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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Mark Horrell on October 30, 2003, at 18:01:18
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by T_R_D on October 16, 2003, at 11:54:18
I was relieved to find this message board. I started getting what I now believe to be withdrawal symptoms while taking a full dose of Effexor XR and Depakote. My blood pressure zoomed from 110/70 in February to 160/110 in May. A few weeks ago my shrink finally agreed to let me stop taking it, and told me to take a week to taper off. I was dizzy, had vertigo, was hot when it was cold and cold when it was hot, couldn't drive, and am gasping for air sometimes. It has been two weeks of hell and I am about 70% better, but still cannot work a full day. Fortunately for me, I have a lot of sick days coming.
I didn't know what my problem was, and my primary care physician insisted I have a CT scan to rule out anything serious, such as a stroke. The CT came back OK, but it shows you just how severe these symptoms can be.
Funny, but I had taken Effexor about 7 years ago under another shrink and don't remember any withdrawal symptoms. However, I followed that with Paxil which, when that quit working for me, I quit cold-turkey (didn't know any better) and ended up with a severe headache, followed by a speach problem for well over a year. I think I had a mini-stroke. My current shrink now wants me to go back on Paxil - No Way!
I am glad I found this forum. I was really concerned that I had some serious, permanent brain damage. Now I am hopeful that there may be a light at the end of the tunnel. By the way, how much longer is this going to last?
Mark
Posted by KimberlyDi on October 31, 2003, at 11:00:57
In reply to Effexor withdrawal - I found out the hard way, posted by Mark Horrell on October 30, 2003, at 18:01:18
I'm glad you mentioned the "gasping for air" remark because that happened to me last night. While walking to my vehicle in the work parking lot, all of a sudden my throat closed up. Trying to breath was this pathetic squeeekkk and I was close to a full-blown panic attack. I gave myself options, 2 more attempts, then I was going to stumble back to the front office and collapse on the floor and hope someone rescued me. I concentrated on relaxing and my airpassages started opening up. I don't have asthma but I am going through Effexor withdrawal. From 300 to 225mg daily, this weekend I lower from 225 to 150. Give myself 2 weekend days to get over the worst before work starts again on Monday. I'm not looking forward to it.
I also took Effexor before, never went higher than 75mg, and also had no problem quitting.
Naseas, vomiting, hot and cold sweats, dizziness... this sucks
Good Luck
KDi in Texas> I was relieved to find this message board. I started getting what I now believe to be withdrawal symptoms while taking a full dose of Effexor XR and Depakote. My blood pressure zoomed from 110/70 in February to 160/110 in May. A few weeks ago my shrink finally agreed to let me stop taking it, and told me to take a week to taper off. I was dizzy, had vertigo, was hot when it was cold and cold when it was hot, couldn't drive, and am gasping for air sometimes. It has been two weeks of hell and I am about 70% better, but still cannot work a full day. Fortunately for me, I have a lot of sick days coming.
>
> I didn't know what my problem was, and my primary care physician insisted I have a CT scan to rule out anything serious, such as a stroke. The CT came back OK, but it shows you just how severe these symptoms can be.
>
> Funny, but I had taken Effexor about 7 years ago under another shrink and don't remember any withdrawal symptoms. However, I followed that with Paxil which, when that quit working for me, I quit cold-turkey (didn't know any better) and ended up with a severe headache, followed by a speach problem for well over a year. I think I had a mini-stroke. My current shrink now wants me to go back on Paxil - No Way!
>
> I am glad I found this forum. I was really concerned that I had some serious, permanent brain damage. Now I am hopeful that there may be a light at the end of the tunnel. By the way, how much longer is this going to last?
>
> Mark
Posted by soshie on October 31, 2003, at 14:41:33
In reply to Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by Becky on October 2, 1999, at 22:03:30
Hi,
I was on 300 mg. of Effexor XR which was prescribed for panic attacks. I really wish that the dr. (who spent ~10 minutes with me before getting me on effexor) had told me of the side effects for withdrawl.
The meds did nothing for me, besides making me feel detached most of the time. I decided to come off of the meds - my dr. was on medical leave so I was on my own. Here is what I did
I decreased by 37.5 mg. per week until I got to 37.5. From there I opened my capsule and tapped out a little more each day. When I was coming off completely, I took two vacation days so that I could not have to leave the house. I went through the following:
Brain Shivers - these were awful, just awful. Thanks to the other posts on this board, I knew that they were normal - otherwise I would have thought I was dying!
Short fuse - I had a VERY short fuse. Thanks to my wife for helping me out!
I took Benadryl to help with the brain shivers - don't know why it helps, but it really did.
The Brain shivers were VERY bad for the first 3 days and then got better and better, with symptoms gone today - 3 weeks after going off the meds.
Please know that you can do this. The medicine is awful. I hope that it helps some of you, but when you come off, make sure that you have both time and support.
Good luck. If you have any questions, let me know.
Posted by Sanjay Singhal on November 1, 2003, at 4:03:42
In reply to Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by soshie on October 31, 2003, at 14:41:33
I first came off effexor 2 years ago. It took me 3 months of tapering, with recurring nausea and headaches. It was bad enough that I swore I'd never take the damn medication again. But a year later I went through 4 months of depression hell and started effexor again, swearing this time I'd take it forever since I didn't want to go through withdrawal ever again. Silly me...
After 6 months of relative normalcy, all of a sudden one day the effexor stopped working. This may mean I have bi-polar disorder. I'm not sure. But it's pretty apparent that the doctors, therapists, and psychiatrists who treat me haven't a clue either. All the people out there who wish that their physicians had warned them about effexor withdrawal -- THEY DON'T KNOW. That's why they didn't warn you. My MD told me that the worst symptoms would be over after 3-4 days. Yeah, right.
I'm one week into quitting my 150 mg Effexor XR cold turkey. I shut myself up at my parents house and told all my friends I was going away for a while. And then it still proceeded to be worse than I could have imagined.
1. Nightmares, vivid dreams, what have you. Pretty darn interesting for the first 3 nights. Then it got so I couldn't sleep. Which is worse.
2. Vertigo, nausea, "phasing". Has gradually declined, and now is only sporadic.
3. Bad indigestion. Was vomiting every night the first few nights, now its just acid reflux.
4. The "fever". I keep complaining that I have a fever, but Tylenol doesn't help, and I've finally accepted that I have only fever symptoms. Weak all over, hot/cold reversals, etc. Getting better after day 6.
5. Mild itching all over. Not as bad as others have reported.
6. A strange case of salivating continuously at night. I'm addicted to Altoids sours (tangerine). May be the culprit, but I refuse to stop eating them... one of the few things that can take my mind off the withdrawal symptoms.
7. Extreme sensitivity to light, noise, and emotion. Can't read more than a paragraph of anything without starting to cry (including this message board). This has stayed constant all week. Will be interesting if its permanent...
8. Can't sleep. Yes, I know I already mentioned this, but it's 4:49am in my part of the world, and guess what? I can't sleep. Meaning, I sleep for an hour or two or three, and then I'm awake for 20 hours.
My best guess is that it takes 10 days to go from initial cessation to most major symptoms being gone. And 2 weeks to feel 'normal'.
Good luck all.
Sanjay
Posted by foodie on November 1, 2003, at 22:56:25
In reply to My experience with quitting cold turkey (150 mg), posted by Sanjay Singhal on November 1, 2003, at 4:03:42
I have been taking 225 mg of effexor xr for over a year. I want to get off the medicine in hopes it will allow me to stop taking my blood pressure medicine (have NEVER had high BP). My doctor said to just drop back to two a day for awhile and see how I did. It never occurred to me that I may be having symptoms until I read this site. Itchy skin, severe insomnia, irritable (not common for me) weepy, and venom that can come out of nowhere (but only for my husband,) enhanced sensitivity. I only struggle with clinical depression but have reached a point that I just want to do this without meds if possible and take my life back. So, dear readers - quite gradually or cold turkey.
Posted by foodie on November 1, 2003, at 23:25:24
In reply to Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by soshie on October 31, 2003, at 14:41:33
what are brain shivers. i do get cobwebby in my head but do not understand the term brain shivers. it sounds a bit scary. i am the caretaker for my 80 yo alzeimhers mom-in-law and cannot have a jiggery brain or be mean. thanks.
Posted by soshie on November 2, 2003, at 8:50:15
In reply to Re: My experience with quitting cold turkey (150 mg) » Sanjay Singhal, posted by foodie on November 1, 2003, at 22:56:25
Quit gradually!!!
> I have been taking 225 mg of effexor xr for over a year. I want to get off the medicine in hopes it will allow me to stop taking my blood pressure medicine (have NEVER had high BP). My doctor said to just drop back to two a day for awhile and see how I did. It never occurred to me that I may be having symptoms until I read this site. Itchy skin, severe insomnia, irritable (not common for me) weepy, and venom that can come out of nowhere (but only for my husband,) enhanced sensitivity. I only struggle with clinical depression but have reached a point that I just want to do this without meds if possible and take my life back. So, dear readers - quite gradually or cold turkey.
Posted by soshie on November 2, 2003, at 8:54:01
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by foodie on November 1, 2003, at 23:25:24
Here is a series of articles on Brain Shivers that taught me a lot....
http://depression.about.com/cs/venlafaxine/a/brainshivers.htm
> what are brain shivers. i do get cobwebby in my head but do not understand the term brain shivers. it sounds a bit scary. i am the caretaker for my 80 yo alzeimhers mom-in-law and cannot have a jiggery brain or be mean. thanks.
Posted by Dr...Not! on November 5, 2003, at 16:19:07
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by soshie on November 2, 2003, at 8:54:01
I thank God for all you wonderful people! I've been gradually reducing my Effexor XR for the past few months, and had 37.5 left. I was (and am) tired of all the withdrawal symptoms, the most persistent of which has been heart arrythmia (PVCs, or Pre-Ventricular Contractions), either "lite" (palpitations) or "hamster dance" (yup, the little feller's in there and havin' himself a GOOD time). Almost forgot, what I call "the sweats." Absolutely soaking, and usually in the middle of the night. The first time it happened, I thought I had wet the bed, because my cotton underpants were so totally soaked!
Glad to hear about "brain shivers." Not that I'm glad they happen, but I'm glad I heard of them before I had them.
Anyhow, took my last 37.5 on Sunday; Monday OK; Monday night, the sweats, unpleasant kalaidescope dreams and a VERY strange experience of (please excuse me if this sounds vulgar) involuntary orgasms (no, they were not "fun" - I'm a 53-year-old widow, they woke me up, they wouldn't stop, they became painful, and I'm scared they'll happen again); Tuesday, OK; Tuesday night, sweats, dreams; today, my sight is as if I'm at one end of a tunnel, I can't think, I break into sobbing every few hours, and I'm afraid to go to sleep tonight.
Forgot to mention the constant ringing in my ears and the fact that my eyes keep going in and out of focus. This has been going on for a month.
My faith in God is my lifeline. He has, after all, given me YOU! When you post your symptoms, you remind me that I am going through withdrawal of a physical addiction to drugs, and I am not alone. I focus my mind and heart on that, and put my trust in God. In a way, I am thankful that I have experienced these things, as I feel greater compassion for those who suffer from their own addictions, whether to nicotine, alcohol or recreational drugs. I am better able to pray for the wellbeing of others, having been so far from well myself.
Anyhoo, I'm just back from a quick Dunkin'-donuts-and-library-books run (accompanied by one bout of sobbing in the car) and am ready to hunker down at home for the next couple of days. I'll keep you posted (if my memory works so that I remember you're here). (If I didn't get the automatic notices of follow-ups, I would forget you are available for me in my misery!)
ta ta for now
Posted by Dr...Not! on November 7, 2003, at 20:46:31
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by Dr...Not! on November 5, 2003, at 16:19:07
Well, that went well (NOT)! I'm back on Effexor XR after 4 days off! The withdrawal was too awful, so we're going to keep me at 75 mg for a month, then cut down by 15mg for a month, and then another 15, and then 7 and 7.
As it was, Sunday am (5 days ago) was supposed to be my last dose, but by Fri I couldn't stand the nausea, crying, nightmares and sweating any more.
Posted by Jug on November 7, 2003, at 21:43:14
In reply to Re: They're AWFUL!!!!, posted by geo on September 18, 2003, at 15:08:59
> Hi, I'm a little late to this thread.. I just quit a 375mg a day Effexor regimen cold turkey. That was four days ago and I've been pretty dizzy and having weird dreams, but not too bad overall.
>
> I was told by a pharmacist that it takes about 5 days for it to get completely out of your system. Does this mean the withdrawal effects will stop after 5 days or could they linger for weeks? Has anybody else had a similar experience with quitting a fairly high dose cold turkey?
It was the worst drug I have ever experienced withdrawing from. It took me weeks of decreasing to finally get off of it. I thought that I would go crazy getting off of it. I had to break the final doses into pinhead sized pieces. The electic shock feelings and shakes, etc. continued for about a month. I wish you luck.
Jug
Posted by Jug on November 7, 2003, at 21:49:55
In reply to Re: They're AWFUL!!!!, posted by karen t bag on October 13, 2003, at 4:20:04
> im gradually tapering off effexor - gone from 75mg to 37.5 - half a tablet twice a day - side effects are already hitting one week on - angry or tearful - screaming at the kids over nothing - raedy to cry at the drop of a hat - and such vivid dreams - is there anyone out there i can chat to??? im dreading cutting it out completley
>
> thanksCome off very gradually. It has been a few years now since I was on Effexor and I still remember how hard it was to get off of it. I had the help of clonazepam for my nerves and then reduce the doses slowly down to pin sized pieces. This drug should be removed from the market. Good Luck.
Jug
Posted by specialme503 on November 7, 2003, at 22:37:33
In reply to Re: They're AWFUL!!!!, posted by ladylight57 on April 11, 2003, at 16:16:41
I'm 18 and my doctor and I decided to start taking Effexor a little over a year ago. It was a really hard adjustment for like two weeks and it worked like a charm. I moved away from home to go to college and the Effexor is really messing up my system... If I miss taking (or ever a couple hours later that normal) a pill my whole body goes crazy. I can't make it to classes because I'm puking in my dorm and I nearly pass out at work if I am able to stay awake at all. So I really want to get off, but I know my body won't let me do that easily and I am all alone up here. I don't know what I should do. I need some advice.
Posted by karen t bag on November 8, 2003, at 8:04:50
In reply to Re: They're AWFUL!!!! » geo, posted by Jug on November 7, 2003, at 21:43:14
hi,
i stopped taking any effexor last monday - five days ago and i cant sleep its driving me crazy if i get four hours a night im lucky - its getting so bad today im frightened to drive in case i crash the car - ive gone from sleeping lots to not at all - did anyone else have this?
Posted by karen t bag on November 8, 2003, at 8:06:37
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - crashed and burned, posted by Dr...Not! on November 7, 2003, at 20:46:31
> Well, that went well (NOT)! I'm back on Effexor XR after 4 days off! The withdrawal was too awful, so we're going to keep me at 75 mg for a month, then cut down by 15mg for a month, and then another 15, and then 7 and 7.
>
> As it was, Sunday am (5 days ago) was supposed to be my last dose, but by Fri I couldn't stand the nausea, crying, nightmares and sweating any more.dont worry you did your best - i cant beleive doctors put us on this in the first place - im sure it should be banned - but keep going - we are all out here for you
xxx
Posted by Clayton on November 8, 2003, at 15:41:21
In reply to I don't know what to do, posted by specialme503 on November 7, 2003, at 22:37:33
Here's a wild guess and that's all it is because I'm no pro. Remaron enhances both Seratonin and Norepinephine levels but does so by increasing production, not blocking reuptake like Effexor.
IF (ask your doc?) these terrible withdrawl synptoms I've been reading about in this thread are due to decreased levels of neurotransmitters, Remaron might help. Remaron, itself, is not too hard to discontinue - NOTHING like Effexor - and you can taper it down as fast as your withdrawl symptoms from Effexor abate. Remaron starts really working in about 3 days (my experience). It doesn't have sexual side effects.
Ofcourse, this might be way of the mark. If the withdrawl symptoms are due to Effexor's "dirty" side effects or cesation of it's physical action on the receptors, then Remaron may be USELESS for you.
Longer term, Stratera with Remaron may be a good option for you. You will have synergistic support for norepinephrine levels (increased production in combination with enhanced retention of what's there). The Remaron will also support your seratonin levels, replacing Effexor in this role.
I am currently taking Paxil and Remaron in combination. The pair have really saved my life!!! Paxil, alone, was only about 20% effect. I have borderline AD, mood depression, SAD (the worst!) and insomnia that just will not relent. All these symptoms improved by at leasr 90% since I started Remaron. And not one single SAD attack in the five months I've been on it! I formerly used Xanax for Socoal Anxiety and it's a great drug for panic attacks, but addictive and I WAS addicted and abusing it. I am now of it completely. I feel no need for it and now my cognitive abilities and memory are improved because the benzo is out of my body.
Good luck! I hope those withdrawl symptoms start to ease very soon!
Posted by Camille Dumont on November 8, 2003, at 19:48:05
In reply to Wild Guess : I don't know what to do » specialme503, posted by Clayton on November 8, 2003, at 15:41:21
You have no idea how much it scares me to read all the withdrawal stories about Effexor. I've been on it for about a year now and I dread the day I'll have to go off it.
I remember when I was only on 75mg and I went cold turkey for 2 days and it was pure hell. Now I'm no 225 and I'm so very very afraid.
I wonder wether its better to tamper it off and get less brutal side effects but over a long period of time or to take two weeks off, lock oneself in one's room, flush the pills and wait it out.
Has anybody ever tried going cold turkey and succeded?
Posted by Dr...Not! on November 8, 2003, at 20:30:26
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - crashed and burned, posted by karen t bag on November 8, 2003, at 8:06:37
I may have just posted part of something. Sorry.
I cut a finger today and have a big bandaid on it, which just caused a "finger spasm" or something - I hit <Enter> 2 or 3 times.
[Finger spasms, or accidental cuts on finger, are not side effects or withdrawal symptoms usually associated with Effexor XR, so don't worry about THOSE]
Posted by Dr...Not! on November 8, 2003, at 21:04:05
In reply to Breaking Off . . . (are we rolling, Bob?), posted by Dr...Not! on November 8, 2003, at 20:30:26
Although it is almost Thanksgiving,
COLD TURKEY is NOT AN OPTION
for Effexor withdrawal.Many, many posts have listed problems people had when trying to drop Effexor using the "cold turkey" method.
GRADUAL WITHDRAWL SEEMS THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT!!!!
Find a doctor who will work with you on this. Cut back on your dosage in small increments (Effexor XR capsules are issued in sizes of 37.5, 75 and 150 mg, so I reduced dosages by 37.5 at a time). I started at 300mg/day. After each reduction in dosage of 37.5mg, I stayed at the new dosage for a full month.
However, towards the end (and while my doctor was away on vacation) I turned into a smarty-pants and wanted OFF ASAP, so (contrary to doctor's instructions, of course) I dropped to 112.5mg, to 75mg, to 37.5mg, to zero with only a week between . . . and now am sadder and wiser and back on 37.5mg (and possibly more) because my body couldn't handle it.
It is true that SOME people do not experience withdrawal symptoms.
However, MOST people do !!!
A N D . . .
the longer you have been on Effexor and the higher your dosage during that time, the more severe your withdrawal symptoms will be.I just read (in another area of Psycho-Babble) that people take Benadryl to lessen Effexor's side effects or withdrawal symptoms. The post did not say what symptoms were being addressed, but I'm going out tomorrow to get some Benedryl!
Posted by karen t bag on November 10, 2003, at 10:58:24
In reply to Ever tried cold turkey?, posted by Camille Dumont on November 8, 2003, at 19:48:05
> You have no idea how much it scares me to read all the withdrawal stories about Effexor. I've been on it for about a year now and I dread the day I'll have to go off it.
>
> I remember when I was only on 75mg and I went cold turkey for 2 days and it was pure hell. Now I'm no 225 and I'm so very very afraid.
>
> I wonder wether its better to tamper it off and get less brutal side effects but over a long period of time or to take two weeks off, lock oneself in one's room, flush the pills and wait it out.
>
> Has anybody ever tried going cold turkey and succeded?Don't do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been gradually tapering off effexor for weeks - took my last 37.5mg dose last monday - seven days ago - side effects have been at their worst today - feel so dizzy etc - i would gradually taper off over months if necessary with your doctors helptake care
karen
Posted by Camille Dumont on November 10, 2003, at 13:01:08
In reply to Re: Ever tried cold turkey?, posted by karen t bag on November 10, 2003, at 10:58:24
> > You have no idea how much it scares me to read all the withdrawal stories about Effexor. I've been on it for about a year now and I dread the day I'll have to go off it.
> >
> > I remember when I was only on 75mg and I went cold turkey for 2 days and it was pure hell. Now I'm no 225 and I'm so very very afraid.
> >
> > I wonder wether its better to tamper it off and get less brutal side effects but over a long period of time or to take two weeks off, lock oneself in one's room, flush the pills and wait it out.
> >
> > Has anybody ever tried going cold turkey and succeded?
>
> Don't do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> I've been gradually tapering off effexor for weeks - took my last 37.5mg dose last monday - seven days ago - side effects have been at their worst today - feel so dizzy etc - i would gradually taper off over months if necessary with your doctors help
>
> take care
> karenThe thing is, the time I went without it for 2 days was accidental because I forgot my pills ... lets just say that now I don't forget anymore :P
I'm thinking about doing it cold turkey when the time comes because I know myself. I'm not patient ... I'll never be able to endure months of side effects ... and I do have to work every day.
I think that as long as going cold turkey poses no super major health dangers I'd rather feel like I'm dying for say two weeks or so rather than feel sick for months.
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 10, 2003, at 13:54:46
In reply to Wild Guess : I don't know what to do » specialme503, posted by Clayton on November 8, 2003, at 15:41:21
I don't know if Imipramine is similar to Remeron but the Imip seems to be helping me withdrawal from Effexor.
PDoc and I were deciding between Remeron and Imipramine because both have sedating side effects, and Imip won because of the notorious weight gain with Remeron.
KDi in TX
Posted by Dr...Not! on November 10, 2003, at 17:31:44
In reply to Re: Ever tried cold turkey?, posted by Camille Dumont on November 10, 2003, at 13:01:08
Please believe me, cold turkey is NOT a smart choice. One of the physical symptoms I'm having during my slooooow withdrawal is an irregular heartbeat. If I had suddenly stopped taking the Effexor XR (i.e., quit "cold turkey"), my heart might have suddenly stopped, too!
Yes, you want off NOW. So do I. There are several very good reasons why we should not stop our medication NOW.
1 - "Cold turkey" can result in severe and possibly serious withdrawal symptoms.
2 - The end of the year (and "the Holidays") are here with all the emotional baggage we've saved up through the years. This is not the time to make changes in whatever keeps our lives in balance.3 - All that end-of-year stuff, including indulgent foods at odd hours of the day and night and celebrations and preparations that last until the wee hours of the morning, is going to upset your body's equilibrium. Again, now is not a good time to expect our body to absorb another weird stress, such as a withdrawal of chemical support.
I pray that you will reconsider your decision to withdraw "cold turkey."
Posted by jbc on November 11, 2003, at 2:20:51
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by Dr...Not! on November 5, 2003, at 16:19:07
I am so thankful that I got to see your message tonight. I am going through these same awful withdrawls that everyone else here is.
Like you, my faith in God & my wonderful job & family is all that's holding me together right now. I was only on Effexor XR for 9 mos & only went up to 75 mg on my dosage. I have now been off it for one week.
All I want to do is sit & cry. I can't sleep, I'm achy like I have the flu & I can't concentrate on anything. I actually quit Zoloft cold turkey about 8 years ago & experienced NOTHING like this.
Please know that if you need a sister in Christ to walk through this awful experience with, I am here & ready to listen. All I ask is that you listen to me as well!
Posted by karen t bag on November 11, 2003, at 6:20:44
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by jbc on November 11, 2003, at 2:20:51
dear jbc,
hang on in there - im on day eight now and feeling a little brighter - only thing is i am having uncontrollable dizziness - nearly fell over in town yesterday - think people thought i was drunk! if only!!!!!
it has to get better
karen
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