![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 52. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by KaraS on December 18, 2004, at 18:40:29
Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
How much weight have you gained?
Have any of you been on this for several years?
Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
Posted by maddog on December 19, 2004, at 4:06:30
In reply to Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by KaraS on December 18, 2004, at 18:40:29
> Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
In the initial weeks I had brain fog. However, this passed in about 3-4 weeks. There may be some minor fog when increasing dose.
>
> Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
I definitely have more energy, motivation and less anxiety, depression. Initially, because of the insomnia I was napping more during the day, however, when I was awake I had energy. In fact, at work I was a terror. :)>
> How much weight have you gained?I've gained 7 pounds. This is partly to diet and partly to the fact that I have strong hypotension from Nardil which makes it difficult for me to exercise.
>
> Have any of you been on this for several years?
>No, I have been on N for 4 months.
> Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
No, I have only used the new N.
>
>
> (Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)No problem! It's a big decision and N is a powerful medication.
maddog
Posted by mattdds on December 19, 2004, at 5:56:16
In reply to Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by KaraS on December 18, 2004, at 18:40:29
> Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
Hate to say it, but Nardil definitely fogged me out pretty badly. I'm forgetful as it is, but this really accentuated it. I was forgetting things left and right, spacing out. My wife called me the "Happy Nardil Zombie".
>
> Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
>Not like Parnate did. Nardil, for me, was more of a "comfort drug" - good anxiolytic and mood lifter, as you put it. I felt much more comfortable in social situations, and had a dramatic turnaround of my social life. I didn't worry about *anything*! Not even my spaciness!
> How much weight have you gained?
I may have gained 5 pounds or so when I used it, weight is not much of an issue for me.
>
> Have any of you been on this for several years?I believe I was on it for nearly a year.
> Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
Can't answer that one, I only took the "new" Nardil.
>
>
> (Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)No problem, I had lots of anxiety when I started Nardil. Most of my worry was wasted time, and none of my fears materialized.
Nardil is one of the 3 medications that helped me. The other two were Klonopin and Ambien. I've tried nearly every other antidepressant. This one was the only one that helped.
I had to come off it because of a couple of reasons. Number one was the "zombification". Number two, was that I was paranoid about being on it in the military...it's a very obscure drug to most p-docs. Might be too much to swallow for a military p-doc.
Overall, it can be a very helpful med for lots of people. You *may* just have to live with a few drawbacks about it. Also, the benefits might well outweigh these.
Best of luck,
Matt
Posted by SLS on December 19, 2004, at 6:24:28
In reply to Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by KaraS on December 18, 2004, at 18:40:29
Hi Kara.
> Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog?
Decreased. When it worked for me, I had never thought any more clearly.
> Has this medication given you more energy
Yes.
> and motivation
Yes.
> or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
Definitely mood lifting.
> How much weight have you gained?
Ouch.
If one doesn't monitor what they eat and use the scale regularly, it can get away from you. 30 pounds.
> Have any of you been on this for several years?
Unfortunately, it pooped-out on me within a few months.
> Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
N/A
> (Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)Sorry that my answers are so terse, but I have run out of energy and motivation to post very much. I found Nardil to be a better drug than Parnate to attack anhedonia and brighten mood. It is probably more serotonergic than Parnate.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
- Scott
Posted by sfy on December 19, 2004, at 11:53:43
In reply to Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by KaraS on December 18, 2004, at 18:40:29
> Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
Brain fog was not an issue for me - good or bad.
> Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
My mood was fairly stable when I was taking Nardil so I didn't see any appreciable change. I don't recall having any noticeable increase in energy or motivation. What Nardil did for me was decrease my anxiety and make me better able to navigate comfortably in social situations (as well as to undertake a somewhat effective course of CBT).
> How much weight have you gained?
I didn't have any significant weight gain while on Nardil.
> Have any of you been on this for several years?
I took Nardil for about 2 1/2 years.
> Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
The switchover was after my time.
Posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 13:47:30
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by maddog on December 19, 2004, at 4:06:30
> I definitely have more energy, motivation and less anxiety, depression. Initially, because of the insomnia I was napping more during the day, however, when I was awake I had energy. In fact, at work I was a terror. :)How were you able to sleep during the day if you're working? If I were at work and feeling that mid-afternoon exhaustion that others on Nardil describe, how can I counteract that? Normally I would drink a lot of coffee but you can't do that on an MAOI, can you?
> > How much weight have you gained?
>
> I've gained 7 pounds. This is partly to diet and partly to the fact that I have strong hypotension from Nardil which makes it difficult for me to exercise.
Does that include walking as well? I'd like to be able to walk at a decent pace for 30 minutes a day. Is something so minimally demanding a problem for you now?
> > Have any of you been on this for several years?
> >
>
> No, I have been on N for 4 months.I assume you're planning on staying on it for a while?
> > (Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
>
> No problem! It's a big decision and N is a powerful medication.
>
> maddogYes, but powerful is good, right? Thanks so much for your help!
Kara
Posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 13:56:44
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past) » KaraS, posted by mattdds on December 19, 2004, at 5:56:16
> > Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
>
> Hate to say it, but Nardil definitely fogged me out pretty badly. I'm forgetful as it is, but this really accentuated it. I was forgetting things left and right, spacing out. My wife called me the "Happy Nardil Zombie".Were you just forgetful or were you also not able to function well at work?
> > Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
> >
>
> Not like Parnate did. Nardil, for me, was more of a "comfort drug" - good anxiolytic and mood lifter, as you put it. I felt much more comfortable in social situations, and had a dramatic turnaround of my social life. I didn't worry about *anything*! Not even my spaciness!Sounds like a mixed blessing. I would love for my anxiety to go away to that degree but I'm also afraid that if I don't have any worry, then I won't be able to dig myself out of the hole I'm in right now.
> > How much weight have you gained?
>
> I may have gained 5 pounds or so when I used it, weight is not much of an issue for me.You're lucky.
> > Have any of you been on this for several years?
>
> I believe I was on it for nearly a year.
>
> > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
>
> Can't answer that one, I only took the "new" Nardil.I wonder if the old Nardil would have made a difference for you...
> > (Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
>
> No problem, I had lots of anxiety when I started Nardil. Most of my worry was wasted time, and none of my fears materialized.They don't call it General Anxiety Disorder for nothing!
> Nardil is one of the 3 medications that helped me. The other two were Klonopin and Ambien. I've tried nearly every other antidepressant. This one was the only one that helped.
>
> I had to come off it because of a couple of reasons. Number one was the "zombification". Number two, was that I was paranoid about being on it in the military...it's a very obscure drug to most p-docs. Might be too much to swallow for a military p-doc.I was going to suggest again that you try the old Nardil but I can certainly understand your concerns now. Maybe someday in the future though.
> Overall, it can be a very helpful med for lots of people. You *may* just have to live with a few drawbacks about it. Also, the benefits might well outweigh these.It always comes down to weighing the pros and cons. Unfortunately there are few magic bullets.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> MattThanks for your input,
K
Posted by gardenergirl on December 19, 2004, at 13:57:42
In reply to Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by KaraS on December 18, 2004, at 18:40:29
> Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
No brain fog that I've noticed. I don't have ADHD, but I can be inattentive at times. This hasn't changed either way.
>
> Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?It initially gave me more energy and motivation. Very anxiolytic. In fact, I did not realize my depression had a strong anxiety component to it until I realized how confident I was feeling. All of this has faded a bit, but it is still quite effective for me.
>
> How much weight have you gained?Oh lord, do I have to say? Um, signficant weight gain, which is causing some problems with stamina and aches and pains. I basically started binge eating with sweets once I started Nardil. I never binged before. It's as if the part of the brain that tells you "enough" is missing or disconnected somehow. I let it get way out of hand, and now even exercising is a trial because I've lost so much endurance. Hindsight: I would monitor my eating scrupulously at first to make sure I don't develop the bad habits that got me into this.
>
> Have any of you been on this for several years?About a year and 3 months
>
> Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?I've only taken the new.
>
>
> (Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)Good luck.
gg
Posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 14:02:20
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past) » KaraS, posted by SLS on December 19, 2004, at 6:24:28
Thanks Scott,
Your answers were short but to the point - and very helpful. I didn't realize that Nardil had helped you so much, albeit briefly. I had thought that Parnate + desipramine was the only thing that had worked for you. Wish I could tell you why your body is so good at returning to homeostasis. My fingers are crossed for you that the nortriptyline and Omega 3s will help you.
Kara
Posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 14:08:23
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past) » KaraS, posted by sfy on December 19, 2004, at 11:53:43
> > Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
>
> Brain fog was not an issue for me - good or bad.
>
> > Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
>
> My mood was fairly stable when I was taking Nardil so I didn't see any appreciable change. I don't recall having any noticeable increase in energy or motivation. What Nardil did for me was decrease my anxiety and make me better able to navigate comfortably in social situations (as well as to undertake a somewhat effective course of CBT).
>
> > How much weight have you gained?
>
> I didn't have any significant weight gain while on Nardil.
>
> > Have any of you been on this for several years?
>
> I took Nardil for about 2 1/2 years.
>
> > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
>
> The switchover was after my time.
I wonder how much of the fact that you didn't have terrible side effects was due to the fact that you took the old formula? It seemed like it was a helpful medication for you. Why did you go off of it?Do you still practice the CBT method? If so, is it still helpful?
Also, since your experiment with selegiline wasn't very successful, what have you decided to try next?
Thanks for taking the time to answer my post.
Kara
Posted by maddog on December 19, 2004, at 14:29:37
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past) » maddog, posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 13:47:30
>
> > I definitely have more energy, motivation and less anxiety, depression. Initially, because of the insomnia I was napping more during the day, however, when I was awake I had energy. In fact, at work I was a terror. :)
>
> How were you able to sleep during the day if you're working? If I were at work and feeling that mid-afternoon exhaustion that others on Nardil describe, how can I counteract that? Normally I would drink a lot of coffee but you can't do that on an MAOI, can you?I didn't at work but I felt like it and then the moment would pass. On the weekends I would sleep at midday. Coffee you can drnk.
>
>
> > > How much weight have you gained?
> >
> > I've gained 7 pounds. This is partly to diet and partly to the fact that I have strong hypotension from Nardil which makes it difficult for me to exercise.
>
> Does that include walking as well? I'd like to be able to walk at a decent pace for 30 minutes a day. Is something so minimally demanding a problem for you now?Nope, that would be fine. I used to run 30K a week, I can't do that now.
>
>
> > > Have any of you been on this for several years?
> > >
> >
> > No, I have been on N for 4 months.
>
> I assume you're planning on staying on it for a while?Yes, it is working well for me.
>
>
> > > (Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
> >
> > No problem! It's a big decision and N is a powerful medication.
> >
> > maddog
>
> Yes, but powerful is good, right? Thanks so much for your help!
>
> Kara
>
>
>
Posted by Phillipa on December 19, 2004, at 16:26:54
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by maddog on December 19, 2004, at 14:29:37
Sorry to sound so uninformed, but I didn't know there was an old formula Nardil, and a new formula Nardil. How are they different? Why don't pdocs RX it? I've never met anyone on it. I've only been RX'd SSRIs except years ago a TCA. I worked in nursing in the hospital when I was able to work and I was always told they were too dangerous with too many side effects. I loved working in psych and loved the pts. Who would have thought I would become one! Thanks for any info you can provide. Phillipa
Posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 17:26:50
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by gardenergirl on December 19, 2004, at 13:57:42
> > Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
>
> No brain fog that I've noticed. I don't have ADHD, but I can be inattentive at times. This hasn't changed either way.
> >
> > Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
>
> It initially gave me more energy and motivation. Very anxiolytic. In fact, I did not realize my depression had a strong anxiety component to it until I realized how confident I was feeling. All of this has faded a bit, but it is still quite effective for me.
> >
> > How much weight have you gained?
>
> Oh lord, do I have to say? Um, signficant weight gain, which is causing some problems with stamina and aches and pains. I basically started binge eating with sweets once I started Nardil. I never binged before. It's as if the part of the brain that tells you "enough" is missing or disconnected somehow. I let it get way out of hand, and now even exercising is a trial because I've lost so much endurance. Hindsight: I would monitor my eating scrupulously at first to make sure I don't develop the bad habits that got me into this.
> >
> > Have any of you been on this for several years?
>
> About a year and 3 months
> >
> > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
>
> I've only taken the new.
> >
> >
> > (Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
>
> Good luck.
>
> gggg,
I'm glad Nardil gave you energy/motivation without the brain fog. The weight gain issue is a scary one though unfortunately I think that any of the anti-anxiety ADs will do that. This one maybe more than some of the others though. Someone either here or on the Yahoo MAOI board said that they were able to get things under control when they went on a low carb diet - then the cravings for sweets eventually disappeared.Thanks again, gg
-k
Posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 17:29:29
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by maddog on December 19, 2004, at 14:29:37
> >
> > > I definitely have more energy, motivation and less anxiety, depression. Initially, because of the insomnia I was napping more during the day, however, when I was awake I had energy. In fact, at work I was a terror. :)
> >
> > How were you able to sleep during the day if you're working? If I were at work and feeling that mid-afternoon exhaustion that others on Nardil describe, how can I counteract that? Normally I would drink a lot of coffee but you can't do that on an MAOI, can you?
>
> I didn't at work but I felt like it and then the moment would pass. On the weekends I would sleep at midday. Coffee you can drnk.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > > > How much weight have you gained?
> > >
> > > I've gained 7 pounds. This is partly to diet and partly to the fact that I have strong hypotension from Nardil which makes it difficult for me to exercise.
> >
> > Does that include walking as well? I'd like to be able to walk at a decent pace for 30 minutes a day. Is something so minimally demanding a problem for you now?
>
> Nope, that would be fine. I used to run 30K a week, I can't do that now.
>
> >
> >
> > > > Have any of you been on this for several years?
> > > >
> > >
> > > No, I have been on N for 4 months.
> >
> > I assume you're planning on staying on it for a while?
>
> Yes, it is working well for me.
>
>
> >
> >
> > > > (Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
> > >
> > > No problem! It's a big decision and N is a powerful medication.
> > >
> > > maddog
> >
> > Yes, but powerful is good, right? Thanks so much for your help!
> >
> > Kara
> >Thanks again. Sounds like the costs/side effects have been well worth it for you. I wish you continued success on it.
Kara
Posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 17:33:19
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by Phillipa on December 19, 2004, at 16:26:54
> Sorry to sound so uninformed, but I didn't know there was an old formula Nardil, and a new formula Nardil. How are they different? Why don't pdocs RX it? I've never met anyone on it. I've only been RX'd SSRIs except years ago a TCA. I worked in nursing in the hospital when I was able to work and I was always told they were too dangerous with too many side effects. I loved working in psych and loved the pts. Who would have thought I would become one! Thanks for any info you can provide. Phillipa
I don't know that much about it other than some people have greatly preferred the old formula. The new formula is the only thing available in the states. I'm told that the old formula is available in Europe (or at least in the UK). I think there have been threads on this here before so you might want to do a search. I plan to do that a little later myself.-K
Posted by Spotcheck on December 19, 2004, at 18:27:11
In reply to Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by KaraS on December 18, 2004, at 18:40:29
> Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
Yes, I have discovered that my short term memory is all but gone. It used to be outstanding and is critical for humans to function well in this world.
> Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
All of the above, which is reason I stick with it.
> How much weight have you gained?
Since I began taking Nardil in 1978, I would say that I have gained 50 pounds in the last 26 years. Nardil causes "carbohydrate starvation." It's a side-effect of course and it will cause you to gain some weight -- if you have to take it long enough that is.
> Have any of you been on this for several years?
I have been taking 37.5 mg of Nardil for 26 years. I should have begun taking in 7 years sooner though. I found myself in a serious bind. My Psychiatrist in the mid 1970s did not know what else to prescribe for me, so I went back to college and in the process of earning my BA in Psychology -- of all subjects -- I finally ran across a fairly good discussion of the way it is believed the human nervous system works. Once I saw that I could tell my Psychiatrist that we had to try to inhibit either Catetchol O - Methyl Transferase or Mono Amine Oxidase. In theory, inhibiting either one should increase the concentrations of neurotransmitters at synaptic sites.
I know of no medication that works on COMT, but I do know several that work on MAO. I selected Nardil because one can combine it with other medications -- if necessary. Hence, I was able to save my life.
> Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
I sure have. My experience is unique, but I take exactly 37.5 mg of "new" Nardil the same that I used to take of "old" Nardil. This is probably true for most people, but I do know people who do not respond well if at all to "new" Nardil anymore. As a result I made a elixir I call Liquid Nardil, which works extremely well, but it's expensive. Still, it does what Pfizer's "new" Nardil will not do in some people.
Understand, "new" Nardil is generic Nardil. That is all that is made anywhere in the world these days including England where Link UK makes a generic Nardil and Australia where Link AUS makes generic Nardil, but also puts the old orange Sucrose coating on it -- which makes it appear to be "old" Nardil, but it's not.>(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
No problem at all Kara. Interesting survey though.
Dave
Posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 19:03:20
In reply to Nardil Veteran » KaraS, posted by Spotcheck on December 19, 2004, at 18:27:11
> > Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
>
> Yes, I have discovered that my short term memory is all but gone. It used to be outstanding and is critical for humans to function well in this world.That happens with age anyway. How can you be sure it's the Nardil (or maybe I should say how can you know how much of the result can be attributed to each factor) if it's over a period of 26 years?
>
> > Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
>
> All of the above, which is reason I stick with it.
>It's amazing to me that it has worked for you for so long.
> > How much weight have you gained?
>
> Since I began taking Nardil in 1978, I would say that I have gained 50 pounds in the last 26 years. Nardil causes "carbohydrate starvation." It's a side-effect of course and it will cause you to gain some weight -- if you have to take it long enough that is.Wish there were some way to block that one side effect. Why does Nardil cause this more than other meds I wonder (or maybe it's in line with the sedating TCAs)?
> > Have any of you been on this for several years?
>
> I have been taking 37.5 mg of Nardil for 26 years. I should have begun taking in 7 years sooner though. I found myself in a serious bind. My Psychiatrist in the mid 1970s did not know what else to prescribe for me, so I went back to college and in the process of earning my BA in Psychology -- of all subjects -- I finally ran across a fairly good discussion of the way it is believed the human nervous system works. Once I saw that I could tell my Psychiatrist that we had to try to inhibit either Catetchol O - Methyl Transferase or Mono Amine Oxidase. In theory, inhibiting either one should increase the concentrations of neurotransmitters at synaptic sites.
>Wow, that is quite a story. Good for you for being so on top of things even way back then when so much less was known about antidepressants.
> I know of no medication that works on COMT, but I do know several that work on MAO. I selected Nardil because one can combine it with other medications -- if necessary. Hence, I was able to save my life.
>
> > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
>> I sure have. My experience is unique, but I take exactly 37.5 mg of "new" Nardil the same that I used to take of "old" Nardil. This is probably true for most people, but I do know people who do not respond well if at all to "new" Nardil anymore. As a result I made a elixir I call Liquid Nardil, which works extremely well, but it's expensive. Still, it does what Pfizer's "new" Nardil will not do in some people.
> Understand, "new" Nardil is generic Nardil. That is all that is made anywhere in the world these days including England where Link UK makes a generic Nardil and Australia where Link AUS makes generic Nardil, but also puts the old orange Sucrose coating on it -- which makes it appear to be "old" Nardil, but it's not.So even if the stuff from the UK is not the original Nardil, could it also be that it is just a better generic than what we have in the U.S.? Or do you think that the difference in people's responses is more psychological because they think they're getting the "old Nardil"
So what is it exactly that you do to the Nardil you buy to make it liquid and why is it better?
Have you never wanted to try anything else in all of these years? Actually, it's probably wise that you didn't. You read so many posts here of people going off of a medication but they can never get that original good response back again when they restart on it.
> >(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
>
> No problem at all Kara. Interesting survey though.
>
> DaveThanks for taking the time to fill out my "survey".
K
Posted by Phillipa on December 19, 2004, at 19:30:46
In reply to Re: Nardil Veteran » Spotcheck, posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 19:03:20
Just started a search as you suggested on Nardil to compare old and new Nardil. WOW! Took me back to 2001 and would you believe everyone was dealing with the same issues. Meds not working after the first time, Effexor W/D problems already an issue, etc. The only difference now is more new names of meds. Take a look History repeats itself even on Babble. Phillipa
Posted by Spotcheck on December 19, 2004, at 22:22:07
In reply to Re: Nardil Veteran » Spotcheck, posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 19:03:20
> > > Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
> > Yes, I have discovered that my short term memory is all but gone. It used to be outstanding and is critical for humans to function well in this world.>That happens with age anyway. How can you be sure it's the Nardil (or maybe I should say how can you know how much of the result can be attributed to each factor) if it's over a period of 26 years?
Because while my pathological anxiety and depression were allievated for the most part, it was the first side-effect I noticed in 1978.
> > > Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
> > All of the above, which is reason I stick with it.
> It's amazing to me that it has worked for you for so long.Had it ever stopped working, and I will admit that Pfizer's reformulation was a bit of a trying time for many of us, I would be dead.
> > > How much weight have you gained?
> > Since I began taking Nardil in 1978, I would say that I have gained 50 pounds in the last 26 years. Nardil causes "carbohydrate starvation." It's a side-effect of course and it will cause you to gain some weight -- if you have to take it long enough that is.
> Wish there were some way to block that one side effect. Why does Nardil cause this more than other meds I wonder (or maybe it's in line with the sedating TCAs)?Perhaps, but it most assuredly causes the "carbohydrate starvation" I mentioned earlier. It's very hard to resist. Hence, most people end up having to work out much harder just to keep this under control and they still gain some weight.
> > > Have any of you been on this for several years?
> >
> > I have been taking 37.5 mg of Nardil for 26 years. I should have begun taking in 7 years sooner though. I found myself in a serious bind. My Psychiatrist in the mid 1970s did not know what else to prescribe for me, so I went back to college and in the process of earning my BA in Psychology -- of all subjects -- I finally ran across a fairly good discussion of the way it is believed the human nervous system works. Once I saw that I could tell my Psychiatrist that we had to try to inhibit either Catetchol O - Methyl Transferase or Mono Amine Oxidase. In theory, inhibiting either one should increase the concentrations of neurotransmitters at synaptic sites.
> Wow, that is quite a story. Good for you for being so on top of things even way back then when so much less was known about antidepressants.When you know your life hangs in the balance, you would not believe what you can drive yourself to do. I had no real interest in Psychology at all, and considered the program I went through at the University of Missouri to be weak. The Natural Sciences fascinate and mathematics fascinate me much more than other subjects, and they always have.
> > I know of no medication that works on COMT, but I do know several that work on MAO. I selected Nardil because one can combine it with other medications -- if necessary. Hence, I was able to save my life.
> >
> > > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
> >
>
> > I sure have. My experience is unique, but I take exactly 37.5 mg of "new" Nardil the same that I used to take of "old" Nardil. This is probably true for most people, but I do know people who do not respond well if at all to "new" Nardil anymore. As a result I made a elixir I call Liquid Nardil, which works extremely well, but it's expensive. Still, it does what Pfizer's "new" Nardil will not do in some people.> > Understand, "new" Nardil is generic Nardil. That is all that is made anywhere in the world these days including England where Link UK makes a generic Nardil and Australia where Link AUS makes generic Nardil, but also puts the old orange Sucrose coating on it -- which makes it appear to be "old" Nardil, but it's not.
> So even if the stuff from the UK is not the original Nardil, could it also be that it is just a better generic than what we have in the U.S.?No. I can tell you the excipients of all of the known forms of Nardil made today, including "old" Nardil. You have to understand that the excipients of any medication actually determine how the active ingredient, in this case Phenelzine Sulfate is metabolized. If your body does not metabolize it, and I know some people for whom this is indeed the case, you have to make some hard choices to make.
>Or do you think that the difference in people's responses is more psychological because they think they're getting the "old Nardil"
No, I do not think it's psychological at all, especially if one has an established history of this medication being efficacious. If it does not work for one, that's a completely different story.
> So what is it exactly that you do to the Nardil you buy to make it liquid and why is it better?
I make an elixir and I do not do a thing to any one else's Nardil. There's not enough Phenelzine Sulfate in those tablet to make my elixir. 15 mg is not very much. I start from scratch and make my own. That was the point of this exercise - to come up with a functional equivalent for "old" Nardil for people for whom "new" Nardil does not work. Of course I was the first Clinical trial. This is not FDA approved and is much less efficient than any Nardil tablet, but I have save at least one person's life with it. Otherwise, it was suicide for him (a fate several of his relatives have suffered.)
It is very simple. The expense is purchasing 10 grams of Phenelzine Sulfate or Phenelzine HCL to make your first liter. I do not synthesize these myself, or it might be much cheaper. But the idea is that others can do this for themselves with my assistance via e-mail -- if necessary. It bypasses the entire American Medical Establishment. That means, no more Pharmaceutical companies; no more Psychiatrists; no more prescriptions, and no more Pharmacies. You will need a very good chemical company though and some simple equipment. I have half a mind to do this to several other medications just to demonstrate the power of the technique. Problem is I do not take them. I could not in good conscience offer something I had not made and taken myself.
> Have you never wanted to try anything else in
all of these years?Only because of the side-effects. To that end I found the best Psychiatrist I could find in Dr. John P. Feighner, formerly the head of Feighner Research Institute in San Diego, CA. Now he is on the Board of Directors of Innapharma, Inc. and only sees select patients. He's cashing in after a long an distinguished career. I do not blame him one bit as he has been in the trenches fighting the worse forms of these illnesses for most of his adult life.
We tried everything reasonable and several unreasonable treatment alternatives in 1984 through 1985. In fact, I pushed the field of Psychiatry as far as it goes and had Stereotatic limbic leucotomy based upon his recommendation. It actually helped some and forced me to reduce the amount of Nardil I must take from 45 mg to 37.5 mg. When those lesions kicked in I had no choice but to cut back or I would be up all night. Hence, I did exactly that, but my goal was eliminate the need for the medication entirely. I now believe that once must actually alter genes in order to achieve this end. That or perhaps use fetal stem cells to replace damaged neurons or receptors of neurons.
>Actually, it's probably wise that you didn't. You read so many posts here of people going off of a medication but they can never get that original good response back again when they restart on it.
I just never have had that problem with Nardil. If I stop taking it, when I resume it works just exactly the same for me.
> > >(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
> >
> > No problem at all Kara. Interesting survey though.
> >
> > Dave
>
> Thanks for taking the time to fill out my "survey".
>
> K
Posted by cosis on December 20, 2004, at 0:47:51
In reply to Nardil Veteran » KaraS, posted by Spotcheck on December 19, 2004, at 18:27:11
> > Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
>
> Yes, I have discovered that my short term memory is all but gone. It used to be outstanding and is critical for humans to function well in this world.
>
> > Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
>
> All of the above, which is reason I stick with it.
>
> > How much weight have you gained?
>
> Since I began taking Nardil in 1978, I would say that I have gained 50 pounds in the last 26 years. Nardil causes "carbohydrate starvation." It's a side-effect of course and it will cause you to gain some weight -- if you have to take it long enough that is.
>
> > Have any of you been on this for several years?
>
> I have been taking 37.5 mg of Nardil for 26 years. I should have begun taking in 7 years sooner though. I found myself in a serious bind. My Psychiatrist in the mid 1970s did not know what else to prescribe for me, so I went back to college and in the process of earning my BA in Psychology -- of all subjects -- I finally ran across a fairly good discussion of the way it is believed the human nervous system works. Once I saw that I could tell my Psychiatrist that we had to try to inhibit either Catetchol O - Methyl Transferase or Mono Amine Oxidase. In theory, inhibiting either one should increase the concentrations of neurotransmitters at synaptic sites.
>
> I know of no medication that works on COMT, but I do know several that work on MAO. I selected Nardil because one can combine it with other medications -- if necessary. Hence, I was able to save my life.
>
> > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
>
> I sure have. My experience is unique, but I take exactly 37.5 mg of "new" Nardil the same that I used to take of "old" Nardil. This is probably true for most people, but I do know people who do not respond well if at all to "new" Nardil anymore. As a result I made a elixir I call Liquid Nardil, which works extremely well, but it's expensive. Still, it does what Pfizer's "new" Nardil will not do in some people.
> Understand, "new" Nardil is generic Nardil. That is all that is made anywhere in the world these days including England where Link UK makes a generic Nardil and Australia where Link AUS makes generic Nardil, but also puts the old orange Sucrose coating on it -- which makes it appear to be "old" Nardil, but it's not.
>
> >(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
>
> No problem at all Kara. Interesting survey though.
>
> Dave
Carb starvation is right! I never had such a craving for carbs until I started Nardil. It's almost like being addicted to carbs. I have successfully learned to control it though and haven't gained any additional weight.The maple syrup and waffles killed me! I gained about 20 pounds in all... You must resist the cravings!
Posted by KaraS on December 20, 2004, at 8:50:31
In reply to Re: Nardil Veteran, posted by cosis on December 20, 2004, at 0:47:51
> > > Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
> >
> > Yes, I have discovered that my short term memory is all but gone. It used to be outstanding and is critical for humans to function well in this world.
> >
> > > Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
> >
> > All of the above, which is reason I stick with it.
> >
> > > How much weight have you gained?
> >
> > Since I began taking Nardil in 1978, I would say that I have gained 50 pounds in the last 26 years. Nardil causes "carbohydrate starvation." It's a side-effect of course and it will cause you to gain some weight -- if you have to take it long enough that is.
> >
> > > Have any of you been on this for several years?
> >
> > I have been taking 37.5 mg of Nardil for 26 years. I should have begun taking in 7 years sooner though. I found myself in a serious bind. My Psychiatrist in the mid 1970s did not know what else to prescribe for me, so I went back to college and in the process of earning my BA in Psychology -- of all subjects -- I finally ran across a fairly good discussion of the way it is believed the human nervous system works. Once I saw that I could tell my Psychiatrist that we had to try to inhibit either Catetchol O - Methyl Transferase or Mono Amine Oxidase. In theory, inhibiting either one should increase the concentrations of neurotransmitters at synaptic sites.
> >
> > I know of no medication that works on COMT, but I do know several that work on MAO. I selected Nardil because one can combine it with other medications -- if necessary. Hence, I was able to save my life.
> >
> > > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
> >
> > I sure have. My experience is unique, but I take exactly 37.5 mg of "new" Nardil the same that I used to take of "old" Nardil. This is probably true for most people, but I do know people who do not respond well if at all to "new" Nardil anymore. As a result I made a elixir I call Liquid Nardil, which works extremely well, but it's expensive. Still, it does what Pfizer's "new" Nardil will not do in some people.
> > Understand, "new" Nardil is generic Nardil. That is all that is made anywhere in the world these days including England where Link UK makes a generic Nardil and Australia where Link AUS makes generic Nardil, but also puts the old orange Sucrose coating on it -- which makes it appear to be "old" Nardil, but it's not.
> >
> > >(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
> >
> > No problem at all Kara. Interesting survey though.
> >
> > Dave
>
>
> Carb starvation is right! I never had such a craving for carbs until I started Nardil. It's almost like being addicted to carbs. I have successfully learned to control it though and haven't gained any additional weight.
>
> The maple syrup and waffles killed me! I gained about 20 pounds in all... You must resist the cravings!
Have you ever been on a sedating TCA? I had a huge appetite on them including increased carb cravings (which I get anyway). I was wondering if this is comparable or could this actually be worse?
Posted by KaraS on December 20, 2004, at 9:04:29
In reply to Re: Nardil Veteran » KaraS, posted by Spotcheck on December 19, 2004, at 22:22:07
> Perhaps, but it most assuredly causes the "carbohydrate starvation" I mentioned earlier. It's very hard to resist. Hence, most people end up having to work out much harder just to keep this under control and they still gain some weight.
Is this worse than the "carb. starvation" that you get with a sedating TCA? I've had that problem before.
Have you ever tried Parnate or Marplan?
I wonder if there's as much weight gain with Marplan.
> When you know your life hangs in the balance, you would not believe what you can drive yourself to do.I feel that my life is the balance right now too...
> > > > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
> > >
> >
> > > I sure have. My experience is unique, but I take exactly 37.5 mg of "new" Nardil the same that I used to take of "old" Nardil. This is probably true for most people, but I do know people who do not respond well if at all to "new" Nardil anymore. As a result I made a elixir I call Liquid Nardil, which works extremely well, but it's expensive. Still, it does what Pfizer's "new" Nardil will not do in some people.
>
> > > Understand, "new" Nardil is generic Nardil. That is all that is made anywhere in the world these days including England where Link UK makes a generic Nardil and Australia where Link AUS makes generic Nardil, but also puts the old orange Sucrose coating on it -- which makes it appear to be "old" Nardil, but it's not.
>
> > So even if the stuff from the UK is not the original Nardil, could it also be that it is just a better generic than what we have in the U.S.?
>
> No. I can tell you the excipients of all of the known forms of Nardil made today, including "old" Nardil. You have to understand that the excipients of any medication actually determine how the active ingredient, in this case Phenelzine Sulfate is metabolized. If your body does not metabolize it, and I know some people for whom this is indeed the case, you have to make some hard choices to make.I'm confused. Are you saying that the Nardil in the UK is not better but just has some different excipients than that produced in the U.S.? The person I'm referring to who is doing better on the UK version is doing so probably because the excipients in that forumlation are more conducive to that individual being able to absorb it better?
> > So what is it exactly that you do to the Nardil you buy to make it liquid and why is it better?
>
> I make an elixir and I do not do a thing to any one else's Nardil. There's not enough Phenelzine Sulfate in those tablet to make my elixir. 15 mg is not very much. I start from scratch and make my own. That was the point of this exercise - to come up with a functional equivalent for "old" Nardil for people for whom "new" Nardil does not work. Of course I was the first Clinical trial. This is not FDA approved and is much less efficient than any Nardil tablet, but I have save at least one person's life with it. Otherwise, it was suicide for him (a fate several of his relatives have suffered.)
>
> It is very simple. The expense is purchasing 10 grams of Phenelzine Sulfate or Phenelzine HCL to make your first liter. I do not synthesize these myself, or it might be much cheaper. But the idea is that others can do this for themselves with my assistance via e-mail -- if necessary. It bypasses the entire American Medical Establishment. That means, no more Pharmaceutical companies; no more Psychiatrists; no more prescriptions, and no more Pharmacies. You will need a very good chemical company though and some simple equipment. I have half a mind to do this to several other medications just to demonstrate the power of the technique. Problem is I do not take them. I could not in good conscience offer something I had not made and taken myself.Truly amazing!
> > Have you never wanted to try anything else in
> all of these years?
>
> Only because of the side-effects. To that end I found the best Psychiatrist I could find in Dr. John P. Feighner, formerly the head of Feighner Research Institute in San Diego, CA. Now he is on the Board of Directors of Innapharma, Inc. and only sees select patients. He's cashing in after a long an distinguished career. I do not blame him one bit as he has been in the trenches fighting the worse forms of these illnesses for most of his adult life.Too bad. I don't live all that far from there (in LA).
> We tried everything reasonable and several unreasonable treatment alternatives in 1984 through 1985. In fact, I pushed the field of Psychiatry as far as it goes and had Stereotatic limbic leucotomy based upon his recommendation. It actually helped some and forced me to reduce the amount of Nardil I must take from 45 mg to 37.5 mg. When those lesions kicked in I had no choice but to cut back or I would be up all night. Hence, I did exactly that, but my goal was eliminate the need for the medication entirely. I now believe that once must actually alter genes in order to achieve this end. That or perhaps use fetal stem cells to replace damaged neurons or receptors of neurons.
>
> >Actually, it's probably wise that you didn't. You read so many posts here of people going off of a medication but they can never get that original good response back again when they restart on it.
>
> I just never have had that problem with Nardil. If I stop taking it, when I resume it works just exactly the same for me.Definitely lucky in that respect.
> > > >(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
> > >
> > > No problem at all Kara. Interesting survey though.
> > >
> > > Dave
> >Thanks again,
Kara
Posted by Spotcheck on December 20, 2004, at 12:15:10
In reply to Re: Nardil Veteran » Spotcheck, posted by KaraS on December 20, 2004, at 9:04:29
> > Perhaps, but it most assuredly causes the "carbohydrate starvation" I mentioned earlier. It's very hard to resist. Hence, most people end up having to work out much harder just to keep this under control and they still gain some weight.
>
> Is this worse than the "carb. starvation" that you get with a sedating TCA? I've had that problem before.
>
> Have you ever tried Parnate or Marplan?
> I wonder if there's as much weight gain with Marplan.
>
>
> > When you know your life hangs in the balance, you would not believe what you can drive yourself to do.
>I feel that my life is the balance right now too...
I understand and that is not a place I ever want to visit again.
>
>
> > > > > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I sure have. My experience is unique, but I take exactly 37.5 mg of "new" Nardil the same that I used to take of "old" Nardil. This is probably true for most people, but I do know people who do not respond well if at all to "new" Nardil anymore. As a result I made a elixir I call Liquid Nardil, which works extremely well, but it's expensive. Still, it does what Pfizer's "new" Nardil will not do in some people.
> >
> > > > Understand, "new" Nardil is generic Nardil. That is all that is made anywhere in the world these days including England where Link UK makes a generic Nardil and Australia where Link AUS makes generic Nardil, but also puts the old orange Sucrose coating on it -- which makes it appear to be "old" Nardil, but it's not.
> >
> > > So even if the stuff from the UK is not the original Nardil, could it also be that it is just a better generic than what we have in the U.S.?
> >
> > No. I can tell you the excipients of all of the known forms of Nardil made today, including "old" Nardil. You have to understand that the excipients of any medication actually determine how the active ingredient, in this case Phenelzine Sulfate is metabolized. If your body does not metabolize it, and I know some people for whom this is indeed the case, you have to make some hard choices to make.
>>I'm confused. Are you saying that the Nardil in the UK is not better but just has some different excipients than that produced in the U.S.?
Yes, that is precisely what I am saying. All Nardil made today is generic Nardil, not "old" Nardil. This is a really old medication now dating back to the late 1950s. Lakeside Pharmaceuticals first developed it.
>The person I'm referring to who is doing better on the UK version is doing so probably because the excipients in that forumlation are more conducive to that individual being able to absorb it better?
Perhaps, but there is very little difference between the three (really two since Link UK's Nardil and Link AUS's Nardil are identical except for the outer coating) variations that exist today. All are reformulations of Pfizer's "old" Nardil.
>
>
> > > So what is it exactly that you do to the Nardil you buy to make it liquid and why is it better?
> >
> > I make an elixir and I do not do a thing to any one else's Nardil. There's not enough Phenelzine Sulfate in those tablet to make my elixir. 15 mg is not very much. I start from scratch and make my own. That was the point of this exercise - to come up with a functional equivalent for "old" Nardil for people for whom "new" Nardil does not work. Of course I was the first Clinical trial. This is not FDA approved and is much less efficient than any Nardil tablet, but I have save at least one person's life with it. Otherwise, it was suicide for him (a fate several of his relatives have suffered.)
> >
> > It is very simple. The expense is purchasing 10 grams of Phenelzine Sulfate or Phenelzine HCL to make your first liter. I do not synthesize these myself, or it might be much cheaper. But the idea is that others can do this for themselves with my assistance via e-mail -- if necessary. It bypasses the entire American Medical Establishment. That means, no more Pharmaceutical companies; no more Psychiatrists; no more prescriptions, and no more Pharmacies. You will need a very good chemical company though and some simple equipment. I have half a mind to do this to several other medications just to demonstrate the power of the technique. Problem is I do not take them. I could not in good conscience offer something I had not made and taken myself.
>
Truly amazing!A lot of people were really groping when Pfizer stopped making "old" Nardil at the end of 2003. She lied to the FDA and told them that she had a shelf life problem with old Nardil, when really it's all about improving her bottom line. Still any Pharmaceutical Company has the right to reformulate a medication they make whenever they desire so long as they follow FDA guidelines.
I decided it was necessary to come up with something that worked as well, but I do not have the knowledge or the money required to make "old" Nardil tablets. Because of those two facts, I decided to make a liquid instead of tablets. My hypothesis was to use only a really good carrier solvent to take the Phenelzine Sulfate into the blood stream, where it is metabolized by the liver and then sent to the cortex of the human brain.
>
>
> > > Have you never wanted to try anything else in
> > all of these years?
> >
> > Only because of the side-effects. To that end I found the best Psychiatrist I could find in Dr. John P. Feighner, formerly the head of Feighner Research Institute in San Diego, CA. Now he is on the Board of Directors of Innapharma, Inc. and only sees select patients. He's cashing in after a long an distinguished career. I do not blame him one bit as he has been in the trenches fighting the worse forms of these illnesses for most of his adult life.
> Too bad. I don't live all that far from there (in LA).Feighner's Research Institute still exists in San Diego. Dr. Feighner is just no longer active there anymore. You can visit it on the Internet though.
>
> > We tried everything reasonable and several unreasonable treatment alternatives in 1984 through 1985. In fact, I pushed the field of Psychiatry as far as it goes and had Stereotatic limbic leucotomy based upon his recommendation. It actually helped some and forced me to reduce the amount of Nardil I must take from 45 mg to 37.5 mg. When those lesions kicked in I had no choice but to cut back or I would be up all night. Hence, I did exactly that, but my goal was eliminate the need for the medication entirely. I now believe that once must actually alter genes in order to achieve this end. That or perhaps use fetal stem cells to replace damaged neurons or receptors of neurons.
> >
> > >Actually, it's probably wise that you didn't. You read so many posts here of people going off of a medication but they can never get that original good response back again when they restart on it.
> >
> > I just never have had that problem with Nardil. If I stop taking it, when I resume it works just exactly the same for me.
>Definitely lucky in that respect.I could not agree more.
>
>
> > > > >(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
> > > >
> > > > No problem at all Kara. Interesting survey though.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > >
>
> Thanks again,
> KaraIt's been a pleasure, Kara.
Dave
Posted by sfy on December 20, 2004, at 12:51:45
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past) » sfy, posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 14:08:23
> I wonder how much of the fact that you didn't have terrible side effects was due to the fact that you took the old formula? It seemed like it was a helpful medication for you. Why did you go off of it?
I reached a point where I had made some substantial progress with Nardil and the CBT (as well as a small daily dose of Klonopin). The Nardil was starting to cause some severe insomnia so my pdoc at the time thought we could discontinue it and see what happened (now I would probably ask for something to help me sleep). After I went off it, I was able to maintain my progress so I didn't go back on the Nardil. However, the insomnia remained (and arises frequently today) and I was put on Remeron to deal with it.
> Do you still practice the CBT method? If so, is it still helpful?
Not formally but some of the practiced methods of counteracting the automatic negative thoughts do arise when facing some social situations. Unfortunately, because of my anhedonia/dysthymia I seemed to have hit a plateau with my last round of CBT (which was with Heimberg's group). It makes it difficult to find activities I'm interested in in which to put the CBT to use. Additionally, it turns out that some of those negative thoughts (e.g., I'll run out of things to say) are actually true in many instances (my mind tends to run out of things to say even absent any anxiety) so CBT cannot deal with that.
> Also, since your experiment with selegiline wasn't very successful, what have you decided to try next?
Right now, I'm trying nortryptiline. I'm up to a 50 mg. dose but haven't yet noticed any dramatic impact. The side effects are bearable (dry, yucky tasting mouth and slight constipation) and it does help me sleep well without any hangover the next morning. I'm going to give the 50 mg. another couple of weeks and then probably go up to 75 mg. My pdoc says the dose could go as high as 100 mg. (But he didn't mention testing my blood plasma levels and I forgot to ask.)
Posted by KaraS on December 21, 2004, at 23:11:04
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past) » KaraS, posted by sfy on December 20, 2004, at 12:51:45
> > I wonder how much of the fact that you didn't have terrible side effects was due to the fact that you took the old formula? It seemed like it was a helpful medication for you. Why did you go off of it?
>
> I reached a point where I had made some substantial progress with Nardil and the CBT (as well as a small daily dose of Klonopin). The Nardil was starting to cause some severe insomnia so my pdoc at the time thought we could discontinue it and see what happened (now I would probably ask for something to help me sleep). After I went off it, I was able to maintain my progress so I didn't go back on the Nardil. However, the insomnia remained (and arises frequently today) and I was put on Remeron to deal with it.
>
> > Do you still practice the CBT method? If so, is it still helpful?
>
> Not formally but some of the practiced methods of counteracting the automatic negative thoughts do arise when facing some social situations. Unfortunately, because of my anhedonia/dysthymia I seemed to have hit a plateau with my last round of CBT (which was with Heimberg's group). It makes it difficult to find activities I'm interested in in which to put the CBT to use. Additionally, it turns out that some of those negative thoughts (e.g., I'll run out of things to say) are actually true in many instances (my mind tends to run out of things to say even absent any anxiety) so CBT cannot deal with that.
>
> > Also, since your experiment with selegiline wasn't very successful, what have you decided to try next?
>
> Right now, I'm trying nortryptiline. I'm up to a 50 mg. dose but haven't yet noticed any dramatic impact. The side effects are bearable (dry, yucky tasting mouth and slight constipation) and it does help me sleep well without any hangover the next morning. I'm going to give the 50 mg. another couple of weeks and then probably go up to 75 mg. My pdoc says the dose could go as high as 100 mg. (But he didn't mention testing my blood plasma levels and I forgot to ask.)
Thanks for your info on Nardil and CBT. I wish I could take nortriptyline. It made my heart race but it was the only time in many years that I had some energy and motivation. Unfortunatly, because of the tachycardia, my doctor took me off of it. It sounds like your side effects are very mild though. I hope it works out for you.
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