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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Karen_kay on January 17, 2004, at 23:22:24
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by TropicalGirl12 on January 17, 2004, at 15:29:02
I love topamax much more than sex. So, if I have to chose, I know where I stand :) I couldn't get an appointment before my BC ran out, so I'm up poop creek without a paddle. Back to condoms for a month, I suppose. My therapist actually suggest the old pull-out method. I was shocked! That's like 12% effective, HELLO! Maybe that's why he has 2 kids! :) But, I'm going to see my OBGYN this week and saying, "Listen, no acne and no yeast infections. What's going to work?" If they don't have any suggestions, then I'm back to condoms or abstinence. I just don't care anymore. I'm done with this whole business. Maybe I'll become a born-again virgin! At least my skin will improve and I won't have to worry about scratching myself in public, YIKES, I almost feel like a man :)
Posted by Aubrey13 on January 18, 2004, at 2:16:09
In reply to topomax, posted by Ellen Brodie on April 19, 1999, at 15:58:40
Be careful with daily use of Klonopin. It is a highly addictive controlled substance, in a different classification of drugs than the mood stabilizer. I could not believe I was prescribed Klonopin in the hospital after I told them I had been abusing it(someone else presciption). At the time I truely wanted to get well an refussed to take it.
Posted by Sooshi on January 18, 2004, at 18:01:48
In reply to Re: topomax watch out for the klonopin, posted by Aubrey13 on January 18, 2004, at 2:16:09
Has anyone had an adverse reaction when taking a Klonopin WITH Topamax though? I took .5mg at night with my 100mg nightly dosage of Topa, and never felt "drunker" in my life...I had to call for help to get off of the floor and into bed! Really weird, since I'm very tolerant of benzos, but something about this combo wacked me out....
Posted by Sooshi on January 18, 2004, at 18:16:56
In reply to Re: topomax watch out for the klonopin, posted by Aubrey13 on January 18, 2004, at 2:16:09
Has anyone had an adverse reaction when taking a Klonopin WITH Topamax though? I took .5mg at night with my 100mg nightly dosage of Topa, and never felt "drunker" in my life...I had to call for help to get off of the floor and into bed! Really weird, since I'm very tolerant of benzos, but something about this combo wacked me out....
Posted by lizi G. on January 21, 2004, at 18:38:06
In reply to Re: topomax » lizi G., posted by headachequeen on January 16, 2004, at 21:11:29
Thanks to all the postings on topomax. I feel armed enough to confront my MD about it and if he isn't interested, I'll lose him and find someone who is!
Posted by lizi G. on January 21, 2004, at 18:41:24
In reply to Re: topomax » TropicalGirl12, posted by Karen_kay on January 17, 2004, at 23:22:24
> I love topamax much more than sex. So, if I have to chose, I know where I stand :) I couldn't get an appointment before my BC ran out, so I'm up poop creek without a paddle. Back to condoms for a month, I suppose. My therapist actually suggest the old pull-out method. I was shocked! That's like 12% effective, HELLO! Maybe that's why he has 2 kids! :) But, I'm going to see my OBGYN this week and saying, "Listen, no acne and no yeast infections. What's going to work?" If they don't have any suggestions, then I'm back to condoms or abstinence. I just don't care anymore. I'm done with this whole business. Maybe I'll become a born-again virgin! At least my skin will improve and I won't have to worry about scratching myself in public, YIKES, I almost feel like a man :)
I think I could really like you! You are a kick in the pants! lizi G.
Posted by headachequeen on January 21, 2004, at 19:57:14
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by lizi G. on January 21, 2004, at 18:41:24
At least my skin will improve and I won't have to worry about scratching myself in public, YIKES, I almost feel like a man :)
>
> I think I could really like you! You are a kick in the pants! lizi G.There are several people here who truly 'a kick in the pants' and soooo likeable... they are the ones who keep the rest of us going when the going is almost un-go-able... and we are so glad they are here...
kat
Posted by hockeymom on January 22, 2004, at 11:40:24
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by Davina on March 15, 2003, at 19:42:48
hello all! i'm new to forum but hopefully I can find some answers! i have been on several AD for past 4 to 5 years for my OCD and they have helped. These have included prozac, celexa and paxil. My problem is that I've also gained about 50 pounds in that same amount of time. It seems that once I start eating, I can't stop! Everything looks so good. My problem is that I'm so depressed about my weight and I know that this all ties in together somehow! If I could just lose weight then maybe some of my my other problems would also decrease. sorry for the babbling - it just seems that I finally found some people who can relate! I was wondering if topamax would help with the weight loss and how do I approach it with my doc?
thanks for any input
Posted by bridgey1128 on January 22, 2004, at 14:32:47
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by hockeymom on January 22, 2004, at 11:40:24
I am not sure if topomax is used for just depression or not. I use it for my bipolar disorder. It definitely helps you lose weight. I understand COMPLETELY! What you mean. You take AD for depression, sometimes about weight issues and they just compound the problem!!! It's a Catch 22. It really sucks. It would be worth a shot. All the drugs you have mentioned are REALLY bad at weight gain. Have you discussed how depressed you are over the weight gain? You'll always be dependant on them if you can't get rid of the reason you are on them to begin with because they are adding to the problem! Are you really, really depressed without them? Is a diet and exercise reasonable for you? These are some things to look at too. When you are depressed you don't feel like exercising but it can boost your own endorphines. Have you ever looked into the Atkins diet? Even on AD that can help. This is a message board filled to the brim with people who have tons of experience just like you! You aren't alone so hang on there girl! Don't be afraid to talk to your Dr about otehr options. This is your body, and weight is a definite issue to be talked about. He/she doesn't have to walk around with the extra pounds. Topomax MAY be an answer but I am not sure if it's just for depression. It may help the OCD, who knows! It seems to be a wonder drug actually. Good luck and God bless.
Posted by Catsy on January 22, 2004, at 15:06:39
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by nancy on April 21, 1999, at 12:00:06
I've taken topamax for five years for bipolar disorder. It helped me almost overnight. Not only with the manic symptoms but the weight gain I experienced from all of the other meds I had tried. I don't necessarily think its just a head thing with the weight, something you can merely "talk" yourself out of. This drug has helped me a lot and since I've been on it I've lost 40 pounds and I eat what I want, when I want it. Just the amount of what I eat and the frequency has changed.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:07:43
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by lizi G. on January 21, 2004, at 18:41:24
Very much!!! I think at times I could use a kick in the pants. It helps to have support when you are starting a new medication. I quit my birth control. Havent' told my boyfriend yet, but I haven't had a need to either. He smells funny :)
Have you heard about the blood tests with Topamax? My Pdoc just informed me about it.... See the following thread.
What ever will I do without Topamax? Maybe I'm just freaking myself out for no good reason. But, if I can't take it, I'l go back to being "Crazy Karen," as my friends used to call me. No Depakote for me. Thanks, but I'll pass on that one. Weight gain? Oh please, can I please pack on an extra 80 lbs, cuz I'm not fat enough already.... Sheesh!!!
Posted by headachequeen on January 22, 2004, at 16:10:20
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by Catsy on January 22, 2004, at 15:06:39
> I've taken topamax for five years for bipolar disorder. It helped me almost overnight. Not only with the manic symptoms but the weight gain I experienced from all of the other meds I had tried. I don't necessarily think its just a head thing with the weight, something you can merely "talk" yourself out of. This drug has helped me a lot and since I've been on it I've lost 40 pounds and I eat what I want, when I want it. Just the amount of what I eat and the frequency has changed.
It certainly is NOT a head thing... and nothing anyone can talk himself out of... the weight gain that comes from the meds or from depression itself is nothing one can simply will away -- it doesn't work that way; if it did think of all the slim people there would be instead of all the overweight and obese couch potatoes...
and those are people who are not dealing with med-aggravated or depression-aggravated weight problems!
Topomax does help with the weight and I wish I knew how... of late I am eating more normally but the weight is staying off...
last night, for instance, I had two baked potatoes because I was hungry, along with the green and yellow beans and baby carrots and roast beef and later in the evening a roast beef sandwich...
today all I have wanted is a bowl of soup ... it is as if the body seeks its own level in all of this food thing with the Topomax...
so far the seizures are back under control so it is doing its job and still no migraines... over a year now... so I am content...
back on biotin, remembered to pick up a refill, and the hair should soon be back to normal... found out it is the wax that holds the style together that is causing it to look so dry btw...
kat
Posted by headachequeen on January 22, 2004, at 16:31:16
In reply to Well thank you :) » lizi G., posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:07:43
>
> Have you heard about the blood tests with Topamax? My Pdoc just informed me about it.... See the following thread.
already.... Sheesh!!!
I went to the link and it mentions that the risk is one in one thousand if I read it correctly...
shall ask my doctor but I doubt if I am going to be the one in one thousand and not too worried at this point...
with two specialists looking into my eye problems any vision changes would be noticed I am sure ...
and on the list goes...
kat
Posted by LisaR on January 22, 2004, at 16:41:26
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by Catsy on January 22, 2004, at 15:06:39
I started taking topomax about 2 months ago. I am now up to 800 mg 2 times a day. That's 1600 mgs. I have not noticed any weight loss. My family thinks I am getting spacey. I feel like my moods are becoming more level. When did you start to lossing weight?
Thanks Lisa
Posted by LisaR on January 22, 2004, at 16:57:50
In reply to Re: topomax, posted by LisaR on January 22, 2004, at 16:41:26
I take the topomax for bipolor disorder.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 17:43:41
In reply to Re: topomax » Karen_kay, posted by headachequeen on January 22, 2004, at 16:31:16
Right, my Pdoc said the risk is about 1:1000. But he's not always correct. And he also said that the risk is usually in the elderly or people who have kidney or lung (or liver, can't remember) disease. He told me not to worry. He said that the thign that is the most disstressing is the fact that there will now be regular blood tests, as with most mood stabilizers and anti-convulsants. I'm still worried though. How could I not be? I'm a walking Topamax commercial!
And what about:
(Here goes my rant!!!!)
Those people who think that you don't need meds for Bipolar diorder. My friend and I were talking today and she said that the ultimate goal should be to "OVERCOME" (HUH???) it and get off meds completely.... HUH???? Like I can just fix things with the power of thought! Yeah, right. Kiss My Butt! I tried to explain, but we just agreed to disagree, this time. Oh, because she understands. She's been sad before and overcome it without medication and it's the same thing, according to her. Well, what do you say? I just said, "Well, I'll look into that one." And took my evening dose of Topamax. People sometimes, I just want to choke em! Or hug them. Whatever will get through to them!
Posted by headachequeen on January 22, 2004, at 20:51:58
In reply to Re: topomax » headachequeen, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 17:43:41
> Right, my Pdoc said the risk is about 1:1000. But he's not always correct. And he also said that the risk is usually in the elderly or people who have kidney or lung (or liver, can't remember) disease. He told me not to worry. He said that the thign that is the most disstressing is the fact that there will now be regular blood tests, as with most mood stabilizers and anti-convulsants. I'm still worried though. How could I not be? I'm a walking Topamax commercial!
>
> And what about:
>
> (Here goes my rant!!!!)
> Those people who think that you don't need meds for Bipolar diorder. My friend and I were talking today and she said that the ultimate goal should be to "OVERCOME" (HUH???) it and get off meds completely.... HUH???? Like I can just fix things with the power of thought! Yeah, right. Kiss My Butt! I tried to explain, but we just agreed to disagree, this time. Oh, because she understands. She's been sad before and overcome it without medication and it's the same thing, according to her. Well, what do you say? I just said, "Well, I'll look into that one." And took my evening dose of Topamax. People sometimes, I just want to choke em! Or hug them. Whatever will get through to them!
Karen_kay, I can relate on so many levels...
because the seizures would not stop at the former level of tegretol, the neuro said he was not going to worry about the blood work and increased the level of Tegretol... it had to be done and I accept that... I cannot go on with the constant seizures and the disruption to my life. They are not the horrid frothing at the mouth Stephen King seizures, but they do disrupt things; they happenw hen I am asleep and do not disturb other people but they can be unsettling and at times embarrassing and at times confusing when I do not know what day it is and the post-episodic period is a time of extreme fatigue... it has to stop especially when there are two or three in a night. I accept reality when it stares me in the face. The blood tests are a part of my reality. Now I guess I must ask the doctor about this blood test too.. I accept that...
What I cannot and WILL NOT accept are the people who look at one and tell one to get a grip... when one is depressed they tell one that they have been unhappy too...
oh yes, they have been sad... sad is shedding a few tears because one doesn't win a place on the cheerleading team...
unhappy is not being first in line when the store opens the day of the big sale...
depressed is spending days in a black hole that is your life... depressed is so much more than unhappy or sad...
sad is forgotten when something else comes along and makes one forget the thing that makes one sad... depressed? that takes a lot more to forget; I know I have been there -- a lot.
Oh the ultimate goal IS to overcome and to be off the meds completely... where is this person? not on this planet obviously; but it does not just happen overnight or on a whim. It requires a lot of counselling and psychotherapy and time and motivation and help and understanding and some times with some people the meds are a permanent part of living... that is reality...
it is like being an epileptic or having asthma or diabetes or a broken leg... one cannot just decide this moment to will it away...
these people are not in the real world at all...
and you did well to react as you did...
really proud to know you
kat
Posted by redscarlet on January 22, 2004, at 23:08:03
In reply to Well thank you :) » lizi G., posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:07:43
> Very much!!! I think at times I could use a kick in the pants. It helps to have support when you are starting a new medication. I quit my birth control. Havent' told my boyfriend yet, but I haven't had a need to either. He smells funny :)
>
> Have you heard about the blood tests with Topamax? My Pdoc just informed me about it.... See the following thread.> What ever will I do without Topamax? Maybe I'm just freaking myself out for no good reason. But, if I can't take it, I'l go back to being "Crazy Karen," as my friends used to call me. No Depakote for me. Thanks, but I'll pass on that one. Weight gain? Oh please, can I please pack on an extra 80 lbs, cuz I'm not fat enough already.... Sheesh!!!
>
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20040118/msgs/302926.html
***You may want to look into Zonegran if you can no longer take the Topamax. HTH
Posted by pbjc on January 25, 2004, at 18:33:18
In reply to Re: topomax » headachequeen, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 17:43:41
> (Here goes my rant!!!!)
> Those people who think that you don't need meds for Bipolar diorder. My friend and I were talking today and she said that the ultimate goal should be to "OVERCOME" (HUH???) it and get off meds completely.... HUH???? Like I can just fix things with the power of thought! Yeah, right. Kiss My Butt! I tried to explain, but we just agreed to disagree, this time. Oh, because she understands. She's been sad before and overcome it without medication and it's the same thing, according to her. Well, what do you say? I just said, "Well, I'll look into that one." And took my evening dose of Topamax. People sometimes, I just want to choke em! Or hug them. Whatever will get through to them!I just had to continue on with your Rant - what is it with people? You don't know how many of my friends and even my parents tell me I should get off my medications. They see me taking 8 different medications a day for my Bipolar II disorder and they just don't think putting all that medication in my body could be good for me. WELL, HELLO, did you ever to stop to think what I'd be like if I actually did stop taking my meds? No - they don't focus on the downside that I would have to endure(going back to my cycle of deep depressions and hypomanic episodes), they just focus on "all those meds." My attitude is if that's what it takes to keep me on an even keel, then that's the proper amount of medication. I can guarantee you that if I had cancer or AIDS, they wouldn't be encouraging me to go off my medications. They just don't get it when it comes to mental illness. There, that's my follow up Rant.
Posted by bridgey1128 on January 25, 2004, at 19:28:09
In reply to Re: topomax » Karen_kay, posted by pbjc on January 25, 2004, at 18:33:18
I agree with you totally! People act like this is all "in our heads". yeah I WISH! Then we could just think it away. It's stupid! You are absolutely right when you said if we had something like AIDS or cancer they wouldn't dare say...oh can't you just OVERCOME IT WITHOUT YOUR MEDS? DAHUR!Uh NO..it may not be a death sentence but it could be for someone who gets really depressed because they aren't on medication. And what would happen if they committed suicide...they would say...Well, if they ONLY GOT HELP! It's like we're damned if we do and damned if we don't! There is such a bias against people in this country with mental illness. I am completely upfront with all my friends and people I meet about it(people I will see again and again, not total strangers). They act like..well you don't LOOK crazy! I have to explain to them that there are many different kinds of bipolar and not just the "manic depression" that people think of when you mention it. My mania isn't that bad. It consists of hyperness and being excited and talkative when I am around friends. This I don't mind. Now the people I am talking to might! haha I don't have visions of grandeur and think I am superwoman or go out and spend hundreds of dollars etc. THANK GOD! We don't have hundreds to spend!I don't feel like the Topomax has inhibited that part of my bipolar in the least. I think it has calmed me a bit so I am not quite as....blunt, if you will. It definitely has helped my depression. The ultimate test was a couple of weeks ago. A girl I grew up with and went to church with who was my age, died in a car wreck. This just totally blew my mind. I thank God I was on medication because I don't know how far down I would have gone. Losing someone you love is bad enough, but then losing someone that was your same age, in the prime of their life, that is just life altering in a whole different way. So anyway, this is adding to your rants. I completely understand. And until these people have the same problems and concerns we do, they won't truly understand what it means to go through it. It's like a single person giving child rearing advice to a parent. JUST KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!
Posted by Karen_kay on January 25, 2004, at 20:17:55
In reply to Re: topomax » Karen_kay, posted by pbjc on January 25, 2004, at 18:33:18
Continue Rant here...
My friend had the nerve to say, "Well, what if in 10 years you develope cancer from the drugs (Ummm.. 1 drug, thank you) you're taking now." I said, "Well, I'll give you my honest answer. If I live 10 years like I'm living now (stable) and find out that I have cancer from the drug I'll be ok with that. I'd rather live 10 years feeling GREAT (and I feel WONDER-FrEaKiNg-FUL) than live 80 years like I did before." Then, she had the nerve to say, "Well, if I took Topamax, I'd get a buzz, right?" She thinks I take it for a buzz! OMG! I tried to reason with her that not all medication gives a person a buzz, but what can you do? I told her she was welcome to one, but she could have seizures. She still just didn't get it. She thought that I was happy now because I was doped up.....The nerve (ignorance???) of some people. It just made me realize, if I can't even educate my friends and my boyfriend, who I have lived with for 4 years, how in the world is there hope for others????? My moment of doubt. I'm sure it will pass, it always does....
Posted by Karen_kay on January 26, 2004, at 11:42:01
In reply to Re: topomax » pbjc, posted by Karen_kay on January 25, 2004, at 20:17:55
Not that topamax gives people seizures. I only told my friend that because she has a nasty pill problem and I don't keep a close eye on my meds. I just wanted to discourage her from taking other people's meds....Sorry, just reread my post and wouldn't want to give someone the impression that topamax causes seizures. Sorry about the confusion. (Or maybe others weren't confused. Maybe I'm just confusing myself. I'll just end this discussion right here and now.... Thanks for your patience, or lack of??? Whatever!)
Posted by PoohBear on January 26, 2004, at 12:19:35
In reply to Re: topomax » Karen_kay, posted by pbjc on January 25, 2004, at 18:33:18
PBJC:
WOW! Well said!
In church yesterday we had a time for prayer requests and someone mentioned a friend in another town who's daughter is bipolar. She went off her meds, and now she's gone... 10 days and no word.
I agree, WHY DON'T PEOPLE GET IT???
There seems to be a paperback 'guru' under every rock waiting for the opportune time to tell of the latest crazy wellness scheme to "get people of the drugs that are ruining their bodies". Like getting off your meds, hitchhiking out of your parents lives and perhaps ending up bare-naked-dead in a ditch somewhere ISN'T bad for your body???
Tell that to the parents who are worried sick about where their daughter is or if they'll ever see her again, ALIVE.
Best wishes and God Bless,
Tony
>
> > (Here goes my rant!!!!)
> > Those people who think that you don't need meds for Bipolar diorder. My friend and I were talking today and she said that the ultimate goal should be to "OVERCOME" (HUH???) it and get off meds completely.... HUH???? Like I can just fix things with the power of thought! Yeah, right. Kiss My Butt! I tried to explain, but we just agreed to disagree, this time. Oh, because she understands. She's been sad before and overcome it without medication and it's the same thing, according to her. Well, what do you say? I just said, "Well, I'll look into that one." And took my evening dose of Topamax. People sometimes, I just want to choke em! Or hug them. Whatever will get through to them!
>
> I just had to continue on with your Rant - what is it with people? You don't know how many of my friends and even my parents tell me I should get off my medications. They see me taking 8 different medications a day for my Bipolar II disorder and they just don't think putting all that medication in my body could be good for me. WELL, HELLO, did you ever to stop to think what I'd be like if I actually did stop taking my meds? No - they don't focus on the downside that I would have to endure(going back to my cycle of deep depressions and hypomanic episodes), they just focus on "all those meds." My attitude is if that's what it takes to keep me on an even keel, then that's the proper amount of medication. I can guarantee you that if I had cancer or AIDS, they wouldn't be encouraging me to go off my medications. They just don't get it when it comes to mental illness. There, that's my follow up Rant.
>
>
Posted by PoohBear on January 26, 2004, at 12:34:19
In reply to Re: topomax » pbjc, posted by Karen_kay on January 25, 2004, at 20:17:55
Karen_Kay:
A very close friend of mine is REALLY going through it with her middle son, who turned 18 yesterday and has been on again off again out of the house doing drugs with friends. Know that she's taken an anti depressant in the past (she's and RN) I asked her if she was taking anything to help with her obvious (to me) symptoms of depression, as she described them. She said that she DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE A PILL TO BE 'HAPPY'!!! A NURSE!!! I told her it had nothing to do with 'happiness' and everything to do with stabilizing her emotions which at the moment are all over the map... she said she'd talk to her GP about getting her Cylexa renewed.
She's barely able to function, her emotions are down the tube, there's a medication that has helped her in the past and could help her now, but she's afraid.
While I am in some agreement that we do need to exercise caution with medications, here was an obvious case where there use could do some good.
I'll now relinquish the soapbox to someone else...
Tony
Posted by headachequeen on January 26, 2004, at 15:59:11
In reply to Re: topomax » pbjc, posted by PoohBear on January 26, 2004, at 12:19:35
WHY DON'T PEOPLE GET IT???
>
> There seems to be a paperback 'guru' under every rock waiting for the opportune time to tell of the latest crazy wellness scheme to "get people of the drugs that are ruining their bodies".
Oh yes... if only we could throw these meds away and be free truly free of our demons...
and I pray that the missing girl is home soon and back on HER meds and safe...
however reality is that we need these meds for whatever reason...
cancer-causing as someone was told???
A dear and precious friend of mine was dying of cancer and his wife, the original witch if ever there were one, flushed his meds and pain-killers down the toilet because that was all that was wrong with him - he was addicted to the pain-killers and drugs and if he quit taking them he would be fine...
People are so confused....
I mentioned a while ago the woman who told me that if I stopped wasting all that money on drugs I would be just fine...
Mmmhmmm just go cold turkey and get well...
I did go cold turkey as far as zyprexa and effexor and immovane were concerned and that worked --THAT TIME...
but I am asthmatic -- severely so and I need those meds to let me breathe, something I am fond of doing...
I am an epileptic and I need Tegritol much as it gripes me to admit it, and I need Topomax if I want to avoid constant seizures... something I prefer to not have in my life...
I have severe allergies that make my asthma worse so I need the antihistamine...
oh and the high blood pressure makes me a candidate for stroke...
so we need to keep taking those pills too...
and apparently I have high cholesterol and the doctor thinks I should keep taking the stuff to keep it down...
He is not one of these pills are everything types so I think I can trust his judgement in these things...
I have no immune system and a mosquito bite or a simple cut means that I have to have antibiotics with all too alarming frequency-- often intravenously... and that is so much fun! I live for the moments...
Yes, I suppose if we all smartened up and learned to do without these medications we would be much better off.
We should just stop being so immature and throw away the meds for bi-polar disorders, depression, epilepsy, whatever...
after all, it is all in our heads anyway....by the way, has any of these know-it-all types ever produced a medical degree or psychology degree????
Until they do, they should simply back off and let us find the best way we can to find healing and support because obviously they provide neither....
and they are so totally annoying and destructive...especially when someone falls into the traps they set...
kat the totally furious
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