![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 64. Go back in thread:
Posted by crazychickuk on December 26, 2004, at 22:02:37
In reply to Re: To Ed, posted by Phillipa on December 26, 2004, at 21:09:45
Does anyone nderstand this..
feels like i am having partial seizures feels like im gonna have a fit any time ... i go to docs they say its anxiety wtf they dont know whats going on the phyiscal symptoms o my god come ot of no where. i constantly fee my head jumping, im jolting, my brain tingles ... grrrrrrrrr anyone else?
Posted by Stryker88 on December 27, 2004, at 3:22:43
In reply to Re: To Donna !! » crazychickuk, posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 20:40:38
What an outrage!!!!!
Posted by crazychickuk on December 27, 2004, at 6:29:54
In reply to Re: This Is an Outrage Wyeth/Eli Lilly are Liars!!, posted by Stryker88 on December 27, 2004, at 3:22:43
not forgetting organon ..
If it wernt for most of these drugs i think half os us would be fine .. :-S
Posted by bamboomz on December 27, 2004, at 10:08:30
In reply to Re: buzzing brain, posted by crazychickuk on December 26, 2004, at 22:02:37
Hi guys,
I have been on Celexa for 2 weeks now. It is my first time trying an anti-depressant and since day one, it has been making me feel really weird. After reading all of your posts, I am starting to feel like maybe I should'ent be taking this stuff. Brain buzzez? Seizures?!? How can a drug company put something on the market that affects people's brains in such scary negative ways?
This drug is making me feel weird. If I stare at something too long...I feel like it is looking back at me. If I look really close at my pupils, they look like they are pulsing or I guess you could say buzzing. I feel sick and spinny for usually 3 hours after taking the drug. Somedays, I feel like I am underwater and everything seems ominous and strange to me.I was put on 20mg of celexa because I have been having problems with postpartum depression due to my hormones being all over the place. I guess I do not feel depressed as much but it has been replaced with paranoia, manic episodes (can't get off the floor one day, feeling inspired by all smiley cartoon characters on t.v. the next), and zombie like,"ho-hum I just want to lay on the couch all day" feelings.
Does it continue like this or will I start to feel balanced and happy soon? Is this stuff gonna mess with my brain to the point of changing who I am? When I go off of it, will I be o.k.? I don't want to experience seizures, I hate anxiety and I would rather be horribly depressed then go through anxiety episodes. I guess I am starting to feel worried about the state of my brain and I don't feel entirely comfortable with entrusting the doctors and drug companies to help me.
Posted by crazychickuk on December 27, 2004, at 10:11:44
In reply to Re: buzzing brain, posted by bamboomz on December 27, 2004, at 10:08:30
Hormones u say? bloody hell have you tryed the pill? do you see a gyni for this? i have probs with my hormones too i should be taking metformin for pcos and the pill for some female hormones cus i got to much testosterone ..
How long u been takin celexa for? Try and come of it if you can its obviousley not for you ..
have you tryed viatamin b supplements?
Posted by chemist on December 27, 2004, at 10:31:04
In reply to Re: This Is an Outrage Wyeth/Eli Lilly are Liars!!, posted by crazychickuk on December 27, 2004, at 6:29:54
hello there, chemist here...i find this thread particularly fascinating: there are calls for instigation of legal action against eli lilly, wyeth, and organon - i suspect from the citalopram business that forest ought to be included as well - yet not one implicates action/inaction on the part of the patient. most of us who are capable of navigating the waters of the internet and operating a computer ought to be savvy enough to read the labels on the package in which medication is dispensed. the physician - however rotten they might be - most likely continues to prescribe medication for a patient after discussing the matter with the patient. regardless, patient + physician does not = marriage for life. nor does it include a binding clause to continue to take the medication if it is not working.
tobacco companies in the u.s. have not been model corporate citizens since their inception, but the warning label on the cigarette carton - and the links to emphysema, lung (and other) cancers, and heart disease - states clearly that the product is not good for enhancing one's health.
producers of alcohol-containing beverages do include - by law, i suspect, but no matter - warnings stating that one should monitor their intake of alcohol, do not drive an auto while intoxicated, and that using alcohol while pregnant, for instance, is not a wise choice (to put it mildly).
of course, the liquor store proprietor and convenience store clerk do not require the purchaser to hold a prescription: rather, proof of age (usually) is sufficient. thus, the patron is one's own prescribing physician for cigarettes and alcohol. the clerks do not send their customers from the premises with stern directives regarding addictive potential, withdrawl, adverse effects, and so on.
why should a pharmaceutical company be held liable for a physician and patient agreement? i do qualify this statement not to be inclusive of falsified data, failure in post-marketing, and so forth. i particularly wonder why so many miserable people taking effexor, for example, continue to do so: is the misery offset by something i am not aware? is it a cure for baldness, a fertility-enhancer, an anti-cancer drug? do tell!
here i am at home, surrounded by medical texts and references, but that is not of import: using google and a few search words (celexa and forest and home), i lucked out and am downloading the PDF-format prescribing information from Forest Laboratories, Inc., for Celexa. this is the same information in my PDR, and you can save the $58US by grabbing the information for free (from other manufacturers as well).
all of the answers in re: celexa are contained in this 16-page document just hot off the printer. it is stated that people suffering from major depression - whether taking an AD or not - may exhibit worsening of symptoms and must be monitored. things like anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, psychomotor restlessness, and hypomania are cause (this is from the manufacturer, as are all data) to "consider changing the therapeutic regimen, including possibly discontinuing the medication in patients for whom such symptoms are severe, aprupt in onset, or were not part of the patient's presenting symptoms."
Forest states that Celexa is not approved for treating bipolar disorder. Forst states that Celexa is not to be used in pediatric populations. then, under big-font, bold letters, is the section on precautions for discontinuing Celexa. "During marketing of Celexa and other SSRIs and SNRIs, there have been spontaneous reports of adverse events occurring upon discontinuation of these drugs, particularly when abrupt, including the following: dysphoric mood, irritability, agitation, dizziness, sensory disturbances (e.g., paresthesias such as electric shock sensations), anxiety, confusion, headache, lethargy, emotional lability, insomnia, and hypomania."
i needn't repeat the almost-identical information for effexor, remeron, and (i assume) cymbalta/prozac/symbyax: it's all there, and always has been. those "brain zaps" that seemingly baffle thousands of SSRI/SNRI users are well-known and advertised - for free - as one of many awful side-effects by the very companies that market the drugs.
in addition to mattw84's excellent suggestions, might i offer some of my own observations/suggestions? why not...it's been such a long time...
(1) if you have a temporal lobe problem, i'd suspect hearing/smell oddities: motor coordination impulse/sensory control (in general) might best be found looking toward the cerebrum (frontal? substantia nigra in midbrain?) and for the eye problems - the nystagmus variations don't ring true, although what do i know - cranial nerves (say, 3, 4, and 6); and the wiring further down the way and to the rear, look at the pons/midbrain/medulla and some autonomic contributors (9?, 10?); don't bother with citalopram, as the information concerning "brain zaps" and too many other pieces of bad-voodoo is free, widely-distributed, and pushed by the very folks who make the stuff (and the same goes for effexor and any other med);
(2) if you are inclined to instigate legal action for your continued ingestion of substances that you find not to be of use for your malady, and said ingestion is not required by law nor forced upon you against your will (i.e., it is your choice, as the doctor assesses the situation and writes a prescription: you are hardly bound to take any or all of the medication), please do retain excellent counsel and forward to me the appropriate name(s): despite drinking case upon case of coors light beer, bikini-clad young women did not appear on my doorstep inviting me to a game of beach volleyball and a hot-tub afterwards. the headaches, dry-mouth, expanding gut, and malfunctioning liver are to be replaced by the brewer of the suds;
(3) if you wish further progress in the field of pharmaceutical research for formulating better drugs - keeping in mind the 20-year development process (on average, +/-, and this is before pre-clinical) and the $500,000,000US to $1,000,000,000US cost, all of which stands a great chance of being lost along the way - do not loot the very industry that requires the money to accomodate your needs. on a similar note, why support them at all? why are you putting money into the pockets of the evil producers of the drugs you rely upon to keep you in a state of misery? stop taking the meds and be done with it;
(4) it's good to be back....i've missed you all terribly....all the best, chemist
Posted by crazychickuk on December 27, 2004, at 10:44:24
In reply to hello to all..., posted by chemist on December 27, 2004, at 10:31:04
bloody hell i just wrote an essay and it got lost..
anyways welcome bk chemist so good to hear from you again ..
thats an excellant post couldnt of put it better myself :-)~
Although it took me 3 reads to understand it :-(
what do you think of these withdrawl symptoms 4 mnths from stopping r emeron cold turkey after nearly 2 yrs?
i get the brain zaps when i look at certain things, think about certain things although very failt they r still there, alot of electricity? my eyes also twitch, my ears buz and i get headaches, i feel very tired, lost all motivation, even when im a little hyper i cant be bothered to do things, i never used to be like this even when i was on remeron this is to weird.. even though im not on no meds now i started effexor was only on it for 4 days then stopped that was a mnth ago.. i only went on it to see if it would help with whats going on with me now. and started 2 weeks after stopping remeron .. is my brain ruined for life? will it get betteR? wats going on? i feel ever so confused..
look forward to hearing from you soon
Posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2004, at 16:08:27
In reply to Re: hello to all..., posted by crazychickuk on December 27, 2004, at 10:44:24
I second it Chemist! Okay you're right nobody held a gun to us and said take these meds. The pdocs kind of get you hooked when they say things such as "Don't you want to feel better?" So the next thing you know you have ingested this pill and when you tell him you can't take this drug they insist you need an AD "It will help your anxiety, just give it time." The mistakes have been made by a lot of us. Now, what is the final analysis? How long is this going to last, or will it be permanent. Now I'm afraid to use anything including Beer, which I used to find very relaxing, and it didn't interfere with my ability to work or socialize. Help us out Chemist! Phillipa
Posted by crazychickuk on December 27, 2004, at 16:13:06
In reply to Re: hello to all..., posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2004, at 16:08:27
its like u cut urself with a yelow handled knofe u go to docs they hand u a script for a blue handled knife etc etc ...
Posted by linkadge on December 27, 2004, at 16:28:44
In reply to Re: hello to all..., posted by crazychickuk on December 27, 2004, at 16:13:06
I'm not saying anyone put a gun to my head, nor did anyone put a gun to the heads of those who suffered the extreme and poorly documented side effects of celebrex and viox.
There is certain information that the drug companies would rather not have you know. Information that is reason for the *extremely* low rates of antidepressant use among employees of Glaxo and Lilly.
I just ask to be able to make an informed decision.
Linkadge
Posted by chemist on December 28, 2004, at 18:20:08
In reply to Re: hello to all..., posted by linkadge on December 27, 2004, at 16:28:44
> I'm not saying anyone put a gun to my head, nor did anyone put a gun to the heads of those who suffered the extreme and poorly documented side effects of celebrex and viox.
>
> There is certain information that the drug companies would rather not have you know. Information that is reason for the *extremely* low rates of antidepressant use among employees of Glaxo and Lilly.
>
> I just ask to be able to make an informed decision.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
hello there linkadge, we are all in - or have been in - the same boat at one time or another...yours seems to be in rather bad shape, if i read your posts further below in the correct light: i do hope you make it through the bleak winter (literal and metaphorical) intact with spirits lifted and brighter news to report...i am firmly aligned with your stance in re: many of the medications sampled by either or both of us, and wish you well before digressing into my usual windy prose....be well, and stay well, please...yours, chemist
Posted by chemist on December 28, 2004, at 19:02:07
In reply to Re: hello to all..., posted by crazychickuk on December 27, 2004, at 10:44:24
> bloody hell i just wrote an essay and it got lost..
>
> anyways welcome bk chemist so good to hear from you again ..
>
> thats an excellant post couldnt of put it better myself :-)~
>
> Although it took me 3 reads to understand it :-(
>
> what do you think of these withdrawl symptoms 4 mnths from stopping r emeron cold turkey after nearly 2 yrs?
>
> i get the brain zaps when i look at certain things, think about certain things although very failt they r still there, alot of electricity? my eyes also twitch, my ears buz and i get headaches, i feel very tired, lost all motivation, even when im a little hyper i cant be bothered to do things, i never used to be like this even when i was on remeron this is to weird.. even though im not on no meds now i started effexor was only on it for 4 days then stopped that was a mnth ago.. i only went on it to see if it would help with whats going on with me now. and started 2 weeks after stopping remeron .. is my brain ruined for life? will it get betteR? wats going on? i feel ever so confused..
>
> look forward to hearing from you soonhello donna, it has been some time, yes?...i do not think it is likely that your brief use of remeron and effexor has changed the structural and/or chemical ``picture'' in your brain, yet i am not in your shoes: if all other causes have been more or less dismissed, then the remaining ones warrant further investigation. my favorite antidepressant remains tranylcypromine, and fluvoxamine is a close second. my trials with fluvoxamine - a true SSRI with a wide dosing range - were both fine and no trauma resulted, as best as i can tell: i took them as prescribed when they were needed. wishing you well, all the best, chemist
Posted by linkadge on December 30, 2004, at 14:38:36
In reply to Re: hello to all... » crazychickuk, posted by chemist on December 28, 2004, at 19:02:07
Taking an antidepressant for a short period of time is one thing, but taking an antidepressant for years is another.
Linkadge
Posted by AuntieMel on December 30, 2004, at 14:53:55
In reply to hello to all..., posted by chemist on December 27, 2004, at 10:31:04
Remember, when in doubt "Excuse me?" works...
CB
Posted by chemist on December 30, 2004, at 22:54:51
In reply to Re: welcome back chemist, posted by AuntieMel on December 30, 2004, at 14:53:55
> Remember, when in doubt "Excuse me?" works...
>
> CB
well, yes, i understand that part of it...i am not quite getting the bigger picture: are the antidepressants to be shunned completely, and psychotherapy to be used exclusively? if the therapy fails, are the patients going to sue? no stranger to lopsided or mutual ``failures'' in the patient/doctor relationship myself, i wonder if the medication + therapist system might go the way of the dinosaurs if we collectively disbanded the lot...i would have to reread all of sternbach's papers and get into the lab again - that enough is reason not to rock the boat, methinks....all the best, chemist
Posted by banga on December 31, 2004, at 15:59:36
In reply to Re: welcome back chemist » AuntieMel, posted by chemist on December 30, 2004, at 22:54:51
Hello,
nice to see your posts, I remember seeing them more when I first started perusing this site a few months back.
I have to agree with many of your points RE: how much we blame the drug companies. Tough there is certainly great effort of drug companies to minimize some negative effects of the drugs, as long as they post about potential negative effects, the doctor and consumer have a responsibility to seek out information and make the decisions. Though I personally feel it is my responsibility to be informed, I know not everyone has the resources to do so; and since doctors are the ones who we turn to as experts, they really are the ones that should be informed, and thus convey, potential adverse events and inform their patients...in an earlier post, I had stated how dispensing drugs should happen in the context of a lengthy conversation discussing pros and cons. Every drug has a side effect, including aspirin etc. and should be taken with the understanding that the good comes with potential bads.
Having said that, I have been fairly impressed with my pdocs...thoug they could have done even more RE discussing side effects, my first pdoc often said of side effects "if you have problems urinating (from Cymbalta), go IMMEDIATELY to the urgent care"; and this new one actually has a form that I sign that states she discussed side effects with me.
I dont think the problem lies (solely) with the drug companies, nor with the poor overworked docs, it lies within the health care system that is not built to allow for lenghtier meetings and old-fashioned relationships with docs, and more time and money allowance for continuing education for docs (I can guess that it is hard for docs to both keep up to speed and see enough clients to make money).Anyways, believe it or not I wasn't even going to comment on that. I meant to ask, what tranylcypromine? A TCA?
Posted by ed_uk on December 31, 2004, at 16:22:21
In reply to Re: welcome back chemist » chemist, posted by banga on December 31, 2004, at 15:59:36
>I meant to ask, what tranylcypromine? A TCA?
Hi!
Tranylcypromine is an MAOI. The brand name is Parnate.
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by banga on December 31, 2004, at 16:38:31
In reply to Tranylcypromine » banga, posted by ed_uk on December 31, 2004, at 16:22:21
Oh! Big duh! on my part. Had a feeling I should know, was too lazy to look it up.
thanks!
Posted by dancingstar on December 31, 2004, at 17:01:29
In reply to hello to all..., posted by chemist on December 27, 2004, at 10:31:04
Hi Chemist,
It's not that i completely disagree with you. In fact, I don't for the most part. I specifically asked the family practice doctor that gave me Effexor three years ago what the side effects were, and he told me that there were some sexual side effects but that they probably wouldn't apply to me. I suppose that he was right, I don't believe they did. I wasn't told of any other side effects and never thought to look for any. The warning on my drug label told me something about not driving if I was drowsy, but since I was prescribed E for fatigue, this made no sense to me...and I ignored it.
Though I stopped drinking all alcohol because I noticed that my tolerance for it had decreased, I never associated that with Effexor, nor my fatigue, low blood pressure, which was taken as a sign of my excellent health in spite of my extreme pain that could not be diagnosed. After a year, I had switched doctors, and monthly to semi-monthly I saw the doctor, even had my blood drawn to no avail. No one broached the concept of Effexor being the cause of all of my problems, though about three months before I stopped taking it on my own, my internist did ask, "How is that Effexor working for you?" in a routine kind of way. I believe that the reason for this is because the side effects data is under-reported by Wyeth and why I have encouraged anyone with side effects to report their problems to the FDA, not directly to Wyeth.
I do remember being weepy when I first saw my new internist two years ago and again another time and asked for an increase from 75mg to 150mg. It didn't help at all and, in fact, I became kind of depressed. Thought it was perimenopause. Besides, I couldn't lose weight. Didn't eat. I was hungry. Tired. In pain. I was getting old, couldn't think.
Finally decided to stop taking E as it couldn't hurt, I tried everything else to at least lose weight. Now, Chemist, let me digress here for a moment. I always do something that brings about a miracle in the month of September, every September. This September was no exception. Three days after I stopped taking it, I became, as you can imagine deathly ill. It was only then that I began to learn about E, only then that I began to do the research. Besides some residual pain in the nerves in my neck and back and colitis-like stomach stuff that seems to be getting better, I feel fantastic for the first time in years! Yep, it's a real, live miracle, the fact that I've figured this out with only the help of God 'cause I couldn't find anyone on earth that could solve my health problems, and now they are miniscule by comparison. All I've lost is three years of my life.
In the meantime, thousands of new prescriptions are being written for that drug, and new people are taking it every day without knowing anything whatsoever about it. I've spoken with some of them quite by accident in my daily journeys, and I know that they are not told anything at all about the problems with the drug. Wyeth's reps don't tell the doctors. The doctors don't tell the patients. I do feel, though, that the drug companies are fighting our ability to sue them in the same way the tobacco companies are even though we received no warnings and they have withheld data that we should have had prior to our ever having taken the drug. I would also like to know if our doctors have received incentives or gifts or money or other stuff in exchange for prescribing Effexor.
Maybe this is a good drug under some circumstances, but in my humble opinion it is being vastly oversold to the wrong people for the wrong reasons...and that is a crime to humanity in its own right.
Best wishes for a Happy New Year!
Bebe
Posted by dancingstar on December 31, 2004, at 17:14:22
In reply to Re: buzzing brain, posted by bamboomz on December 27, 2004, at 10:08:30
Is your mom around to ask her how she did without ADs? Honestly. Why mess with it if you don't have to. I know people will not appreciate what I am saying, more than likely, but if there is any way that you can begin to exercise now it would be fabulous for you in every way if you can possibly wait out the post-partum depression until your hormones settle down. That's why I am asking how your mom did. I mean, if it is really awful, you might not have a choice, but if it is something you can bear, mild aerobic exercise is such a better option and will help you in every way possible. Please consider this rather than putting your body through these drugs unless it is a last resort.
Posted by chemist on January 1, 2005, at 0:22:29
In reply to Re: welcome back chemist » chemist, posted by banga on December 31, 2004, at 15:59:36
> Hello,
> nice to see your posts, I remember seeing them more when I first started perusing this site a few months back.
> I have to agree with many of your points RE: how much we blame the drug companies. Tough there is certainly great effort of drug companies to minimize some negative effects of the drugs, as long as they post about potential negative effects, the doctor and consumer have a responsibility to seek out information and make the decisions. Though I personally feel it is my responsibility to be informed, I know not everyone has the resources to do so; and since doctors are the ones who we turn to as experts, they really are the ones that should be informed, and thus convey, potential adverse events and inform their patients...in an earlier post, I had stated how dispensing drugs should happen in the context of a lengthy conversation discussing pros and cons. Every drug has a side effect, including aspirin etc. and should be taken with the understanding that the good comes with potential bads.
> Having said that, I have been fairly impressed with my pdocs...thoug they could have done even more RE discussing side effects, my first pdoc often said of side effects "if you have problems urinating (from Cymbalta), go IMMEDIATELY to the urgent care"; and this new one actually has a form that I sign that states she discussed side effects with me.
> I dont think the problem lies (solely) with the drug companies, nor with the poor overworked docs, it lies within the health care system that is not built to allow for lenghtier meetings and old-fashioned relationships with docs, and more time and money allowance for continuing education for docs (I can guess that it is hard for docs to both keep up to speed and see enough clients to make money).
>
> Anyways, believe it or not I wasn't even going to comment on that. I meant to ask, what tranylcypromine? A TCA?
hello again, chemist here...i find your stance concerning the physician/patient/system refreshing, at least because i agree with you in toto, of course. the range of doctor and patient education is rather extreme, and the burden of being the authority is on the prescribing physician. the days of pre-HMO 3-day work-weeks appear to have largely faded, and malpractice insurance costs are increasing at a very rapid pace. i am guilty of patient non-compliance, although those follies were in the past. i certainly have no desire to sue a former psychiatrist who failed to warn me that drinking alcohol while taking lorazepam would result in memory loss.in any event, tranylcypromine is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI), synthesized in 1948 by chemists at the university of virginia, who were funded by SKF (the drug is marketed now by GSK, under the name of Parnate)...it is an irreversible inhibitor of MAO-A and MAO-B (isoenzymes of MAO, the former responsible for deaminiation of neurotransmitters serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine; the latter almost exclusively deaminates dopamine)......the hydrazine analogs (such as phenelzine, a.k.a. Nardil) hit the literature in the 1950s, although phenelzine was synthesized in the early 1930s.....a very nice class of drugs, in my opinion and experience.....all the best, chemist
Posted by chemist on January 1, 2005, at 0:23:45
In reply to Tranylcypromine » banga, posted by ed_uk on December 31, 2004, at 16:22:21
> >I meant to ask, what tranylcypromine? A TCA?
>
> Hi!
>
> Tranylcypromine is an MAOI. The brand name is Parnate.
>
> Regards,
> Ed.
hello there, chemist here....i did not read your post before replying....all the best, chemist
Posted by chemist on January 1, 2005, at 4:14:46
In reply to Re: hello to all... » chemist, posted by dancingstar on December 31, 2004, at 17:01:29
> Hi Chemist,
>
> It's not that i completely disagree with you. In fact, I don't for the most part. I specifically asked the family practice doctor that gave me Effexor three years ago what the side effects were, and he told me that there were some sexual side effects but that they probably wouldn't apply to me. I suppose that he was right, I don't believe they did. I wasn't told of any other side effects and never thought to look for any. The warning on my drug label told me something about not driving if I was drowsy, but since I was prescribed E for fatigue, this made no sense to me...and I ignored it.
>
> Though I stopped drinking all alcohol because I noticed that my tolerance for it had decreased, I never associated that with Effexor, nor my fatigue, low blood pressure, which was taken as a sign of my excellent health in spite of my extreme pain that could not be diagnosed. After a year, I had switched doctors, and monthly to semi-monthly I saw the doctor, even had my blood drawn to no avail. No one broached the concept of Effexor being the cause of all of my problems, though about three months before I stopped taking it on my own, my internist did ask, "How is that Effexor working for you?" in a routine kind of way. I believe that the reason for this is because the side effects data is under-reported by Wyeth and why I have encouraged anyone with side effects to report their problems to the FDA, not directly to Wyeth.
>
> I do remember being weepy when I first saw my new internist two years ago and again another time and asked for an increase from 75mg to 150mg. It didn't help at all and, in fact, I became kind of depressed. Thought it was perimenopause. Besides, I couldn't lose weight. Didn't eat. I was hungry. Tired. In pain. I was getting old, couldn't think.
>
> Finally decided to stop taking E as it couldn't hurt, I tried everything else to at least lose weight. Now, Chemist, let me digress here for a moment. I always do something that brings about a miracle in the month of September, every September. This September was no exception. Three days after I stopped taking it, I became, as you can imagine deathly ill. It was only then that I began to learn about E, only then that I began to do the research. Besides some residual pain in the nerves in my neck and back and colitis-like stomach stuff that seems to be getting better, I feel fantastic for the first time in years! Yep, it's a real, live miracle, the fact that I've figured this out with only the help of God 'cause I couldn't find anyone on earth that could solve my health problems, and now they are miniscule by comparison. All I've lost is three years of my life.
>
> In the meantime, thousands of new prescriptions are being written for that drug, and new people are taking it every day without knowing anything whatsoever about it. I've spoken with some of them quite by accident in my daily journeys, and I know that they are not told anything at all about the problems with the drug. Wyeth's reps don't tell the doctors. The doctors don't tell the patients. I do feel, though, that the drug companies are fighting our ability to sue them in the same way the tobacco companies are even though we received no warnings and they have withheld data that we should have had prior to our ever having taken the drug. I would also like to know if our doctors have received incentives or gifts or money or other stuff in exchange for prescribing Effexor.
>
> Maybe this is a good drug under some circumstances, but in my humble opinion it is being vastly oversold to the wrong people for the wrong reasons...and that is a crime to humanity in its own right.
>
> Best wishes for a Happy New Year!
> Bebehello there bebe, chemist here..i cannot help but note that you were not taking this medication under the supervision of a mental healthcare practitioner. your family doctor and internist are hardly qualified to monitor your progress on a psychoactive substance and provide it to you for more than 30 days.
a you are aware, the ADR forms (3500) filed with the FDA emanate from all parties involved with a medication, from the manufacturer to the distributor to the patient. further, the FDA does evaluate ADR when making revisions/prohibitions to drug use, and serious conditions - death, coma, hospitalization, debilitation - that are not listed in precribing information and results from any pre- and postmarketing trials are considered first and foremost.
the adverse effects that are known and to be published with prescribing information, not to mention given to you by your pharmacist and to be firmly planted in your psychiatrist's head (although there is no indication you were taking this medication under the supervision of one, please do clarify if i am mistaken), are not given much heft: caveat emptor.
on march 30, 2000, wyeth-ayerst added new safety information to the prescribing information for both efffexor and effexor xr. the old information and the new are provided, and were altered to include more comprehansive warnings concerning all of the side effects continually complained about on this thread. don't take my word for it: see www.fda.gov and medwatch.
before march 30, 2000, wyeth-ayerst stated that discontinuation of effexor (taken for 6 weeks or longer) be tapered over ``at least a 2-week period." after this magical date, the discontinuation symptoms, relationship with dose and duration of use, and wording states that patients tapering the medication be monitored; the time of the taper need be adjusted according to length of use and dosage; and ``discontinuation effects are well known to occur with antidepressants.'' symptoms the are reported to emerge upon discontinuation include confusion, coordination impaired, dysphoria, insomnia, sensory disturbances "(including shock-like electrical sensations)," and others.
in may of 2004, the suicide-risk labeling was added and the discontinuation warnings augmented to note that ``while these events are generally self-limiting, there have been reports of serious discontinuation symptoms.'' it is also recommended that the tapering dose be reupped if the side effects of withdrawl are too uncomfortable. and, of course, the monitoring of the patient is reinforced.
your case is actually proof that the very inappropriate and ill-advised abrupt discontinuation of the medication does not result in the emergence of recurring and debilitating symptoms: you report feeling ``fantastic'' less than 4 months after you stopped a 150 mg/day, 2-year regimen of the medication. this makes you an excellent candidate as a witness for the defense, should wyeth be brought to the table.
the drug reps for pharmaceutical companies are not trained in the sciences or medicine: the next time you run into a nicely-groomed young man or woman unloading samples of their wares from their rental car parked outside your doctor's office, chat them up. you will find that the drug rep demographic includes people formally educated in every subject except the ones they should be for this job.
the free ``educational seminars'' in hawaii and san diego came to a halt over 5 years ago, at a minimum. enticements are limited to pens, notepads, and coffee mugs these days. one should not disregard the willingness of the patient to continue taking the medication as indicating that the drug reps are hardly necessary.
it is common knowledge that it is very difficult to quit smoking cigarettes and, for many people, to quit drinking alcohol. the lawsuits which targeted the tobacco industry had to do with health risks that were known and undisclosed at least 50 years ago, and i suppose hepatic failure from excessive alcohol use will be the basis of the lawsuits targeting the manufacturers of alcohol.
venlafaxine was patented in 1985 (u.s.), and was still in clinical trials in 1990: the ADR filing frequency is (as you are aware) quarterly after FDA approved the NDA, then yearly for three years hence. wyeth - like any other company - regards many data as proprietary and ought not release it: this includes drugs under development and results from clinical trials after the IND is filed.
if only to avoid people filing lawsuits because of their own non-compliance, negligence, ignorance, or that of their prescribing doctor, why would any drug company keep any information that could be used against them a secret?
the article in front of me, taken from NEJM in 2001, warns of the new coxib drugs - those that were just pulled - as potentially being a threat in re: thombosis and renal trouble, not to mention questionable efficacy. the enzyme targeted by the cox-2 inhibitors was isolated less than 15 years ago: that the drugs were pipelined via FDA fast-track and were used off-label and in large doses for long times in a population that, in general, is known to be taking other meds (i.e., those for heart, kidney, stomach, or arthritis problems), it is hardly surprising that trouble has ensued.
i wish you a happy new year, and only hope that renewed interest on the part of all patients - myself included - in self-education is on the list of resolutions. all the best, chemist
Posted by dancingstar on January 1, 2005, at 4:24:29
In reply to additional thoughts... » dancingstar, posted by chemist on January 1, 2005, at 4:14:46
I was given Effexor by a family practice physician and disabled by it for three years with no warning that it was to do any harm to me. No one told me that tapering use of the drug would be necessary, and there were times that I thought I would die during the past three months. I hate Effexor and the company that makes it for allowing me and thousands of others to take it when we should not be allowed to. I was never depressed but took it for mild fatigue that became chronic and severe while on Effexor. There is no defense to that in my opinion.
Posted by chemist on January 1, 2005, at 4:42:35
In reply to Re: additional thoughts..., posted by dancingstar on January 1, 2005, at 4:24:29
> I was given Effexor by a family practice physician and disabled by it for three years with no warning that it was to do any harm to me. No one told me that tapering use of the drug would be necessary, and there were times that I thought I would die during the past three months. I hate Effexor and the company that makes it for allowing me and thousands of others to take it when we should not be allowed to. I was never depressed but took it for mild fatigue that became chronic and severe while on Effexor. There is no defense to that in my opinion.
well, how about going after the whole bunch? wyeth does not "allow" any person to take effexor: the drug requires a prescription, the doctor must have a medical license and a DEA number - presumably after completing college, medical school, and other education - and the FDA must have approved of the drug before any "allowances" are made. that is a pretty long and far from exhaustive list. besides, the doctor is deserving of review from the medical board, if not severe punishment: who prescribes a medication indicated for alleviating depression - and later, GAD - for ridding a patient of their self-admitted non-existing depression but rather fatigue? that person is the one who "allowed" you to take effexor, not wyeth. all the best, chemist
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