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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Aadika on December 30, 2002, at 0:38:58
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » Michael D, posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 22:58:25
Perhaps 'Marinol' would have been a more suitable suggestion... I'm sure John is capable of reading between the lines. LOL
~ Aadika
Posted by Simcha on December 30, 2002, at 3:23:41
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by john7219 on December 27, 2002, at 22:12:52
John,
I'll try to answer your concerns calmly. I'm someone who took Clonazepam for about a year. I took it as you did 1mg/night. I was taking it for a night-time anxiety condition called Bruxism (grinding teath, biting tongue). I've also been an insomniac most of my life. I have Major Depressive Disorder (Unipolar Depression) with possible underlying Dysthymia (Mild Depression).
My current pdoc reiterated why I'm on medication. I tried to become depression-free through therapy and 12-step programs for ten years before I dared to try medication. The only reason I tried medication was that I fell into a Major Depressive Episode that was so profound that I was not eating and I could see no end to it.
This pdoc, along with my own research, convinces me that I have a genetic pre-disposition to depression. Depression and the night-time anxiety disorder are both medical conditions, chemically imbalanced, that require medication.
I am medically dependant on my medications. As a 12-stepper/addict I know the difference between addiction and medical dependence. Using is when I use a stimulus (like a drug) to escape my life problems, numbing myself, so that I don't have to feel a thing. When I've done this I crash into a depression that is even worse than the depression before it so I need to take more and more hits of whatever I'm using in order to remain numb. This is addiction.
Medical dependence is easiest to explain by using the example of a diabetic. A diabetic is medically dependant on insulin in order to regulate his/her blood sugar levels. If a diabetic stops taking insulin the condition progresses until death.
As a person who has Major Depressive Disorder I must take my medication in order to function like a healthy person. I have a mood disorder. It is NOT a spiritual illness, for me it is medical. I am medically dependent on my medication so that I do not die from my condition. Yes, Major Depressive Disorder is FATAL.
Now, the Bruxism, an anxiety disorder, is treated by Neurontin these days. The current pdoc wanted me to switch from Klonopin to Neurontin mainly because Klonopin disrupts sleeping architectures. You may not get enough of the various kinds of sleep in a night's sleep. Since my underlying problem at night is insomnia/Bruxism, which I have had all my life even with ten years of therapy and 12-step programs, he chose a drug that helps me sleep and prevents me from biting my tongue and cheeks at night. Neurontin has been an excellent replacement for Klonopin.
I've read that you are on .25mg/night right now and that if you cease taking it you have great difficulty sleeping. You say that you were diagnosed with GAD eight years ago when you were put on Klonopin. Insomnia IS an anxiety disorder. Not sleeping at night when you discontinue Klonopin is not IN AND OF ITSELF an indication of addiction to Klonopin. It REALLY CAN BE a sign of your anxiety returning to ruin your sleep. Sometimes therapy alone will not cure anxiety. Sometimes there is a medical condition due to a chemical imbalance. I would be careful in using the term addiction to describe your experience.
I have stopped using Klonopin because the pdoc determined that Neurontin would be better for me. I have made the switch successfully. The withdrawal from Klonopin was mostly painless. I was ramping up on Neurontin during my reduction of Klonopin dosage.
If you want to get off of Klonopin for some reason, and you feel it is a valid reason, perhaps you should explore other meds that would help you sleep at night without anxiety. Benzos are good for treating anxiety. There are other meds like Buspar, Celexa, and even Neurontin that are useful in treating anxiety.
I hope you feel better soon.
Simcha
One who has not had difficulty in discontinuing treatment with Klonopin.
> Why is there this distinction between physical and/or psychological dependency and addiction. I am medically dependent to Clonazepam, since when I attempt to discontinue use I experience withdrawl symptoms(ie;anxiety,insomnia,tension,etc) which are intolerable if I wish to continue functioning in society. Now some people claim this is merely my prior condition resurfacing, for which I was initially prescribed this Rx. Tell me now, after eight years have passed since initial dosage, I have changed immensely in my perspective on life, I meditate nightly, exercise regularly, studying to be a machinist, maintain a healthy diet, etc, yet, as some people claim, I am still some sort of weak, anxiety ridden drug addict since I'm unable to kick this drug, as apparently so many of you have with such ease! Give me a break people! Take this drug for as long as I have daily at a .5mg level or higher, and attempt to get off, and you will experience severe withdrawl no question about it! Im not trying to be callous, just stating a fact, so don't trivialize my problem by suggesting you've got it under control.
> I am DEPENDENT therefore I am ADDICTED.
Posted by Simcha on December 30, 2002, at 3:29:24
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!!, posted by john7219 on December 29, 2002, at 19:09:50
John
> What in the world are you talking about? I never claimed to be addicted or abusing cocaine or heroin in any way, shape, or form. I merely said I experimented with cocaine on a few occasions, yet I did not become addicted. End of story. I am however now addicted to Clonazepam. Why don't you think before you post such nonsense!
I know that Dr. Bob has not warned you about being more civil here on Psychobabble. As a poster I would like you to try to be more civil. Please try not to put down other people when posting. I find it offensive and it reduces my sense of safety on this board.
You are welcome to your opinion about Clonazepam. Please respect other posters when expressing your opinions about Clonozepam.
Very Truly Yours,
Simcha
Posted by BlackSheep on December 30, 2002, at 14:16:50
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! » john7219, posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 17:37:01
Scott,
Your excellent post got me pretty choked up. During my meltdown on Christmas, I told my husband that I felt like I had cancer of the soul. I meant no disrespect to those who have cancer, and perhaps that was cavalier of me to say, but the depths and lonliness were so awful, it was the only way I could attempt to define it.
I've been off meds since Nov and don't know whether to go back on them or not. Haven't seen a PDOC since Sept, no therapy since last spring. Seeing these folks just seemed to add to my despair, as one drug after another failed or resulted in intolerable side effects. Also, my PDoc seemed to lack compassion, although I'm sure my expectations were not realistic.
Now, after all kinds of meds, therapy, treatment "centers", it's like, where can one turn for relief?
Posted by gabbix2 on December 30, 2002, at 15:02:39
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!!, posted by BlackSheep on December 30, 2002, at 14:16:50
That was one of the most eloquent writings on depression and the medication I've ever seen.
Thanks.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 30, 2002, at 16:59:12
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!!, posted by utopizen on December 29, 2002, at 17:34:14
> you lied to your doctor
> if you want to go into the Stevie Nicks denial, you've got great company.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't jump to conclusions about them or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, thanks.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
PS: Thanks, Simcha, for helping to promote civility. :-)
Posted by Donna Louise on December 30, 2002, at 17:41:29
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam -- long » john7219, posted by Simcha on December 30, 2002, at 3:23:41
Thanks Simcha for your post. I too am a 12 stepper who tried for 5 years to go it without medication. My therapist finally sent me to the doctor and so it began. I had a hard time accepting that I couldn't "fix" this with a spiritual solution. I have finally accepted that I need an AD to function and for the sake of those around me! Currently I am starting Zoloft, have only been on it for 3 weeks, one week at 75 and I am having some trouble with anxiety. I have zanax prescribed for flying and I have been tempted to take it for this anxiety I am experiencing now. I am so afraid that being an addict if I take it I will not be "sober"! So I am just hanging in there, waiting for the zoloft to work. I imagine I will need more, hopefully 100mg will do the trick. Anyway, thanks for sharing your experience, strength and hope with another recovering addict that needs meds.
Posted by syringachalet on December 30, 2002, at 17:45:50
In reply to Please get a grip!, posted by Guy on December 29, 2002, at 0:30:27
Over the years, I have seen hundreds of people whom their lives have been made better by taking benzos as prescribed by their psych doc. It is this team approach; both the patient and the doc taking an active role in assisting the patient
as functionally independent as long as possible.Like any foreign substance taken into the body, many changes occur as a result. Some are as predicted and the outcome is a posivitve impact on the patients mental outlook and ability to function within their ADLs. It is this balance that is so important.
The success of any theraputic treatment is the use of descretion and teamwork. My experience has been that until the patient himself sees the need or true personal benefit of compliance with the treatment plan, the treatment will fail.
A broken leg will get better without the patients cooperation; not a broken personality or soul. The patients concerns should always be heard and considered even if they can not always be incorporated totally in the plan.
When most patients can truly see what their independence and indiividual level of freedom is worth to them, then they see" whats in it for me" and their chances of success are enhanced.Yes, descrete use of benzos have truly made them very beneficial in many situations. But for longer term use, their use must be arduously monitored by a knowledgeable physician that understands the risks and the benefits of their continued use.
As the physician has probably seen first hand,
as I, that to prescribe them for years and not regularly monitor the risks and the benefits,
is a disservice to his patient and to the soceity who will eventually have to bare the cost of their potential debilitating effects.syringachalet
Posted by FredPotter on December 30, 2002, at 20:23:05
In reply to Re: Please get a grip!, posted by syringachalet on December 30, 2002, at 17:45:50
what debilitating effects are those?
Posted by FredPotter on December 30, 2002, at 20:34:45
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam -- long, posted by Donna Louise on December 30, 2002, at 17:41:29
I expect 12-steps help some people, but I had 5 weeks of it and it made no sense, although I enjoyed the communal living and the remarkable people I met. I found their attitude to benzos was clueless and implausible however.
When I started they were horrified to find me with Xanax on my person. They said that they were like "solid alcohol". When I asked them what they meant they said, "Xanax and alcohol are chemically related". "So are CO and CO2 but their mechanism of action is somewhat different", I thought to myself. They took them off me along with Zopiclone, which they said was also a benzo. "No it's not", I thought. There was also a patient in there who abused Klonopin. What sort of abuse is it that doesn't give you euphoria? This is the only reason I can think of for abusing a drug. I think I know enough about Xanax to know that no amount would give me euphoria.
On another occasion in a hospital setting the Xanax was stopped almost abruptly and I was in a very bad way. Their reasons were "addicive potential" and "paradoxical anxiety". I don't know about the second one, but what does addictive potential mean to someone who has been taking that drug or another from the same family for 35 years, on and off, mostly on?
Fred (still alcohol-free with Xanax prn and definitely not 12-stepping)
Posted by FredPotter on December 30, 2002, at 20:54:56
In reply to It is idiotic benzophobic syndrome!! » worrier, posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 1:49:55
I know the hell very well. I've been taking benzodiazepines on and off for 35 years, but never once have they given the desperately needed relief from anxiety and depression that you mention. I take them because they're all I have and are better than nothing. I used to use alcohol. Now there's a dramatically effective drug for you! But I had to stop as it was making my condition MUCH worse over time.
None of the ADs seem to help, nor Lithium. I've never tried anything illegal, except pot a few times which actually caused a panic attack on two occasions.
So of course I get rattled and defensive when it looks like the only thing that helps is going to be taken off me
Posted by Mr.Scott on December 30, 2002, at 22:00:47
In reply to Re: It is idiotic benzophobic syndrome!! » HIBA, posted by FredPotter on December 30, 2002, at 20:54:56
Posted by worrier on December 30, 2002, at 22:36:44
In reply to Re: It is idiotic benzophobic syndrome!! » HIBA, posted by FredPotter on December 30, 2002, at 20:54:56
>Maybe it's time we all stop and take a deep breath. Maybe John really does have a problem with benzos and shouldn't be taking them. We must all remember that we aren't inside his head. I only hope he isn't trying to tough out his anxiety disorder without help. Maybe it did just go away and now he does have an addiction problem. I'm sure it can happen. I tried bunches of antidepressants for my anxiety/panic disorder feeling that they were somehow safer,better, not addictive drugs for weak people,etc. (Mind you, this was after almost 20 years of no treatment because I thought I should just be able to deal with it.) Finally after ending up in the ER after following my GPs orders to keep increasing my paxil dose and not to take xanax, I got myself to a competent psychiatrist who saw my problem for what it was and prescribed xanax. I was resistent...still take too low a dose to really feel normal because of that drug fear. But I do know that this med has made me decide I probably don't need to die...something that was debatable while on the other meds. I doubt that my panic disorder is going to just magically go away one day...most research seems to indicate that is unlikely...it is a real physiological disorder and for me benzos treat it. The diabetic/insulin analogy is very apt. If I have to take benzos for the rest of my life, so be it. At least I can get up in the morning, go to work, have a conversation, read a book,etc. I don't feel stoned,addicted or like I'm "sleepwalking through life".Just as we should not judge John for his decisions however, he should not judge us for ours. Some of us have fought a lot of fear just to be able to take these meds. We don't need scare tactics to make us doubt what we know is working. I hope John finds something that works for him...I hope we all do. Accepting that you have a problem and need meds is hard.Accepting that you might need them for a long time or forever is even harder. I hope that's not what John is doing, but lets all remember,only he really knows. I'm babbling now, so I'll stop. But lets try to help each other, not judge and scare each other. Good luck to all, worrier.
Posted by syringachalet on December 31, 2002, at 7:52:47
In reply to Re: It is idiotic benzophobic syndrome!!, posted by worrier on December 30, 2002, at 22:36:44
worrier,
You are sound like someone who has finally starting to come to terms with her illness and take control; not the other way around.
You and I both know that we are all going to have days when it seems that nothing is going right or you wonder why you ever got out of bed that day, but just caring enough about yourself to know that the person who knows youre needs best is YOU.
'I have known scores of people who until they acknowledge their mental illness and took an active part in their own treatment and recovery, lived in denial and frustration. They also robbed themselves and those they loved and cared about from the joy of having them in their lives to the fullest.Benzos and any other medication, when prescribed and taken with descretion...knowing the benfits and the risks.. have changed so many peoples
lives that forty years ago they would have have had no life at all.Knowing your personal strengths and limitations while enjoying life in whatever you do is what doing this 'dog and pony show' everyday is all about...
IN SHORT.. DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU
syringachalet
Posted by gabbix2 on December 31, 2002, at 18:01:45
In reply to Thanks! BlackSheep and Gabbix2 (nm), posted by Mr.Scott on December 30, 2002, at 22:00:47
Posted by worrier on January 1, 2003, at 14:52:59
In reply to Re: It is idiotic benzophobic syndrome!!, posted by syringachalet on December 31, 2002, at 7:52:47
>Thanks for your reply. It's a new year...maybe it will be better than last year. I think I am finally coming to grips with my problem, recognizing it for what it is and that it's not my fault or some huge weakness. It is my hope that we can all find some measure of peace and comfort, whatever it takes. There is a buddhist compassion prayer that I find very helpful (I'm not a buddhist,but I don't think it matters).I pray it for myself and for everyone else out there often. " May I be safe.May I be thoroughly safe.May I have physical ease.May I have mental ease.May I have comfort and well-being."That is my wish for us all in this new year. By the way, that came from a great book you might want to read called "Healing Lazarus" by Lewis Richmond. Regards, Worrier.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 2, 2003, at 0:19:31
In reply to Re: It is idiotic benzophobic syndrome!! » syringachalet, posted by worrier on January 1, 2003, at 14:52:59
> By the way, that came from a great book you might want to read called "Healing Lazarus" by Lewis Richmond.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
But I don't mean to be pushy. Did you deliberately not use it to link to Amazon? If so, I'd be interested in why, over at Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by worrier on January 2, 2003, at 20:24:30
In reply to Re: double double quotes » worrier, posted by Dr. Bob on January 2, 2003, at 0:19:31
Dr. Bob, no reason, just wasn't aware of the feature. Thanks, Worrier.
Posted by micky301 on January 2, 2003, at 23:57:23
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!!, posted by BlackSheep on December 30, 2002, at 14:16:50
I lost my living self do to a Benzodiazepine.
HOW DARE some of you compare a benzo to insulin. I doubt very many people have died of panic attacks, even though you feel like you can, but insulin is Physically needed, not klonopin. I have lost my job, become agoraphobic, and very depressed after two weeks of Xanax use. I was in Hell until I had to go back to a benzo, which was K. Now im addicted to Klonopin because my body just does not know how to function anymore without a Benzo. I wish I was never given this drug. Some of you got off the drug smoothly , good for you. Guess what, thats not the norm. Almost all of the doctors that I talked to at the Emergency Room I went to (walking from my house on my knees practically) said this is something they see everyday.
Posted by Mr.Scott on January 3, 2003, at 0:58:36
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by micky301 on January 2, 2003, at 23:57:23
By definition ER doctors only see the worst case scenarios which account for 1% of benzo users I'd guess.
Anyways...you're right... benzo's aren't the answer...We all know that I think. Not my answer, but a decent band aid until we are graced with "the answer". But where is this answer?
Is it praying to God? Alcohol? Effexor XR at exactly 172.4 mg every 16.5 hours?
Do you know? Until then I see few alternatives.
Posted by viridis on January 3, 2003, at 1:16:39
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by micky301 on January 2, 2003, at 23:57:23
People compare benzos to insulin because both can cause medical dependency and should not be stopped suddenly, due to the physiological adjustment that has occurred as a result of of their use. It's true that people don't usually die from panic attacks, but for some with severe anxiety disorders, life is hardly worth living -- hence the high suicide rate in this group. Add to this the long-term health consequences of relentless anxiety, and use of benzos such as Klonopin is certainly justified for some from a purely medical perspective.
Some people have trouble getting off them, but most don't if they discontinue use gradually. And some people need them for life (in several senses -- as in long-term use, as in being able to live normally, and as in making the decision to keep living at all).
I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience with benzos, but the weight of evidence suggests that this is the exception (although I'm sure very real for you) rather than the norm.
Posted by syringachalet on January 3, 2003, at 11:24:39
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER » micky301, posted by viridis on January 3, 2003, at 1:16:39
It seems that a lot of people here have had
many different experiences with the use of benzodiazepines.When I talk with my patients to whom have had a benzo or any other medication prescribed for them by either their reg MD or their PDOC, I ask them,
What do YOU expect these meds to do??
Will taking the meds make your family or friends nicer to you?
Do you think it is a 'magic bullet' that can 'fix' whatever is causing frustration or sadness in your life?
Do you think that denial or pretending the problem doesnt exist will make it go away?If you think so, you are setting
yourself to fail.Meds are a simply tools to help you help
yourself. No different than therapy, reading
self-help books, or hyponosis...BOTTOM LINE = only YOU can heal YOU....
What I tell my patients is that these 'tools' are there to help the emotional part of your brain slow down and your computer part of your brain catch up. With both parts of your brain working at the same slower speed...and maybe you can make some sense of your life.
I have seen hundreds of people whose lives were made better by taking the benzos, often in combo with othersmeds and thearpy.
Maybe they will never be what they once thought they could aspite to be.
Maybe they wont be exactly their parents hoped they would be. But they are still alive and sharing their lives with those whom care about them.
And most have a better grip on what is
realistic for them and their futures.Mental illness is a chronic illness and yes, it is similar to diabetes. You live with it 24/7.
Its there...in your face...and it isnt going away
no matter how much you wish it would.
so I guess what we all have to decide is...Who is going to be in control.. you or your illness???
With that control comes responsiblity and accountability for ones actions.
Having control over your illness and the
freedoms to do some of those things in your
life that are important have to be balanced
with responsible behaviors that do no harm
to you or others.When I have to help with a psych unit admission, the patient asks me, "When am I getting out of this place?" I tell them when you can prove to the doc that you can handle BOTH the freedom and the responsibility of your own actions/behaviors.
In a sense, I am trying to empower them to help them help heal themselves..to take back that control/responsibility..and function independently as much as their capacitites and safety will allow.
In summary, benzos dont do anything more than
what their chemical components allow them to.When someone is ready to start the job of
taking back the control of his life, the meds will be in the 'tool box'...just dont use the pliers as a hammer... they dont like that much and dont work worth a damm...
syringachalet
Posted by johnj on January 3, 2003, at 12:06:39
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by syringachalet on January 3, 2003, at 11:24:39
"Meds are a simply tools to help you help
yourself. No different than therapy, reading
self-help books, or hyponosis..."Sorry to disagree, but I don't know what profession you are in exactly, but I can guess you have never had a panic attack or a major depressive episode by your statements. All the empowering yourself talk will not help if your brain chemistry, assuming that is what is happening, is out of whack. When I was in the depths, which came crashing like a dark wave, it happened it 2 two days. One day I was making dinner for my girlfriend and two nights later I was having a panic attack and free falling into depression.
Therapy can serve to bring up emotional times in our lives that may or may NOT have anything to do with the illness. In some cases, abuse, PTSD, etc., there might be an emotional trigger, but many times it comes as thief in the night that steals ones soul. IMHO, No therapist or doctor can understand the pain, unless they have been there. Therapy can talk TOO much in my opinion, and pdoctors can just sit back and prescribe and say "see how this works, Next" The brain is a wonderful organ, but so little is known so we treat the best we can.
Posted by syringachalet on January 3, 2003, at 12:31:40
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER » syringachalet, posted by johnj on January 3, 2003, at 12:06:39
dear johnj,
Perhaps you havent had the time or the interest to read any of my past postings.
If you had you would know that I HAVE been
on benzodaizepines myself(in the past).
I went through 13 ECT treatments and was hosptialized for 13 months in a state owned
psych hospital.
I have also busted my ass to heal myself
enough to be able to earn a four year
nursing degree and a two
year degree in behavioral science.
I also had to prove to my local governemntal
board of nursing that I had healed myself
enough to be a competent registered nurse
for the past 20 years....I think you should do your homework before
you judge others.....syringachalet
Posted by ZeeZee on January 3, 2003, at 13:07:18
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES ARE NOT THE ANSWER, posted by syringachalet on January 3, 2003, at 12:31:40
Syringachalet,
Although I'm sure your post that johnj objected to was well intended, your lack of self disclosure in that post (and others) makes me feel "talked down to".
Had you personalized your message he, I and possibly others would have been able to better relate to your message.Just some feedback to be helpful.
Regards,
ZeeZee
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