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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 30 to 54 of 119. Go back in thread:
Posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 1:34:11
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » john7219, posted by Mr.Scott on December 27, 2002, at 1:38:59
Dear Mr. Scott,
Why should a person quit clonazepam if it is working for him, only to substitute it with another hard antidepressant (like doxepin as some recommend)...? Do you think it is a fair trade to substitute a benzo with an antidepressant ?
HIBA
Posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 1:49:55
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » Mr Cushing, posted by worrier on December 28, 2002, at 19:46:20
Dear worrier,
A person who is having severe anxiety will have a very hard time. I know from my own experience he will be living a hellish life with insomnia, tremors, obsessive worries, panic attacks,....Often these will lead him to paranoia or severe depression. And still if he refuses benzodiazepines which will almost instantly relieve him out of this hell, he is suffering from an untreatable condition called "IDIOTIC BENZOPHOBIC SYNDROME".
HIBA
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 29, 2002, at 12:17:09
In reply to It is idiotic benzophobic syndrome!! » worrier, posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 1:49:55
> you can sure tell when somebody has never had first hand experience of Cocaine or Heroin addiction. Comparing the withdrawal of Clonazepam to Cocaine or Heroin... that's what creates a fool.
>
> Mr Cushing> It seems to me that you are parroting slogans from the anti-benzo fanatics.
>
> Guy> still if he refuses benzodiazepines which will almost instantly relieve him out of this hell, he is suffering from an untreatable condition called "IDIOTIC BENZOPHOBIC SYNDROME".
>
> HIBAPlease don't jump to conclusions about the experiences of others or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down. Even if they decline medications that might be helpful. Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 14:43:54
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » Mr.Scott, posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 1:34:11
In my opinion No...
I think it would be a mistake if the benzo works to substitute an antidepressant. However, temporary substitution for a couple weeks with something anxiolytic to help ease the rebound anxiety would be fine in my opinion if a person wants to see if the still really need the benzo. If after a few weeks things aren't right, I'd just take the benzo.
Posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 14:49:03
In reply to Please get a grip!, posted by Guy on December 29, 2002, at 0:30:27
Are you taking anything else besides the clon?
Scott
Posted by BrittPark on December 29, 2002, at 17:06:34
In reply to BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! (nm), posted by john7219 on December 28, 2002, at 23:53:15
I'm sure benzos have destroyed some lives. However, and I'm just guessing, far more people's lives have been destroyed for lack of an effective anxiolytic.
Britt
Posted by utopizen on December 29, 2002, at 17:34:14
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! » john7219, posted by BrittPark on December 29, 2002, at 17:06:34
John,
Don't you think that cocaine and heroin you became addicted to *might* have had something to do with your life's destruction, perhaps more so than the benzos you lied to your doctor over to get, and now blame doctors over for giving them to you? What about the drug dealers who gave you coke and heroin? They're off the slate, but the doctors who couldn't read through your lies aren't?
Yeah, I'm guessing the coke and heroin *might* have had something to do it, but if you want to go into the Stevie Nicks denial, you've got great company.
Posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 17:37:01
In reply to BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! (nm), posted by john7219 on December 28, 2002, at 23:53:15
John,
I know many instances have ocurred where psychiatric drugs in general have messed up lives, it's a terribly neglected and impreceise science. Sometimes they just don't work, just cause side effects, and yet the illness continues. But far far more often I think psychiatric illness ruins lives. Until we have better tools to treat these illnesses, benzodiazepines remain one of the better tools we have in my opinion. They are unrivaled for quick relief of terrible symptoms, and when other treatments fail they can often bring some semblance of relief to people for longer periods of time. There's no panacea out there for those of us who wake up every morning staring into the abyss. In exchange for the ability to have relationships or some productivity or the escape from horrible overwhelming emotions, we often have to make sacrifices. Be it sexual functioning, weight gain, or a illness induced dependence, there is no right way to navigate psychiatric illness and certainly no way to do it unscathed.
I have over the years gone back and forth on the issues. I have studied the literature on both sides of the argument for benzodiazepine use as well as all psychiatric drug use like a prophet seeking to interpret religious scrolls. You will not find the answer in the generalist writings of those who believe in 'either or' philosophies. What may work for you will almost certainly cause problems for another.
I would, having both experience and understanding suggest not starting patients out with benzodiazepines 'if something clearly better or more appropriate exists.' That said who really cares what gets you through the night so long as you can get through it with a little dignity and peace of mind.
This board (I think) does not consist of too many people who have successfully gone to a general practitioner for Celexa or what have you and lucked out with a simple solution. Those people are blessed. I think the people on this board often times have suffered long and hard. They take what they can get and have tremendous strength to face what each day brings.
If you are having uncertainty about whether or not you are an appropriate candidate for long-term benzodiazepine therapy, that is fine. I think it's good to experiment and to find your own truth. But there is no good in making sweeping statements that carry only half truths.
I do hope you work out your conflict.
Scott
Posted by Guy on December 29, 2002, at 18:23:27
In reply to Re: Please get a grip! » Guy, posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 14:49:03
Mr. Scott, I'm taking only clonazapam (.75 mg) at this point. My shrink prescribed remeron to go with it, but that gave me very scary and vivid dreams every night, so I stopped. I'm feeling the best I've ever felt for the past seven years. One of the keys is to accept the situation, get my sleep,and just forget about all the benzo hype. AD's generally make me feel very ill...almost like the flu combined with a bad hangover.
Posted by john7219 on December 29, 2002, at 19:09:50
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!!, posted by utopizen on December 29, 2002, at 17:34:14
What in the world are you talking about? I never claimed to be addicted or abusing cocaine or heroin in any way, shape, or form. I merely said I experimented with cocaine on a few occasions, yet I did not become addicted. End of story. I am however now addicted to Clonazepam. Why don't you think before you post such nonsense!
Posted by ZeeZee on December 29, 2002, at 19:15:42
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! » john7219, posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 17:37:01
Posted by Michael D on December 29, 2002, at 21:19:03
In reply to The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by john7219 on December 25, 2002, at 23:48:30
> Eight years and counting people, with the slightest decrease in my dosage resulting in a sleeplesness night filled with feelings of hell related symptoms.
You may want to try smoking marijuana to get off the clonazepam. It's known to help with withdrawal of many drugs. It might also help you sleep.
Michael D
> Any fool on this board who claims clonazepam is not addictive, since it has a relatively long half life, should return their pharmacology degree which was mailed to them. Valium has a long half life, Clonazepam does NOT! This stuff is INCREDIBLY ADDICTIVE!!!!!
Posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 22:58:25
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by Michael D on December 29, 2002, at 21:19:03
Dr. Bob,Is it allowed to encourage such illegal drug use in this forum ?
HIBA
Posted by oracle on December 29, 2002, at 23:10:43
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!!, posted by john7219 on December 29, 2002, at 19:09:50
Posted by Aadika on December 30, 2002, at 0:34:43
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! » john7219, posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 17:37:01
Posted by Aadika on December 30, 2002, at 0:38:58
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » Michael D, posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 22:58:25
Perhaps 'Marinol' would have been a more suitable suggestion... I'm sure John is capable of reading between the lines. LOL
~ Aadika
Posted by Simcha on December 30, 2002, at 3:23:41
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by john7219 on December 27, 2002, at 22:12:52
John,
I'll try to answer your concerns calmly. I'm someone who took Clonazepam for about a year. I took it as you did 1mg/night. I was taking it for a night-time anxiety condition called Bruxism (grinding teath, biting tongue). I've also been an insomniac most of my life. I have Major Depressive Disorder (Unipolar Depression) with possible underlying Dysthymia (Mild Depression).
My current pdoc reiterated why I'm on medication. I tried to become depression-free through therapy and 12-step programs for ten years before I dared to try medication. The only reason I tried medication was that I fell into a Major Depressive Episode that was so profound that I was not eating and I could see no end to it.
This pdoc, along with my own research, convinces me that I have a genetic pre-disposition to depression. Depression and the night-time anxiety disorder are both medical conditions, chemically imbalanced, that require medication.
I am medically dependant on my medications. As a 12-stepper/addict I know the difference between addiction and medical dependence. Using is when I use a stimulus (like a drug) to escape my life problems, numbing myself, so that I don't have to feel a thing. When I've done this I crash into a depression that is even worse than the depression before it so I need to take more and more hits of whatever I'm using in order to remain numb. This is addiction.
Medical dependence is easiest to explain by using the example of a diabetic. A diabetic is medically dependant on insulin in order to regulate his/her blood sugar levels. If a diabetic stops taking insulin the condition progresses until death.
As a person who has Major Depressive Disorder I must take my medication in order to function like a healthy person. I have a mood disorder. It is NOT a spiritual illness, for me it is medical. I am medically dependent on my medication so that I do not die from my condition. Yes, Major Depressive Disorder is FATAL.
Now, the Bruxism, an anxiety disorder, is treated by Neurontin these days. The current pdoc wanted me to switch from Klonopin to Neurontin mainly because Klonopin disrupts sleeping architectures. You may not get enough of the various kinds of sleep in a night's sleep. Since my underlying problem at night is insomnia/Bruxism, which I have had all my life even with ten years of therapy and 12-step programs, he chose a drug that helps me sleep and prevents me from biting my tongue and cheeks at night. Neurontin has been an excellent replacement for Klonopin.
I've read that you are on .25mg/night right now and that if you cease taking it you have great difficulty sleeping. You say that you were diagnosed with GAD eight years ago when you were put on Klonopin. Insomnia IS an anxiety disorder. Not sleeping at night when you discontinue Klonopin is not IN AND OF ITSELF an indication of addiction to Klonopin. It REALLY CAN BE a sign of your anxiety returning to ruin your sleep. Sometimes therapy alone will not cure anxiety. Sometimes there is a medical condition due to a chemical imbalance. I would be careful in using the term addiction to describe your experience.
I have stopped using Klonopin because the pdoc determined that Neurontin would be better for me. I have made the switch successfully. The withdrawal from Klonopin was mostly painless. I was ramping up on Neurontin during my reduction of Klonopin dosage.
If you want to get off of Klonopin for some reason, and you feel it is a valid reason, perhaps you should explore other meds that would help you sleep at night without anxiety. Benzos are good for treating anxiety. There are other meds like Buspar, Celexa, and even Neurontin that are useful in treating anxiety.
I hope you feel better soon.
Simcha
One who has not had difficulty in discontinuing treatment with Klonopin.
> Why is there this distinction between physical and/or psychological dependency and addiction. I am medically dependent to Clonazepam, since when I attempt to discontinue use I experience withdrawl symptoms(ie;anxiety,insomnia,tension,etc) which are intolerable if I wish to continue functioning in society. Now some people claim this is merely my prior condition resurfacing, for which I was initially prescribed this Rx. Tell me now, after eight years have passed since initial dosage, I have changed immensely in my perspective on life, I meditate nightly, exercise regularly, studying to be a machinist, maintain a healthy diet, etc, yet, as some people claim, I am still some sort of weak, anxiety ridden drug addict since I'm unable to kick this drug, as apparently so many of you have with such ease! Give me a break people! Take this drug for as long as I have daily at a .5mg level or higher, and attempt to get off, and you will experience severe withdrawl no question about it! Im not trying to be callous, just stating a fact, so don't trivialize my problem by suggesting you've got it under control.
> I am DEPENDENT therefore I am ADDICTED.
Posted by Simcha on December 30, 2002, at 3:29:24
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!!, posted by john7219 on December 29, 2002, at 19:09:50
John
> What in the world are you talking about? I never claimed to be addicted or abusing cocaine or heroin in any way, shape, or form. I merely said I experimented with cocaine on a few occasions, yet I did not become addicted. End of story. I am however now addicted to Clonazepam. Why don't you think before you post such nonsense!
I know that Dr. Bob has not warned you about being more civil here on Psychobabble. As a poster I would like you to try to be more civil. Please try not to put down other people when posting. I find it offensive and it reduces my sense of safety on this board.
You are welcome to your opinion about Clonazepam. Please respect other posters when expressing your opinions about Clonozepam.
Very Truly Yours,
Simcha
Posted by BlackSheep on December 30, 2002, at 14:16:50
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! » john7219, posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 17:37:01
Scott,
Your excellent post got me pretty choked up. During my meltdown on Christmas, I told my husband that I felt like I had cancer of the soul. I meant no disrespect to those who have cancer, and perhaps that was cavalier of me to say, but the depths and lonliness were so awful, it was the only way I could attempt to define it.
I've been off meds since Nov and don't know whether to go back on them or not. Haven't seen a PDOC since Sept, no therapy since last spring. Seeing these folks just seemed to add to my despair, as one drug after another failed or resulted in intolerable side effects. Also, my PDoc seemed to lack compassion, although I'm sure my expectations were not realistic.
Now, after all kinds of meds, therapy, treatment "centers", it's like, where can one turn for relief?
Posted by gabbix2 on December 30, 2002, at 15:02:39
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!!, posted by BlackSheep on December 30, 2002, at 14:16:50
That was one of the most eloquent writings on depression and the medication I've ever seen.
Thanks.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 30, 2002, at 16:59:12
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!!, posted by utopizen on December 29, 2002, at 17:34:14
> you lied to your doctor
> if you want to go into the Stevie Nicks denial, you've got great company.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't jump to conclusions about them or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, thanks.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
PS: Thanks, Simcha, for helping to promote civility. :-)
Posted by Donna Louise on December 30, 2002, at 17:41:29
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam -- long » john7219, posted by Simcha on December 30, 2002, at 3:23:41
Thanks Simcha for your post. I too am a 12 stepper who tried for 5 years to go it without medication. My therapist finally sent me to the doctor and so it began. I had a hard time accepting that I couldn't "fix" this with a spiritual solution. I have finally accepted that I need an AD to function and for the sake of those around me! Currently I am starting Zoloft, have only been on it for 3 weeks, one week at 75 and I am having some trouble with anxiety. I have zanax prescribed for flying and I have been tempted to take it for this anxiety I am experiencing now. I am so afraid that being an addict if I take it I will not be "sober"! So I am just hanging in there, waiting for the zoloft to work. I imagine I will need more, hopefully 100mg will do the trick. Anyway, thanks for sharing your experience, strength and hope with another recovering addict that needs meds.
Posted by syringachalet on December 30, 2002, at 17:45:50
In reply to Please get a grip!, posted by Guy on December 29, 2002, at 0:30:27
Over the years, I have seen hundreds of people whom their lives have been made better by taking benzos as prescribed by their psych doc. It is this team approach; both the patient and the doc taking an active role in assisting the patient
as functionally independent as long as possible.Like any foreign substance taken into the body, many changes occur as a result. Some are as predicted and the outcome is a posivitve impact on the patients mental outlook and ability to function within their ADLs. It is this balance that is so important.
The success of any theraputic treatment is the use of descretion and teamwork. My experience has been that until the patient himself sees the need or true personal benefit of compliance with the treatment plan, the treatment will fail.
A broken leg will get better without the patients cooperation; not a broken personality or soul. The patients concerns should always be heard and considered even if they can not always be incorporated totally in the plan.
When most patients can truly see what their independence and indiividual level of freedom is worth to them, then they see" whats in it for me" and their chances of success are enhanced.Yes, descrete use of benzos have truly made them very beneficial in many situations. But for longer term use, their use must be arduously monitored by a knowledgeable physician that understands the risks and the benefits of their continued use.
As the physician has probably seen first hand,
as I, that to prescribe them for years and not regularly monitor the risks and the benefits,
is a disservice to his patient and to the soceity who will eventually have to bare the cost of their potential debilitating effects.syringachalet
Posted by FredPotter on December 30, 2002, at 20:23:05
In reply to Re: Please get a grip!, posted by syringachalet on December 30, 2002, at 17:45:50
what debilitating effects are those?
Posted by FredPotter on December 30, 2002, at 20:34:45
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam -- long, posted by Donna Louise on December 30, 2002, at 17:41:29
I expect 12-steps help some people, but I had 5 weeks of it and it made no sense, although I enjoyed the communal living and the remarkable people I met. I found their attitude to benzos was clueless and implausible however.
When I started they were horrified to find me with Xanax on my person. They said that they were like "solid alcohol". When I asked them what they meant they said, "Xanax and alcohol are chemically related". "So are CO and CO2 but their mechanism of action is somewhat different", I thought to myself. They took them off me along with Zopiclone, which they said was also a benzo. "No it's not", I thought. There was also a patient in there who abused Klonopin. What sort of abuse is it that doesn't give you euphoria? This is the only reason I can think of for abusing a drug. I think I know enough about Xanax to know that no amount would give me euphoria.
On another occasion in a hospital setting the Xanax was stopped almost abruptly and I was in a very bad way. Their reasons were "addicive potential" and "paradoxical anxiety". I don't know about the second one, but what does addictive potential mean to someone who has been taking that drug or another from the same family for 35 years, on and off, mostly on?
Fred (still alcohol-free with Xanax prn and definitely not 12-stepping)
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