![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 205. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 10:55:32
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 10:19:11
> > Another excellent form is magnesium malate, something highly recommended for fibro sufferers.
>
> I confess to not understanding the science behind the different types of magnesium available. Do you know why malate specifically would be recommended for that?The second term in the name of a magnesium salt, for example, is called the counter ion. In a magnesium salt, the magnesium is ionized, taking on a positive charge, and the counter ion is negative, forming a neutral molecule. In the case of magnesium chloride, the chloride has no physiological effect, as chloride is one of the most common ions in the body already. What makes it so effective is its high solubility. In the case of other counter ions, e.g. aspartate or malate, the counter ion does have an independent physiological effect. In essence, some magnesium salts have a single mode of action (neutral counter ion), whereas others have dual effects.
Malic acid, if I recall correctly, enhances the Krebs cycle activity. The Krebs cycle is the process used by the body for liberating energy from fat.
I personally happen to have some of the symptoms of fibro. Given that malic acid may be beneficial for the condition, I *may* obtain more benefit from magnesium malate than from magnesium chloride, for example.
> > I suggest a more cautious position than you, however. I agree that nutritional issues may be prominent in many mental disorders, but I think there are other unrelated factors. I think everyone should try different suppportive nutrients, to see if improvements are possible via methods which are entirely within the subjects' control. That's what I most like about nutritional strategies, they are totally within my control. I do better when I monitor and supplement my intake of nutrients than when I do not trouble myself to do so (and trouble myself is an apt phrase here). I am what I eat.
> Yes, it is a lot of trouble to figure out supplements and nutrition, especially given the conflicting advice from the various factions, but that's what I like about it too, having control.Supplements are cheap, generally safe, and in my control. I like those characteristics.
> What I've discovered now that I am no longer depressed (wow, I like saying that! :)) is that depression creates its own logic -- "I'm depressed because of .....", but once you're out of the state of depression -- Poof!-- all that "stuff" is just gone.It is only because I have stabilized my mood with supplements that I was able to determine that I have other comorbid conditions. All we knew before was that I was a very complicated treatment-resistant depressive. Now I'm a depressive with comorbid PTSD, chronic fatigue/fibro something or other (I find that diagnostic definitions are limitations. I don't fit neatly into the diagnostic categories, and that limits their utility to *me*.), and irritable bowel syndrome. And there are nutritional strategies for those other things, too.
>You probably have read Kramer's book, "Listening to Prozac".
Nope, sorry.
>What I remember best from that book was his observation that people's personalities appeared to be changed by Prozac, so what did it mean after all to speak of "personality"? I feel like my personality is changed now too, but BACK to when I was much younger, so this feels like more "me" than ever.
I think we are all environmentally reactive, and strictly speaking, I consider medications to be environmental influences.
> I read Eby's site before my last psychiatrist appointment and specifically asked him about magnesium, and received a negative response. Good thing I ignored him! ;)Let him come to ask just what has contributed so much for your well-being. I bet he remains a skeptic, nonetheless.
Lar
Posted by beardedlady on March 29, 2003, at 11:18:01
In reply to Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 5:49:41
Posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 11:28:39
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Ellen S. on March 29, 2003, at 9:02:41
> Interesting. It appears that the recommended level of magnesium is about 400 mg/day (see http://www.nationaldairycouncil.org/lvl04/nutrilib/digest/dairydigest_686e.htm ) and 700 mg/day is considered safe (this is the "no observed adverse effects level" -- see http://www.crnusa.org/about_safety.html ).
I've always taken a carefully chosen multi-vitamin/mineral, and also took calcium/magnesium supplements (until I had a calclium kidney stone that is) and had no idea that I could be magnesium deficient. I didn't realize, for instance, that in the supplement I was taking the magnesium was a poorly absorbed kind so that I wasn't really getting much, if any, magnesium at all.
This article http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/1999-No3-MagnesiumandAging.cfm notes that the RDA for magnesium is about 2 mg per pound of body weight, which the typical American diet rarely meets. Whereas Asians, Dr. Lam says, already get 3.-4.5 mg per pound of body weight.
Posted by bozeman on March 29, 2003, at 17:18:27
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 10:55:32
JLx and Larry Hoover:
I've inserted comments as notated below. I apologize for what may be tough to read since I've left in your comments intact.SLS:
You asked me several weeks ago (in response to a different thread) what kind and dosage of magnesium I was taking. Answers included below (if you can find them. :-) I didn't feel comfortable including just part of the previous post since it's so deeply involved.> > > Another excellent form is magnesium malate, something highly recommended for fibro sufferers.
> >
> > I confess to not understanding the science behind the different types of magnesium available. Do you know why malate specifically would be recommended for that?
>
> The second term in the name of a magnesium salt, for example, is called the counter ion. In a magnesium salt, the magnesium is ionized, taking on a positive charge, and the counter ion is negative, forming a neutral molecule. In the case of magnesium chloride, the chloride has no physiological effect, as chloride is one of the most common ions in the body already. What makes it so effective is its high solubility. In the case of other counter ions, e.g. aspartate or malate, the counter ion does have an independent physiological effect. In essence, some magnesium salts have a single mode of action (neutral counter ion), whereas others have dual effects.
>
(bozeman comment 1)
The chloride ion actually can be used, as well . . . in certain circumstances. It's what your body uses to produce hydrochloric acid in the stomach so you can digest your food, and make some partial use out of the inorganic minerals you get like calcium carbonate -- the HCl can actually liberate some of the calcium, but only if you have enough HCL in your stomach. Especially for people on a low-salt diet, chloride is valuable. For years I was vegetarian and used no salt on my food, so much so that after analyzing my symptoms, and ordering blood tests, stomach acid and stool analysis, my doctor ordered me to eat more salt. My blood levels of chloride were low-normal, but I had none to spare, so stomach acid suffered. I started salting my food again (which was really hard!) and within a month the indigestion, gas, etc. had gone away, and I actually felt much better, too. But not getting enough chloride will be a rare problem. Most excess sodium in the diet comes from preservatives and additives -- according to my doctor, everyday table salt is pretty safe in most situations (though admittedly not all.) But most people do get enough salt that they will not have the chloride shortage I had.
(end bozeman comment 1)>
> Malic acid, if I recall correctly, enhances the Krebs cycle activity. The Krebs cycle is the process used by the body for liberating energy from fat.
>(bozeman comment 2)
This excerpt from the following website says it better than I could:
http://www.prohealthnetwork.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/3113/T/Both/" . . .Fibromyalgia pain may respond within 48 hours, while fatigue may take about two weeks.
The effectiveness of the supplement has a sound scientific base. Malic acid, a fruit acid extracted from apples and widely used in the food industry, is essential in the formation of ATP, which is our body’s energy source. Malic acid has the ability to allow the body to make ATP more efficiently, even under low oxygen, or hypoxic, conditions. Magnesium is a mineral that is required for over 100 enymatic reactions in the body. Interestingly, many researchers such as Dr. Cheney, have noted that a large percentage of patients are magnesium depleted on an intra-cellular basis (inside the cell). Standard blood tests are not sensitive to intra-cellular magnesium.
In a study published in the May, 1995 edition of the Journal of Rheumatology, the results of FM treatment with malic acid were assessed in terms of pain, tenderness, ability to function, and psychological well-being.
The results showed no therapeutic effects on Fibromyalgia symptoms when malic acid was taken at the dosage of 600mg for twice a day for four weeks. However, when the dosage of malic acid was increased to 1200mg twice a day there were significant reductions in the pain and tenderness of the Fibromyalgia symptoms. [Treatment of Fibromyalgia syndrome with Super Malic: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover pilot study. Russell IJ; Michalek JE; Flechas JD; Abraham GE; J Rheumatol, 22(5):953-8 1995 May] "So, Larry, you're right about it being a Krebs Cycle potentiator.
(end bozeman comment 2)>
> I personally happen to have some of the symptoms of fibro. Given that malic acid may be beneficial for the condition, I *may* obtain more benefit from magnesium malate than from magnesium chloride, for example.
>(bozeman comment 3)
Specifically for the fibromyalgia, yes, this may be the case. But I doubt if you would fail to benefit from the magnesium chloride, since according to many sources, including my doctor, virtually everyone with a chronic or serious health problem is deficient in intracellular magnesium (as noted above in the fibromyalgia study). Magnesium is absolutely essential to so many of the body's systems -- it catalyzes hundreds of reactions, and is integral to perhaps thousands more, including the regulation of the calcium channel in the brain, the contract/relax function of our muscles, sleep regulation, etc. MgCl is relatively cheap, too, which is a plus.My doctor recommends Magnesium Taurate as the most "bang for your buck" magnesium supplement, but says you can only take two 125 mg capsules per day of it (your body won't absorb more, and it will give you loose stools if you go too high.)
http://www.thewayup.com/products/0186.htm
Since my intracellular magnesium levels were so low and I couldn't get intravenous infusions every day and hold a job :-) she agreed I would take several different kinds, and get the intravenous "boosts" when I am ill or under extreme stress only. I take a daily cocktail of Magnesium Taurate( 2-125 mg), Magnesium Maleate (2-825 mg, yielding 200 mg magnesium), Krebs Cycle Chelates (a multi-mineral, 5-yielding 500 mg magnesium), get another 900 mg of magnesium oxide and magnesium chelates from my multivitamin/mineral complex. I know, it sounds like a LOT, but with my health situation, it's what I need. My the doctor is fully aware and in agreement (she recommended most of it, in fact. I was only taking the multivitamin/mineral, none of the other stuff.) I would NOT recommend taking such a high dose without medical supervision.
(end bozeman comment 3)> > > I suggest a more cautious position than you, however. I agree that nutritional issues may be prominent in many mental disorders, but I think there are other unrelated factors. I think everyone should try different suppportive nutrients, to see if improvements are possible via methods which are entirely within the subjects' control. That's what I most like about nutritional strategies, they are totally within my control. I do better when I monitor and supplement my intake of nutrients than when I do not trouble myself to do so (and trouble myself is an apt phrase here). I am what I eat.
>(bozeman comment 4)
Again, I completely agree. While I tremendously disdain taking so many meds and supplements every day, I cannot argue that I am much improved over when I did not. And every time I try to discontinue one (though the individual components are mostly low-priced, the aggregate cost is staggering) I have a decrease in well-being each time. For now, I need it all, apparently. Until whatever situation made me so deficient is rectified, I need mega-doses to supply both daily needs and to replenish my body's resources.
(end bozeman comment 4)> > Yes, it is a lot of trouble to figure out supplements and nutrition, especially given the conflicting advice from the various factions, but that's what I like about it too, having control.
>
> Supplements are cheap, generally safe, and in my control. I like those characteristics.
>(bozeman comment 5)
YES!!! Absolutely. There's nothing regaining some feeling of control to help lift your mood. :-)
(end bozeman comment 6)> > What I've discovered now that I am no longer depressed (wow, I like saying that! :)) is that depression creates its own logic -- "I'm depressed because of .....", but once you're out of the state of depression -- Poof!-- all that "stuff" is just gone.
>
> It is only because I have stabilized my mood with supplements that I was able to determine that I have other comorbid conditions. All we knew before was that I was a very complicated treatment-resistant depressive. Now I'm a depressive with comorbid PTSD, chronic fatigue/fibro something or other (I find that diagnostic definitions are limitations. I don't fit neatly into the diagnostic categories, and that limits their utility to *me*.), and irritable bowel syndrome. And there are nutritional strategies for those other things, too.
>
> >You probably have read Kramer's book, "Listening to Prozac".
>
> Nope, sorry.
>
> >What I remember best from that book was his observation that people's personalities appeared to be changed by Prozac, so what did it mean after all to speak of "personality"? I feel like my personality is changed now too, but BACK to when I was much younger, so this feels like more "me" than ever.(bozeman comment 7)
Kramer's book was a real eye-opener for me. It makes me sad that so many people jump to conclusions about what he was trying to say without actually reading the book. After reading it, and re-reading several sections, I took his point to be that though their improvements on Prozac were quite remarkable, the effect it had on his patients actually made him quite uneasy, as for the first time it opened the door to the possibility of debate/miscategorization/misuse/pressure of whether personality could be biologically determined, and therefore phamacologically altered, at will. He thought this could create enough confusion to eventually take away (or at least muddy the water) over an individual's right to be who they were, without feeling pressured to conform to a "socially preferable but induced by medication" personality. Not that such a personality was desirable or should be pursued, but that for the first time, it appeared to be possible to create it biochemically. And, his book was published before any long-term information existed on SSRI's, the term "poop-out" had not yet been coined nor the phenomenon really observed, and at that time, there appeared to be no "contraindication" to long-term SSRI use. That possibility deeply disturbed him, as it made "cosmetic psychopharmacology" potentially feasible, which was an idea that distressed him on medical, social, and spiritual levels. Long-term (and inadvertent) adaptive changes in neurotransmitter levels, and the poop-out phenomenon, have hopefully made his fears moot.However, at this date, I don't think many people will argue that mood and personality can be pharmacologically influenced (which includes nutrition, in my opinion.)
(end bozeman comment 7)>
> I think we are all environmentally reactive, and strictly speaking, I consider medications to be environmental influences.
>
> > I read Eby's site before my last psychiatrist appointment and specifically asked him about magnesium, and received a negative response. Good thing I ignored him! ;)
>
> Let him come to ask just what has contributed so much for your well-being. I bet he remains a skeptic, nonetheless.
>
> Lar
JLx --
LOL . . . indeed, I agree with Larry. It never ceases to amaze me the ability of people (all of us, not just doctors or patients) to flatly ignore evidence in front of us that we just don't want to hear. Good luck, JLx, and I'm glad you're feeling so good. Don't let your doctor's lack of enthusiasm keep you from utilizing a relatively cheap, safe, effective therapy that's working so well for you. :-)Larry --
I'm so glad you're here to provide scientific explanation (in English instead of Latin :-) that's understandable to most everyone. I usually don't even toss my two cents worth in as you do such a good job of answering people's questions. Thanks for taking the time to explain things so well. I always learn something reading your posts.Scott --
I know I promised to answer your questions awhile back, but I got sick, the message archived, then I forgot. Sorry. Hope this helps.Peace and good health to you all.
bozeman
Posted by beardedlady on March 29, 2003, at 18:53:27
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 10:55:32
Lar:
I haven't read a ton of your posts--only enough to know that what Bozeman says is true: you write explanations of science in perfect, plain English.
What do you do for a living?
beardy : )>
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 19:40:15
In reply to Question for you! » Larry Hoover, posted by beardedlady on March 29, 2003, at 18:53:27
> Lar:
>
> I haven't read a ton of your posts--only enough to know that what Bozeman says is true: you write explanations of science in perfect, plain English.I'm glad to hear that I'm well understood. I work hard at it.
> What do you do for a living?
>
> beardy : )>If I hadn't experienced a major breakdown in '96, I'd likely be a tenured professor by now. I'm trained in organic and analytical chemistry, with a tendency to focus on environmental toxicology. I also have a science degree in psychology. I've done some fairly recent contract work in my field for a major environmental organization, but I really don't work in science right now. I drive a truck to support myself at the present time.
Lar
Posted by mopey on March 29, 2003, at 20:59:43
In reply to Re: Question for you!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 19:40:15
> > Lar:
> >
> > I haven't read a ton of your posts--only enough to know that what Bozeman says is true: you write explanations of science in perfect, plain English.
>
> I'm glad to hear that I'm well understood. I work hard at it.
>
> > What do you do for a living?
> >
> > beardy : )>
>
> If I hadn't experienced a major breakdown in '96, I'd likely be a tenured professor by now. I'm trained in organic and analytical chemistry, with a tendency to focus on environmental toxicology. I also have a science degree in psychology. I've done some fairly recent contract work in my field for a major environmental organization, but I really don't work in science right now. I drive a truck to support myself at the present time.
>
> Lar
>They're right, you are very good at explaining scientific matters so everyday people can understand them.
If you enjoy using that expertise, have you tried freelance scientific writing? Many magazines can such fluff on pyschology and related issues, and I'm sure you could create a niche.
I know it's food-related, but Cooking Light magazine does run informative mental health/nutrition pieces. Perhaps you could try pitching an idea there? You know all the current trends and patterns of thinking on these issues -- go for it!
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 22:38:15
In reply to Larry..., posted by mopey on March 29, 2003, at 20:59:43
> They're right, you are very good at explaining scientific matters so everyday people can understand them.
>
> If you enjoy using that expertise, have you tried freelance scientific writing? Many magazines can such fluff on pyschology and related issues, and I'm sure you could create a niche.
>
> I know it's food-related, but Cooking Light magazine does run informative mental health/nutrition pieces. Perhaps you could try pitching an idea there? You know all the current trends and patterns of thinking on these issues -- go for it!Thanks for the positive feedback. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons I get involved in these scientific discussions is to practice the kind of writing that might be useful in e.g. magazine science columns. I would like to try that kind of writing some day.
Lar
Posted by johnj on March 29, 2003, at 23:09:59
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 10:55:32
Hi Larry,
Great to see your post. I have had an almost perfect week and I haven't had one full good week in a long time. I have upped my Mg to 400 mg, but I tried taking some at noon and became very sleepy. I cannot explain why or how this has worked for me. Stunned, is probably the best word. I seem to sleep much sounder, not longer. I have worked out some, which use to cause a major system failure for me as I have mentioned. Would you have any idea how Mg is countering this effect? I just wonder if I was depledted and working out just sucked more Mg? I have been taking Mg citrate, but wonder if malate would be better?
I am not thinking of giving up any meds. I feel the depression/anxiety took a while to show itself so if I am "healing" I will let the Mg do it's work over a period of time and after talking with my doc. If he doesn't believe the Mg could be helping I will find a new doc. I am by no means "cured" just have finally taken one step forward without two backwards. I have added the vitamin E for the Peyronie's disease and haven't had any adverse reaction which is also good.
One other thing I have noticed is that before I took the Mg I would often wake up and stew about things and magnify problems at work. I would play things over and over. This has seemed to drop off significantly too. If I stew it is about good things like wanting to build a house and how I would do it. I find this very interesting. The past week I kept waiting for the next morning when I would wake up feeling bad....and it didn't come. I realize that I EXPECTED to feel abnormal instead of just waking up and going about my business.
I have more energy too. The first couple of mornings I was dragging, but that has now normalized. By Wednesday of last week I actually was motivated at work. I have been getting by since I work for the government, but now I don't mind going to work. It just seems so SIMPLE, it almost seems unreal. I even think clearer and better. Now, I feel able to handle some of my physical problems too.
I have always meant to ask you about taking asprin and if you think it has any benefits over the long term taking the baby dose every day. Biology was such a long time ago and I remember something about aspring inhibiting prostaglandins(sp?). I can't remember what prostaglandins even do anymore.
Larry, be careful out there driving. Thanks a million for all your help. Ever think about writing a book based on the questions and your input? Who better qualified to help us all, one trained in the field and who has personal experience. I sometimes feel docs have no clue. Take care
johnj
Posted by Mama Bear on March 29, 2003, at 23:59:21
In reply to Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 5:49:41
I am glad that you have found out that psychiatry most times is just smoke and mirrors. They group you into certain categorys just by the symptoms you have. In actual fact there really aren't many psychiatric disorders at all. If any for that matter. You should check out Dr. Peter Breggin at www.breggin.com or read his book called, Your Drug May Be Your Problem. Many psychiatric medications are harming you more than they are helping you. My daughter who is 5 years of age has suffered permanent brain damage from an anti-psychotic medication called Respirdal. This type of drug is a neuroleptic and does cause permanent damage to your brain. I am not suprised that you feel better. Most people don't realize that these drugs intesify the symptoms that you were taking these drugs for in the first place. Without psychiatric medications these psychiatrists would have no patients. The reason for this is because if it weren't for these drugs causing alot of these mental illness' they would not have anybody to treat. I wish we would have found this out before all the damage to her brain was done. She has Tardive Dyskinesia and it is not reversable. It is a real tragedy. More people have to start questioning their doctors about these drugs. Information is something that every patient deserves and has the right to know. Your doctor is supposed to discuss all the possible side effects of these drugs and it should be noted in your medical records that this kind of information has been discussed with you. If not your doctor may be held responsible if you were not told of these serious side effects and you end up having one. Please relay this information to anyone you know who is/has or is about to begin taking one of these medications. Tammy
Posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 0:36:03
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Mama Bear on March 29, 2003, at 23:59:21
I promise to go and read the above threads--just as soon as I have more energy from the magnesium I am going to start taking. In the meantime can someone just post a guideline or is it too complicated? Glycinate is good, or malate if I have fibro symptoms (which I do)? If I were to walk in a health food store tomorrow, with a very sensitive digestive system, what would someone recommend I start at? I know I'm being lazy, but maybe someone will indulge me--if I promise to read more later!
Posted by Questionmark on March 30, 2003, at 1:35:40
In reply to Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 5:49:41
Just to keep the information balanced... i've been using magnesium supplements for the past few weeks (mg glycinate and mg citrate, getting aproximately 100% RDA) and i haven't noticed anything.
i don't know.
Posted by bluedog on March 30, 2003, at 4:33:36
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 8:54:58
> > Hi all, this is my first post here though I have lurked from time to time. I found George Eby's "Rapid Recovery From Severe, Stress-Induced Depression Using Magnesium" site http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html linked on a British online psychiatry journal.
>
> I think everyone should have a look at this site. There are references to other potentially comorbid conditions as well, such as fibromyalgia
> and chronic fatigue.
>
> >
> > I started on magnesium glycinate and quit my meds (Zoloft, Provigil) 24 hours later because I was already feeling so much better. (Not recommended, I know, but I could NOT bring myself to take what now felt like poison.)
>
> Another excellent form is magnesium malate, something highly recommended for fibro sufferers.
>
> > I've also been reading "Depression Free Naturally" by Joan Mathews Larson, "Your Miracle Brain" by Jean Carper, "The Cortisol Connection" by Shawn Talbott, and "The Omega-3 Connection" by Andrew Stoll. Between the info in those books and my recent experience, I am wondering if ALL of our mental illnesses are related to nutritional deficiencies -- if we can just figure out which ones apply to us individually. As someone said, "Where do neurotransmitters come from?"
>
> I am grateful and excited to hear about your superb results.
>
> I suggest a more cautious position than you, however. I agree that nutritional issues may be prominent in many mental disorders, but I think there are other unrelated factors. I think everyone should try different suppportive nutrients, to see if improvements are possible via methods which are entirely within the subjects' control. That's what I most like about nutritional strategies, they are totally within my control. I do better when I monitor and supplement my intake of nutrients than when I do not trouble myself to do so (and trouble myself is an apt phrase here). I am what I eat.
>
>Hi Larry
I thought I was doing the right thing with my magnesium supplements. The particular brand I take contains the following magnesium compounds in each tablet for a total of 73mg elemental magnesium per tablet:-
Magnesium orotate 200mg
(eqiuv. 13mg magnesium)Magnesium aspartate 200mg
(equiv. 13.4mg magnesium)Magnesium amino acid chelate 150mg
(equiv. 30mg magnesium)Magnesium phosphate 80mg
(equiv. 16.5mg magnesium)
Now having read George Eby's "Rapid Recovery From Severe, Stress-Induced Depression Using Magnesium" site I saw that he considers magnesium aspartate as toxic and now I am worried!!!!!I therefore have some questions for you Larry:-
1) Am I actually worsening my depression by taking this particular formulation?
2) Should I discontinue taking these tablets because of the magnesium aspartate content (I just bought a new bottle of 100 tablets)?
3) What is magnesium amino acid chelate in the context of your explanation in this thread on what the various magnesium compounds mean?
Thanks Larry
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 6:05:44
In reply to Lazy girl wants magnesium answers..., posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 0:36:03
>If I were to walk in a health food store tomorrow, with a very sensitive digestive system, what would someone recommend I start at? I know I'm being lazy, but maybe someone will indulge me--if I promise to read more later!
I'm lazy too, but I read George Eby's whole site and THEN I e-mailed him! : )>
He recommends (for me & my insomnia) taking 200 mg. with every meal and 200 mg. at bedtime to start (800/day). (He likes 400mg. with each meal.) He also says you have to take probiotics (good bacteria like that found in yogurt) to avoid having the magnesium leak out of you. Go to his site for more information about that. The link is on the thread starter. (I think this is it: http://coldcure.com/html/dep.html)
(Does this sound right to you, Larry and everyone? I'm especially curious about the necessity of probiotics. Is everyone on magnesium here using these?)
He says Carlson chelated magnesium is the best (photo at his site), but avoid other products that say "'chelated magnesium' because it could be one of the toxic amino acid forms --particularly lethal is magnesium glutamate."
I think, though, you can tell by the label what kind of magnesium you are getting, and I'd say to look for two you mentioned. I'm heading there myself today.
Good luck to us.
beardy : )>
I'm going to start out much lower than that, as I am a chicken about things in pill form.Remember the olden days when we actually took pills FOR their side effects?!
beardy : )>
Posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 6:15:22
In reply to Other Experiences, posted by Questionmark on March 30, 2003, at 1:35:40
> Just to keep the information balanced... i've been using magnesium supplements for the past few weeks (mg glycinate and mg citrate, getting aproximately 100% RDA) and i haven't noticed anything.
> i don't know.Every body is different, so your lack of success with magnesium is not a surprise. I'm sorry, though, that it's not working in the way you'd like. I think we're all looking for a miracle cure--especially a non-drug cure.
However, the RDA are the absolute bare minimum requirements (I think my therapist told me they were quickly devised during wartime for the military? Do I have this right?)--and they are WELL BELOW what your body actually needs. You will find that even your doctors' recommendations for vitamins and minerals far exceed the dosage on the RDA list.
In order for vitamins and minerals to be effective (make a noticeable improvement), you have to take well beyond the minimum. I believe the recommended daily dose (for therapy) is between 800 and 1200mg.
How much are you taking?
beardy : )>
Posted by btnd on March 30, 2003, at 6:18:33
In reply to Lazy girl wants magnesium answers..., posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 0:36:03
For the past few days, I've been using magnesium carbonate 1500 mg. I'm using that much because the absorbtion of carbonate is less lower then glycinate/chelate.
http://coldcure.com/gif/magnesium.jpg
I'm feeling less depressed, slighly more motivation. I just hope it's not placebo :)
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 7:59:12
In reply to Re: Magnesium Aspartate? How harmful is it???? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on March 30, 2003, at 4:33:36
> I thought I was doing the right thing with my magnesium supplements. The particular brand I take contains the following magnesium compounds in each tablet for a total of 73mg elemental magnesium per tablet:-
>
> Magnesium orotate 200mg
> (eqiuv. 13mg magnesium)
>
> Magnesium aspartate 200mg
> (equiv. 13.4mg magnesium)
>
> Magnesium amino acid chelate 150mg
> (equiv. 30mg magnesium)
>
> Magnesium phosphate 80mg
> (equiv. 16.5mg magnesium)
>
>
> Now having read George Eby's "Rapid Recovery From Severe, Stress-Induced Depression Using Magnesium" site I saw that he considers magnesium aspartate as toxic and now I am worried!!!!!
>
> I therefore have some questions for you Larry:-
>
> 1) Am I actually worsening my depression by taking this particular formulation?I wouldn't be overly concerned. You'll get nore aspartate from eating a meal with beef or chicken. Just take it with a meal, so the amino acid counter ion (the aspartate part) doesn't enter the blood all in one little flood. Also, take note that your 630 mg tablet contains only 73 mg magnesium. You would need to take a number of these particular tablets to meet the treatment guidelines of 400-800 mg magnesium per day. Rather than taking a number of these, you may want to take additional tablets of magnesium chloride (cheap and effective) to top up your magnesium intake for the day.
> 2) Should I discontinue taking these tablets because of the magnesium aspartate content (I just bought a new bottle of 100 tablets)?
Answered above.
> 3) What is magnesium amino acid chelate in the context of your explanation in this thread on what the various magnesium compounds mean?I could probably tell you exactly if I spent a few minutes with a calculator, but it's probably glycine.
> Thanks Larry
>
> warm regards
> bluedogYou're welcome. Hope you're well.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 8:04:59
In reply to Lazy girl wants magnesium answers..., posted by kara lynne on March 30, 2003, at 0:36:03
> I promise to go and read the above threads--just as soon as I have more energy from the magnesium I am going to start taking. In the meantime can someone just post a guideline or is it too complicated? Glycinate is good, or malate if I have fibro symptoms (which I do)? If I were to walk in a health food store tomorrow, with a very sensitive digestive system, what would someone recommend I start at? I know I'm being lazy, but maybe someone will indulge me--if I promise to read more later!
Magnesium chloride will probably give you the most "bang for the buck", but if you have fibro, I'd lean towards the malate. If you have trouble finding the latter in a store, I can tell you where you can get some on the net at a good price.
You want to get at least 400 mg per day of magnesium, working up to closer to 2000 mg/day for fibro sufferers. To avoid stomach upset and diarrhea, you need to spread the intake out over the day, as the concentration in the gut at any moment in time determines whether you'll get diarrhea or not.
Some people tend to get drowsy with magnesium, so if you do, schedule yuour doses to get more in the evening.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 8:22:38
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium! » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on March 29, 2003, at 23:09:59
> Hi Larry,
>
> Great to see your post. I have had an almost perfect week and I haven't had one full good week in a long time. I have upped my Mg to 400 mg, but I tried taking some at noon and became very sleepy. I cannot explain why or how this has worked for me. Stunned, is probably the best word. I seem to sleep much sounder, not longer. I have worked out some, which use to cause a major system failure for me as I have mentioned. Would you have any idea how Mg is countering this effect? I just wonder if I was depledted and working out just sucked more Mg? I have been taking Mg citrate, but wonder if malate would be better?I am really glad to hear about the improvement in sleep quality. Most doctors do not give nearly enough attention to this aspect of care. They'll ask you about hours of sleep, but ignore the issue of restorative (or not) sleep.
If you're magnesium deficient, your body will not handle physiological stress very well. You will not bounce back readily.
Even if you do not have fibro, the malate may indeed offer benefits with respect to exercise stress. It can't hurt you, that's for sure.
> I am not thinking of giving up any meds. I feel the depression/anxiety took a while to show itself so if I am "healing" I will let the Mg do it's work over a period of time and after talking with my doc. If he doesn't believe the Mg could be helping I will find a new doc. I am by no means "cured" just have finally taken one step forward without two backwards.
I just want to give you acknowledgment for the intellectual effort you have exerted in trying different strategies. It's by no means a simple process, and you have earned the results you are experiencing. Way to go!
>I have added the vitamin E for the Peyronie's disease and haven't had any adverse reaction which is also good.
Good. Now add some alpha lipoic acid. Walmart carries it at a good price.
> One other thing I have noticed is that before I took the Mg I would often wake up and stew about things and magnify problems at work. I would play things over and over. This has seemed to drop off significantly too. If I stew it is about good things like wanting to build a house and how I would do it. I find this very interesting. The past week I kept waiting for the next morning when I would wake up feeling bad....and it didn't come. I realize that I EXPECTED to feel abnormal instead of just waking up and going about my business.You've been used to feeling that crappy way. This new good feeling comes as a surprise, non? Even good change can feel weird.
Ruminating (the negative kind) can very well be related to sleep quality. If you had had your brain waves recorded, you'd probably find that your brain did not enter into sleep appropriately, retaining activity in parts of the brain which ought to have gone silent. What you've described here, the decrease in rumination, is directly related to your sense that sleep is more restorative. Magnesium is involved in the formation of melatonin, so you may simply have restored your ability to produce melatonin efficiently in the pineal gland.
> I have more energy too. The first couple of mornings I was dragging, but that has now normalized. By Wednesday of last week I actually was motivated at work. I have been getting by since I work for the government, but now I don't mind going to work. It just seems so SIMPLE, it almost seems unreal. I even think clearer and better. Now, I feel able to handle some of my physical problems too.I'd lean towards restorative sleep as the answer here. I'm really glad to hear this is happening to you.
> I have always meant to ask you about taking asprin and if you think it has any benefits over the long term taking the baby dose every day. Biology was such a long time ago and I remember something about aspring inhibiting prostaglandins(sp?). I can't remember what prostaglandins even do anymore.Prostaglandins are ring structures formed by the enzyme COX (cyclo-oxygenase) out of long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids. Depending on which fatty acid gets formed into a loop, different bits are left sticking out. It's the different bits that determine what your body does when exposed to a prostaglandin (they're signalling compounds, kind of like neurotransmitters). Bad prostaglandins are formed from omega-6 fatty acids, and we all get too much omega-6. Taking a 37.5 mg aspirin tablet has been shown to clearly reduce the risk of heart disease and of colon cancer. It probably helps protect the prostate, too. So, yes, a baby aspirin every day is a good thing.
> Larry, be careful out there driving.2 million miles, without a collision or even a ticket.
>Thanks a million for all your help.
You're welcome.
>Ever think about writing a book based on the questions and your input? Who better qualified to help us all, one trained in the field and who has personal experience. I sometimes feel docs have no clue.
I've thought about it, but I'd probably need an editor to keep me focussed.
>Take care
>
> johnjYou too, John. Good luck.
Lar
Posted by noa on March 30, 2003, at 9:20:30
In reply to Re: JLx, Larry Hoover, SLS -- Magnesium, posted by bozeman on March 29, 2003, at 17:18:27
I am going to ask my pdoc about magnesium when I see him next week. He already has me on Chromium picolinate and folic acid (above and beyond what is in my daily multi vitamin/mineral), and though I initiated the fish oil, he agreed with the decision and then recommended I double or triple my fish oil doses since it seemed to be helping. Ie, my pdoc is pro-supplements and keeps up with the literature on it, even though some of the literature is based on very small studies or anecdotal reports (but who cares!).
I started seeing this pdoc last summer. He has a lot of difficulty keep time well,and appointments are almost always late. He is quirky, but he really knows his stuff, and he is collaborative. And I like that he keeps up on lit and suggests some alternative additions to meds, like chromium and the folic acid, etc.
We are working now on seeing if, after a period of time on the increased fish oil, whether I can lower my effexor dose a bit, and later on, possibly lower my serzone dose a bit, too, to reduce some of the negative effects. I don't think either of us envision complete cessation of my meds, however.
So, I'll ask him about the magnesium, too.
Thanks. for the info. I'll try to print out some of the resources to bring to him (although he has usually read a lot on this stuff and sometimes gives me print-outs).
Posted by noa on March 30, 2003, at 9:30:25
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 8:22:38
BTW, here is a link to the USDA nutrient list site. This is for magnesium--foods listed by magnesium content, fwiw. I was just curious, and I thought I'd pass it on to you. You need Adobe Acrobat to read it.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/sr15w304.pdf
The nutrient list is at:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/wt_rank.htmlTo see food nutrient contents by food, search at:
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 9:42:05
In reply to Re: Magnesium content in food, fyi, posted by noa on March 30, 2003, at 9:30:25
> BTW, here is a link to the USDA nutrient list site. This is for magnesium--foods listed by magnesium content, fwiw. I was just curious, and I thought I'd pass it on to you. You need Adobe Acrobat to read it.
>
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/sr15w304.pdf
>
> The nutrient list is at:
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR15/wtrank/wt_rank.html
>
> To see food nutrient contents by food, search at:
>
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.plJust to provide an alternative method of searching the same database, this link does not require Adobe Acrobat. It doesn't give rankings, but it lets you search by food type within particular nutrient categories.
Posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 10:11:14
In reply to Re: Magnesium content in food, fyi, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 9:42:05
Does everyone have to take some probiotics (like live yogurt cultures) while taking magnesium? Eby's site says it's a must.
On a personal note, I like that you can make everything you do (like truck driving) an art. I respect you for putting your all into your work, your posts, your driving. And I've never heard you whine about the hand you've been dealt. You're a true role model.
beardy : )>
Posted by bluedog on March 30, 2003, at 10:21:10
In reply to Re: Magnesium Aspartate? How harmful is it???? » bluedog, posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 7:59:12
> > I thought I was doing the right thing with my magnesium supplements. The particular brand I take contains the following magnesium compounds in each tablet for a total of 73mg elemental magnesium per tablet:-
> >
> > Magnesium orotate 200mg
> > (eqiuv. 13mg magnesium)
> >
> > Magnesium aspartate 200mg
> > (equiv. 13.4mg magnesium)
> >
> > Magnesium amino acid chelate 150mg
> > (equiv. 30mg magnesium)
> >
> > Magnesium phosphate 80mg
> > (equiv. 16.5mg magnesium)
> >
> you may want to take additional tablets of magnesium chloride (cheap and effective) to top up your magnesium intake for the day.
>
> > 2) Should I discontinue taking these tablets because of the magnesium aspartate content (I just bought a new bottle of 100 tablets)?
>
> Answered above.
>
> > 3) What is magnesium amino acid chelate in the context of your explanation in this thread on what the various magnesium compounds mean?
>
> I could probably tell you exactly if I spent a few minutes with a calculator, but it's probably glycine.
>
> > Thanks Larry
> >
> > warm regards
> > bluedog
>
> You're welcome. Hope you're well.
>
> Lar
LarryThankyou for your response to my last questions
Could I trouble you with a couple more questions.
1) When you answered that the magnesium amino acid chelate in the product I take is probably glycine does this mean that it's actually magnesium glycinate and therefore a beneficial form of magnesium?
2) Regarding your advice to top up my magnesium with another form, I can actually get the following tablets very cheaply at my local health food store http://www.optimumhealth.com.au/productpages/product8505.html
I'm just wondering if you took out your calculator whether you would consider this product to be a safe or beneficial form of magnesium?2) I forgot to ask you in my original questions what magnesium orotate is and whether this is also a beneficial or safe form (ie non toxic) form of magnesium?
3) I read somewhere that magnesium orotate is actually the best absorbed form of magnesium. Is this true?
Thanks for your patience once again Larry
regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 30, 2003, at 10:35:03
In reply to what about probiotics? » Larry Hoover, posted by beardedlady on March 30, 2003, at 10:11:14
> Does everyone have to take some probiotics (like live yogurt cultures) while taking magnesium? Eby's site says it's a must.
If you haven't had a broad-spectrum antibiotic recently, and your digestion seems uncomplicated (no bloating, gas, cramps, diarrhea), then the utility of probiotics may be slight. They're safe. They may help. But I'm not convinced they're essential. That's my opinion. I use them occasionally. It's possible they've helped with my IBS, but I'm not sure.
> On a personal note, I like that you can make everything you do (like truck driving) an art. I respect you for putting your all into your work, your posts, your driving. And I've never heard you whine about the hand you've been dealt. You're a true role model.
>
> beardy : )>That was a very sweet thing to say. I'm very touched. Thank you.
Lar
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