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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 9:49:39
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:25:24
Clayton...not to jump in on your conversation with Maxx but I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth regarding your friend and taking Effexor....I understand your concern after reading so much here and other sites....but as we all know the med reacts differently in everyone. I am going on 3 months now and stil have no s/e nor do I feel the least bit medicated. I was on Paxil for over 2 years and I feel much better on E. If your friend has been prescribed E it must have been for a good reason....if he has tried other avenues to alleviate whatever he is suffering from and has found no relief than maybe just some support and encouragement w/ a little advice is just the right approach. Again..just my 2 cents!!
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:52:13
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by loni on December 4, 2003, at 8:24:51
Hey, thanks form helping to make peace here! I would never have done those multiple posts on purpose. What would I gain?
By the way, the days when the docs can "calcualte" the right med for you are years off. We know so much but we know so little.
Until them, all we can do is educate ourselves as best we can, choose the best docs we can and then make our best juggement as to whether or not to accept the docs best judgement on a med recomendation. That IS the state od the art.
WE must still use our best judgement and if it doesn't work out, we try again.
Good Luck!
Posted by MBL on December 4, 2003, at 10:03:57
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by moose100 on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:06
Moose - thank you as well...isn't it nice when we can focus on what's important in life?!
MBL> > coming from someone who has had great success on this med for about a year, and was naieve enough to not even know that people were suffering from all of these side effects until I accidentally found this site yesterday, it does work wonders for some.....I hope those people wont be scared off, because if I saw these posts prior to taking it, I would not have tried it!
> > In my situation, I did not have severe depression or severe panic attacks, but more, I think, a lot of stress, and had gotten to the point that I could not always control my anxities. When I got home from work at the end of the day, and my husband and kids were all getting home, that was the worst. It was all I could do to not scream "everyone get the "F" away from me, let me have a glass of wine, a ciggarette, cook dinner, and then maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to sit down and talk to everyone about their day!"
> > Now I enjoy all of the kid questions and the good and bad parts of their days. And I enjoy sharing mine with them.
> > Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I am so grateful for feeling this way. It was the 4th or 5th med I tried. Some didn't work at all. Some worked for a month or so. This has worked consistently for a year, with no side effects. I also forgot to take it on vacation once, and not knowing the terrible ramifications from withdrawl, thought that I had altitude sickness in Utah! I got the brain having trouble keeping up with the skull thing after about 3 days. Then was perfectly fine after getting back on it. When I did it the 2nd time, I figured it out!
> > Well shame on my doc, and shame on me for not being more educated But again, I'm glad hearing all the possible side effects didn't have the chance of scaring me off.
> > I have a better relationship with myself and everyone around me, and I attribute it to effexor helping me to think rationally enough to do that!
> Hi: Happy to hear E works for you! I, too am pleased with the changes brought about by this medication. I am into my ninth week. I still have occasional sweats and some minor sexual side effects. But, saying goodbye, at least for now to the overwhelming anxiety, irritability, and anger has been wonderful. Something you stated made me smile. Prior to Effexor, I would come home from work and not want anyone to talk to me until I was completely relaxed. Now, I come home with a smile and am ready to hear about everyone's day. My mind has stopped racing at warp speed and I can actually think and speak clearly. I must say I have been horrified by all of the negative reaction to Effexor on these boards. Hopefully, it will continue working for me. Thanks for sharing your positive experience.
>
>
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:06:35
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by burnedout on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:58
Thank you for the wonderful post. It was beautiful, well-written and highly intelligent.
You have said so many things that I have been trying to say but you have said them so much better.
Yes, the meds will fail.
In the end, all we have is each other.
In the end, all we can do is try to make each others' mortal presence a bit brighter and less painful.
There are many graet mysteries and wonderful diversions in life. But in the final analysis, the only thing of real worth is other human beings.
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:50:29
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 9:49:39
Thank you for your kindness in writting. The stories I have read on Psyco-babble have been enough to give me nightmares.
I appreciate your point of view because I must soon make a decision on a new AD. I have been completely immune to side-effects and withdrawal effects from all other ADs and Benzos I've tried. I seem to be lucky that way. Perhaps I should take a chance on Effexor. I KNOW I need to boost norepinephrine as-well-as seratonin. I have also been told by good sources that if Effexor works for you, it is "solid gold".
Please keep me up-to-date and let me know how you are doing. I have a big decision to make.
Thanks so very much!
Posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 10:59:35
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » camel, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:50:29
Clayton...you are most welcome. I think it comes down to whatever works for you...run with it!!! From what I can tell reading here...if Effexor is going to give you problems it will happen VERY rapidly. Good luck to you and your friend. K
Posted by gator58 on December 4, 2003, at 12:11:15
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 10:59:35
How long is too long to be on Xanax? I'm in my third year.
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 16:38:30
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by moose100 on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:06
hi. are you speaking of xanax or effexor? if xanax, how much/day?---makes everybody feel great---so it's become a major 'street-drug'. if you use daily, please don't just run-out--if you're talking xanax or any benzo, that would explain utah. how did you find a dr. to script it? very rare these days, unless you've the empty bottle. even then, now, most will turn you away---unwise as they should know you must taper benzos and be kind, leaving that deal to your primary dr. recovering long-term daily benzo users is considered a cake-walk vs. heroin, alcohol, ADs, etc. any dr. now scripting a benzo for just aniety, may lose liscense to practice---fact not hearsay. disabling panic, terminal illness, or low-dose infrequent use---ok. i'd think moderate
red-wine safer for 'general anxiety'. check out dr. heather ashton's site. and benzos.org.uk--if you're using xanax daily. regards
Posted by KimberlyDi on December 4, 2003, at 16:51:26
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » camel, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:50:29
I've said that before: "If it works for you, it's solid gold." It was, and I would still be on it if it weren't for blood pressure problems. Don't let the withdrawal issue scare you off. It does exist, but people are learning to taper off it slowly.
Best of luck to you!
KDi in TX> Thank you for your kindness in writting. The stories I have read on Psyco-babble have been enough to give me nightmares.
>
> I appreciate your point of view because I must soon make a decision on a new AD. I have been completely immune to side-effects and withdrawal effects from all other ADs and Benzos I've tried. I seem to be lucky that way. Perhaps I should take a chance on Effexor. I KNOW I need to boost norepinephrine as-well-as seratonin. I have also been told by good sources that if Effexor works for you, it is "solid gold".
>
> Please keep me up-to-date and let me know how you are doing. I have a big decision to make.
>
> Thanks so very much!
Posted by jparsell82 on December 4, 2003, at 18:12:57
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » camel, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:50:29
Hi Clayton, I was curious. Are/were your taking the regular xanax? Have you tried the XR form? I currently am taking 2mg Xanax XR plus a low dose of prozac daily for Social Anxiety/OCD/Depression. I too tried Klonopin in the past and had horrible memory impairment and mental sluggishness. I was surprised with Xanax that I did not have the mental impairments, I was predicting it would be worse than the Klonopin. There probably is a little cognitive impairment from the Xanax, but it is doing more good for me than bad. My doctor though, is only allowing me to use the Xanax for a 3 or 4 month period. He says, "just time enough to get my anxiety under control", and then I can taper off and just stay on Prozac for long-term. Hmmmm... time will tell. I'd also like to note that I've tried Effexor before and it didn't help a whole lot on the anxiety/nervousness side of social phobia but it helps a lot in the area of social motivation. I was more aggressive and had a stronger desire to socialize. Probably because of it's effects on norepinephrine. Just this week I got the idea of trying Tribulus terrestris with my Xanax & Prozac because of it's supposed to have effects on testosterone & norepinephrine. So I tried, and honestly, was amazed. It made me more vigorous and pro-social. I was talking to people I normally wouldn't talk to at work and doing it with more enthusiasm. Anyways, my combo of Xanax/Prozac/Tribulus seems to be working good for my social anxiety. I'm a little worried about the time when I have to taper off the Xanax though.
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 18:30:47
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by gator58 on December 4, 2003, at 12:11:15
depends on dosage and has it been more or less continuous? go to dr. heather ashton's site, or benzos.org.uk---the ashton manual is The global standard on these drugs, it used to be pricey---now free online. 3 years? don't just stop--you'll have to taper. quick detox for long-term (year+)use is pure bs. i do not advise, from my experience and hundreds of contacts, getting into circumstances where you 'run-out'. and many drs., clinics, etc. need money---they'll say they can 'recover' you in 28 days. bull, bull, bull.
you're probably looking at a 6 month's or year's taper. not a bad price for freedom. you may search 'stevie nick's (fleetwood mac) klonopin story. this is not a 'benzo board'---you may visit some of them. i don't know you, but 3 years?
you may have an easy taper and 'the happy ending'---especially if you are under 45 or so. as for the 'benzos are great continuously' posters, blasting away with bold print? continous use, long-term? you need no 'addictive personality' to get nailed. that happens to everyone, long-term. every...last...one. look at the posts on benzos.org.uk showing sweden pays for 8 month's hospitalization for benzo detox. does that sound like a laughing matter.? not really---good luck on your taper. go easy. only way out. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 20:26:44
In reply to Clayton... Xanax Xr, etc » Clayton, posted by jparsell82 on December 4, 2003, at 18:12:57
trilibus, testosterone---interesting. i've mentioned xanax is a popular 'street-drug' for body-builders, due to its DHEA enhancment---that boosts testosterone, but also estrogen. xanax is unique that way. before being switched, as a man over 50, to librium, i had a lot more physical energy. i'm guessing trilibus is a natural 'steroid'? as body-builders use it, like xanax. i don't think you'll get zapped by 4 mos. xanax, as long as you have a probably short taper.
DHEA is 'over-the-counter', but any male using it, or its enhancers is usually advised to a full prostate exam. these things all interact. ie., if your blood-work showed elevated PSA, you'd be yanked from DHEA, xanax, or any steroid---pronto. i certainly miss xanax, and having inoperable 'surfing-accident' neural damage, i'm the 1/million approved for life. but just as you never turn your back on a wave, unless you're me when dumb, you gotta watch hormones, steroids, supplements, drugs etc. for physical stuff as well as mental. i'm due for a physical, and if all clear, i'll asked to be switched back to xanax. i Know benzos are like that wave, i know they are incredibly dangerous---but i have a fat neve bundle crushed as a spinal injury that effects the brain's panic center. you probably don't. having experienced acute benzo withdrawal---and knowing hundreds of others who have---makes hell look kind---that's why your dr. has set that limit on xanax. i'd stick to it. real spooky is likely what you'll feel, but not nuked-pschycotic, and in the er.
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 21:09:24
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by burnedout on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:58
an elegant ramble i hope all understand. yeah, benzos stopped my panic, as well as the biz accumen---i guess a couple shrink drugs, over time, have lost me 30-40 mil net worth,but worst the appreciation of my children. gone. that's why i must taper-off benzos---living a month on your former day's net-net---not fun. i want that money---i'll take the panic. or be broke. so what if i was an immobile qivering heap for maybe hours sometimes. the rest of the time---took care of biz---after xanax? duh? say what? make money? who cares?---it does that. or let you miss your kids graduation and feel nothing. i was scripted these meds innocently, years ago. before they were widely known problems, a couple drs. warned me, rest said ok. they never felt 'emotional blunting'---their clients did. regards
Posted by Viridis on December 4, 2003, at 21:48:42
In reply to A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 3, 2003, at 21:58:13
Xanax does seem to carry a higher risk of dependency or even addiction than other benzos, but it's also a great med for the appropriate patients, given good medical supervision.
I've been taking Klonopin and Xanax for over 2 1/2 years now, for debilitating anxiety and depression. These drugs have made a huge difference in my life, and I use them very responsibly. I take 1 mg Klonopin/day and haven't had to increase the dose; side effects were minor and went away quickly, and now I notice absolutely nothing (other than a major decrease in anxiety). I have no doubt that if I stop taking it I'll have to taper off, but it's worth it, and the health risks of constant stress are almost certainly greater than the risks of benzos.
Xanax is a somewhat different beast for me -- I just use it occasionally, for "breakthrough" anxiety or insomnia. Even used rarely (maybe once every week or two), I developed substantial tolerance to its effects and have to take several times as much as I did originally to achieve the same effect. So, I use it very sparingly, but it's great to have when I really need it.
I've discussed all of this with my pdoc, and he agrees that Xanax is much riskier than Klonopin -- but he also agrees that it's very effective. So, he continues to prescribe the same (small) monthly amount, and essentially says to take as much as I need when I need it. He wasn't too surprised by the tolerance, and mainly is concerned that if my frequency of use increases then it's probably time to discontinue it. Using it a few times a month isn't going to get me into trouble, but I wouldn't want to depend on it as a regular anxiolytic.
BTW, I agree that Xanax has mood-lifting effects and have known people who got into real trouble with it. It doesn't seem to make me euphoric, though, so I don't have any incentive to take more than what works for anxiety, or to take it often. It's not a "bad" drug, just one that has to be used carefully and monitored properly, as with other psychiatric meds.
And, despite the hysteria of some of the benzophobes, two of the most commonly prescribed antidepressants (Paxil and Effexor) outrank Xanax in terms of discontinuation difficulty, according to the World Health Organization.
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 22:31:57
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by Viridis on December 4, 2003, at 21:48:42
1mg/day klonopin, xanax as needed. call me a benzo-phobe--victim is more accurate--odds are you're addicted to klonopin after 21/2 year's continuous use. you won't know till you try and taper-down. only then will you have the faintest idea of what we, who have been there, are 'hollering' about---world-wide millions. while you're at it, you might want to search, 'long-term benzodiazapine brain damage'.
you could be the 1 in a mil---no problems. good luck. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 23:15:51
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 9:49:39
if effexor works--it works, no problem there.
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 0:01:54
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:25:24
i've sat in on math-argumenting 'experts' at the princeton instutue. didn't get much, but they, as most scientist in coversation simply would say, 'you don't know what you're talking about.' no one gets ruffled. so why should you, i don't. if you may speak of stopping benzos, from experience, you know. if not, you don't. why get 'defensive' on presentation of arguement? my position is clearly benzos are ok for short medical procedures, or very infrequent low-dose use. otherwise---you'll find out for yourself--no fun---no words for it. good luck
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 0:15:05
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by burnedout on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:58
benzo and super-benzo neuroleptics have a global estimated 20,000,000+ victims. it's like a mental holaucast. thank you for seeing the problem. don't get caught, few come back. sad but true.
Posted by Viridis on December 5, 2003, at 0:34:12
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 22:31:57
I'm not sure where all of this is coming from -- I recognize that after long-term use of Klonopin, it may be difficult to come off. However, my psychiatrist has dealt with many patients using this and other benzos, is very honest (and has used some of these meds himself) and has informed me of the risks and discontinuation procedures. I may be dependent, but I'm not "addicted", in the sense that I'm not using these meds recreationally, obsessing over them, etc.
I've taken a variety of psychiatric drugs and do best with benzos. They've been in use for decades and by all indications are among the safest and most benign of the bunch. Some people do have problems with this class of meds and should probably avoid them. I don't seem to fall into this category, nor do the vast majority of other benzo users.
As for brain damage, constant anxiety and depression appear much more dangerous, with considerable evidence of extensive brain cell death for those with untreated anxiety/depression, not to mention diminished immune system function, increased risk of hypertension, heart problems, etc.
Some people really do have better lives with these meds, and it's a shame that many are denied the opportunity due to unfounded biases.
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 0:41:47
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:25:24
i'm a bit older---thanks for what eventually became as a post-grad 'round'. i always stress each person is unique--but i also know long-term benzos--drop 'em on a rock daily'---stop suddenly--crazy rock. i've got 30 mails/day from here, and 50 globally. time is short. my interest on this board isn't even benzos, rather the now proven link between near all mental-illness and pathogenic nervous-system invasion. let dr. heather ashton handle benzos at 'benzos.org.uk---nuff said. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 0:53:24
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Viridis on December 5, 2003, at 0:34:12
keyword 'unfounded biases'---you're wrong---my foundation is decades strong. yes, depression/anxiety produce apparent brain damage. even ADs, but non-medical anxiety has many treatments. cognitive works for many, or tofranil, nardil, etc. none in the least with addiction porential. if you do not consider long-term benzo use addictive---i suggest you quit--find out by experimental method. please let me know.
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 1:03:16
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by Waterlily on December 4, 2003, at 7:53:45
really try and keep the same infrequent use. that's maybe safe. current law and protocol make your dr. seem perhaps not up-to-date or unethical. please be caefull. and search dr.heather ashton. asap.
Posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 1:11:53
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by loni on December 4, 2003, at 8:24:51
i'm worse off than a shrink with a thousand patients--i never expected it. use the net---look at old posts---i'm burned-out right now. i wanta movie. ok? do what you do.
Posted by Viridis on December 5, 2003, at 3:32:17
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 5, 2003, at 1:11:53
I've seen the Ashton sites, and simply don't agree with the anti-benzo message. It doesn't take into account individual variation, although she does provide useful advce on withdrawal for those who have problems with benzos.
And I can assure you, my pdoc is both current and highly ethical. He's very alert to signs of benzo misuse and told me upfront that if he sees any signs of abuse ("lost" prescriptions etc.) he will insist on immediate discontinuation. He also has maintained many patients on Klonopin for years and says that he almost never sees abuse of this med, with most patients staying at the same dose indefinitely. As for Xanax -- he's extremely careful with that and only allows limited use. I take much less in a month than many people take in a day.
We discussed discontinuation protocols extensively, and he's very experienced with that. The bottom line is that some people do best with these older drugs. Believe me, I've tried many of the newer ADs etc., with mediocre to disastrous results, and am much more comfortable and healthy with benzos.
We all respond differently, and it's not helpful to demonize one class of meds that can be very beneficial to some people.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2003, at 3:38:04
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 1:45:57
> you don't know what you're talking about.
> you 'clog' my inbox by intent
Please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down. Thanks,
Bob
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