![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4789 to 4813 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 11:14:07
In reply to Re: Zinya, posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 10:35:09
hi again Willie,
Your words made me think of one of my 'mantras' of sorts -- and what a wonderful "sign" it was to me to discover that my bereavement counselor had the same mantra, and she now helps me hear it in myself too - and it's one of her golden rules for the bereavement groups that meet twice a month here: Namely, to view the word "should" as a giant red flag.
All the "shoulds" in our lives that we grew up with and keep perpetuating in ourselves ... Actually one of the college-era friends in town here who i have just had to stop seeing ... If you looked up the word "should" in the dictionary, her picture would be there as an illustration!! She's a walking "should"-er, and as much as she resents the same thing in her own sister, she does it too (both telling herself things she should do, which she then resents having done afterwards, as well as telling me and everyone else what i or they should do, notably -- alas -- her very depressed adult daughter) and it triggers the voice in me I'm already trying to UNdo. She's constantly -- well, when i was still talking with her regularly - we just e-mail for now and when she asks how i am, I've learned to ignore the question and answer a different question of hers instead, like about news or movies or something ... cuz if i even open the door to giving a remotely honest answer as to how i am, she's saying i should do this and i should do that ...
(Maybe, to clarify, i should :)) borrow a phrase that John Bradshaw uses to differentiate two types of 'shame' as well -- the kind of 'should' i'm talking about is the "toxic should" (like what he calls 'toxic shame' -- There's a healthy and necessary kind of should (or shame) which serves an important function of telling us we should, for example, tell the truth, not cheat, not kill or steal, etc. etc. ... and should follow the golden rule etc. But this is a different kind of 'should' that creeps in under the guise of being just as vital as these legitimate 'shoulds' but they are toxic cuz they really are about someone else's 'agenda' or 'formula' for us -- or society's at large. And then 'shame' us for not living up to these expectations and judgments which really are very arbitrary. And daily life is flooded with them.)
"Should" is like a laser highway into our inner anxiety straight from that octopus of a thing called Society. (sorry bout the multi-mixed metaphor) And it is fairly lethal. "Should" is ultimately suffocating. It takes the oxygen out of our own sense of who we are, what even our own instincts are - it shouts down listening to our own bodies for "advice" on what we are in the mood for. And sets us up for then resentment and/or self-doubt, frustration, and even depression. Over the years (about ten years or so of being attuned to the destructive power and symbolism of this word) I've developed a kind of radar to hear the word for what it is, which is the first step in then raising one's armor to ward it off and not start feeling guilty or inadequate or failed or whatever...
anyway, my added 2c for the moment :) Sorry if it started to sound like a soapbox or diatribe ! :)) I know i sometimes get off on a long monologue here ... I hope everyone realizes i'm not trying to preach, just sharing a view which i'd love to hear other thoughts about, including contrary views...
wishing you minimal stress today!
hugs,
zinya
Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 11:47:26
In reply to Re: No imposters here » CherC68, posted by catachrest on July 24, 2003, at 8:51:17
Dear Susan,
No problem with giving your opinion. I do understand what you mean about taking someone else's prescription, however most doctors in my area do not prescribe Xanax. I have tried the Zoloft and the Effexor and the SE's were way too horrible for me and I so wish that I was able to take them.
I still have 20 left, meaning I've taken 10 .25 mgs in the last few weeks. I haven't taken a Xanax in a few days. I only take them when the panic attacks are at their worse and until I get into see a PDoc/Therapist it is my own safety net it seems.
I am horrible about taking medications of any kind (not that I cannot swallow them) It's just I hate the fact that I cannot make myself better without needing to rely on something to get me through the day or life.
Susy gave me an article regarding Xanax and when I do find a PDoc I will come armed with that information and hopefully the doctor will see that I'm not a Xanax junky its just the one thing that seems to help when I'm at the end of my rope.
I too like everyone else on here have no self confidence and go through life thinking I'm not good enough to get help or not worth it and most of the time am to afraid to ask for what I want.
I had tried to talk to my internist regarding giving me a prescription for xanax and he looked at me like hmmm maybe we have a junky on our hands - its probably my imagination, but most of the time I always think that everyone that looks at me or talks to me sees something worthless.
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject and I myself would probably tell another the same thing. But, I'm being careful and only using the Xanax during a panic attack and not as a preventative.
Thanks again for your concern.
Hugs,
Cher
Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:10:09
In reply to Re: personal thoughts, Cher and » zinya, posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 10:44:21
Yikes, Thank you all so much. I'm doing fine right now, the mess is cleaned up, my husband and son are home, my basement stinks, but no biggie. Someone is coming today to fix the pump on the pool.
You guys are all so wonderful and yeah it would be so cool if we had our own Babble community within driving distance!
I'm doing fine right now because I have to be.
My mother informed me yesterday that my father is going in for a biopsy. She wanted to wait until the mess at my house was taken care of before she let me know. His numbers came back high and he has a hard lump (prostate).
I cried for about a minute.
I had a hysterical maniacal laughter for about 1-1/2 hours and then cried for hours when I flooded and my pump on the new pool broke and I broke a glass, but cried for about one minute because there is a chance my father might have prostate cancer.
I love my father so much, so why am I becoming cold again? My father came over yesterday and fixed the sump pump. I watched him in awe and with so much love. I asked him why nobody told me - he said he wanted to wait and see what's going on. My father didn't look me in the eye the entire time at my house. I asked if he was okay - he said yes, I just hope its not Cancer. I said me too. He left and I cried for about a minute and thought I was going to absolutely die if I thought about it another second. Didn't take a Xanax.
Not going to take a xanax either. Am I really this cold or am I avoiding thinking about it. I honestly think I am freak, but I'm okay and I'm doing fine.
Hugs,
Cher
Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:31:13
In reply to Re: personal thoughts » CherC68, posted by zinya on July 23, 2003, at 17:55:30
Dearest Zinya,
I would never in a million years tell you to mind your own business. You have been one of my greatest sources of help during this time and I honestly have a great deal of affection and respect for you. You make me want to be better.
You may be right about the depression part of my problem - the daily stressors are becoming more and more hard for me to bear.
I do have a chemical imbalance however. I have an abnormal amount of adrenalin in my body. The fight or flight syndrome or whatever. Have you ever been so mad or in a fist fight with someone and get hit and cannot feel the pain? I have been in several fist fights growing up and unfortunately later in life too. When you are in a total fight with someone - the pain usually doesn't register when you get hit -- it sure comes later, but at the time of the fight - the pressure and the adrenalin kick in. The strength I have is extremely scary sometimes. I have actually beat up men that were over 6 feet tall - and I'm 5'3". I have that feeling over breaking a glass, spilling milk, or looking at myself in the mirror or just waking up sometimes.
I had panic attacks since I was 4 years old. I was in bed and Johnny Carson was on and it was Christmas. My parents were in the living room - and as I layed there - everything got louder - extremely loud and faster - my thoughts - at the time I thought I could feel my blood going through my veins. I tried to explain to my parents that it felt like there was a man inside my body chasing me. That was my explanation. I still remember it like yesterday.
I was diagnosed several years ago through a free program with Borderline Personality Disturbance and possible Manic Depression. I see the Borderline -- inside me I know I'm crazy, not depressed so much as nuts. Being nuts makes me depressed, knowing that I've lived 40 years mostly unhappy makes me depressed. Sometimes I am depressed for no obvious reason, which is the reason I went to the doctor in the first place, but since I had nothing really to be depressed about I mostly talked about my panic attacks. I sometimes have 3-4 a day. It's like a big 900 pound man sitting on my chest. I have bruises on my chest sometimes from where I clench my fist and rub.
I know I am obsessive compulsive about cleaning my house and brushing my teeth - I brush between 4 - 10 times a day, I think being obsessive keeps me going when truly all I want to do is sleep and never wake up. Which again is crazy.
I think the borderline is what keeps me from sticking with anything jobs, I like to change them, men - lol we'll discuss that another time - but I have Craig now and forever - and the fact I don't go to doctors, I don't like medicine of any kind and am even rationing the Xanax like its gold for when the panic attack is at its worse. Funny though, even when I cannot breath and my chest hurts so bad, I won't take a Xanax knowing that it will help me because maybe I deserve the pain? Don't know and at this time, not really caring too much, because I am sort of sick and tired of analyzing myself. I'm screwed up period, because I think I'm screwed up. This is life, its not a bad life I have - just bad things happen and I'm not a strong enough person to deal.
There are people that are abused, there are people that have "Real" problems, homeless, beaten, poor, really unhealthy and I don't have real problems except that I can't deal with things well. It's my defect.
I think that if I would stop thinking that I am depressed it will go away, if I stop thinking I have pain in my hands and my feet that would go away, if I stop thinking I had chest pains they would go away, and my brain is messed up a bit so I can't stop thinking about it.
So - for all you out there - am I Borderline or what? LOL! See I can laugh and cry in seconds - maybe I am manic - who knows.
Zinya, your thoughts are always welcome and I know you know that so that makes me feel better. I wouldn't want you thinking that what you say is not wanted by me or heard.
Love,
Cherp.s. there are so manay posts on here, my head is rattling to remember things I want to say - very fuzzy head thoughts today.
Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 13:07:51
In reply to Re: personal thoughts » zinya, posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:31:13
Actually pulled out the stuff I received a few years ago regarding BPD the following is an excerpt from one of the pamphlets...
Borderline personality disorder (BPD) individual's almost always appear to be in a state of crisis. Mood swings are common. These individuals can be argumentative at one moment and depressed at the next and then complain of having no feeling at all, at another time/
Wow - that hurts - its me.Hugs,
Cher
Posted by Susy on July 24, 2003, at 13:46:54
In reply to Re: personal thoughts » zinya, posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:31:13
Good morning my new cyber friends, Zinya, Mercedes, Kid-O, Kim, Theo, Willie, and specially dear Cher:
This morning when I came back to drop off my son at his work, I found out myself thinking about all of you guys! That is very good, most of the times I came back thinking about my fears and frustrations and praying to feel better this day.
I came thinking about a lot of things I want to share with you, talking about imposters, at list in the babble I don't feel an imposter, I can talk about everything I feel and think, and I know that you guys understand me perfectly. Most of the times even with my family I am trying not to make mistakes, specially in the city where I live it looks to me like everybody is always watching just waiting to see if they detect a mistake. So, thanks a lot for giving me this freedom I feel whenever I write to you girls =).
It is good that we have shared all our problems related with our anxiety, depression and panic attacks, I know, is not easy to deal with them everyday, specially for me and Cher since we can't take anti depressants as the rest of you are. So I feel that some of you are doing great, some of you are still going to work and taking your medicines, that sounds too good for me, I don't have health insurance,I don'have a pdoc,I can't work right now, either take AD's =(.
Anyways, I was thinking that we can also give our ideas of how to deal with our symptoms to try to feel better. As far as my own experiences, what I have read, and heard, (and that doesn't mean that I practice all of them, or always feel in the mood to make them)I have find that there are some good ways,
1.- Music, in any way,listening, dancing, to dance helps a lot to liberate the tension in the body and to sing helps a lot to take all the tension acumulated in the chest, so why not sing? Even if we don't do it very well.
2.- Walk, I can't run, because I start feeling short of breath of with my heart pounding very fast, but walk, it does really good, walking fast, better. Also, very good, swimm, slowly of course.
3.-Eat well. Sleep well.
4.-And the most important thing of all, I am trying to practice this every day, change our thoughts, try to control our own minds, meaning, whenever I am feeling a panic attack instead of thinking I am going to die, or I am about to faint, I think repeatdly, this is going to past, it wont last long. I'll be ok. soon.
And that goes for everything else, sometimes I do want to stay here and lay in the couch, reading, sleeping, doing anything, and suddenly one of my kids come asking me to do something or take him/her somewhere, instead of burst yelling to them that I need to rest, I try to put a smile in my face and tell myself, why not? I can make it, maybe it would be better to do something different. Obviously, this doesn't mean that is it easy, of course not, but it is good at least to try.
If you guys have another good ideas, please let me know, I will fight until the end, one day I have to stop taking Xanex, and I have to learn how to control this damn anxiety I always have so I can go back to work, and little by little find inside me the courage I used to have before.
By the way, I am not blonde anymore. I colored my hair brown yesterday, just to see a new face in the mirror.
Love, Susy
Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 14:23:35
In reply to Re: personal thoughts, posted by Susy on July 24, 2003, at 13:46:54
Susy,
You are truly the sweet one. I think your post is quite uplifting. You sound so much more positive - in light of the depression and anxiety, you are fighting it the and your list you devised to help yourself is wonderful.
Music, Dancing, Walking, sleeping and eating and even forcing yourself to go ahead and keep on moving and keep on living is a wonderful idea.
It's hard but, I think you are making a lot of progress from when you first started posting. I guess recognizing the problem is a good step. You seem to have a lot more confidence now.
I have been trying to use swimming as something that is positive but...still waiting for it to get fixed...but I at least know it will be fixed and that is positive too.
One step at a time Susy, that's all we can do and I am so happy to see the positivity in your posting.
I hope to hear more from you soon.
Hugs & Love,
Cher
Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 14:31:50
In reply to Re: Oh you guys.... » KimberlyDi, posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:10:09
Just one comment for now, Cher (!?!? am i *capable* of "just one comment"???? hmm, we'll see):
I hear your last statement here and your concern about not crying more about your Dad as being that voice of "should" that i just wrote about, letting yourself critique or question or punish or shame yourself for in this case *not* reacting the way you think you *should*.
The ways and means of our emotions are not "should-able" i think... I too have had times when i would think i "should" be crying and wasn't ... and then suddenly, 3 weeks later one day, i'd look at the kitchen counter in a funny angle, think of the person in question and collapse on the floor in sobs, totally 'out of left field' it seemed. (Kind of reminds me of the shower scene in The Big Chill when what's-her-name belatedly collapses in sobs over their friend's suicide.)
I do think your 'analysis' is probably right - that part of you is protecting yourself now, not wanting to believe it could be true (which at this point is wise, why be pessimistic?) ... Plus your emotions have already been through the wringer this week and you could be 'sobbed out'. But mostly i think it's helpful, if possible, not to do a number on yourself thinking you 'should' be reacting any differently than you are.
Think of how silly it is the way people misjudge others: Ever hear someone point to a person smiling and say "See? He's happy?" when a smile is often a sign of nervous anxiety that is just the opposite of what it looks. Emotions manifest in every situation for every person uniquely and we (as a society) do ourselves NO favor when we think any one sign of emotion should be 'code' for any one feeling. You can cry when you're happy and smile when you're sad. There's no formula.
(okay, sorry, soapbox over)
:))
sending you huge hugs and feeling between the lines a certain 'solidness' in your 'voice' today that makes me happy to hear, if i'm not mistaken. And having your men back is surely such comfort and part of it...
Keep us informed about your dad. I will keep my fingers crossed. When will he get the biopsy? I've had to have breast biopsies twice - aaargh. No fun. I hope his kind isn't as painful - they probably give him anesthesia right?
hugs and love,
zinya
Posted by catachrest on July 24, 2003, at 14:46:56
In reply to Re: Ways to fight initial drowsiness/sleep problem, posted by countess on July 23, 2003, at 18:24:09
Thanks everyone, for your welcome and advice! I got a great sleep last night. I don't know what did it, because I haven't changed the timing of my dose or taken anything else. But, though I woke up once or twice, I slept deeply and had the weirdest dreams. And today I feel energetic and productive! Yay! First time in soooooooo long for that. I don't think I'll switch the timing of my dose yet; maybe all I need to do is let the fatigue pass and avoid caffeine after 3:00. :D
Susan
> hi-i took my med at night when i started and had the same trouble as you with insomnia and then tiredness during the day. i switched to a.m. and still had insomnia. i am back to taking my med at night to see if it is better and i feel i sleep better when i take it at night but during the day i am very drowsy. i am at 75 xr now. i took 37.5 for two weeks and then 75 for almost 6 weeks. i think i actually prefer taking it at night. i take it for anxiety and feel better this way. i know each person is different. i also agree that you should try the timing while you are at a lower dose. i switched back to nighttime last weekend and my muscles were very tired and weak and i didn't get anything done while waiting to take the p.m dose (i skipped the a.m.) take care and good luck!
>
> Thanks Zinya,
> >
> > I think I will try that. I've been taking it with supper - which is often later in the evening due to my decreased appetite lately - and maybe I would benefit from taking it in the morning, or even at lunch. My doctor didn't recommend a time of day, only that I should eat something with it, which is why I chose suppertime.
> >
> > Susan
> >
> >
> > > hi Susan,
> > >
> > > welcome! I was a newcomer not so long ago myself...
> > >
> > > What time of day are you taking your Effexor? (It's the XR time-release, right?)
> > >
> > > It could be that you might benefit from changing from night to morning or morning to night ... I take mine at night after dinner (initially out of concern for nausea which did me in with other a-d's i've tried) to be on fullest stomach of the day and so far i haven't had trouble sleeping although i do find myself having a third coffee many days even though i usually tried to keep myself to one or two. But otherwise, i've been fine with taking it night.
> > >
> > > However, as you've surely read, others here had to do the opposite and switch to mornings ... If you have enough 37.5s you might try making the switch before you move up to 75 so there's less of an adjustment to your body as you gradually shift time of day.
> > >
> > > ???
> > >
> > > just my 2c,
> > >
> > > zinya
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by theo on July 24, 2003, at 14:57:46
In reply to Re: Cher, Susy, Kdi, Theo, Zinya, Mercedes, posted by willie on July 23, 2003, at 19:02:36
Feeling good, day 2 on 75mg Effexor XR. Much smoother for me than 37.5mg! I guess the up to 75mg stays in my system longer therefore not as many ups and downs.
Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 15:15:47
In reply to Re: personal thoughts » zinya, posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:31:13
and dearest Cher!
well, obviously i had no idea what i was talking about :))!! but i'm so glad you don't mind my gratuitous 20c worth :)
How totally intriguing to me your 4-yr-old memory is. And that you link it so specifically with watching Johnny Carson, and the sense of where your parents were etc. For what you say about therapy/analysis, i imagine you've explored that rather fully already, but i find it so intriguing as to what might have triggered that feeling at the time. Do you have siblings? Were you the oldest child? (I forget if you already mentioned but i sense you have talked about siblings.)
My curious mind reads your post and has a zillion questions come to mind but i don't want to overload or be intrusive. Just an example, curious as to how long the teeth-brushing that you say is OCD has happened? Is it just since you stopped seeing a dentist and therefore had a reason to 'overcompensate' perhaps? Or did you have this habit since "forever"? something you do when you're anxious? or bored? or no correlation? Those kinds of questions -- which you don't have to answer :)) but that's the kind of thing i mean.
Is it the hyper-adrenalin thing that led your md. to suggest Effexor? I'm still confused frankly about how these things work but it's starting to seem like they regulate rather than compensate. (I'm getting this impression from also learning recently that Effexor is used for bipolar as well as depression. As you know, I'm on it hoping that my adrenal system, which is totally depleted and it's like i'm high and dry with none left - after years of mostly having been go-go-go. Now nada. Yet even now i realize that it's more a question of regulation than just compensation, i think. I occasionally have something 'fire me up' (although it's been a while) and then i can find myself being impulsive, but then i just collapse back into nada. It's what i've been hoping this Eff might finally deal with. But it sounds like we're coming at this from mostly opposite ends of the spectrum as regards adrenalin.
As to BPD, i appreciate your explanation - i don't know very much about it. It reminds me most recently of an episode of the Sopranos last fall ... and it introduced info about BPD although surely in a very summary way. Is there a belief that BPD is linked to something specific in our biochemistry the way depression is deemed now to be linked (for many) to serotonin levels?
The business though of telling yourself "maybe you deserve the pain" - is that in itself a BPD thing? or is that a broader inadequacy issue like we've been talking about here the last couple of days?
I hear you when you say "you're sick and tired of analyzing" so please don't feel a need to answer anything i've asked here. I'm letting you know what i thought about (well some of what i thought about :) in reading your post, and that i care about you and am sending you deep-breathing peaceful hugs,
love,
zinya
Posted by mercedes on July 24, 2003, at 16:26:06
In reply to Daph-Effexor - what do u mean by imposter?, posted by KimberlyDi on July 23, 2003, at 17:00:51
hey, KDI in Texas,
I read your post yesterday to Daph and wanted to respond but it was past midnight and I was pretty much brain dead to find the right words or for that matter, any words. Your comment made me feel like reaching out to you right then and there.I hadn't realized that you felt this way about yourself. That someday everybody is going to see how worthless you really are, and not like you anymore? Who is everybody? Do you mean your coworker's, family, or freinds ? What brought this on? Can you pinpoint when you started feeling like this? Did your mom or dad always tell you how you shoud look, feel etc?
I know I'm asking alot of questions, and maybe you have posted on this before, but my memory hasn't been so good lately with the attacks I get. Me personnaly, cannot relate to an eating disorder like anorexia as I have had a weight problem since I was around 8 yrs old. I do remember thinking that my life was not worth living a few times throughout my life, to the point of wanting to end it and I'm glad I didn't.
And, as I've mentioned before, being like a robot for many years (I was going to use the word "feeling" like a robot but at that time I had no, -0-, zip, feelings).
You have been a tremendous support here at this site. Your postings are "worth" something and so are YOU.
Hoping to hear more from you,
mercedes
*********************************
(posted by KDI)
Daph, if you feel like a failure or an imposter, realize that it's your inner negative voice trying to break you down again. I know the "imposter" feeling. I was sent to an "eating disorders" group therapy session. I saw all those pencil thin girls and almost cried, thinking I was a failure at even having an eating disorder. I wasn't overweight, by all means. But my inner voice always tells me that I am, and I have an unhealty envy of those girls who have the total willpower to starve themselves. I personally am glad you are here, regardless of your Effexor dosage.
KDi in TexasP.S. I always feel like I'm barely "faking" it through life. That someday everybody is going to see how worthless I really am, and not like me anymore. It's hard to fight those feelings.
Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 16:42:13
In reply to Re: Oh you guys.... » KimberlyDi, posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 12:10:09
Cher,
I don't think you are cold or avoiding anything. Sure you can laugh hysterically or sob for hours when you are frustrated and overwhelmed at *things* in your life. Dad aint a *thing*. I think something in your mind is taking care of you right now. You don't need to imagine the worst case scenerio and feel that kind of pain on something that might happen. Dad will be proud of you for not losing it. You are going to be OK. My prayers will be with you both.
Take care,
KDi in Texas> Yikes, Thank you all so much. I'm doing fine right now, the mess is cleaned up, my husband and son are home, my basement stinks, but no biggie. Someone is coming today to fix the pump on the pool.
>
> You guys are all so wonderful and yeah it would be so cool if we had our own Babble community within driving distance!
>
> I'm doing fine right now because I have to be.
>
> My mother informed me yesterday that my father is going in for a biopsy. She wanted to wait until the mess at my house was taken care of before she let me know. His numbers came back high and he has a hard lump (prostate).
>
> I cried for about a minute.
>
> I had a hysterical maniacal laughter for about 1-1/2 hours and then cried for hours when I flooded and my pump on the new pool broke and I broke a glass, but cried for about one minute because there is a chance my father might have prostate cancer.
>
> I love my father so much, so why am I becoming cold again? My father came over yesterday and fixed the sump pump. I watched him in awe and with so much love. I asked him why nobody told me - he said he wanted to wait and see what's going on. My father didn't look me in the eye the entire time at my house. I asked if he was okay - he said yes, I just hope its not Cancer. I said me too. He left and I cried for about a minute and thought I was going to absolutely die if I thought about it another second. Didn't take a Xanax.
>
> Not going to take a xanax either. Am I really this cold or am I avoiding thinking about it. I honestly think I am freak, but I'm okay and I'm doing fine.
>
> Hugs,
> Cher
Posted by tray on July 24, 2003, at 16:57:35
In reply to Re: Oh you guys.... » CherC68, posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 14:31:50
Hey everyone I'm new to this forum but not to
the effects of depression. I have been on paxil for 1 year and it did help me at first but them
i got worse. I just started efexor xr 150 mg
6 days ago and today has been a good day. i never knew there was such a dark place and i would be willing to try anything to help. due to a major crisis in my life a little over a year ago I became majorly depressed and lost a lot of weight which has caused my ovaries to fail and the doctors have told me that i am post memapausal at the age of 32. i now have to deal with menapause along with trying to conquer this depression so i can take care of my family. i am obviously in no shape to give advise but I wonder if any of you know Jesus Christ? If I did not have my father in heaven on my side i know i would not be here today. i just want you all to know i will pray for you and if you know Christ i would like to ask you to pray for me. I may not be well yet but i know my day is coming because i have FAITH that it will. Keep your faith too!!Luv,
Tracy
Posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 17:06:20
In reply to Re: KDI, didn't know you felt this way » KimberlyDi, posted by mercedes on July 24, 2003, at 16:26:06
Mercedes
Heck yes I feel this way, why do you think I'm on Effexor? <grin> I've always been painfully shy and insecure. Eating disorder since age 16 (I'm 34 now). I seem to have a weakness for abusive men who confirm how I feel. "Stupid drunk b*tch". Oh yeah, did I mention alcoholic? It runs in my familiy (alcoholism) from both sets of grandparents. I had been so down for the past few years that when Effexor shut up the bad thoughts, I was extremely grateful. The heavy blanket of fear and anxiety that weighed me down every day was lifted. Well, it all started to come back when I ran low on Effexor and had to take half dosages to last until I got a refill. So lately, I've been more in touch with all my fears. Thanks for your kind message. :)
KDi in TexasP.S. Believe it or not, but I am a very intelligent person. I usually do an outstanding job at work and now they expect it as the *norm*. I'm constantly afraid of failure.
Posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 17:12:42
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
Hey buddy....WOW!! It just keeps on coming doesn't it? I hope things are okay with your dad, I'll keep both you and he in my prayers.
I agree that the reason you are shutting down is a way of your body/mind protecting itself. It just can't deal with anything more right now. Don't think yourself as weird or cold. I've shut down before and I know the thoughts running through your mind. My concern is that when you shut yourself off from feeling negative emotion you're also shutting yourself off from positive emotion as well. You can't feel the good if you don't feel the bad.
Please don't fall into a deeper depression..I've see progress in you the past few days. If you need to yell...yell at us (or at least me). Open up to us Cher..don't shut down completely okay?
The beauty of this cyber friendship is that we can be totally honest with each other, tell our darkest secrets and fears without feeling that we are being judged. There is unconditional acceptance here. No matter what you are going through, there will be someone here that has been through something similiar and is ready to listen. How precious a gift is that?
We can become the closest of friends yet walk by each other on the street without recognizing one another. I feel that I can tell you guys things that I could never tell anyone. You guys will know the "real" me.
I'm sure we all have these mental pictures of what one another looks like. Thanks to Susy I'll have to change my image of her to having brown hair now (ha ha).
Willie
Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 17:17:30
In reply to Re: personal thoughts » CherC68, posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 15:15:47
Dear Zinya,
I hope that you can understand this - I just went through and answered the best way I could and its a bit jumbled, like most of my thoughts in my head.
My parents used to always watched Johnny Carson and that night I could hear him on the TV and I layed there in bed when the panic attack happened and could hear the TV in the living room getting louder and louder and the noises getting faster and faster and that being chased feeling was inside me and it was horrible. Yes, even at 4 I remember it like it was yesterday.
We lived in Roseland at the time in an 2 story apartment and my brother Jack was two years old. I'm the oldest. When I was 13 my mother had another baby (my baby or so I thought) Danny.
Until I was 14 I had a split between my two front teeth and I used to suck my thumb to hide it, the split eventually grew together. When I was 12 I had a tonsilectomy because since I was a baby I had tonsilitis a few times a year and my tonsils were rotted. Because of the high fevers I endured for the first 12 years of my life and constant sore throat, I didn't brush my teeth when I was sick and that would usually be at least a week in bed a few times a year.
So, I had a lot of cavities and I hated the dentist so much that I thought if I brushed my teeth several times a day I wouldn't get them. After the tri-geminal neuralgia I had I upped the brushing so I would never have to go to the dentist again, but...I also used brushing my teeth as a form of weight loss, you know - who eats right after brushing their teeth?
As far as the hyper-adrenalin thing, I have no clue - my internist was a new doctor and the only thing I told him was that I was having panic attacks and that I thought I was having a heart attack and my hands were killing me and that I was feeling down because of it. I had the stress test, the EMG of my hands and he prescribed the Zoloft and then a month later the Effexor. He knows nothing about the adrenalin thing or the Borderline Personality.
I was told when I was little that I had a high case of adrenalin. My strength - lifting and my pain tolerance is more than most people and a doctor explained to my mother that my body made more adrenalin than most people. My mother witnessed me get into a fist fight with a grown up woman when I was only 11 when this lady grabbed me and tried to strike me I woooped her butt. My father seen me get into a fight
with a high school kid that was supposedly a brown belt in front of a karate studio once and I kicked his butt too (I was only in 7th grade)!
I'm not proud that I'm "tough" - I've taken some beatings, but....you can only get picked on so much and take so much crap before you fight back. And, where I lived, you had to fight or die trying. I also could lift more weight than most of the guys in my grade and my leg power was extreme. The feeling of adrenalin rushing through my body could come over a dirty look a mean comment to me. I've never gotten angy because things didn't go my way, only if someone was mean to another person and then finally if someone was mean to me.I have to learned to control my temper and try to never show it because if I get too much adrenalin flowing in my body I am afraid of permanently hurting someone.
I was told I had Borderline Personality and I had to go to a group therapy meeting and I showed up in a room with a bunch of people sitting a circle. I didn't know anyone then the shrink came in called my name and dropped three different boxes with medications for me on the table in front of everyone. One was buspar - the other two I cannot remember the name of now - but I was so humiliated - I picked up the meds looked at them then I got up and walked out and told the shrink he was an a**hole and get scre**** and dropped the meds on the ground and never looked back.
I was dating a chiropractor (well to me he was a proctologist) at the time and he made fun of me being "borderline personality" - I never chased guys or threatened them with harm to myself or stalked them - i just didn't trust them and without trust got tired of them and gave them the boot quick. I told him the names of the meds and he told me one was an antipsycotic - and joked some more but I don't remember the name of it now.
The reason I started to go through the pamphlets on it was maybe to see if there was an alternate treatment besides meds. I do know that sexual assault can contribute to BPD, but...am now just starting to really look into what Borderline Personality really is.
Some of the things look a lot like manic depressive to me, so I don't know, and until I start therapy, etc. I won't know.
As far as my father goes, he goes in to the clinic at 11:00 and they will be taking pictures of his prostate and then he will have a biopsy. Seems my mother doesn't really want to get into the details about it - I guess like me - trying not to think about it. He's going to be 65 and works manual labor at a plant and my mother doesn't work. He has been working 6-7 days a week for a few months now and when he was 60 years old he worked 65 weeks straight (7 days a week) without a day off except two weeks vacations. Manual labor doesn't make much money and to survive, he had not much choice but to take any and all overtime especially since he had seniority.
I feel so bad, because he hasn't had much breaks in his life, no vacations except one when we were really little we went to wisconsin, but...he just works, makes money, eats, sleeps and work. He cannot retire yet because when he retires my mother will be left with no health insurance. She's been trying for a year now to get a job, but since she's 58 and hasn't worked since I was 8, nobody will hire her.
I think my unworthy feelings are part borderline and part the fact that many people feel this way. I don't think unworthy feelings has a name or a disease or an imbalance. I honestly think everyone is messed up in their own way and there is no normal person and when I think that way - sometimes it helps me get through the day. I just have to remember that I'm okay, and that this is life and I need to get used to the ups which aren't much and all the downs.
Well hands are clamboring for ice and husband is on his way home from work.
Again, Zinya & everyone thank you for listening (bet you all can't wait till I get a therapist so I can lay this crap on him/her).
Love,
Cher
Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 17:21:40
In reply to Re: Oh you guys...., posted by tray on July 24, 2003, at 16:57:35
Tracy,
Thank you so very much and I will pray for you and all the other posters.
I hope you get out of your dark place and only have sunny days ahead.
Hugs,
Cher
Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 17:40:08
In reply to Re: KDI, didn't know you felt this way » mercedes, posted by KimberlyDi on July 24, 2003, at 17:06:20
Dear Kimberly,
Thanks for sharing with us. You do seem so put together on here, and I hope that you really are starting to feel it deep down.
Do you know what I mean? Sometimes I can be put together and go to work and act like nothing is wrong, and I can be the strong one, and take care of everything, but inside I'm not - inside I'm horrible. Also the fear of failure for me is strong too.
My husband just recently really seen how bad I am getting, but you guys seen it first - before anyone els. He knew I was feeling "blue" - but not to this extent.
I just hope some of the posters here realize that its great to share happy experiences and notes to just say they are doing well and their meds are working. I just wish I had more happy thoughts to share lol!
I do understand though, I was just chit chatting away with a neighbor like nothing was wrong with me - but...the thoughts in the head are so not happy. On the outside I look happy, energetic etc. that if you met me on the street you wouldn't know how miserable I am, but you all here know my insides.
KDi, if you ever have self doubts or just a bad moments, please know that we will be there for you. But, god, its very nice when you post and you are so level, it gives me hope.
Love,
Cher
Posted by Susy on July 24, 2003, at 17:46:49
In reply to Re: Cher, posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 17:12:42
Hey Willie, I wish I could write as nice as you do!
Susy
Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 17:47:32
In reply to Re: Cher, posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 17:12:42
Dear Willie,
How are you doing? I am fine, and now that there is real trauma going on in my life, I will probably level off. I have to snap out of this depression to get through the days ahead, because I cannot be a basket case.
Having the guys home is helping. All of you are helping.
I promise that after I see the hand surgeon Monday I will spend my Tuesday calling PDoc's and therapists.
How are you doing? It seems you are helping more people than getting help here (kind of like Kimberly & Mercedes (that wonderful driving lady).
Seems you work a lot, which could be good. I'm thinking if I went back to a job full-time I may be too busy to be depressed, but....don't know if I can stand working a full eight hour day once a week let alone five days of eight hours shifts.
Please know I'm okay, and let me know how you are doing. I think I need to concentrate on other things besides me.
Love,
Cher
Posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 17:49:06
In reply to Re: Willie, posted by Susy on July 24, 2003, at 17:46:49
Posted by mercedes on July 24, 2003, at 18:21:14
In reply to Re: Are we all Pleasers w/men who are Controllers? » Yankeegirl, posted by KimberlyDi on July 21, 2003, at 16:03:20
I just had to go back and resurrect this subject, specially since I was interested in KDI's comment referred to in my previous note. And Yankee girl, I don't know why I didn't respond to you then. Maybe cuz I'm not in that situaltion anymore, or am I.......psycologically?
Yes, I too was a pleaser (subserviant wifey) w/a controlling, abusive husband. Fortunatly, I got out of the marriage after only three years AND a life sentence from his belittling me, degrading me, making me feel inadequate, not pretty enough, skinny enough, you name it, I wasn't it. This was over 20 years ago. I look at pictures of that era and I was a raving beauty-really! But did I feel that way - absolutly not.
I couldn't talk to my family about his abusiveness both physically and emotionally. I was brought up the old fashioned way, married till death do you part. Well, this was another time I had thoughts of suicide. Till Death do us part? ok, I can fix that. I actually had a gun pointed at my temple 2 separate times but my relegious beliefs kept me from pulling the trigger. I worked and he never so much as boiled water let alone help around the house. He never hit me in the face but he would pull my hair and throw me accross the room. My scalp would bleed and tons of hair came off. Next day I'd go to work and just moving my eyebrows would hurt so bad. Once I had to work on Sat and he didn't. He waited till I got home so's I could make him a sandwich. I guess I had a hair up my a** and said, make it yourself. I didn't quite get past the front door when he kicked me in the knee, threw me accross the room from my hair, had his finger in my face, "you're going to do as I say!". I wish I'd known about arsenic then, I would have loved to make him a bolony and arsenic sandwich. I culdn't walk for about two weeks but I made it to work. Oh yea, had to.
We separated once in those three years but got back together, with the "sorry's" and "I'll never do it again" shit. Peace of crap sentences that meant nothing. Actually it meant, come back to me, so's you can clean the house, buy the food you are going to cook for me, so's you can work so's I can buy big ol tires for my truck, cook for me again, have sex when I want it, let me degrade you some more, and when I want, I can hit you and beat you so's I can feel like a MAN! Tan-ta-rraa! (Fuc**r!).
Thanks to my mom-n-law, I left him for good after 3 yrs and a life sentence of feeling that I was no good, not worth being treated good. I met "good" men in my late 20's and 30's. Had long lasting relationships. But I guess my motto was, treat me good and I leave you eventually, treat me bad and I'll stay around longer.
My WANT AD for a man would read "Man wanted, preferably in a walker, so's if yu get ruf with me, I'll just kick your walker over."
Anyway, when did I start with my anxiety, PTSD, depression, not being social, agoraphobic? No, not after being raped, no, not while being married, no, not after adopting two "older 6 & 9" boys that degraded me, verbally abused me and one even put me in the DCS court system....(More on that later). Musta been from childhood, cause I had mean dad and a subserviant mom. God bless them, they are both deceased and I hold no anger towards them although I did at one time.
One of my boy's therapists once told me that I choose the men in my life cause I've been trying to find the man (or kid's) that my dad wasn't. Make sense? Oh, guess I have to tell about my childhood, which I can hardly remember having one. And that my dad commited suicide, or "completed" f'n suicide, whatever. That's been my excuse when I think of doing it, It runs in the family...HA!
I'm exhausted!
mercedes
********************************
> YankeeGirl,
> You seem remarkably self-aware of what's bothering you for someone that hasn't been to counseling yet. That's a plus. I am with a Controlling man. We work together, carpool together, live together, sleep together. I insist on taking my baths alone. My husband was the main force driving me to treatment. Fear. The weaker I am, the more abusive he gets. I had to get my act together to protect myself. He's not sure what to think about the new me.
> KDi in Texas
>
> > I've been on Effexor for about 4 weeks, but haven't had any counseling from the physchiatrist yet, and I go over the phych testing tomorrow, so I haven't had a chance to talk about my issues yet. When my child graduated high school in 2000 I thought "now I'll have more time to..." and I could not remember for the life of me what it was I used to like to do. Last month my baby graduated and I think my reaction was "I spent 24 years raising them, did a great job in spite of how stressful and overwhelming it was, and now can collapse. One afternoon, I was distraught and agonizing and crying over the thought of having to make dinner. When I added that to the realization that I had no identity anymore, that I had gradually given up pieces of myself to make my husband happy, who critized everything I ever did, that is when I realized I needed help. I've been reading a book by Dr. Kevin Leman called "The Pleasers - Women Who Can't Say No - And the Men Who Control Them (sorry Dr. Bob I don't know how to do that highlighting thing). This post is long enough without going into more details. I'm wondering ---- how many of you see yourselves in this same situation with a controlling man????? Yankeegirl
>
>
Posted by zinya on July 24, 2003, at 18:22:18
In reply to Re: personal thoughts » zinya, posted by CherC68 on July 24, 2003, at 17:17:30
thanks, Cher, for being so willing to elaborate on such matters... i'm happy to be an ear and only wish i knew more to be able to have more of a familiarity with BPD, but i very much appreciate your giving examples and being so open... The only thing i would say about BPD is that, I hear you saying you feel like it fits but i know from my own experience that doctors will often glibly give labels to a diagnosis that may or may not be on target. I think it will be good for you to find a therapist who is already familiar with BPD, if possible, because you will be entering with that conviction and it would be really good if the therapist has a familiarity to help you confirm as well as have ideas about dealing with it. (Do i gather that you are saying the diagnosis of BPD came before any sexual assault? although i gather you might also be saying that certainly could have aggravated it?)
I TOTALLY agree with you about 'normal'. I've even said for years - and even to students as well - that i think the word and concept of 'normal' would be better not existing -- I think it does much more harm than good. I recall even before my misguided marriage, that long ago, using a sort of mantra to myself that i would 'joke' about that i was happily abnormal cuz who wanted to be 'normal' !! AH, if ONLY i had really believed that deep down. It was more of a 'cover' and wish that i would feel that way. But it took certainly all the years of that marriage and probably double that before i even remotely began to strip away (and still stripping) layers of external expectations i had internalized ...
boy, i read your exploits (! :) standing up for yourself and others in fights and think more than ever i was such a 'wimp' growing up -- i had a LOT of fears ... and even both a physical imbalance (apparently inner ear injury from a car accident at age 6) plus fears probably triggered by the accident itself that may have been why i never even learned to ride a bike. I was too "unstable" physically and it was but one of a lot of senses of fear. I covered them all up though and pretended to be socially at ease though i lived in terror of such things as somebody wanting me to go bike-riding with them. With swimming i had a similar early scare -- and come to think of it, it had a bit of the element of what happened when that shrink came in and abruptly slapped down your 3 meds. One summer, the year after our auto accident, we moved to a new city to 'start over' and with all-new friends i was in a swimming class, already older than others cuz i'd been sort of shuttled during the year of my parents' recovering from the auto accident - both had nearly died ... (but me in the back seat only bounced my head against the roof - and only later discovered that inner-ear result) Anyway, this very abrupt swim coach would pick us up in the air, tell us to pretend we were airplanes and then he would "launch" us into the water. Well, it kind of terrified me. I couldn't admit to any of those terrors, but i just avoided swimming and diving ... took me til my 30's before i finally dedicated myself to learning to really swim .. and loving it.
Well, that probably doesn't seem like a parallel and probably isn't, but that thing of abruptness and lack of thought for how a child is processing things which so many adults, even now, engage in -- which can make kids feel very disrespected, and retreat inside themselves.
Your 4-yr-old memory still intrigues me. Somehow i sensed you were the oldest, and i wonder how secure you felt in the family at the time. It's soooo common for oldest kids to feel insecure in the face of a second child coming along 2 yrs later and seeming to take away their sense of connection to their parents. Seems like so many possibilities of what could have triggered your sense of panic. Was that the "first" such panic? And did they then start to become periodic 'attacks'?
Again, don't feel anything i ask you requires answering, but these are (some of) my thoughts ... and more hugs and good wishes!
love,
zinyap.s. btw, i sense that you are also so sensitive to and internalizing your parents' worries -- even without this latest one with your dad -- but the economic concerns and that too is surely a kind of "background noise" adding another layer of anxiety i bet you're taking on at some level ... That cannot be easy either.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2003, at 19:05:55
In reply to Re: Zinya, posted by willie on July 24, 2003, at 10:35:09
> I've been keeping my eye out for her other book "Stuggle for Intimacy".
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
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