterone levels checked? This might be asking too much of the Canadian health care system, but there are ways of testing these things yourself through online sources. You may need to say 'screw these doctors' and blaze your own trail. I can't tell you how many of my acquaintences and myself have had to do this. Thank God for the internet! (despite what your endo thinks).
If along the way you bump into a really talented and dedicated healer, then bless them. So, my own very basic formula, the foundation on which everything else rests is HORMONAL BALANCE. No amount of lithium, SSRI's ECT or anything will hold for long without this basic foundation. Whatever you have to do, out of pocket, internet magicians, whatever, don't let Cro-Magnon medicine keep you stuck. - Barbara
>
> I know more about the thyroid than I do the adrenal glands. I see my endo on the 11 so I have until then to learn all I can. I told the endo I thought I might have a conversion problem. He just laughed. He asked me if I had read about it on the internet. I said "no I read about it in one of the 6 books I have read about the thyroid and hypothyroidism". Do they expect to remain in the dark? Don't they want us to be informed?
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Maxime
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hypothyroid can most definitely cause anxiety, panic, shakyness, hot flashes. Weird when you think that it also can cause tiredness, sluggishness, coldness. Basically, it shuts down the cells' mitochrondria from producing energy and that can take the form of so many symptoms, depending on what cells are involved. Thyroid is needed for the whole estrogen pathway and estrogen is required to make neurotransmitters. It shuts down digestion. It's needed for regulation of the temperature sensor in the hypothalamus, so sometimes you're hot, others cold. It's all interconnected in ways that are tailor made for our private hells.
> >
> > The highest my TSH ever got was 18 and I can't believe how awful I felt. Deep joint pains, an inner damp chill and cold sweats, panic and depression, everything seeming overwhelming, fuzzy thinking, chronic constipation. This is not a good thing for someone prone to bipolar depression. It doesn't take much to swing me into a bleak frenzied despair and hypothyroidism is a very good stressor.
> >
> > Even if your TSH is now showing in the low range and you're still have symptoms, basic thyroidology tells us that there may be a dysfunction in the cells' ability to convert T4 to the active T3, so yes, there may be enough T4 in the blood due to Synthroid, but the cells are not making the best use of it. Enter Cytomel! Made all the difference to me.
> >
> > You also need to consider your adrenals. Many conventional doctors poo-poo adrendal fatigue, but it's a very real condition. Stress over a long time can cause the adrenals to overproduce cortisol which leads to all kinds of problems down the line including damage to the adrenal glands themselves. These glands are the secondary producers of the sex hormones and thyroid. Word has it that if the adrenals are not brought back to a decent functioning order, the rest of the the hormones are going to falter.
> >
> > Maxine, it sounds to me that you are in a loop of clueless doctors and are going around in fruitless circles. I'm totally unaware of the Canadian health system, but I would hope you could jettison these jerks and find someone else. Getting cancelled at the last minute two times would be quite enough for me, thank you very much, and said putz would receive a very pointed letter informing him of my feelings.
> >
> > A TSH of 25 calls for immediate action, like serious hup-to-it wow! let's get moving! Your posts and sense of desperation that comes through is very typical of someone in the throes of a serious thyroid imbalance. I am not taking this lightly. I have walked in your shoes and I quite simply urge you to find and demand better care. You need to stop wasting your precious energy trying to convince these people who seem to be missing the basic rudiments of Endocrinology 101, especially your endo.
> >
> > I totally agree with Tamara. An OB-Gyn may be your best bet. The one I've recently found has been a treasure. She understands hormones, all of them, she understand how absolutely crucial it is to have them in balance. Otherwise, all the pills we take to make us sane are just a waste of money. In other words, you DO NOT need an endo. I think you'll find alot of concurrence that endos are pretty worthless for standard thyroid problems. I don't know why this is, I think if you have thryoid cancer, or some extreme desease state, an endo is your man - they can operate and radiate. But for the rest of us, all they can seem to do is prescribe Synthroid.
> >
> > In my book, two basic things are needed for life - 1. energy, 2. hope. If you don't have enough life force, energy, everthing is hard and you lose hope. So put that brilliant mind to work to get yourself a good health team and kiss these jokers goodbuy.
> >
>
>
Posted by barbaracat on April 2, 2005, at 20:40:26
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » barbaracat, posted by Phillipa on April 2, 2005, at 20:10:19
Thanks for your encouragement to get my book finished. You know how it is. Everything else takes precidence.
I believe I have hashimoto's as well, but my docs all say there's no difference in treatment. Have you found this to be the case? Doesn't elevated ALA point to possible Lupus or rheumatoid issues? Have you had this checked into?
BTW, did you get vision laser surgery or did you really treat yourself and now have 16 year-old eyelids? If so, I'm jealous! - Barbaracat
, Oh well you had your moment of fame! Hopefully this will spur you on to finish that dissertation I believe you are trying to work on. Or, maybe it was a message telling you, you should write a book. Since I have had an elevated ANA for years, I was lucky enough that they tested me for Hashimotos Thyroiditis and that's what I have. In the past 8 years, I've only had to change doseages one time when my anxiety went sky high and my TSH was 22. I always make them do a complete thyroid panel. Since I've been treated by the Head of Infection Control at Pitt Memorial Hospital in Greenville, NC for chronic lymes disease he is quite through. He is a true detective and it seems that he is doing the opposite of other doctors. He is always trying to find something wrong! When we told him our insurance was running out, he ordered an endocrinologist consult, as well as a neurologist consult. I never knew who was coming to see me when I got myself admitted to the hospital to find a new pdoc. Thanks for the website. I will visit it later as my head is blown up like a balloon from the surgery. Fondly, Phillipa PS I had a little savings that I decided to use as you only live once!
Posted by Phillipa on April 2, 2005, at 22:14:25
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Phillipa, posted by barbaracat on April 2, 2005, at 20:40:26
Yes, they treat it the same. Synthroid. They like to keep my level at the low end of normal [TSH] as it is supposed to help with depression. Let's put it this way I plead temporary insanity. I had the whold job done. Right now I'm unable to chew or make the left side of my mouth smile. I hope he didn't damage a nerve. The eyes also. Like I said you only live once, and what good is money in the bank if you die of a heart attack! And I've tested negative for Lupus, RA, and Sjornes, Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 22:34:42
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Maxime, posted by barbaracat on April 2, 2005, at 20:33:22
All I know is that my TSH was 1.2 at my last appointment and my endo was happy with that. Sigh. I have blood requisition test form and I have to get it drawn this week for my appointment on 11th. All he ticked off was TSH and Free T4 - grrrrr. Not even my Free T3!!! It's not even option on the form.
I have never had an extensive panel done by him. I was on Synthroid when my TSH went to 25 but that was because of the Dilantin.
I had an extensive panel of testing done when I lived out west in Calgary. I remember the doctor saying I had weird things going on with thyroid. That I could swing either way etc. Unfortunately I moved back to Montreal before we could start treatment. My dad had passed away. So I told my GP in Montreal ( I live in Calgary for 7 years but I am from MOntreal). She did some blood tests and put me on Synthroid. At that time I wasn't as proactive about my health as I am now so I just assumed she did the necessary tests. Besides nothing seemed to matter since my dad had died.
I tried to find her 6 months ago. She is not working in Calgary anymore. I was hoping I could get those blood test results.
Can you babble-mail me on how to do stuff online?
Thanks.
Maxime
> But one thing I'm not clear on at this point, Maxine, what are your TSH numbers? what's the state of your endocrine health as you know it, and how do you suspect you have an endocrine imbalance? It may not just be your thyroid, although thyroid is interrelated with all the hormones. Have you had your estrogen/progesterone/DHEA/testosterone levels checked? This might be asking too much of the Canadian health care system, but there are ways of testing these things yourself through online sources. You may need to say 'screw these doctors' and blaze your own trail. I can't tell you how many of my acquaintences and myself have had to do this. Thank God for the internet! (despite what your endo thinks).
Posted by Phillipa on April 2, 2005, at 23:27:31
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me, posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 22:34:42
Well, I looked up my TSH. in Dec 04 is was l.39, May of 02 it was 2.17, April 02 2.88, March 01 2.30. and May 2000 4.60. The T4 in Dec 04 was 9.4.Normal ranges for TSH are 0.35-5.50 and T4 4.5-l0.9. I wonder why my TSH keeps going down? Fondly,Phillipa
Posted by Maxime on April 3, 2005, at 0:40:00
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Maxime, posted by Phillipa on April 2, 2005, at 23:27:31
> Well, I looked up my TSH. in Dec 04 is was l.39, May of 02 it was 2.17, April 02 2.88, March 01 2.30. and May 2000 4.60. The T4 in Dec 04 was 9.4.Normal ranges for TSH are 0.35-5.50 and T4 4.5-l0.9. I wonder why my TSH keeps going down? Fondly,Phillipa
A lot of things affect your TSH level. Your TSH is lower in the morning, so when you have your blood test can make a difference. Your hormones can affect it. Now 5.50 is considered too high and most endos like to see a reading between 2-3. At least you are having the proper blood tests done. I think you are in good hands.
I think I will tell me endo that my doctor wants me to have ECT and I would really like him to help me by checking that everything is okay with my hormones etc. before I consent to having ECT (which I won't). Maybe it will boost his ego. He can "save" me.
God this is so f*cked up.
Maxime
Posted by Phillipa on April 3, 2005, at 15:42:45
In reply to Re: My doctor can't help me » Phillipa, posted by Maxime on April 3, 2005, at 0:40:00
Good idea! Flatter him. And if he thinks you want ECT, he will surely do the testing. It's a shame we have to "trick" these pdocs. But, I just don't understand why they ignore women. Except I don't think they know all that much about hormones as demonstrated by the panic with HRT. After all women weren't supposed to live past menopause. Now maybe a whole new subspecialty will form just for older women and their unique problems. But, I won't hold my breath! Fondly, Phillipa
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