![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 67 to 91 of 116. Go back in thread:
Posted by caraher on August 4, 2004, at 17:35:06
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine--Something's Up, posted by KaraS on August 4, 2004, at 16:41:01
> Yes, thank you. I just read that on the main board. Lots of people are very happy. Are you taking it currently? If so, what are you experiencing so far?
I might be. In the study I'm in it's either Cymbalta, Lexapro or placebo (odds are 40-40-20). I'm only one week into the study and I've experienced some mild nausea. I've managed to be more productive at work the past few days, better able to concentrate, so it's early yet but I feel generally positive about how it's going.
Posted by caraher on August 4, 2004, at 17:42:59
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine--Something's Up...YES!, posted by Marilyn on August 4, 2004, at 17:32:46
> Actually Cymbalta (duloxetine) is just another SSRI anti-depressant that also acts on nor-epinephrine (nor-adrenalin). It is comparable to Effexor (venlafaxine). Thus this new "miracle drug" offers potentially just as many horrendous side-effects that people already experienced on the other SSRIs.... and these people are definitely not so happy!That's basically my understanding, that it's kinda like Effexor in terms of the neurotransmitters it acts on, but with different kinetics and possibly other differences I'm not competent to speak to, being neither a chemist nor a neurobiologist.
Certainly Cymbalta is solidly in the "marketing hype" phase of its use as an antidepressant. Certainly there are people who will react badly to it, just like pretty much every other drug. I think the truth for most patients, as always, will lie somewhere in between Lilly's claims and the tales of horror so readily cataloged on the web.
Posted by maximum-doser on August 4, 2004, at 18:30:11
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine--Something's Up, posted by Griobhtha on August 4, 2004, at 14:49:52
Does anyone know what Cymbalta will cost, and what the dosage is?
Posted by KaraS on August 4, 2004, at 18:39:51
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine--Something's Up...YES!, posted by caraher on August 4, 2004, at 17:42:59
>
> > Actually Cymbalta (duloxetine) is just another SSRI anti-depressant that also acts on nor-epinephrine (nor-adrenalin). It is comparable to Effexor (venlafaxine). Thus this new "miracle drug" offers potentially just as many horrendous side-effects that people already experienced on the other SSRIs.... and these people are definitely not so happy!
>
> That's basically my understanding, that it's kinda like Effexor in terms of the neurotransmitters it acts on, but with different kinetics and possibly other differences I'm not competent to speak to, being neither a chemist nor a neurobiologist.
>
> Certainly Cymbalta is solidly in the "marketing hype" phase of its use as an antidepressant. Certainly there are people who will react badly to it, just like pretty much every other drug. I think the truth for most patients, as always, will lie somewhere in between Lilly's claims and the tales of horror so readily cataloged on the web.
It's supposed to be different from Effexor in that it is more balanced in terms of the reuptake inhibition of norepinephrine (NE) and serotonin. Effexor only mildly inhibits NE reuptake and then only at higher dosages. This extra NE inhibition could make it quite different, and more powerful, than any of the SSRIs or Effexor. Unfortunately, it's short half-life does predispose it to withdrawal effects when going off of it but "no pain, no gain" I guess. I prefer to take more natural treatments but I'm in favor of anything that can help. Too many people are suffering way too much IMHO and I don't want to shut the door to any potential help.I agree with you completely that the truth of it's impact will lie somewhere between the hype and the horror stories.
Good luck with the rest of your trial. Please let us know how it turns out in the end (when will that be by the way?)
Kara
Posted by caraher on August 4, 2004, at 20:34:31
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine--Something's Up, posted by maximum-doser on August 4, 2004, at 18:30:11
No idea of the cost, but I believe the "standard" dose is 60 mg/day.
Posted by caraher on August 5, 2004, at 12:44:07
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine--Something's Up, posted by maximum-doser on August 4, 2004, at 18:30:11
> Does anyone know what Cymbalta will cost, and what the dosage is?
The Indy Star newspaper reports today that the wholesale price per 60 mg dose will be about $2.85. They also say Lilly expects it will be available in about 80% of pharmacies nationwide by the end of August
Posted by JLM on August 5, 2004, at 12:52:33
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine--Something's Up, posted by caraher on August 5, 2004, at 12:44:07
Something is indeed up.
Cybalta is a drug that was studied in the early nineties by Lilly. Apparently at that time, they didn't think it was of much value as an AD, but it was apparently marked in Europe as a treatment for stress urinary incontinence.
With the failure of, r-fluoxetine, and Proazc going off patent, they HAD to find something to retain their market share, and thus you have Cymbalta...BACK FROM THE DEAD.
Most of the positive studies were open label. The one's where they claimed 'complete remission'.
Don't believe the hype. ESPECIALLY FROM an open label study.
The woman that killed herself was participating in
a 'healthy volunteer' study. I have never heard an explanation from Lilly for her suicide. How does one explain that? Was it the Easter Bunny that made her do it? Space aliens? Hrmmmm........It would be a simple matter to confirm whether it was indeed the drug by doing a challenge/dechallenge,rechallenge protocol, like the one suggested by Healy, but I doubt you are going to see that anytime soon. They promised FDA they would do one for Prozac, but Lilly never carried it out. One wonder's why that is. The "Beasley Protocol"
Posted by caraher on August 5, 2004, at 15:19:40
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine--Something's Up, posted by JLM on August 5, 2004, at 12:52:33
> Cybalta is a drug that was studied in the early nineties by Lilly. Apparently at that time, they didn't think it was of much value as an AD, but it was apparently marked in Europe as a treatment for stress urinary incontinence.The difference as I understand it is that they originally didn't test it at as high a dose as they did this time around.
Of course, this makes the safety concerns all the more poignant, and Lilly probably has not been as publicly responsive to those as they probably should be. I don't think it's possible to "explain" every suicide but Lilly has certainly done far less than they should, especially concerning the tragedy last spring. Pointing out that the subject was no longer taking the study drug and commenting on the low suicide rate among depressed patients who took the duloxetine scarcely reveal an aggressive search for the truth!
Posted by Marilyn on August 6, 2004, at 11:18:15
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine--Something's Up, posted by caraher on August 5, 2004, at 15:19:40
> I don't think it's possible to "explain" every
> suicide but Lilly has certainly done far less
> than they should, especially concerning the
> tragedy last spring. Pointing out that the
> subject was no longer taking the study drug and
> commenting on the low suicide rate among
> depressed patients who took the duloxetine
> scarcely reveal an aggressive search for the
> truth!The truth is indeed what people need. Suicide is not the only side-effect been seen with antidepressants. Actually there are a range of other horrendous side-effects reported by medical physicians. For an example of side-effects to be expected with the ingestion of Cymbalta (duloxetine) I would like to encourage you to read what side-effects are already reported with regards to Effexor (venlafaxine).
http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/effexor-ADF.htm
Effexor/Efexor Cases & Reviews...
2003
12/00
Case/Review Fatality related to a 30-g venlafaxine overdose
2003
07/12
Case/Review Withdrawal symptoms in Baby after exposure to venlafaxine during pregnancy
2003
07/08
Case/Review Severe Headache with venlafaxine withdrawal
2003
07/00
Case/Review A case report of Paranoid Delusion with venlafaxine use
2003
06/00
Case/Review Mania associated with Effexor discontinuation
2003
05/00
Case/Review Efexor more likely to cause Serotonin Toxicity in patient at risk seizure/suicide
2003
05/00
Case/Review Shock-like Sensations during Venlafaxine Withdrawal
2003
05/00
Case/Review Hepatic Injury & Pancreatitis during treatment with SSRIs & Effexor
2003
04/00
Case/Review Venlafaxine and Increased Aggression in a female with autism
2003
04/00
Case/Review Effexor-induced Pneumonitis (Lung Reaction) & Heart Failure simultaneously
2003
04/00
Case/Review Eroto-Mania induced by venlafaxine: a case study
2003
02/00
Case/Review Serotonin Syndrome Induced by Low-Dose Effexor (venlafaxine)
2002
00/00
Case/Review Venlafaxine -Long Term Adverse Effects
2002
10/00
Case/Review Effexor (& other antidepressants) -induced Sexual Dysfunction
2002
10/04
Case/Review Deaths, Arrhythmias & Seizures in Effexor (venlafaxine) overdose
2002
08/00
Case/Review Venlafaxine Poisoning complicated by a late rise in creatine kinase
2002
07/00
Case/Review Discontinuation/Withdrawal Reactions associated with Effexor (venlafaxine)-5
2002
06/00
Case/Review Delirium during Withdrawal of Effexor
2002
05/00
Case/Review Venlafaxine-associated Vaginal Bleeding
2002
04/00
Case/Review Proconvulsant Effects of high doses of venlafaxine in rats
2002
03/00
Case/Review Hyponatraemia in elderly psychiatric patients treated with SSRIs & Effexor
2002
03/04
Case/Review Serotonin Toxicity with therapeutic doses of dexamphetamine and venlafaxine
2001
00/00
Case/Review An Organic Psychosis due to a venlafaxine-propafenone interaction
2001
08/00
Case/Review Flushing/Return of Hot Flashes in a Menopausal Woman Taking Venlafaxine
2001
07/00
Case/Review Venlafaxine-Induced Hair Loss
2001
07/00
Case/Review Withdrawal Reactions with Effexor (venlafaxine) presenting as stroke
2001
05/00
Case/Review Venlafaxine has a stronger association with Hyponatraemia
2001
01/16
Case/Review Conduction Disturbances Associated with Venlafaxine-overdose
2000
12/00
Case/Review Seizures associated with therapeutic doses of venlafaxine and trimipramine
2000
09/00
Case/Review Reduced Testosterone Level in a venlafaxine treated patient
2000
04/00
Case/Review Abstract: SSRIs & Sexual Dysfunction (Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor)
2000
04/00
Case/Review Venlafaxine-induced Painful Ejaculation
2000
04/00
Case/Review Venlafaxine-induced Serotonin Syndrome with relapse following amitriptyline
2000
03/00
Case/Review Discontinuation/Withdrawal Reactions associated with Effexor (venlafaxine)-4
2000
03/07
Case/Review Venlaxafine-Associated Hepatitis
2000
01/00
Case/Review Effexor: Eosinophilic Pneumonia (Lung/Blood Disease) & Respiratory Failure
2000
01/22
Case/Review Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome after venlafaxine
1999
00/00
Case/Review Acute Ischaemic Event associated with the use of venlafaxine
1999
10/00
Case/Review Effexor-induced Bruxism (Teeth Grinding)
1999
08/00
Case/Review Influence of CYP2D6 liver-enzymes & Cardiovascular Toxicity of venlafaxine
1999
06/01
Case/Review Venlaxafine-Associated Hepatitis
1999
05/00
Case/Review Venlafaxine can cause Significant Cardiovascular & Neurological Toxicity
1999
04/00
Case/Review Effect of CYP2D6*10 genotype on venlafaxine in healthy adult volunteers
1998
09/00
Case/Review Serotonin Syndrome due to venlafaxine overdose
1998
09/19
Case/Review Discontinuation/Withdrawal Reactions associated with Effexor (venlafaxine)-3
1998
07/00
Case/Review Serotonin Syndrome induced by transitioning from phenelzine to venlafaxine
1998
07/08
Case/Review Serotonin Syndrome with Effexor and other SSRI-antidepressants
1998
04/00
Case/Review Serotonin Syndrome induced by venlafaxine and fluoxetine
1998
04/00
Case/Review Discontinuation/Withdrawal Reactions associated with Effexor (venlafaxine)-2
1998
04/01
Case/Review Hallucinations as a Side Effect of "Venlafaxine"(Effexor) Related Link
1998
03/04
Case/Review Increased Ocular Pressure in 2 patients treated with venlafaxine
1998
02/00
Case/Review Akathisia in withdrawal reactions Effexor (venlafaxine)
1998
01/00
Case/Review Hyponatremia with venlafaxine
1997
12/00
Case/Review Discontinuation/Withdrawal Reactions associated with Effexor (venlafaxine)
1997
12/21
Moore/Study Hard to Swallow: Serzone and Effexor
1997
11/00
Case/Review Seizures, Tachycardia & Rhabdomyolysis following Venlafaxine & Lamotrigine
1997
08/00
Case/Review Venlafaxine produces Sleep Disturbances & Abnormal Leg Movements
1997
06/00
Case/Review Syndrome of Inappropriate ADH Secretion (SIADH) attributed to venlafaxine
1997
02/00
Case/Review Seizure resulting from a venlafaxine overdose
1997
01/00
Case/Review Serotonin Syndrome following a single dose of Effexor (venlafaxine)
1996
07/12
Case/Review Isolated venlafaxine-overdose-induced Serotonin Syndrome
1996
07/08
Case/Review Two Fatal Cases of Venlafaxine Poisoning
1995
00/00
Case/Review A case report of venlafaxine-overdose Toxicity
Posted by SLS on August 6, 2004, at 12:17:00
In reply to Side-effects to be expected from Cymbalta/duloxeti, posted by Marilyn on August 6, 2004, at 11:18:15
> The truth is indeed what people need.
What exactly is this truth?
- Scott
Posted by Leo the Lion on August 7, 2004, at 16:25:32
In reply to Side-effects to be expected from Cymbalta/duloxeti, posted by Marilyn on August 6, 2004, at 11:18:15
The truth is indeed what people need, and they won't get it from so called antidepressantfacs.com
I don't know the intentions of the people running that site, but if they are not bad, they should be sterilized for the better good of humanity.
EX:
Case/Review Fatality related to a 30-g venlafaxine overdose30 grammes, that's 400 pills.
Take xxx aspirin - death
Drink 400 glasses of water within the hour - death
A case review is exactly that; a case review.
from http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/pinealstory.htm
"...What actually happens when you increase serotonergic neuronal activity or elevate your serotonin levels is this: the stress hormones "Cortisol" & "Adrenaline" (Epinephrine) in the brain and body are triggered by increased serotonergic activity or elevated serotonin levels. ... They give the human personality a boost, producing a euphoric state, which can last for a prolonged period of time. In this manner SSRI-AntiDepressants initially produce the deceptive results the doctor and "patient" are both expecting. *"
I can tell you first hand that you do not get a "boost" from antidepressant.
A very heavy release of adrenalin can get you a boost. A heck load of cortisol make you feel wired in the most unpleasant sense of the word.
So, marilyn, drop dead.
'nuff said
Posted by Marilyn on August 7, 2004, at 18:28:01
In reply to Re: Side-effects to be expected from Cymbalta/duloxeti » Marilyn, posted by Leo the Lion on August 7, 2004, at 16:25:32
> So, marilyn, drop dead.
Well, we all have to die sometime, but until that time arrives I will continue to provide the truth to people who are unbeknown of the powerful physical and mental side-effects of these antidepressants.
I came accross another recent post regarding physical and mental side-effects due to another Lilly SSRI antidepressant known as Prozac (fluoxetine). You can find it at: http://forum.conductdisorders.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=055041
Just another example of the side-effects to be expected with the new Lilly drug Cymbalta (duloxetine)
posted August 07, 2004 12:30
My personal experience withdrawing from Prozac. I felt like I was coming out of my skin, would feel like needles were shooting out of my fingertips,would have awful nightmares, shake out of control, felt sick to my stomach, it was without a doubt the worse thing I ever lived through, and it was at that time that I thought back to my daughter's withdrawal on zoloft, and it made me feel so bad for her and relieved she made it through it. I dont know many people(actually none)who have lived through this nightmare to even remotely share the experience of how it felt, so I feel I should share this here, just as general information/food for thought. My family all knew I was coming off the drug and was alert to my mouthyness, aggitation,all the physical symtoms, and it was living hell. I missed work until I could function.I tapered extremely slowly, right down to breaking open the capsules and putting the powder in something else so I could try and prevent withdrawals. I could feel episodes coming on. I would feel extremely sick, the shakes and the buzzing would start and I had to sit down for at least 30 minutes to ride it. I had a awful time. I am still on trazedone(which also interacted with the prozac)for sleep leftover from my own anxiety from my daughter. This drug is what I now feel is the reason for my excessive sweating! I googled sweat and trazedone and ended up reading a lot about some ADs having excessive sweating as a side effect. I am in the process of coming off of this drug now, as it isnt needed and am not seeing any of the nasty withdrawals I had on Prozac. I find the more I read, and lots of the fine print on how these drugs actually work in the brain/body help understand better. Makes you feel like a home grown scientist.Good luck.
Posted by SLS on August 7, 2004, at 20:26:18
In reply to Re: So, marilyn, drop dead, posted by Marilyn on August 7, 2004, at 18:28:01
> > So, marilyn, drop dead.
> Well, we all have to die sometime, but until that time arrives I will continue to provide the truth to people who are unbeknown of the powerful physical and mental side-effects of these antidepressants.Dear Marilyn,
I'm glad you were able to shrug off so easily the ingracious comments of the previous poster. I don't want you to drop dead. :-)
I still don't understand what your point is. These drugs have side effects. This is not news.
Is there anything else that you are trying to say beyond the fact that these drugs have side effects?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 8, 2004, at 2:32:21
In reply to Re: Side-effects to be expected from Cymbalta/duloxeti » Marilyn, posted by Leo the Lion on August 7, 2004, at 16:25:32
> The truth is indeed what people need, and they won't get it from so called antidepressantfacs.com
>
> they should be sterilized for the better good of humanity.
>
> Take xxx aspirin - death
>
> So, marilyn, drop dead.Please don't discuss specific ways of harming oneself, suggest that others be harmed, exaggerate or overgeneralize, or post under more than one name at the same time.
Sharing something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Anyone who has questions about this or about posting policies in general, or who is interested in alternative ways of expressing themselves, should see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Also, follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by caraher on August 12, 2004, at 11:27:31
In reply to Side-effects to be expected from Cymbalta/duloxeti, posted by Marilyn on August 6, 2004, at 11:18:15
Today's Indy Star had an article saying the FDA will agree with Lilly concerning the suicide in a Cymbalta trial earlier this year: http://www.indystar.com/articles/9/169521-6899-223.html
I was astounded that the "wean" period was only 4 days. I've never quit any antidepressant that abruptly myself and would be rather worried about doing so. Today the a coordinator for the study I'm in told me the suicide occurred 2 weeks after she last took duloxetine. Also, the new consent form I received today says that over 11,000 people have now taken the drug in trials.
Posted by Marilyn on August 13, 2004, at 10:52:32
In reply to Re: So, marilyn, please don't drop dead ? Marilyn, posted by SLS on August 7, 2004, at 20:26:18
> I still don't understand what your point is.
> These drugs have side effects.This is not news.
> Is there anything else that you are trying to
> say beyond the fact that these drugs have side
> effects?Dear Scott,
As a matter of fact, yes there is so much more I would like to say.
First of all, since 1987, SSRI antidepressants are heavily marketed being completely safe and effective drugs.
It is only very recently in this year, 2004, after so many reports of self-harm, suicidality and physical side-effects since 1987, that the FDA finally starts to recognize there should be stronger warning indications regarding these hazards.
How many children have been victimized throughout all of these years? And how many more children will suffer of unrecognized side-effects in the future?
I will give you an example of a young woman of 17 years of age who visited the doctor's office because she felt so tired prior to her school exam. He prescribed her the SSRI antidepressant Celexa also known as Cipramil and told her that it was completely safe to take and would give her more energy.
Ofcourse this doctor had his knowledge from a pharmaceutical representative and truely believed it would help her.
Within 5 days of ingesting Celexa, this young woman became a physical wreckage with severe signs of paraesteshia, extreme burnings in her face, arms and hands along with painful shooting sensations in her head, neck and spine.
3 years later the symptoms are still there in their severity. She never finished her exam.
She couldn't play the piano anymore. This young woman -now 20 years of age- as well as her parents are desperate. No specialist is able to help her. No medication against neuralgia works.My question to you is: if this would be your daughter, how would you feel? Would you still explain these side-effetcs away as something innocent and short lived? I doubt it.
So that is my point.
Marilyn
Posted by JLM on August 13, 2004, at 11:00:49
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine, posted by caraher on August 12, 2004, at 11:27:31
> Today's Indy Star had an article saying the FDA will agree with Lilly concerning the suicide in a Cymbalta trial earlier this year: http://www.indystar.com/articles/9/169521-6899-223.html
>
> I was astounded that the "wean" period was only 4 days. I've never quit any antidepressant that abruptly myself and would be rather worried about doing so. Today the a coordinator for the study I'm in told me the suicide occurred 2 weeks after she last took duloxetine. Also, the new consent form I received today says that over 11,000 people have now taken the drug in trials.
So, if it wasn't the drug, what was it then: the Easter Bunny?This is outrageous if you ask me.
Posted by Marilyn on August 13, 2004, at 11:19:44
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine, posted by JLM on August 13, 2004, at 11:00:49
> Today's Indy Star had an article saying the FDA
> will agree with Lilly concerning the suicide
>
> So, if it wasn't the drug, what was it then:
> the Easter Bunny? This is outrageous if you ask
> me.Dear "JLM",
I feel your outrage here. To be honest, I have
seen this coming for some time. Unfortuately the
pharmaceutical companies and the FDA are too much
intertwined with eachother and there are way too
much financial interests at stake. It is the unfortunate truth.Furthermore, what that article failed to uncover
was that Traci Johnson was most certainly not the
only participant who committed suicie on Cymbalta
(duloxetine).Knight Ridder News Service reports that Eli Lilly
acknowledges that 4 other suicides occurred
during clinical trials of Cymbalta.In this article:
Smith said there had been four suicides in the
clinical trials for duloxetine, out of 9,000
participants.He said it was "very, very rare" for healthy
participants to take their own life."The deaths in the study occurred with people who
actually were depressed when they started the
study."Marilyn
Posted by theo on August 13, 2004, at 12:25:57
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine, posted by Marilyn on August 13, 2004, at 11:19:44
The only people saying they are "healthy individuals" is themselves on the application. If an individual is willing to subject themselves to the testing of new antidepressants which could mean taking extremely high doses, they are either hoping to feel better or hoping they get accidently OD in my opinion, it's not just about the money they are getting paid, they are reaching out.
Posted by caraher on August 13, 2004, at 12:41:02
In reply to Re: Cymbalta/Duloxetine, posted by Marilyn on August 13, 2004, at 11:19:44
> Furthermore, what that article failed to uncover
> was that Traci Johnson was most certainly not the
> only participant who committed suicie on Cymbalta
> (duloxetine).Actually, the article DOES mention that: "As of this spring, four suicides had occurred among 4,124 depressed patients who had taken duloxetine, which is Cymbalta's scientific name, during clinical trials, according to a Lilly clinical psychiatrist, Dr. John R. Hayes."
There is a rumor that she'd been depressed previously and the point in another post about taking the volunteer's word is very well taken. I used to work in PET research and heard many tales of so-called "normal volunteers" lying to get into a study. The difference is that generally it's easier to figure out that someone lied about taking cocaine than it is to determine someone had previously been depressed.
Posted by SLS on August 13, 2004, at 14:10:33
In reply to Re: So, marilyn, please don't drop dead, posted by Marilyn on August 13, 2004, at 10:52:32
> > I still don't understand what your point is.
> > These drugs have side effects.This is not news.
> > Is there anything else that you are trying to
> > say beyond the fact that these drugs have side
> > effects?
>
> Dear Scott,
>
> As a matter of fact, yes there is so much more I would like to say.
>
> First of all, since 1987, SSRI antidepressants are heavily marketed being completely safe and effective drugs.I disagree with you. This has not been my observation.
I have been taking SSRIs since 1984 (indalpine). No one has ever portrayed to me that any antidepressant was "completely safe and effective". This is, in part, because I have had good doctors.
I have never seen an advertisement in print or on TV making any such claims. Have you ever had the opportunity to view a TV advertisement for an SSRI that has made such a claim? On the contrary. For years, I have seen the drug companies place in their adds a list of possible adverse effects, many of them being quite serious. They also go out of their way to say that their drug is not for everyone, and that THEIR DOCTOR should be the one to make such determinations.
Is this not true?
> It is only very recently in this year, 2004, after so many reports of self-harm, suicidality and physical side-effects since 1987, that the FDA finally starts to recognize there should be stronger warning indications regarding these hazards.
Which hazards? Which ones that are not already listed?
I am glad that the FDA has finally seen fit to recognize that drug-induced suicidal states are a possible adverse effect of antidepressant medications. They are. There are many medications that can alter brain function in ways that bring about changes in mood and cognition. These include, but are not limited to, antidepressants. Prednisone, one of the most common treatments for pain, inflammation, and autoimmune disease, can produce depression and psychosis, and has precipitated severe pathological behaviors. This is old news. The medical community should be better educated in this area it seems. It is unfortunate that the FDA should ask for label warnings after the fact, but it is good that this has been rectified. To give the drug companies the benefit of the doubt, they are investigating a disease for which one of the symptoms is suicide. Perhaps they are not entirely negligent for not having been able to distinguish the differences any earlier.
> How many children have been victimized throughout all of these years?
I don't know. Do you have an estimate?
> And how many more children will suffer of unrecognized side-effects in the future?
Of course, this question can be asked of almost any drug, or of almost any human endeavor. I'm not sure Tylenol has been around long enough for us to be certain that no more "unrecognized" side effects will yet be recognized. There are thousands of serious people in medicine who are always asking this question. You are not alone.
> I will give you an example of a young woman of 17 years of age who visited the doctor's office because she felt so tired prior to her school exam.
What is her name, and where can I find the facts of this case so that I might scrutinize them?
> He prescribed her the SSRI antidepressant Celexa also known as Cipramil and told her that it was completely safe to take and would give her more energy.
Ah. We are now talking about the behavior of a specific doctor. What is his name?
> Of course this doctor had his knowledge from a pharmaceutical representative and truely believed it would help her.
Of course? How do we know this? If you are going to make statements as if they were fact, please describe how you know this to be true.
> Within 5 days of ingesting Celexa, this young woman became a physical wreckage with severe signs of paraesteshia, extreme burnings in her face, arms and hands along with painful shooting sensations in her head, neck and spine.
This might be true. I have no reason to believe that such a thing is not a medical possibility. Again, though, I am sure you will provide the source of your information or allow us to scrutinize it for ourselves, no?
> 3 years later the symptoms are still there in their severity. She never finished her exam.
> She couldn't play the piano anymore. This young woman -now 20 years of age- as well as her parents are desperate. No specialist is able to help her. No medication against neuralgia works.
Has this case been published in any medical literature? I would be intereseted in reading it.
> My question to you is: if this would be your daughter, how would you feel?
Who's daughter is she? If you want an answer, lets get to the specific facts of this case. Who is this person?
> Would you still explain these side-effetcs away as something innocent and short lived?
> I doubt it.
"Innocent" as opposed to "sinister"? Do you think something sinister is going on?
I doubt it.
> So that is my point.
> MarilynMarilyn, your point is a very serious one. It probably deserves to have provided facts and references so that we can better assess its validity.
SSRIs are very powerful psychotropic drugs that are effective for many people and produce many side effects, some of which are serious. Among these are infrequent exacerbations of the illness itself. It is my opinion that these drugs belong in the pharmacopeia until better ones are discovered to supplant them.
- Scott
Posted by Marilyn on August 14, 2004, at 6:45:17
In reply to Re: So, marilyn, please don't drop dead, posted by SLS on August 13, 2004, at 14:10:33
> Who's daughter is she? If you want an answer,
> lets get to the specific facts of this case.
> Who is this person?Dear Scott,
Do medical physicians reveal the names of their patients to the public? Ofcourse not. That is confidential. They simply present the case and that's enough.
I am not asking you a difficult question. I am not asking you to play word games with me either. I am asking a question to your heart and I will ask it again:
If this would be your daughter, how would you feel? Would you still explain these side-effetcs away as something innocent and short lived?
The pharmaceutical companies are doing this for so many years despite the facts. Come on Scott, you cannot deny the commercial adds for Zoloft, Paxil, Effexor, etc.
One recent new fact is Health Canada advising canadians that newborns may be adversely affected when pregnant women take Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) and other newer anti-depressants during the third trimester of pregnancy.
Reported symptoms include: feeding and/or breathing difficulties, seizures, muscle rigidity, jitteriness and constant crying.
This advisory applies to the following anti-depressants: bupropion (whether used for depression or for smoking cessation), citalopram, fluoxetine, fluvoxamine, mirtazapine, paroxetine, sertraline and venlafaxine.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/protection/warnings/2004/2004_44.htm
To come back to my point, above mentioned side-effects are to expected from Cymbalta (duloxetine).
Marilyn
Posted by JLM on August 14, 2004, at 7:37:35
In reply to Re: So, marilyn, please don't drop dead, posted by SLS on August 13, 2004, at 14:10:33
> > > I still don't understand what your point is.
> > > These drugs have side effects.This is not news.
> > > Is there anything else that you are trying to
> > > say beyond the fact that these drugs have side
> > > effects?
> >
> > Dear Scott,
> >
> > As a matter of fact, yes there is so much more I would like to say.
> >
> > First of all, since 1987, SSRI antidepressants are heavily marketed being completely safe and effective drugs.
>
> I disagree with you. This has not been my observation.
>
> I have been taking SSRIs since 1984 (indalpine). No one has ever portrayed to me that any antidepressant was "completely safe and effective". This is, in part, because I have had good doctors.
>
> I have never seen an advertisement in print or on TV making any such claims. Have you ever had the opportunity to view a TV advertisement for an SSRI that has made such a claim? On the contrary. For years, I have seen the drug companies place in their adds a list of possible adverse effects, many of them being quite serious. They also go out of their way to say that their drug is not for everyone, and that THEIR DOCTOR should be the one to make such determinations.
>
> Is this not true?
>
> > It is only very recently in this year, 2004, after so many reports of self-harm, suicidality and physical side-effects since 1987, that the FDA finally starts to recognize there should be stronger warning indications regarding these hazards.
>
> Which hazards? Which ones that are not already listed?
>
> I am glad that the FDA has finally seen fit to recognize that drug-induced suicidal states are a possible adverse effect of antidepressant medications. They are. There are many medications that can alter brain function in ways that bring about changes in mood and cognition. These include, but are not limited to, antidepressants. Prednisone, one of the most common treatments for pain, inflammation, and autoimmune disease, can produce depression and psychosis, and has precipitated severe pathological behaviors. This is old news. The medical community should be better educated in this area it seems. It is unfortunate that the FDA should ask for label warnings after the fact, but it is good that this has been rectified. To give the drug companies the benefit of the doubt, they are investigating a disease for which one of the symptoms is suicide. Perhaps they are not entirely negligent for not having been able to distinguish the differences any earlier.
>
> > How many children have been victimized throughout all of these years?
>
> I don't know. Do you have an estimate?
>
> > And how many more children will suffer of unrecognized side-effects in the future?
>
> Of course, this question can be asked of almost any drug, or of almost any human endeavor. I'm not sure Tylenol has been around long enough for us to be certain that no more "unrecognized" side effects will yet be recognized. There are thousands of serious people in medicine who are always asking this question. You are not alone.
>
> > I will give you an example of a young woman of 17 years of age who visited the doctor's office because she felt so tired prior to her school exam.
>
> What is her name, and where can I find the facts of this case so that I might scrutinize them?
>
> > He prescribed her the SSRI antidepressant Celexa also known as Cipramil and told her that it was completely safe to take and would give her more energy.
>
> Ah. We are now talking about the behavior of a specific doctor. What is his name?
>
> > Of course this doctor had his knowledge from a pharmaceutical representative and truely believed it would help her.
>
> Of course? How do we know this? If you are going to make statements as if they were fact, please describe how you know this to be true.
>
> > Within 5 days of ingesting Celexa, this young woman became a physical wreckage with severe signs of paraesteshia, extreme burnings in her face, arms and hands along with painful shooting sensations in her head, neck and spine.
>
> This might be true. I have no reason to believe that such a thing is not a medical possibility. Again, though, I am sure you will provide the source of your information or allow us to scrutinize it for ourselves, no?
>
> > 3 years later the symptoms are still there in their severity. She never finished her exam.
>
> > She couldn't play the piano anymore. This young woman -now 20 years of age- as well as her parents are desperate. No specialist is able to help her. No medication against neuralgia works.
>
> Has this case been published in any medical literature? I would be intereseted in reading it.
>
> > My question to you is: if this would be your daughter, how would you feel?
>
> Who's daughter is she? If you want an answer, lets get to the specific facts of this case. Who is this person?
>
> > Would you still explain these side-effetcs away as something innocent and short lived?
>
> > I doubt it.
>
> "Innocent" as opposed to "sinister"? Do you think something sinister is going on?
>
> I doubt it.
>
> > So that is my point.
>
> > Marilyn
>
> Marilyn, your point is a very serious one. It probably deserves to have provided facts and references so that we can better assess its validity.
>
> SSRIs are very powerful psychotropic drugs that are effective for many people and produce many side effects, some of which are serious. Among these are infrequent exacerbations of the illness itself. It is my opinion that these drugs belong in the pharmacopeia until better ones are discovered to supplant them.
>
>
> - Scott
>Scott,
"Perhaps they are not entirely negligent for not having been able to distinguish the differences any earlier."
That doesn't wash. Lilly could have went ahead and
carried out the Beasly Protocol, as they had promised the FDA, and chose not to. Is that perhaps because they feared what the result would be?
Posted by SLS on August 14, 2004, at 8:01:51
In reply to If this would be your daughter,how would you feel?, posted by Marilyn on August 14, 2004, at 6:45:17
> > Who's daughter is she? If you want an answer,
> > lets get to the specific facts of this case.
> > Who is this person?
>
> Dear Scott,
>
> Do medical physicians reveal the names of their patients to the public?Do you know this person? That's all I really want to know. Is this something that has happened to you personally? This is not a word game. You seem to have told a story that you have no personal knowledge of. There a lots and lots of stories to be found on the Internet.
> I am not asking you a difficult question.
No. You are asking me an obviously rhetorical question.
What would you like to see happen with duloxetine?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 14, 2004, at 8:27:00
In reply to Re: So, marilyn, please don't drop dead, posted by JLM on August 14, 2004, at 7:37:35
> That doesn't wash. Lilly could have went ahead and
> carried out the Beasly Protocol, as they had promised the FDA, and chose not to. Is that perhaps because they feared what the result would be?
I am not at all familiar with this. Were they asked to do this in the early 1990s in association with the law suits? I'm sure they did fear what the result would be. Someone must have had some suspicians. What is the Beasly Protocol?Thanks.
You might want to take a look at the Cymbalta labelling. It does cite treatment-emergent suicides as an infrequent occurrence.
- Scott
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.