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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 205. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 10:35:03
In reply to what about probiotics? » Larry Hoover, posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 10:11:14
> Does everyone have to take some probiotics (like live yogurt cultures) while taking magnesium? Eby's site says it's a must.
If you haven't had a broad-spectrum antibiotic recently, and your digestion seems uncomplicated (no bloating, gas, cramps, diarrhea), then the utility of probiotics may be slight. They're safe. They may help. But I'm not convinced they're essential. That's my opinion. I use them occasionally. It's possible they've helped with my IBS, but I'm not sure.
> On a personal note, I like that you can make everything you do (like truck driving) an art. I respect you for putting your all into your work, your posts, your driving. And I've never heard you whine about the hand you've been dealt. You're a true role model.
>
> beardy : )>That was a very sweet thing to say. I'm very touched. Thank you.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 10:46:57
In reply to Hope you don't mind...some more Mg questions:) :) » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on March 30, 2003, at 10:21:10
> Larry
>
> Thankyou for your response to my last questions
>
> Could I trouble you with a couple more questions.No trouble. :-)
> 1) When you answered that the magnesium amino acid chelate in the product I take is probably glycine does this mean that it's actually magnesium glycinate and therefore a beneficial form of magnesium?
It's just a guess. I hope you don't get too hung up on the issue. Pure glycine is more expensive to produce than is an amino acid blend (from hydrolyzed protein). Chelated magnesium dissolves readily in the stomach, so that's why it's useful. Apart from that, the chelating substance (an ionic form of any amino acid) may also have some psychotropic effect, but the total dose is low, relatively speaking. I'm not convinced that a little aspartic acid or glutamic acid is going to have a significant effect, but it might in a particular individual. If you're sensitive to e.g. aspartame in diet drinks, you'd probably already know that, and it would be wise to avoid any substance with a similar chemistry.
> 2) Regarding your advice to top up my magnesium with another form, I can actually get the following tablets very cheaply at my local health food store http://www.optimumhealth.com.au/productpages/product8505.html
> I'm just wondering if you took out your calculator whether you would consider this product to be a safe or beneficial form of magnesium?It seems like you're concerned about potentially taking something that might interfere with the benefits of magnesium, so that's why I suggested the chloride salt. Taking something which just says it's a chelate is a crap shoot in some respects. There is no way I can tell you what's really in these tablets, if it doesn't say on the label.
> 2) I forgot to ask you in my original questions what magnesium orotate is and whether this is also a beneficial or safe form (ie non toxic) form of magnesium?Orotic acid is safe, and the salt is quite soluble, so it's a good source of magnesium in that respect. However, I doubt the additional expense is worth it, all things considered, when magnesium chloride is available.
> 3) I read somewhere that magnesium orotate is actually the best absorbed form of magnesium. Is this true?By a couple of percentage points, according to some sources. Again, any advantage is trivial.
> Thanks for your patience once again Larry
>
> regards
> bluedog
>No problem. If I may close with a summary statement: Taking a magnesium supplement, any supplement, is better than not taking one at all.
Lar
Posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 12:05:45
In reply to Answers for the lazy girl--??s for all » kara lynne, posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 6:05:44
Thanks beardy!
That's good info, and I have already begun probiotics---just last week. Off to the health food store...
Posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 12:11:32
In reply to Re: Lazy girl wants magnesium answers... » kara lynne, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 8:04:59
I will look for the malate, but I might ask you for the link anyway. (Hopefully magnesium malate doesn't cause more stomach upset than any other form.) Thanks for simplifying things for me--I really appreciate it.
Posted by johnj on March 30, 2003, at 15:10:07
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 8:22:38
Thanks for the wonderful response as always Larry.
My sister gave up her career a few years back to be a stay at home mom and has spent the last several years writing her first mystery novel. At the same time she does editing. She went over my grad school thesis and my Prof was extremely impressed at how well I write, I guess I said how well she writes! She has a masters in microbiology and an undergraduate degree in chemistry. Her husband is a university prof. So, after she sees how well I am doing and why, if things ever get off the ground, even a little at a time let me know. :)
johnj
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2003, at 17:06:28
In reply to Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 5:49:41
> I've also been reading "Depression Free Naturally" by Joan Mathews Larson, "Your Miracle Brain" by Jean Carper, "The Cortisol Connection" by Shawn Talbott, and "The Omega-3 Connection" by Andrew Stoll.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 8:15:21
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 10:55:32
> [Larry Hoover] The second term in the name of a magnesium salt, for example, is called the counter ion. ... In the case of magnesium chloride, the chloride has no physiological effect, as chloride is one of the most common ions in the body already. What makes it so effective is its high solubility.I am wondering if there is some specific advantage to taking magnesium glycinate for stress as opposed to all the other types -- since glycine is itself a relaxant. Does this make sense?
I've been taking glycine before bed per "Depression Free Naturally" by Joan Mathews Larson, along with 3 mg. melatonin and 50 mg 5-HTP. I would take tryptophan instead, as Larson recommends that over 5-HTP, but I already had the 5-HTP onhand. I tried melatonin without the 5-HTP and felt the gray cloud creeping back the next day. This was one of the times I wish I had read George Eby's site http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html beforehand as he cautions against that.
> Supplements are cheap, generally safe, and in my control. I like those characteristics.
I think they're expensive, but not compared to what I've been paying for useless doctors and drugs! Mental health and a sense of well being? Priceless. :)
> Let him come to ask just what has contributed so much for your well-being. I bet he remains a skeptic, nonetheless.I'm just going to write him a letter. I'm certainly not paying $80 for a half hour of his time just to tell him I'm ok now, no thanks to you. ;)
Posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 9:08:51
In reply to Re: JLx, Larry Hoover, SLS -- Magnesium, posted by bozeman on March 29, 2003, at 17:18:27
> (bozeman comment 7)
> Kramer's book was a real eye-opener for me. It makes me sad that so many people jump to conclusions about what he was trying to say without actually reading the book. After reading it, and re-reading several sections, I took his point to be that though their improvements on Prozac were quite remarkable, the effect it had on his patients actually made him quite uneasy, as for the first time it opened the door to the possibility of debate/miscategorization/misuse/pressure of whether personality could be biologically determined, and therefore phamacologically altered, at will. He thought this could create enough confusion to eventually take away (or at least muddy the water) over an individual's right to be who they were, without feeling pressured to conform to a "socially preferable but induced by medication" personality. Not that such a personality was desirable or should be pursued, but that for the first time, it appeared to be possible to create it biochemically. And, his book was published before any long-term information existed on SSRI's, the term "poop-out" had not yet been coined nor the phenomenon really observed, and at that time, there appeared to be no "contraindication" to long-term SSRI use. That possibility deeply disturbed him, as it made "cosmetic psychopharmacology" potentially feasible, which was an idea that distressed him on medical, social, and spiritual levels. Long-term (and inadvertent) adaptive changes in neurotransmitter levels, and the poop-out phenomenon, have hopefully made his fears moot.Excellent summary. :)
> LOL . . . indeed, I agree with Larry. It never ceases to amaze me the ability of people (all of us, not just doctors or patients) to flatly ignore evidence in front of us that we just don't want to hear. Good luck, JLx, and I'm glad you're feeling so good. Don't let your doctor's lack of enthusiasm keep you from utilizing a relatively cheap, safe, effective therapy that's working so well for you. :-)
Ha! Don't worry. If I never see a psychiatrist again, it will be too soon. ;)
What ticks me off about them is that they get the big bucks for being scientists knowledegeable about the human body (as opposed to the mere psychologists). So why are we, their patients, the ones having to find our OWN WAY to these remedies that are about the human body, i.e. the brain....and mood?
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 31, 2003, at 9:13:31
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 8:15:21
>
> > [Larry Hoover] The second term in the name of a magnesium salt, for example, is called the counter ion. ... In the case of magnesium chloride, the chloride has no physiological effect, as chloride is one of the most common ions in the body already. What makes it so effective is its high solubility.
>
> I am wondering if there is some specific advantage to taking magnesium glycinate for stress as opposed to all the other types -- since glycine is itself a relaxant. Does this make sense?Yes, that's exactly right. By taking a supplement that has two active ingredients, you get dual effects.
> I've been taking glycine before bed per "Depression Free Naturally" by Joan Mathews Larson, along with 3 mg. melatonin and 50 mg 5-HTP. I would take tryptophan instead, as Larson recommends that over 5-HTP, but I already had the 5-HTP onhand. I tried melatonin without the 5-HTP and felt the gray cloud creeping back the next day. This was one of the times I wish I had read George Eby's site http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html beforehand as he cautions against that.
Hmmm.... I've never personally combined melatonin and 5-HTP. Might be worth a try, down the road.
> > Supplements are cheap, generally safe, and in my control. I like those characteristics.
>
> I think they're expensive, but not compared to what I've been paying for useless doctors and drugs!Yes, that's the comparison I intended. Compared to prescription meds, they're cheap. I spend about $1500/yr. on supplements, some of which are unsuccessful trials. Others work, and I hope to refine my supplement program to the extent that I no longer waste any money.
>Mental health and a sense of well being? Priceless. :)
Sounds like the commercial, eh?
> > Let him come to ask just what has contributed so much for your well-being. I bet he remains a skeptic, nonetheless.
>
> I'm just going to write him a letter. I'm certainly not paying $80 for a half hour of his time just to tell him I'm ok now, no thanks to you. ;)Ya, I wouldn't bring it up in person unless you had some other compelling reason to be there, anyway. Keep us informed about how you're doing, 'kay?
Lar
Posted by beardedlady on March 31, 2003, at 9:18:45
In reply to Re: what about probiotics?, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 10:35:03
Lar:
I'm heading to the health food store later and want to know, besides my 200mg. tabs of magnesium glycinate, what kind of probiotic to look for and how to take it.
Thank you, oh surpremely smart guru one.
beardy : )>
Posted by beardedlady on March 31, 2003, at 9:21:01
In reply to Re: what about probiotics?, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 10:35:03
I would like to support you in some way now that you have helped me so much. It doesn't look like you need my services as an English professor, as your grammar and punctuation are above par.
If you need to know anything about child rearing, poetry writing, mosaic making, or house painting, just ask away.
beardy : )>
Posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 9:22:18
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium! » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on March 29, 2003, at 23:09:59
> I have upped my Mg to 400 mg, but I tried taking some at noon and became very sleepy. I cannot explain why or how this has worked for me. Stunned, is probably the best word. I seem to sleep much sounder, not longer.
This wasn't addressed to me, but I hope it's ok that I comment. Are you taking boron? See George Eby's magnesium site for discussion of boron: http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html#boron Perhaps it would counteract the sleepiness? (I take both.)
Posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 9:41:55
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Mama Bear on March 29, 2003, at 23:59:21
>Many psychiatric medications are harming you more than they are helping you.
You're preaching to the choir here. :)
>My daughter who is 5 years of age has suffered permanent brain damage from an anti-psychotic medication called Respirdal.
Have you looked into the natural treatments for that? Evening Primrose Oil: http://www.mycustompak.com/healthNotes/Supp/Evening_Primrose_Oil.htm Vitamin E and others: http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/natural.htm This on a supplement-selling site, but the info is from "Healthnotes" and is all footnoted: http://www.puritan.com/HealthNotes/Concern/Tardive_Dyskinesia.htm
Since she is so young, her brain may be much more resilient than the conventional thinking would allow. Good luck to you.
Posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 10:00:25
In reply to what about probiotics? » Larry Hoover, posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 10:11:14
> Does everyone have to take some probiotics (like live yogurt cultures) while taking magnesium? Eby's site says it's a must.
I am taking them. I am following everything he says on that site like a faithful old dog. ;) That's far from my usual style, but the man's info DID give me my life back! In the last 5 weeks, when I felt the dark fog creeping back a couple days, after the panic had subsided (!!), I read his site again and found out where I had erred. Then I finally printed it out so I could highlight and make notes. I got the impression from correspondence with him that he regularly gets feedback from people -- especially when they are NOT helped at first -- so he has figured these things out from others' experiences as well as his own.
Posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 10:03:40
In reply to Re: double double quotes » JLx, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2003, at 17:06:28
Thanks, it's a great feature and one I wasn't aware of.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 31, 2003, at 10:09:39
In reply to P.S. » Larry Hoover, posted by beardedlady on March 31, 2003, at 9:21:01
> If you need to know anything about child rearing, poetry writing, mosaic making, or house painting, just ask away.
I dunno about Larry, but I could use your help. My child recently scrawled graffiti poetry and glued a tiled mosaic on the exterior of our neighbor's house. Now I need to hire a house painter. Any recommendations?
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on March 31, 2003, at 10:34:49
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium! » johnj, posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 9:22:18
HI JLX:
Of course I don't mind you giving some advice. I always encourage others to post any experiences/advice they might have. That is what makes this site so great.
I actually like the sleepiness it gives me. I haven't tried any boron and need to read that website thourghly. I have been just basking in finding my old self again after so much time.
I don't by any means think I am "cured" yet. I am going to take it slow and just add natural methods (excercise, tai chi,) and see what happens. I will most likely reduce my benzo dose first. and try to get what I was at a year ago. That is my first goal. My AD will be the last thing, but I don't see that happening for 6 months or a year from now. It is good to hear someone else has benefited too. take care and keep us posted on your progress! So, how are you doing now and how much Mg are you taking? What about other vitamins? Do you suffer from anxiety and depression? Sorry for the questions, but I would be interested if our experience/illness are similiar. Thanks!
Johnj
Posted by beardedlady on March 31, 2003, at 11:19:44
In reply to Re: P.S. » beardedlady, posted by Ron Hill on March 31, 2003, at 10:09:39
>Any recommendations?
Yes, i before e, except after c, and in weird words like weird. And sometimes y.
beardy : )>
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 31, 2003, at 15:37:13
In reply to probiotics » Larry Hoover, posted by beardedlady on March 31, 2003, at 9:18:45
> Lar:
>
> I'm heading to the health food store later and want to know, besides my 200mg. tabs of magnesium glycinate, what kind of probiotic to look for and how to take it.Well, the product I use is found in the refrigerated section. It contains three species: Lactobacillus rhamnosus, L. acidophilus, and bifidus (sp). You take it 30 minutes after a meal.
There are many different proprietary products. One of *my* considerations was price.
> Thank you, oh surpremely smart guru one.
>
> beardy : )>Oh, should I be starting a religion? ;-)
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 31, 2003, at 15:44:37
In reply to P.S. » Larry Hoover, posted by beardedlady on March 31, 2003, at 9:21:01
> I would like to support you in some way now that you have helped me so much.
I appreciate the offer.
>It doesn't look like you need my services as an English professor, as your grammar and punctuation are above par.
Well, I credit much of that to four years studying Latin. Suddenly, English made so much more sense.As an aside, marking university students' lab reports and essays, I was aghast to discover how little grammar and usage the students had learned over their many years of schooling. Trying to explain what a gerund was to one student became an exercise in futility and frustration. Or, for that matter, the scientific use of the passive voice. Anyway, I'm glad to hear that my foggy old brain has retained some of the old learnings.
>
> If you need to know anything about child rearing, poetry writing, mosaic making, or house painting, just ask away.
>
> beardy : )>I'll be sure to turn to you in a time of need.
Lar
Posted by Jack Smith on March 31, 2003, at 16:14:02
In reply to Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 5:49:41
OK, I don't want to sound like I am accusing anyone but I am very skeptical of this posting. . . First off the poster constantly provides a link to this website. Second, on the website, there is a link to this website--something like "join the discussion at psychobabble about magnesium." I hope that this poster is sincere and I hope that the owner of this website is sincere BUT the website contains a whole bunch of links to the usual anti-psychiatry people. For just an example, I copied just the three links below:
Psychiatry Kills - Documented Proof Psychiatric Drugs Shorten Life Span
Peter R. Breggin, MD. and Psychiatric Drug Facts (much data about various drugs and their effects and side effects)
The Antipsychiatry Coalition> Hi all, this is my first post here though I have lurked from time to time. I found George Eby's "Rapid Recovery From Severe, Stress-Induced Depression Using Magnesium" site http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html linked on a British online psychiatry journal. I see the link has been provided here before, but I wanted to mention his name, as I think he deserves a lot of credit for all his research, provided free for the rest of us.
Posted by justyourlaugh on March 31, 2003, at 16:42:19
In reply to I am very skeptical about this posting/poster » JLx, posted by Jack Smith on March 31, 2003, at 16:14:02
Posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 17:18:50
In reply to I am very skeptical about this posting/poster » JLx, posted by Jack Smith on March 31, 2003, at 16:14:02
> OK, I don't want to sound like I am accusing anyone but I am very skeptical of this posting. . . First off the poster constantly provides a link to this website. Second, on the website, there is a link to this website--something like "join the discussion at psychobabble about magnesium." I hope that this poster is sincere and I hope that the owner of this website is sincere BUT the website contains a whole bunch of links to the usual anti-psychiatry people.
Hmmpf! What would be my ulterior motive? What would be his? I know he did a TON of research to come up with the info he did, because I did a lot of research just to find him! I found his site linked on here http://www.priory.com/psych.htm : The International Forum for Psychiatry - the world's First Internet Medical Journal
Editor: Dr Ben Green, MB, ChB, MRCPsych ILTM. University of Liverpool. Please note that's "Psychiatry" not ANTIPsychiatry. On that page, under "Latest Articles and Papers", there is a link called "The Best of Other Psychiatry Pages". From there, click on PSYCHIATRY, and on there scroll down about half way, under Affective Disorders, Eby's site is linked as "Depression and magnesium - user page with interesting ideas". That's how I found his site -- from a British online psychiatry journal, just as I said.
And I had no idea this site was linked on Eby's site, but so what that it is?I've never read Peter Breggin's book nor have I been "antipsychiatry" until NOW. My life is in shambles from years of depression -- that's "treated" depression btw -- and if it weren't for George Eby's site called "Rapid Recovery From Severe, Stress-Induced Depression Using Magnesium" -- and here's that link AGAIN ;)
http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html I wouldn't even be posting here because I USED TO BE TOO DEPRESSED TO DO SO. I used to wake up right into the feeling of wanting to put a gun to my head, and then commenced wondering how I was going to get through another day, or gee, should I try another drug? Another doctor? Spend some more hundreds of dollars on PSYCHIATRY instead of making another house payment? Check into a hospital? (No, probably not that one as I have no insurance.)After 3 DAYS on magnesium, I woke up in a positive mood, spontaneously sat up in bed and stretched --something I can't remember doing since I was a teenager -- and thought, hey, what shall I get done today?? That's a miracle.
I don't have a job, I don't have an income. I'm facing foreclosure on my house. I'm thousands of dollars in debt and have 3 court judgments against me. I've lost all but one friend, my previous career, my savings and just about everything else TO PSYCHIATRY TREATED DEPRESSION but I feel better today than I have felt in years!! I am no longer depressed thanks to George Eby and his provided-for-free information that saved my life!! That's how it feels to me. I NOW have my life back. I NEVER expected to EVER AGAIN feel even HALF this good. Yes, I am now cynical and jaded about psychiatry. Magnesium for depression is not something completely unknown and obscure. There were medical studies done decades ago. What do we pay psychiatrists for except their scientific expertise and knowledge about the human body? My psychiatrist pooh-poohed any possible beneficial effect from magnesium when I specifically asked him and IF I HAD LISTENED TO HIM, I would not be here today posting because I used to be too depressed to communicate!!
I don't care if you believe me. I only care to spread this word about something that SAVED MY LIFE FROM THE ABSOLUTE EVERYDAY HELL OF DEPRESSION -- and that's while on antidepressant drugs, thank you very much -- just in case it might benefit someone else. Even one person.
Posted by Jack Smith on March 31, 2003, at 18:12:42
In reply to Re: I am very skeptical about this posting/poster » Jack Smith, posted by JLx on March 31, 2003, at 17:18:50
Posted by beardedlady on March 31, 2003, at 19:42:11
In reply to Convinced me to try it, I hope I'm eating my words (nm) » JLx, posted by Jack Smith on March 31, 2003, at 18:12:42
I sent George an e-mail telling him I'd learned of his site from here, and he asked for a link, so I sent him to the site and to the thread.
Sorry. I don't think the link was there before.
beardy : )>
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