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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 21:09:24
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by burnedout on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:58
an elegant ramble i hope all understand. yeah, benzos stopped my panic, as well as the biz accumen---i guess a couple shrink drugs, over time, have lost me 30-40 mil net worth,but worst the appreciation of my children. gone. that's why i must taper-off benzos---living a month on your former day's net-net---not fun. i want that money---i'll take the panic. or be broke. so what if i was an immobile qivering heap for maybe hours sometimes. the rest of the time---took care of biz---after xanax? duh? say what? make money? who cares?---it does that. or let you miss your kids graduation and feel nothing. i was scripted these meds innocently, years ago. before they were widely known problems, a couple drs. warned me, rest said ok. they never felt 'emotional blunting'---their clients did. regards
Posted by Viridis on December 4, 2003, at 21:48:42
In reply to A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 3, 2003, at 21:58:13
Xanax does seem to carry a higher risk of dependency or even addiction than other benzos, but it's also a great med for the appropriate patients, given good medical supervision.
I've been taking Klonopin and Xanax for over 2 1/2 years now, for debilitating anxiety and depression. These drugs have made a huge difference in my life, and I use them very responsibly. I take 1 mg Klonopin/day and haven't had to increase the dose; side effects were minor and went away quickly, and now I notice absolutely nothing (other than a major decrease in anxiety). I have no doubt that if I stop taking it I'll have to taper off, but it's worth it, and the health risks of constant stress are almost certainly greater than the risks of benzos.
Xanax is a somewhat different beast for me -- I just use it occasionally, for "breakthrough" anxiety or insomnia. Even used rarely (maybe once every week or two), I developed substantial tolerance to its effects and have to take several times as much as I did originally to achieve the same effect. So, I use it very sparingly, but it's great to have when I really need it.
I've discussed all of this with my pdoc, and he agrees that Xanax is much riskier than Klonopin -- but he also agrees that it's very effective. So, he continues to prescribe the same (small) monthly amount, and essentially says to take as much as I need when I need it. He wasn't too surprised by the tolerance, and mainly is concerned that if my frequency of use increases then it's probably time to discontinue it. Using it a few times a month isn't going to get me into trouble, but I wouldn't want to depend on it as a regular anxiolytic.
BTW, I agree that Xanax has mood-lifting effects and have known people who got into real trouble with it. It doesn't seem to make me euphoric, though, so I don't have any incentive to take more than what works for anxiety, or to take it often. It's not a "bad" drug, just one that has to be used carefully and monitored properly, as with other psychiatric meds.
And, despite the hysteria of some of the benzophobes, two of the most commonly prescribed antidepressants (Paxil and Effexor) outrank Xanax in terms of discontinuation difficulty, according to the World Health Organization.
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 22:31:57
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by Viridis on December 4, 2003, at 21:48:42
1mg/day klonopin, xanax as needed. call me a benzo-phobe--victim is more accurate--odds are you're addicted to klonopin after 21/2 year's continuous use. you won't know till you try and taper-down. only then will you have the faintest idea of what we, who have been there, are 'hollering' about---world-wide millions. while you're at it, you might want to search, 'long-term benzodiazapine brain damage'.
you could be the 1 in a mil---no problems. good luck. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 23:15:51
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 9:49:39
if effexor works--it works, no problem there.
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 0:01:54
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:25:24
i've sat in on math-argumenting 'experts' at the princeton instutue. didn't get much, but they, as most scientist in coversation simply would say, 'you don't know what you're talking about.' no one gets ruffled. so why should you, i don't. if you may speak of stopping benzos, from experience, you know. if not, you don't. why get 'defensive' on presentation of arguement? my position is clearly benzos are ok for short medical procedures, or very infrequent low-dose use. otherwise---you'll find out for yourself--no fun---no words for it. good luck
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 0:15:05
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by burnedout on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:58
benzo and super-benzo neuroleptics have a global estimated 20,000,000+ victims. it's like a mental holaucast. thank you for seeing the problem. don't get caught, few come back. sad but true.
Posted by Viridis on December 5, 2003, at 0:34:12
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 22:31:57
I'm not sure where all of this is coming from -- I recognize that after long-term use of Klonopin, it may be difficult to come off. However, my psychiatrist has dealt with many patients using this and other benzos, is very honest (and has used some of these meds himself) and has informed me of the risks and discontinuation procedures. I may be dependent, but I'm not "addicted", in the sense that I'm not using these meds recreationally, obsessing over them, etc.
I've taken a variety of psychiatric drugs and do best with benzos. They've been in use for decades and by all indications are among the safest and most benign of the bunch. Some people do have problems with this class of meds and should probably avoid them. I don't seem to fall into this category, nor do the vast majority of other benzo users.
As for brain damage, constant anxiety and depression appear much more dangerous, with considerable evidence of extensive brain cell death for those with untreated anxiety/depression, not to mention diminished immune system function, increased risk of hypertension, heart problems, etc.
Some people really do have better lives with these meds, and it's a shame that many are denied the opportunity due to unfounded biases.
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 0:41:47
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:25:24
i'm a bit older---thanks for what eventually became as a post-grad 'round'. i always stress each person is unique--but i also know long-term benzos--drop 'em on a rock daily'---stop suddenly--crazy rock. i've got 30 mails/day from here, and 50 globally. time is short. my interest on this board isn't even benzos, rather the now proven link between near all mental-illness and pathogenic nervous-system invasion. let dr. heather ashton handle benzos at 'benzos.org.uk---nuff said. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 0:53:24
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Viridis on December 5, 2003, at 0:34:12
keyword 'unfounded biases'---you're wrong---my foundation is decades strong. yes, depression/anxiety produce apparent brain damage. even ADs, but non-medical anxiety has many treatments. cognitive works for many, or tofranil, nardil, etc. none in the least with addiction porential. if you do not consider long-term benzo use addictive---i suggest you quit--find out by experimental method. please let me know.
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 1:03:16
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by Waterlily on December 4, 2003, at 7:53:45
really try and keep the same infrequent use. that's maybe safe. current law and protocol make your dr. seem perhaps not up-to-date or unethical. please be caefull. and search dr.heather ashton. asap.
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 1:11:53
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by loni on December 4, 2003, at 8:24:51
i'm worse off than a shrink with a thousand patients--i never expected it. use the net---look at old posts---i'm burned-out right now. i wanta movie. ok? do what you do.
Posted by Viridis on December 5, 2003, at 3:32:17
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 1:11:53
I've seen the Ashton sites, and simply don't agree with the anti-benzo message. It doesn't take into account individual variation, although she does provide useful advce on withdrawal for those who have problems with benzos.
And I can assure you, my pdoc is both current and highly ethical. He's very alert to signs of benzo misuse and told me upfront that if he sees any signs of abuse ("lost" prescriptions etc.) he will insist on immediate discontinuation. He also has maintained many patients on Klonopin for years and says that he almost never sees abuse of this med, with most patients staying at the same dose indefinitely. As for Xanax -- he's extremely careful with that and only allows limited use. I take much less in a month than many people take in a day.
We discussed discontinuation protocols extensively, and he's very experienced with that. The bottom line is that some people do best with these older drugs. Believe me, I've tried many of the newer ADs etc., with mediocre to disastrous results, and am much more comfortable and healthy with benzos.
We all respond differently, and it's not helpful to demonize one class of meds that can be very beneficial to some people.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2003, at 3:38:04
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 1:45:57
> you don't know what you're talking about.
> you 'clog' my inbox by intent
Please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2003, at 3:44:38
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 6:58:56
> That is an unfounded, slanderous allegation
>
> You misused Xanax in an EPIC (and to my mind -- my opinion only -- , perverse way).
> What do you expect when you misuse a drug so utterly and completely?
>
> you profligately and recklessly misused and abused a drug.Please don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down. The last time you were blocked it was for 2 weeks, so this time it's for 6.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by MBL on December 5, 2003, at 7:22:51
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 16:38:30
No, Maxx, I was speaking of effexor that is working so well for me.
> hi. are you speaking of xanax or effexor? if xanax, how much/day?---makes everybody feel great---so it's become a major 'street-drug'. if you use daily, please don't just run-out--if you're talking xanax or any benzo, that would explain utah. how did you find a dr. to script it? very rare these days, unless you've the empty bottle. even then, now, most will turn you away---unwise as they should know you must taper benzos and be kind, leaving that deal to your primary dr. recovering long-term daily benzo users is considered a cake-walk vs. heroin, alcohol, ADs, etc. any dr. now scripting a benzo for just aniety, may lose liscense to practice---fact not hearsay. disabling panic, terminal illness, or low-dose infrequent use---ok. i'd think moderate
> red-wine safer for 'general anxiety'. check out dr. heather ashton's site. and benzos.org.uk--if you're using xanax daily. regards
Posted by moose100 on December 5, 2003, at 8:24:59
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 16:38:30
> hi. are you speaking of xanax or effexor? if xanax, how much/day?---makes everybody feel great---so it's become a major 'street-drug'. if you use daily, please don't just run-out--if you're talking xanax or any benzo, that would explain utah. how did you find a dr. to script it? very rare these days, unless you've the empty bottle. even then, now, most will turn you away---unwise as they should know you must taper benzos and be kind, leaving that deal to your primary dr. recovering long-term daily benzo users is considered a cake-walk vs. heroin, alcohol, ADs, etc. any dr. now scripting a benzo for just aniety, may lose liscense to practice---fact not hearsay. disabling panic, terminal illness, or low-dose infrequent use---ok. i'd think moderate
> red-wine safer for 'general anxiety'. check out dr. heather ashton's site. and benzos.org.uk--if you're using xanax daily. regardsNo mention of Xanax in my post. I was talking about Effexor.
Posted by burnedout on December 5, 2003, at 10:35:53
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by moose100 on December 5, 2003, at 8:24:59
Moose,
I'll be happy to talk about Effexor XR again.
I've been through it.
I've been in the hospital because of it.
My doctor only had the published information on how to do a withdrawal--which was quite different from the information the company gave me.
Had they published that, it may have saved at least some of the torture of coming off it.
Wyeth's monography for side effects are different in the US than in other countries (they list many more for outside the US markets.)
I think I know how to get through withdrawal.
I absolutely know what withdrawal is like.
Even a year out now, I'm am still experiencing effects--since it's been so long, I imagine it's no longer the drug, but permanent damage.
YES! I will be happy to talk about Effexor.
It works for lots of people but they don't (at least up until recently) tell you what can happen when you go off it. --and from my experience, they don't or at least didn't tell the doctors either.
Yes! I'll be happy to talk of just Effexor-XR.
Posted by moose100 on December 5, 2003, at 11:03:03
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again?? » moose100, posted by burnedout on December 5, 2003, at 10:35:53
> Moose,
>
> I'll be happy to talk about Effexor XR again.
>
> I've been through it.
>
> I've been in the hospital because of it.
>
> My doctor only had the published information on how to do a withdrawal--which was quite different from the information the company gave me.
>
> Had they published that, it may have saved at least some of the torture of coming off it.
>
> Wyeth's monography for side effects are different in the US than in other countries (they list many more for outside the US markets.)
>
> I think I know how to get through withdrawal.
>
> I absolutely know what withdrawal is like.
>
> Even a year out now, I'm am still experiencing effects--since it's been so long, I imagine it's no longer the drug, but permanent damage.
>
> YES! I will be happy to talk about Effexor.
>
> It works for lots of people but they don't (at least up until recently) tell you what can happen when you go off it. --and from my experience, they don't or at least didn't tell the doctors either.
>
> Yes! I'll be happy to talk of just Effexor-XR.
>
These threads are getting awfully mixed up. MBL started this thread conveying her positive experience with Effexor. I responded in kind, eager to chat about the positive changes I noticed in myself. The next thing I know I get a message telling me to beware of Xanax. I don't take Xanax. With regard to your post, I deeply sympathize with the problems you experienced upon withdrawel. However, the thread was intended, I believe, to focus on positive experiences with Effexor. Again, I'm sorry for the horrific problems you experienced.
Posted by loni on December 5, 2003, at 11:34:20
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again?? » moose100, posted by burnedout on December 5, 2003, at 10:35:53
You know, I've worried about that too. Permanent damage. 1.5 years out, I'm still having memory and comprehension issues. I'm still having problems with balance. I no longer have seizures or intense head pain. I do have deep pain in my bones and muscles, but this could be due to changes in my dosage for Parnate. I get too tired very easily and if I face any kind of high stress, my body and mind shut down. I have no other way to describe it. I curl up in a ball and my body just goes to sleep. I used to thrive on stress. I'm not good at multi-tasking anymore. I have to focus on ONE thing at a time or I get overwhelmed very easily.
My body and weight have changed back with help from the Parnate. I no longer have "Effexor belly" which had me wearing maternity clothes (even though I wasn't pregnant, I sure looked like it!) I'm so glad that Effexor works for some people. I loved it for a year. It was the next two years and then the W/D that didn't go so well.
In some ways, I am still in recovery but proceeding very, very slowly. I often have to remind people close to me that I am still in recovery. They don't always understand when I need to lay down (need to!) or when I can't focus on them and something else too. Or when I can't step back onto my exhilerating fast track corporate job. I went from 6 figures to barely 5 figures...usually 4 figures with the hours I have to keep. Sometimes I think that physical therapy would really help but my insurance wouldn't pay for it and I can't afford it.
It is a tough judgement call, the Effexor. Because you don't know ahead of time if you will be one of the lucky ones that it works for. Especially since it works so well early on.
Posted by burnedout on December 5, 2003, at 11:38:41
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Viridis on December 5, 2003, at 3:32:17
Viridis,
I agree with much of what you have to say.
My pdoc will not even prescribe Xanax or Ativan anymore, but he does prescribe Klonopin.I hope he is right about it being less of a challenge to come off of than Xanax or Ativan.
He is also vigilant for signs of my body starting to "need" it and so am I.
We have my dose of Klonopin where it needs to be to relieve the anxiety/stress (PTSD). If we see that I'm starting to need more to get the same results, that's the RED flag. That's when instead of going up, we will start backing me off.
Your statement though, that when your doctor sees signs of you needing more of the benzo, will cause an "immediate" stop, concerns me.
I hope the "immediate" really means taper-off.
If you are take more than a certain amount of Xanax, Ativan, Klonopin, there is a high probability of a seizure if "immediately" stopped.
My doc didn't tell me how many Klonopin it is, but he did tell me that 3 mg of Ativan/day is "iffy," 4 mg. & above is an almost definite. He didn't say how much Xanax was the equivalent to watch out for, but somewhere I read that 1.5/mg/day over a couple of weeks would be not advisable. So it's number may be around there?
As far as benzo-phobia, I probably have that, but I have no choice but to take the stuff. My doc says I should be thankful that we've found something that works. And I am. Even though I hate to have to take it.
I imagine a Chemotherapy patient feels much the same way. They know the damage that therapy can do to their body and how uncomfortable it is to take go through it all, but given the choices, it's the only option if you want to survive a bit longer.
In reserve, I have a quantity of Ativan, in case of a "breakthrough" need. I have signs posted all over the house to take it, if I get into trouble. Otherwise I will wind up wishing I had. (benzo-phobia)
I've had to use it twice in eight months--but only when there was no other choice.
A few weeks ago, I had to execute our (the doc's & mine) mergency plan & take 1mg every hour until I either got better or feel asleep. The stragety being that going to sleep was preferable to having so much panic/anxiety that I would end up in the hospital or do something worse.
At the end of the third hour, after three pills, I was still going downhill, but it was slowing and mercifully, I feel asleep. The emergency plan worked.
Before the Klonopin, I had been taking 3 mgs/Atavan/day for two years! The switch to Klonopin was hardly noticeable--I was lucky.
From only my personal experience, the person who said that a "world organization" that tracks the difficutly of comming off benzos compared to SSRIs found that the SSRIs to be worse, I would strongly agree.
As I mentioned, I had been on Ativan for two years. I went through withdrawal from it. I suppose it is close to Xanax.
I've gone through withdrawal from Effexor-XR, a SSNRI, a little more potent than Paxil, which is an SSRI.
So I've had to go through "discontinuation" of both.
For this body:
Even though EXtremely unpleasant//////////////////
I would take the witdrawal from the benzo, ANYtime, compared to that of the SSRI.
Posted by burnedout on December 5, 2003, at 12:21:09
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by moose100 on December 5, 2003, at 11:03:03
Ok, I didn't read far enough back to know that this was a thread about the good of Effexor.
A comment on that:
After 4 weeks at 75 mg./d, I finally went up to 150 mg/d, which I think is the lowest level that is considered "theraputic."
Almost immediately, my depression & anxiety easied. It was a blessing. --until three days later, when it got me.
So it is good for those who can take it.
But no matter whether it is good for you or not, if you've taken it for more than a couple of weeks, I think it is probably inadvisable to stop cold turkey.
So, yay for the good it does.
Be careful when coming off it.
It usually takes 4-6 weeks for an anti-depressant to fully work. But, if you're not out of the woods on the "side-effects" by the end of the 2nd week, and I think this may hold true for most anti-depressant, get off it quickly and try something else.
Posted by J9 on December 5, 2003, at 16:48:15
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dosage? » lg, posted by sasha71 on December 1, 2003, at 7:58:09
I have been on effexor for approximatley 4 months now. I take 150mg first thing in the morning because it gives me energy to get through the day. I love what effexor xr has done for me. It helped my marriage, job, and general everyday life. My only SE is that it is hard to sleep at night, therefore I take 100mg of Trazadone, which I also love. I have very vivid dreams of which I can pick. How you ask? I chose what I want to dream of as I am falling asleep and I dream of it!!!
I have not had one SE that has been posted on this board. This is the best med I have ever taken and hope to continue on.
Just my story.
J9
Posted by moose100 on December 5, 2003, at 18:51:57
In reply to Just my story, Effexor XR success, posted by J9 on December 5, 2003, at 16:48:15
> I have been on effexor for approximatley 4 months now. I take 150mg first thing in the morning because it gives me energy to get through the day. I love what effexor xr has done for me. It helped my marriage, job, and general everyday life. My only SE is that it is hard to sleep at night, therefore I take 100mg of Trazadone, which I also love. I have very vivid dreams of which I can pick. How you ask? I chose what I want to dream of as I am falling asleep and I dream of it!!!
>
> I have not had one SE that has been posted on this board. This is the best med I have ever taken and hope to continue on.
>
> Just my story.
>
> J9
Thanks for posting. You made my day.
Posted by camel on December 5, 2003, at 19:03:01
In reply to Re: Just my story, Effexor XR success, posted by moose100 on December 5, 2003, at 18:51:57
I feel the same.......however....having gone thru Paxil withdrawl I know when the time comes it may be a problem...but for now I am very happy...and loving each minute of each day!!!!
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 19:11:09
In reply to Re: Just my story, Effexor XR success, posted by moose100 on December 5, 2003, at 18:51:57
good to hear. and trazadone, i've used it off and on for years---i think it's one of the Great ADs. not many modern drs. think of it as more than a sleep-inducer---it's an 'odd-bird' of ADs---kind of in its own category. all i know is it works---good to hear a happy effexor result---whatever floats your boat.
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