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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by katia on February 26, 2004, at 12:55:30
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin?, posted by sarahsundae on February 26, 2004, at 12:48:41
Do you have anxiety? Is it better w/ WB? You don't become too agitated?
Posted by platinumbride on February 26, 2004, at 13:18:28
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » platinumbride, posted by katia on February 26, 2004, at 12:43:00
What is keppra? It is a MS, so they say....really an anticonvulsant. Shrink also says it is a cognitive enhancer. I'll give it a shot for that purpose. I haven't seen much on this board about it. I think he just likes the idea that it is a cognitive enhancer.
I haven't done the heavy duty ones like lithium or depakote for reasons of weight...
I did topamax...gave me nothing but headaches.
Sigh......D
I did gain weight on paxil even though i was a gym rat at the time. I have gained weight and appetite with so many things...and I am now 5'1 at a glowing "venus of Willendorf" 240 lbs.
Posted by katia on February 26, 2004, at 13:19:52
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » katia, posted by platinumbride on February 26, 2004, at 13:18:28
Does Keppra go by any other name? I'm in the US.
Katia
Posted by platinumbride on February 26, 2004, at 13:22:06
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » platinumbride, posted by katia on February 26, 2004, at 13:19:52
Keppra.....look it up on www.drugstore.com
I'm in the US too
Posted by katia on February 26, 2004, at 13:32:12
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » katia, posted by platinumbride on February 26, 2004, at 13:22:06
Interesting....I've never ever heard of that one before. Is it older? How does it work for you?
Posted by platinumbride on February 26, 2004, at 13:34:03
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » platinumbride, posted by katia on February 26, 2004, at 13:32:12
I think it is rather new.....
It isn't really working.....my moods are still swinging and rapidly....D
Posted by sarahsundae on February 26, 2004, at 15:15:13
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » sarahsundae, posted by katia on February 26, 2004, at 12:55:30
I had a little anxiety in the beginning but it went away.
The Topamax has helped a lot to stablize my moods so I'm not so up and down all the time. But only time will tell if these are the meds I will continue to stay on.
Posted by PsychoSage on February 26, 2004, at 18:27:36
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » katia, posted by sarahsundae on February 26, 2004, at 15:15:13
I am BP, and I am on 1200mg of Trileptal. I am also on 300mg of Wellbutrin. Wellbutrin irritates me I think because sometimes it starts activating or i just notice it, and my body isn't really doing anything and wants to relax. It is more of a norepinephrine drug than dopamine I think. I just started on a little bit of provigil on top of those two, and that gives a lot more energy as well as brain stimulation.
I think wellbutrin is good if you do not do well with anything with serotonin which makes me indifferent and sleep more. Those drugs also make me cloudier or almost stoned. Lots of Bipolars are switched on by those SSRIs because if the serotonin really works well, then the dopamine will kick in as well. It is odd how these drugs never work the way they claim they work, and that even goes for the selective ones. All the systems and pathways are connected and overlap in varying degrees, so if one is being revved up, I think a signal might go to another pathway to say it's time to party.
Wellbutrin will be very strong when you start and then it will mellow out. It will almost be too activating for some people at first, but look at it as your body getting used to it or start at 150 for not just 4 days but a few weeks or months actually. You shouldn't jerk yourself up on this one if you are sensitive to it.
I think it is a good buffer for depressives who sleep too much. It may curb your appetite in the beginning too.If you have continual insomnia, overactivation or weight loss {less of an appetite for a long time] then maybe it's a bit too much of what you need. Think about keeping it real low or moving on elsewhere.
Weight loss is common on this drug. I have not experienced that though.
I never slept less than normal on it, except maybe the first two days. I have never had insomnia except once, and that was the first personal trial ever on it 4 years ago.
When you dose up you will always have an amphetamine like experience for maybe just the first day or first few. Otherwise, it mellows out like I said. I have heard some people say it makes them want to jump out of their skin though.
I don't think this drug really triggers seizures the way many people say it does. There were probably too many epileptics in the sample they used in the study. I had an epileptic friend who had good results during her period with it, but she lost a lot of weight.
I am interested in Keppra, but the same friend told me she had a horrible week on it.
I would love to know more though because I hate dulling drugs like most of the MS.
Posted by katia on February 26, 2004, at 23:51:40
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin?, posted by PsychoSage on February 26, 2004, at 18:27:36
>>I just started on a little bit of provigil on top of those two, and that gives a lot more energy as well as brain stimulation.
HI Psychosage,
Thanks for such a long post!! very helpful. What you said above - you have more brain stiumlation and energy on Provigil. 1. What is Provigil? and 2. Doesn't wellbutrin give enough energy and stimulation? That's what I'm hoping for anyway. Focus and energy, but not agitation.>>I think wellbutrin is good if you do not do well with anything with serotonin which makes me indifferent and sleep more. Those drugs also make me cloudier or almost stoned. Lots of Bipolars are switched on by those SSRIs because if the serotonin really works well, then the dopamine will kick in as well. It is odd how these drugs never work the way they claim they work, and that even goes for the selective ones. All the systems and pathways are connected and overlap in varying degrees, so if one is being revved up, I think a signal might go to another pathway to say it's time to party.
**The problem is, I only tried ADs prior to being dxed as BP. I have no idea how I'll do on any of them with a mood stabilizer. I was a zombie on Zoloft and Celexa made me more depressed and an insomniac. Effexor and Serzone made me hypomanic and then with Eff. depressed and stoned feeling. Do you think this is an inidication how they will do for me WITH a MS? I too have just started Trileptal - I'm only at 125mg right now. I also currently take a smidge of Seroquel for sleep and 12g of fish oil.
Thanks again-
Katia
Posted by PsychoSage on February 27, 2004, at 5:21:55
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » PsychoSage, posted by katia on February 26, 2004, at 23:51:40
> >>I just started on a little bit of provigil on top of those two, and that gives a lot more energy as well as brain stimulation.
>
> HI Psychosage,
> Thanks for such a long post!! very helpful. What you said above - you have more brain stiumlation and energy on Provigil. 1. What is Provigil?It is a stimulant that is not like amphetamine or ritalin [methylphenidate]. It has less side effects than those drugs, but some experienced stimulant users claim that it doesn't do much for them. I think it is very potent. It is prescribed for shift-work disorder and narcolepsy[first approval was for this in 98 i believe] It is relatively knew on the market in the US. It is prescribed off-label for many things including depression and ADD..
and 2. Doesn't wellbutrin give enough energy and stimulation? That's what I'm hoping for anyway. Focus and energy, but not agitation.It is more of an antidepressant for me. Many ADHD people take it alone for their symptoms, and they are successful with it.
>
> >>I think wellbutrin is good if you do not do well with anything with serotonin which makes me indifferent and sleep more. Those drugs also make me cloudier or almost stoned. Lots of Bipolars are switched on by those SSRIs because if the serotonin really works well, then the dopamine will kick in as well. It is odd how these drugs never work the way they claim they work, and that even goes for the selective ones. All the systems and pathways are connected and overlap in varying degrees, so if one is being revved up, I think a signal might go to another pathway to say it's time to party.
>
> **The problem is, I only tried ADs prior to being dxed as BP. I have no idea how I'll do on any of them with a mood stabilizer. I was a zombie on Zoloft and Celexa made me more depressed and an insomniac. Effexor and Serzone made me hypomanic and then with Eff. depressed and stoned feeling. Do you think this is an inidication how they will do for me WITH a MS? I too have just started Trileptal - I'm only at 125mg right now. I also currently take a smidge of Seroquel for sleep and 12g of fish oil.
>
> Thanks again-
> KatiaI am new to mood stabilisers too. i think I started out at 300, then I moved to 600. I was having some issues, so they bumped me up to 1200 which is generally the upper limit for most, but it's not unusual for epileptics to hit 1800 or 2400. check out www.bipolarworld.net
Mood stabilizers are supposed to keep you from being a little lightening bug, so it's like insulation. They can also prevent depression, but that depends on the person and the drug.
An antidepressant should just be added if you are having trouble while a MS should be a maintenance drug unless you are depressed a lot then you need both as maintenance.
Basically, I do not go near the serotonin drugs for the reasons I admitted above. I wouldn't care if they are activating or if they even worked perfectly. They always either poop out or just cause more trouble for me, and I have a hard time figuring them out. I say that because I fiddled with the dosage for them for years. I couldn't tell if they helped my anxiety or caused it by making me irritable or agitated. I think they may be good for short-term therapy, but they take my emotions away from me.
I don't like antipsychotics either even though my brain glitches occasionally.
You have several different drugs going on there, so be vigilant about side effects. Seroquel is sedating, and doesn't just affect you after you take it. it can have a partial effect all day.
You will make your own path obviously, so my experience will not predict yours but try to track your symptoms. good luck
Posted by katia on February 27, 2004, at 14:21:25
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin?, posted by PsychoSage on February 27, 2004, at 5:21:55
Hi psychosage,
Thanks again for your post.
Are you bipolar and ADHD? I'm losing track of people, so excuse me if you've already told me.My system is extremely sensitive and less is better for me. I'll probably ONLY go up to 300mg of Trileptal if even that. I do need something to pull me out of a depression I feel myself falling into.
How long have you been on the med rollercoaster ride?
Katia
BPII
Seroquel 12g
Fish oil 12g
Trileptal 125mg
Posted by PsychoSage on February 27, 2004, at 15:45:58
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » PsychoSage, posted by katia on February 27, 2004, at 14:21:25
> Hi psychosage,
> Thanks again for your post.
> Are you bipolar and ADHD? I'm losing track of people, so excuse me if you've already told me.
>
> My system is extremely sensitive and less is better for me. I'll probably ONLY go up to 300mg of Trileptal if even that. I do need something to pull me out of a depression I feel myself falling into.
> How long have you been on the med rollercoaster ride?
> Katia
> BPII
> Seroquel 12g
> Fish oil 12g
> Trileptal 125mg
I am not really ADHD. I have inattention and perceptual problems due to substance abuse with methamphetamine.There is no doubt that I am not ADHD because I was an excellent student until I went to college. I was very well-behaved. It may not matter now what caused my symptoms because I need some assistance through stimulating psych drugs now.
I am bipolar, mid 20s. I've had psychotic symptoms, but they were tied into mania and depression and emanated from meth abuse: ampehtamine induced psychosis officially.
I have done meds for a little more than 6 years now. Zoloft saved my life during my first major depression at 19, but it did me no favor after the first month.
Posted by katia on February 27, 2004, at 15:54:09
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » katia, posted by PsychoSage on February 27, 2004, at 15:45:58
Did you try Zoloft before you knew you were bipolar? I did. Are you BP II or I?
When did you experience your first episode of either? I was 10 when i experienced my first depression. and 17 first hypomania.
Katia
Posted by jdgjdg on February 27, 2004, at 21:37:17
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » PsychoSage, posted by katia on February 27, 2004, at 15:54:09
Just wanted to add a note. My pdoc said that Wellbutrin can induce mania. She took me off of it immediately after diagnosing BPI. Jenn
Posted by katia on February 27, 2004, at 22:54:48
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin?, posted by jdgjdg on February 27, 2004, at 21:37:17
Any antidepressant can cause mania in BP people. I'm thinking about using it ON TOP of a mood stabilizer.
Posted by PsychoSage on February 28, 2004, at 0:00:44
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » PsychoSage, posted by katia on February 27, 2004, at 15:54:09
> Did you try Zoloft before you knew you were bipolar? I did. Are you BP II or I?
> When did you experience your first episode of either? I was 10 when i experienced my first depression. and 17 first hypomania.
> Katiawell, i had short bouts as a child and suicidal ideation. I became hypo in college [in a dysfunctional way]. Before college, I was an overachieving youth, and I had an overactive mind that permitted me to sleep only 5 hours a night on average unless it were the weekend.
I was not really pathological until substances and booze came into play. Half of BPs are alcoholics and substance abusers, so perhaps my illness was brought out solely because of the substances or maybe accelerated. Either way, I am mental, and I deal with manic, hypomanic, psychotic, depressive, anxiety, and attention issues. I have a few diagnoses, but I just think about symptoms. The DSM is very limited, and it will undergo revision soon. I am deathly afraid of full manic episodes, since I have had one without any substances or psych drug inducing it.
I don't think I could really have one unless my life became very exciting.
.I tried zoloft twice before I was bipolar. But I was always kind of bipolar basically. a BP diagnosis would not prevent a doc from prescribing it to me if that is what you are asking, That whole AD{SSRI}=mania is not a uniform effect at all. It doesn't preclude us from SSRIs. It just means they can be totally wrong or they have a limited time frame for our use.
I think I was BP -NOS [not otherwise specified} or BP 2. I take trileptal 1200mg to quiet everything down. That means keeping me from getting overexcited or elated, anxious, and even for my residual psychotic problems according to my prescriber. I am just starting to learn how to figure out my cycles. I know flat out depression like the back of my hand, but I have mixed states more than anything now.
Wellbutrin is less likely to cause mania in people I have read than SSRIs. It is more norepinephrine than dopamine first of all. I think of it as something that keeps me awake, since I am on the Trileptal, more than something that makes me act or feel great. I have been on Wellbutrin without Trileptal, and it is not all too exciting, but the side effect profile is the best.
Posted by katia on February 28, 2004, at 0:50:06
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin?, posted by PsychoSage on February 28, 2004, at 0:00:44
Hi,
Actually I've heard numerous times over and over again that BP people should NOT take ADs alone. It can induce mania and rapid cycling as did me.I completely can relate to mixed states. And to the only sleeping 5 hours as a teenager. I remember I never slept or needed to until my 20s.
Katia
Posted by PsychoSage on February 28, 2004, at 12:22:08
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » PsychoSage, posted by katia on February 28, 2004, at 0:50:06
> Hi,
> Actually I've heard numerous times over and over again that BP people should NOT take ADs alone. It can induce mania and rapid cycling as did me.
>
> I completely can relate to mixed states. And to the only sleeping 5 hours as a teenager. I remember I never slept or needed to until my 20s.
>
> KatiaDefinitely. I just read some case report that basically said that Serotonin Discontinuation Syndrome can cause increased dopamine [means mania and psychosis among some other intense symptoms}. While I have experienced a less profound version, I just learned that when serotonin goes down, dopamine increases. At least this is one hypothesis. THe converse is also observed: when serotonin goes up, dopamine decreases. I guess that is why SSRIs make me apathetic, want to sleep more, and lazy.
Therefore, if I ever go back on a drug that is very specific and selective for serotonin, I will be very vigilant.
Posted by NG on March 1, 2004, at 12:55:01
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? » platinumbride, posted by katia on February 26, 2004, at 12:29:46
> Maybe you're more serotonin/noreph. deficient rather than dopamine = Wellbutrin.
Just wanted to point out that Wellbutrin works on norepinephrin particularly, and also dopamine. I'm %99 percent certain that's the case.
NG
Posted by NG on March 1, 2004, at 13:30:21
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin?, posted by jdgjdg on February 27, 2004, at 21:37:17
> Just wanted to add a note. My pdoc said that Wellbutrin can induce mania. She took me off of it immediately after diagnosing BPI. Jenn
I'm BPII or cyclothymic. My pdoc (and other sources I've read) suggest that Wellbutrin may be less of a risk than other mood stabilizers because it works with norepinephrine and not seratonin. I'm trying it out with Lamictal.
Posted by katia on March 1, 2004, at 14:16:37
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? (Mania inducement?) » jdgjdg, posted by NG on March 1, 2004, at 13:30:21
> > Just wanted to add a note. My pdoc said that Wellbutrin can induce mania. She took me off of it immediately after diagnosing BPI. Jenn
>
> I'm BPII or cyclothymic. My pdoc (and other sources I've read) suggest that Wellbutrin may be less of a risk than other mood stabilizers because it works with norepinephrine and not seratonin. I'm trying it out with Lamictal.Hi,
Could you please keep in touch about your experience? Lamictal and WB are meant to be activating meds. I wonder how the two of them together will do for you. HOpefully not too much agitation or activation. What else have you tried before?
Katia
Posted by NG on March 10, 2004, at 21:38:35
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? (Mania inducement?) » NG, posted by katia on March 1, 2004, at 14:16:37
Hey Katia,
It took me awhile to accept the diagnosis, and that was less than two years ago. I just started with pharmaceuticals in October--first the Lamictal and then, when I was still losing in a depression and anxiety sense, the Wellbutrin. So, I haven't tried anything else.
My tendencies are depressive and with bouts of irritablility (sp?)--the dysphoric kind--with some hypomania. And anxiety seems to be it's own thing.
After 6 weeks or more (I'm not great with time), I'm still on 150mg Wellbutrin. I believe in going slow with these things and would like to stay here if it works. I know it had some initial obvious effectiveness, because it stopped the depression.
I have had side effects of acid reflux (unless that was coincidence; my sister got that and she doesn't 'pop pills'.) And when the depression lessened, I was still very much dealing with anxiety--interesting to me because usually the two have been so closely tied that it was hard to separate one from the other. I have in my journal "depression does NOT equal anxiety" to mark this realization.
Wellbutrin may have contributed to a bit of agitation and anxiety, but not in a huge way. I mean, it was definitely there, I developed a new symptom of having my leg bounce up and down in an "I gotta move" kind of sense. But I've always been prone to aggitation and anxiety--including bodily jerks in the past couple of years--and this was no worse than that. My life situation has improved a little bit since then, and I'm doing better on the anxiety / agitation front.
cheers,
NG
(30yo guy living in the intermountain West, if your interested.)
Posted by katia on March 11, 2004, at 15:46:38
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? (Mania inducement?) » katia, posted by NG on March 10, 2004, at 21:38:35
> My tendencies are depressive and with bouts of irritablility (sp?)--the dysphoric kind--with some hypomania. And anxiety seems to be it's own thing.
Hi NG,
Your tendencies above are like mine. I can get pretty wild though - hard energy to quell - hypomanic stuff I guess. I just started at 37.5mg of Wellbutrin for a week now. I also like to take it slowly with meds (plus 300mg of Trileptal) And I think it's caused me to go a bit hypomanic. It could be the weather though. In Cal. we've had summer-like weather and that always does me in - the spring fever. I'm trying to "tame" myself these next few days. I won't go out and see if it dies down. If it doesn't I'll probably have to go off of WB. It's my first go with ADs in addition to a mood stabilizer. I've had ADs alone prior to my BP dx and went hypo for sure.If your irritability persists, I'd reconsider staying on TWO activating meds.
I may quit the WB and go back to Lamictal. It's just that I got the rash which was scary. But I guess I could try it again if this hypo *hit continues.
keep in touch.
Katia
BPII
33 yr. old female - if you're interested. :-)> After 6 weeks or more (I'm not great with time), I'm still on 150mg Wellbutrin. I believe in going slow with these things and would like to stay here if it works. I know it had some initial obvious effectiveness, because it stopped the depression.
>
> I have had side effects of acid reflux (unless that was coincidence; my sister got that and she doesn't 'pop pills'.) And when the depression lessened, I was still very much dealing with anxiety--interesting to me because usually the two have been so closely tied that it was hard to separate one from the other. I have in my journal "depression does NOT equal anxiety" to mark this realization.
>
> Wellbutrin may have contributed to a bit of agitation and anxiety, but not in a huge way. I mean, it was definitely there, I developed a new symptom of having my leg bounce up and down in an "I gotta move" kind of sense. But I've always been prone to aggitation and anxiety--including bodily jerks in the past couple of years--and this was no worse than that. My life situation has improved a little bit since then, and I'm doing better on the anxiety / agitation front.
>
> cheers,
>
> NG
> (30yo guy living in the intermountain West, if your interested.)
>
Posted by Doug Saving The Team on April 3, 2004, at 15:24:20
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? (Mania inducement?) » NG, posted by katia on March 11, 2004, at 15:46:38
Kat,
Please explain why good weather in Cal would cause problems for you? I am on WB and Trileptal and have found that going out and exercising is a good way to calm and get some release.
Thanks,
Doug Saving The Team
> > My tendencies are depressive and with bouts of irritablility (sp?)--the dysphoric kind--with some hypomania. And anxiety seems to be it's own thing.
>
> Hi NG,
> Your tendencies above are like mine. I can get pretty wild though - hard energy to quell - hypomanic stuff I guess. I just started at 37.5mg of Wellbutrin for a week now. I also like to take it slowly with meds (plus 300mg of Trileptal) And I think it's caused me to go a bit hypomanic. It could be the weather though. In Cal. we've had summer-like weather and that always does me in - the spring fever. I'm trying to "tame" myself these next few days. I won't go out and see if it dies down. If it doesn't I'll probably have to go off of WB. It's my first go with ADs in addition to a mood stabilizer. I've had ADs alone prior to my BP dx and went hypo for sure.
>
> If your irritability persists, I'd reconsider staying on TWO activating meds.
>
> I may quit the WB and go back to Lamictal. It's just that I got the rash which was scary. But I guess I could try it again if this hypo *hit continues.
> keep in touch.
> Katia
> BPII
> 33 yr. old female - if you're interested. :-)
>
> > After 6 weeks or more (I'm not great with time), I'm still on 150mg Wellbutrin. I believe in going slow with these things and would like to stay here if it works. I know it had some initial obvious effectiveness, because it stopped the depression.
> >
> > I have had side effects of acid reflux (unless that was coincidence; my sister got that and she doesn't 'pop pills'.) And when the depression lessened, I was still very much dealing with anxiety--interesting to me because usually the two have been so closely tied that it was hard to separate one from the other. I have in my journal "depression does NOT equal anxiety" to mark this realization.
> >
> > Wellbutrin may have contributed to a bit of agitation and anxiety, but not in a huge way. I mean, it was definitely there, I developed a new symptom of having my leg bounce up and down in an "I gotta move" kind of sense. But I've always been prone to aggitation and anxiety--including bodily jerks in the past couple of years--and this was no worse than that. My life situation has improved a little bit since then, and I'm doing better on the anxiety / agitation front.
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > NG
> > (30yo guy living in the intermountain West, if your interested.)
> >
>
>
Posted by katia on April 3, 2004, at 15:40:44
In reply to Re: Bipolars on Wellbutrin? (Mania inducement?) » katia, posted by Doug Saving The Team on April 3, 2004, at 15:24:20
>>Kat,
Please explain why good weather in Cal would cause problems for you? I am on WB and Trileptal and have found that going out and exercising is a good way to calm and get some release.
Thanks,
Doug Saving The TeamDoug,
Spring weather makes me a bit hypomanic and the combo of WB and that made me loopey and wild. Among other things, I smashed my laptop in w/ my fist, now it looks like an etch-e-sketch (sp?). I've lost all my data now. It was being slow and freezing up...so I killed it regrettfully so. also all appetites for anything pleasurable dramatically increase and I can't be satiated...I seem to not be able to tolerate any ADs. I've restarted Lamictal w/ my Trileptal. I think this will be a good combo for me.
Katia
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