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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7459 to 7483 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by corafree on October 27, 2004, at 1:21:06
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING » corafree, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 0:31:33
Don't have a great doc; have state-appointed. I'm knowledgeable enough re: alternative meds vs traditional meds to make own decisions, and I take responsibility for decisions. I realize what might work for one, may not for another. You could possibly help someone with your experience. I could print all your posts, but thought you wouldn't mind making that a bit easier. So, tks again, and hope to hear from you tomorrow. cf
Posted by S.Bartel on October 27, 2004, at 5:44:59
In reply to I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING, posted by dancingstar on October 26, 2004, at 12:35:38
I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who feels that way. I am beginning to think that I also could have done without this drug. When anyone goes thru a death it's only natural to go thru a grieving process and Effexor XR just brought mine to a complete halt. Had I just gone to counseling and possisbly a grief group session instead of using this horrible drug I believe I would have been OK. I am Efffexor free for about 9 days. I only had about 2 days of diareah, but my brain is still in a fog and I feel like I'm shaking inside and out. I am sick at my stomach most of the time, but that goes along with the Liver disease and I hope that improves some after all the withdrawals go away. I can control a lot of the shaking and panic attacks with bio-feedback. I have practiced this for years and it works well for me. It also works well with my fibromyalgia pain along with water therapy. I take some herbal medicines and herbal tea but my finances are not such that I can afford every one that would help. I only wish we could do something about the way this drug is marketed, but I'm not sure it would do any good unless the Dr.'s were more educated as to the drugs they prescribe. I'm afraid that will always be left up to the patients to investigate their prescribed drugs to make sure they are not going to do them harm. Patients themselves have got to educate themselves. As far as Effexor and Effexor XR go, I think people like us should do something about having it taken off the market. This drug is just too dangerous. I,m sure there are thousands besides us who have run into the same problems with Effexor and Effexor XR.
SammiP.S. I'm still having trouble sleeping!!
Posted by CrazyCO on October 27, 2004, at 11:22:17
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING » PoohBear, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 0:21:39
I took Effexor for quite a while, and when I came off it I had no withdrawals at all, so the warning is not for everyone, NOT everyone has the terrible symptoms of withdrawal.
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 12:09:24
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET, posted by CrazyCO on October 27, 2004, at 11:22:17
I don't know what "quite a while" means. I took it for three years. I don't know how much you were taking. I took between 75 and 150 mg. I don't know your background. My family is European. For what it is worth, I've read people with some genetic component have a more difficult time with the drug than others. I don't know for what the drug was prescribed in your case. In mine it was prescribed because I had back pain and because I was tired. (Um, gee, maybe I had fibromyalgia....)
I still feel very strongly that the drug should not be marketed by drug reps to family practice doctors to be given to patients for everything from fibromyalgia and a bad headache to a death in the family. It's a serious drug with potentially deadly reactions both during the time it is taken and while people are trying to stop taking it, and it should only be prescribed by those that know the most about it.
If you escaped from the drug unscathed, consider yourself very fortunate. Then again, perhaps I'm just allergic to it. Who knows? Me and everyone else that has had these problems.
Does anyone else here want to take that chance?
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 12:37:13
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING » dancingstar, posted by S.Bartel on October 27, 2004, at 5:44:59
Okay, here's the list...
It works, and I will try to do it with an explanation so you can do it by $$$:
Benadryl (I only wish I had listened sooner) Get, up; get out immediately, and get the children's version. I got it 3 1/2 weeks into this hell. Use as little as possible. It works. You will feel better. What can I say???
samE-400 (Jarrow) Helps with all the stuff you are now missing; brain, joints, liver.
5-HTP - also helps with seratonin
Nordic Naturals Omega 3 (2 capsules a day) It's lemonish and doesn't at all seem like fish in any way; so don't get all pukey just thinking about it. It really helps stabilize your mood.
Okay, now this will take about a week for you to feel, but it's worth it. I'm taking it to also help with the fibro:
From Fatigued to Fantasitc by Enzymatic Therapy - 3 Step Program.
First eat breakfast, maybe some oatmeal with some whey protein powder or some soy & eggwhite and whey protein powder...flavor it however you like.
Take two Enzymatic Therapy Fatigued to Fantastic Adrenal Support and One of their "B" Vitmins and they have this powder that you mix with water or whatever and drink. It tastes pretty awful. And it works really well. After three or four days, I really noticed a difference.
At night they have something that you take to help you get better sleep. It has been seriously pouring rain here, and I have been able get everything done, and I've also been able to work out very hard for the last two days. I am a little tired and sore. I still feel some effects of the withdrawal; but mostly, I feel the pain that I used to feel when I worked out...good pain, the pain I missed, not that horrible, deep inside the muscles and joints pain that I had to live with every single day.
I also take Dr. Michael Hirt's My Best Health AM/PM Vitamins and CardioVite, Jarrow Bone-up, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Co-Q10, MRM Grape Seed Extract.
Maybe most importantly for fibro is to be sure to have your thyroid checked. I haven't got any idea what this is about, but it sees like almost everyone with fibro is low thyroid. And no matter what you do, be sure to get the adrenal support. The withdrawal is putting lots of stress on your kidneys, and I believe that fibro is in part due to maxed out adrenals, usually after some stress when we can't take even a wee bit more, we're at the ends of our emotional ropes, having dealt with everything beyond the best of our ability for all too long...that's when we turn to some antidepressant, the worst possible thing that we can do to our bodies, give it poison in its already burnt out state.
We didn't know any better, but we'll heal. Try a little bit of this. If nothing else, get some Benadryl, please...That and a nap, and you will feel better.
It doesn't take a doctor to know this. Experience told me that this one works :-).
Posted by CrazyCO on October 27, 2004, at 13:42:18
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 12:09:24
I did not mean to discount your obviously serious problems with this drug, nor anyone elses because I have read plenty here on people who have had terrible effects with this drug. I took 225mg for just over a year for major depression. My point of my post was just to let others know that not EVERY person who takes this drug has had a terrible time with it, I think that others here have the right to know both sides of the spectrum. It is only fair to those considering taking it to know that there are positive benefits to this medication, and that they aren't doomed to experience horrible side effects. I know that every person reacts differently to every medication and this is just my PERSONAL experience as your posts were about YOUR personal experience. Everyone should make their own decisions based on all the facts not just those of people with negative outcomes. I hope that you find something in the future that will not only work for you but also not cause you the severe side effects or withdrawal symptoms that you had with effexor.
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 14:17:40
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET » dancingstar, posted by CrazyCO on October 27, 2004, at 13:42:18
Even if this drug has the possibility of being helpful to someone, if you don't know if you are one of the ones who will be negatively affected, is it worth risking using this drug?
Thanks for your wishes that I find "something" that will work, but I am happy to have found that "nothing" works more effectively. Please spare me from ever having to go near this type of pharmacological drug ever again as I sincerely believe that they should never be used by people that are better helped by psychotherapy and/or diet and exercise. It is a sad commentary that we have come to believe that so many of our problems need to be solved by a "magic" pill.
Posted by Starlight on October 27, 2004, at 14:26:29
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING ? dancingstar, posted by S.Bartel on October 27, 2004, at 5:44:59
I take effexor XR and only 75 mgs. But one thing that I've noticed is that my brain seems foggier. I also take 1500 trileptal and 300 lamictal and am trying to figure out when my brain got this way. And it seems to me that it did start with the Effexor. But on the other hand it has really, really helped my depression.
I have to come off of all the drugs soon because my hubbie and I are planning on getting pregnant and I don't want anything in my system when that happens. But I am scared, scared that my brain won't return to the sharpness it had before i took these drugs and scared that I'll slip into a severe depression
starlight.
Posted by corafree on October 27, 2004, at 14:37:51
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING » S.Bartel, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 12:37:13
It's corafree saying thanks again, and sorry, guess I had your name 'mixed up'. Will print and keep for thought!!
Posted by PoohBear on October 27, 2004, at 16:14:17
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 14:17:40
Yes, it's worth the risk, because not everyone responds well to this or that medication. I am very sensitive to your situation, but I want to be very clear, that the only reason I keep posting on this particular thread is so that people KNOW that Effexor is not BAD for everyone. People who are searching for the truth have a right to hear BOTH sides of the story, not just the negative one, which seems to be the most prevelant one around here.
Best wishes,
Tony
Posted by jujube on October 27, 2004, at 16:33:20
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET » dancingstar, posted by PoohBear on October 27, 2004, at 16:14:17
I agree with you. Effexor was not good for me. It made me apathetic, lethargic and apprehensive. However, I have friends who have done extremely well on Effexor, and continue to do so. I would hate to see them and others deprived of the chance to improve their quality of life. And, contrary to popular belief, not all depressions can be cured simply by getting some exercise and eating better in the short-term. There is a risk with any medication that the response will be less than adequate, that the side effects will far outweigh the benefits or that a person may have an adverse reaction. I have had bad reactions to certain medications, including over-the-counter medications. So I avoid those medications. I have had adverse reactions to anaesthetic and novacaine. However, if I have to go in for surgery again or have a dental procedure, I will simply warn the doctor of how I react. I appreciate this board for the sharing of experiences, both good and bad. I can then take the information and make an informed decision about a particular medication, in consultation with my doctor. I am not going to go all vigilante because my own experience on a particular drug was not good.
Tamara
> Yes, it's worth the risk, because not everyone responds well to this or that medication. I am very sensitive to your situation, but I want to be very clear, that the only reason I keep posting on this particular thread is so that people KNOW that Effexor is not BAD for everyone. People who are searching for the truth have a right to hear BOTH sides of the story, not just the negative one, which seems to be the most prevelant one around here.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Tony
Posted by Jubilee on October 27, 2004, at 17:08:20
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKETING » dancingstar, posted by corafree on October 26, 2004, at 20:56:00
Tried to answer cora but babble is off.
Yes, elavil is safer with no side affects and is an older anti- dep.. Yes its old, but it kicks dep. and helps sleep and had a mild seditive and is a chronic pain killer also. Beg for it. No bad withdrawals.
You must go off effexor very slow , like 4 or 5 months, lowering a little every week or 10 days. I have had hardly any sideffects this way, and I almost died going off 2 other times. If you can order more (like tell him you changed your mind and you are too depressed and get more effexor and be patient and go off at least over 4 months. After you are off if you can do ten days of prozac it really helps as it has a long shelf life. Get an antidireal. Good meds to help are prozac, anti diareal, anti nasuea(virtigo med), anti histimine nose spray for head aches as it messes with your histamine level also get benadryl. I think I am going to go for another 6 weeks as I started with a bottle of 60-150's and I saved all I poured out as I lowered the dose in a bottle. You can measure so much and throw it in your mouth and wash down w/ water. I just sped up dropping and i've had a light head ache, an some nausea. I wish people would prepare to go off using wisdom to make sure they have a large amount to begin with as dr's just don't understand what people go through. I also also on welbutrin which he left me on so I still have something making seratonin. I tried the 25 mg a week and this was the first time I have been sick at all , and its mild. I usually go two or three weeks on a drop. You must use wisdom and take responsibility for thinking this through as it is your body. You must have patience if you are going to be kind to your body. If I had a refill, and I was you ,I would get it. If I had no refill , I would tell the Dr. I am too depressed and to please order more ASAP and take your self off really slow saving all you pour out. You can measure in a capsul under a lamp light.. Use a calander. I have heard of people dying going too fast from the complecations , so you are fighting for your life I believe. Effexor provides two diff. meds to the brain , thats why there is no replacement for it. It is uniqely dangerous.
I told my Dr how serious the withdrawels were and his plan was to take me off in 6 weeks from 300 a day,for 4 years by giving me some prozac and some 37's, which he did.. I would have been dead or too sick to be writting this. Stop giving dr's the power to play God and think, think, think!!!
True , some people have no withdrawals at all because of their body type. Most addicts or x addicts will struggle due to the lack of an enzime. I hope this has given hope and help to others which someone did for me when I found a effexor petition on-line. It says alot. God Bless you all , Jubilee
Posted by Glory on October 27, 2004, at 17:43:03
In reply to Re: First Drug Holiday--Update, posted by Alara on September 19, 2002, at 22:12:27
How long does it take to stop , I am now on 37.5 one day and two days off. But sometimes I feels funny in my head.
I was taking for hot flashed and for me it was not working since I had them just the same.
So I would like to stop taking this pillsHelp please.
Posted by PoohBear on October 27, 2004, at 17:49:19
In reply to Re: First Drug Holiday--Update, posted by Glory on October 27, 2004, at 17:43:03
I hasten to add that after a year of reading this thread, which goes back to 1999, that I am continually AMAZED that such a potent ANTI-DEPRESSANT as Effexor XR is prescribed for ANYTHING other than depression, and only then for those forms of depression resistant to first-line AD's.
Pain?
Fybromyalga?
Negative press aside, I'm all for truth in advertising!!!
Tony
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 20:31:28
In reply to Uses of Effexor, Dancingstar, et al..., posted by PoohBear on October 27, 2004, at 17:49:19
Perhaps, Tony, you finally get the gist of my message.
It is a very potent, a potentially dangerous drug that we, as somewhat ignorant patients -- at least in the beginning -- take because we trust the medical care that says that it is okay to take this stuff for all sorts of reasons.
I'm almost beginning to think that to be able to stop taking the drug without any problem at all is the exception rather than the norm. Sure, it's great if it helps people. After a number of years, though, how do you really know if it is doing someone any good? Actually, I didn't know if it was doing me any good or any harm when I stopped. I stopped on a whim. Call it a gut instinct. And yes, I think I, too, could easily have died if I weren't as strong as I am. You have your reasons for feeling strongly about this. I have mine, too. Personally, I think mine are better because I don't think that there are any good reasons for choosing this particular drug over other drugs that have not proven to be this difficult to stop taking. I also don't think that doctors are monitoring the information about this kind of withdrawal information closely enough to be aware of it...I will have to have a hand in this, won't I?
Really, what is the difference between this drug and others like it that make it so much more potentially dangerous? Does anyone know?
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 20:36:20
In reply to Re: First Drug Holiday--Update, posted by Glory on October 27, 2004, at 17:43:03
Glory,
It doesn't really work for hot flashes. This is an example of lousy use of a dangerous drug. Sorry, I am supposed to be just giving my NONMEDICAL opinion here, but those are the facts!
If it isn't working, please tell your doctor, and stop taking it now before it has a chance to become more difficult to stop taking it later on. If you must, turn him on to this board, and let him blast me for it. I don't really care. Obviously your doctor isn't a woman.
Posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 20:37:53
In reply to Uses of Effexor, Dancingstar, et al..., posted by PoohBear on October 27, 2004, at 17:49:19
...hot flashes?????????????
Posted by Carlos C on October 27, 2004, at 22:59:29
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET, posted by dancingstar on October 27, 2004, at 12:09:24
I've been through this hell myself. For what it's worth GHB (sold as Sodium Oxybate/Xyrem in US, legal w/prescription) has been proven very effective in treating fibromyalgia. Along with many other things. It is, contrary to popular belief, extremely safe. It's non-toxic, has extremely low addiction rate, and no physical widthdrawl. I have been using it for years. I know there will be many nay-sayers. There is a lot of propaganda and misinformation out about this (ghb). That's all I'm going to say. If you would like to know more you can "babble message" me. Good luck. I am glad you're feeling better.
Posted by dancingstar on October 28, 2004, at 2:42:08
In reply to I know I keep plugging at this but... » dancingstar, posted by Carlos C on October 27, 2004, at 22:59:29
Thanks, Carlos. I will look into it. Now that is one that I have never heard of nor would I ever have put that together. I would think that it could possibly be more trouble to deal with when it comes to pharmacies and the like than it is worth...as is so often the case.
Posted by dancingstar on October 28, 2004, at 2:50:45
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET » PoohBear, posted by jujube on October 27, 2004, at 16:33:20
Tamara,
If we were merely talking about a bad reaction to a drug, that would be one thing; and I would agree with you. I will not repeat what I have said in too many posts, but this is much more serious than a bad headache or a bout of flu. People think they are "going to die" when they feel this bad because they have the flu or food poisoning for a mere weekend. This lasts for weeks; and from what I hear, it takes some folks months to begin to fully recover, especially those that withdraw slowly. It isn't as simple as you make it sound...nothing at all like your novocaine scenario, which is why I made such a big deal about it.
You mark my words, this one is going to get pulled from the shelves sooner rather than later.
Posted by jujube on October 28, 2004, at 8:55:42
In reply to Re: I'M FREE - SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT MARKET » jujube, posted by dancingstar on October 28, 2004, at 2:50:45
I am not trying to trivialize the withdrawal experience, I went through it myself. I also knew from friends on Effexor that missing a dose could make you very sick. As for my experience with anaesthetic, it wasn't just a mere few days of feeling fluish, etc. I did feel sick and lethargic for a week or more. But, I also ended up suffering severe night terrors after each surgery that would go on for a few years. Anyways, this healthy debate will continue, and that is no doubt a good thing for both the doctors prescribing the medication and patients considering taking it. Knowledge is power.
Tamara
> Tamara,
>
> If we were merely talking about a bad reaction to a drug, that would be one thing; and I would agree with you. I will not repeat what I have said in too many posts, but this is much more serious than a bad headache or a bout of flu. People think they are "going to die" when they feel this bad because they have the flu or food poisoning for a mere weekend. This lasts for weeks; and from what I hear, it takes some folks months to begin to fully recover, especially those that withdraw slowly. It isn't as simple as you make it sound...nothing at all like your novocaine scenario, which is why I made such a big deal about it.
>
> You mark my words, this one is going to get pulled from the shelves sooner rather than later.
Posted by corafree on October 28, 2004, at 21:14:39
In reply to Re: I know I keep plugging at this but... » Carlos C, posted by dancingstar on October 28, 2004, at 2:42:08
Dancingstar -
Hi. Are you on babblemail? Tried click on your name, didn't work, so guess not.
I've printed out a list of alternative meds. I am looking for something to take daily or during a panic attack. I'm trying very hard to keep distance from Xanax.
Can I pick your brain for any knowledge re: the following alternatives PAs. I've rearranged the way they were listed, so as not to prejudice you, but I can put them in order if want.
01) TheraStress
02) Becalm
03) Euphorx
04) Anxietol 7
05) HerbVal Supra
06) Prosera
07) Clarocet NRI
08) Amoryn
09) Relora
10) PinadolI am suffering terribly w/ attacks at the drop of a hat and even upon awakening. Still on E-XR150 morning, E-XR75 afternoon; Klonopin 2 mg x3 a day; and trazodone h.s. I an not allergic to anything, but milk, and have never taken a supplement w/ a prob' as long as eat. Iron difficult to metabolize. Sometimes do add one supplement, to allow me to take another. tks cf
Posted by dancingstar on October 29, 2004, at 2:08:18
In reply to Re: I know I keep plugging at this but... » dancingstar, posted by corafree on October 28, 2004, at 21:14:39
Hi Corafree,
I wish that I could help you, but I'm honestly not familiar with any of the things that you have mentioned in the list.
There are only two kinds of panic attacks that I have ever had, and one of them was last Saturday. I knew it was part of the withdrawal process, but it still surprised me when it happened. I had to go to a formal event in the evening, and feeling incredibly pale and looking kind of chalky after everything I'd been going through lately, I decided to go to the Mystic Tan place and get a fake suntan (the kind that is like a shower or a car wash.) It's just aloe vera that is sprayed all over your body for about ten seconds, but I couldn't breathe and started gulping and gasping for air.
Now, if I had never done this fake-tan thing before, that would be one thing, but I've done it a good 15 - 20 times with no problem at all. This time I really freaked myself out.
The other is merely stage fright...and I've managed to work through that by teaching cardio kickbox classes at local gyms.Also in the last few weeks I have awakened in the morning with very profound, often sad dreams with vivid memories of some of the more unpleasant times in my life.
I guess all this rambling is by way of an attempt to grapple for an answer and as I write this, two of them come to mind: The first one is that you are possibly really afraid of something that is happening in your life or that something will happen or that you will lose control of something or your ability to handle something. If this rings true for you, please know that you only think that you can't handle it, but that you really can. You will find all the answers that you need to help you because most of them are inside of you, waiting for you to tap into them. If you know that you can do anything, you can handle anything that comes your way, it gives you a tremendous amount of confidence and in many ways gives you the strength to just "let it be."
The other is that you are experiencing a physiological reaction to some metabolic change. If that's even remotely possible, I would have a complete blood panel done by a trustworthy internist or maybe even an endocrinologist, to make sure that your hormone levels are in sync.
Boy, I'll bet you're sorry that you asked, huh?
I'm sorry that I don't know more about the meds that mentioned, but you know I'm not a medical person. I hope you have a good night and wake up with a peaceful morning :-)....
I'll look into the mail thing tomorrow, k?p.s.
The reason that I don't go for the fix of taking something for the anxiety is because I see that as covering the problem rather than solving it and in the process, possibly creating either a bigger problem or more problems.
Posted by emmahoward on October 29, 2004, at 2:57:09
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
Hi. I was given effexor xr a little over 2 months ago. I was started at 37.5, then told to take 37.5, and half a capsule (was odd to have to split all those little balls)a month later, then finally now after 2 months im up to 75. My doctor has assured me that he wont raise it any higher because he doesnt believe anything higher is necessary, and that he doesnt prescribe such a dose to anyone. I take it in the morning, with half a capsule of clonazepam, then clonazepam halves throughout the day as needed. At night for sleeping, im given a whole imovane, everynight, and if that doesnt work, I am now allowed to take somthing called Starnoc. This new psychaitrist seems to know what hes talking about and has told me that to get rid of the depression and insomnia and anxiety, all I need to do is regulate my biological clock. Has anyone else had this same discussion with their psychaitrists?
In response to the ppl who have been writing about the terrible side effects of the drug and how it shudnt be taken, my words for them is it works different for everyone. After 2 months on Effexor, things are starting to feel better (finally) and I think if you have a good doctor monitoring you, the uncomfort of coming off the drug will be lessened. My old doctor told me to take 37.5 of effexor one week then the next take it up to 75. (which I was later told by a specialist that doing that would induce horrible side effects) I think GPs should just not be allowed to prescribe any of these drugs because they dont know enough about them. Working with a specialist who has helped me rise slowly on the drug and wont let me take anything more then needed has left my mind at ease. I hope all of you have found a doctor as well informed and helpful as I have.
Posted by Tyroneous1 on October 29, 2004, at 16:47:07
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by emmahoward on October 29, 2004, at 2:57:09
I'm in the boat with the rest of you. Effexor withdrawl is for shit. I took it for 2 years and I've been off of it for almost 2 months. The side effects have dulled but they can still be horrific. Pentazocine, Propoxyphene, and Buprenorphine have helped with the brain shivers and the sleep seizures.
In 20 to 30 years, the health community will look back at our current affairs with SSRI's and SNRI's like we look at the medieval ages when Barbers and Doctors were one in the same and blood letting cured everything.
Keep fighting it.
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