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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 119. Go back in thread:
Posted by Mr Cushing on December 28, 2002, at 15:13:45
In reply to The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by john7219 on December 25, 2002, at 23:48:30
"I believe I could go through a year long combined cocaine and heroin binge, while still taking my usual nightly dose of clonazepam of course, walk away from the narcotics, and still be at the pharmacist counter the next day awaiting the refill of my beloved/wretched clonazepam RX!"LOL... you can sure tell when somebody has never had first hand experience of Cocaine or Heroin addiction. Comparing the withdrawal of Clonazepam to Cocaine or Heroin... that's what creates a fool.
I've been taking 1mg of Clonazepam every night now for about 4-5 years, with a period about half way through where I stopped cold turkey for about 4 months.
The withdrawal from this medication was VERY easy to do compared to some of the other drugs that I've had to come off of in my lifetime.
Any of the SSRIs are Hell in withdrawal compared to Clonazepam. And surely, comparing the withdrawals of cocaine to the withdrawals of Clonazepam is like comparing good to evil.
I still use Clonazepam to this day because it is the one drug that I've tried that has very few major side effects and that helps rid me of my anxiety/panic attacks and allows me to sleep a good night's sleep. Try going through about 11 years of Insomnia and then come and tell me how evil this medication is lol...
Posted by john7219 on December 28, 2002, at 18:04:49
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by Mr Cushing on December 28, 2002, at 15:13:45
I have experimented on enough occasions with cocaine and crack to have developed an addiction, like so many other unfortunate people. I had no desire to return to the drug to merely get high, I have more restraint than that. On the other hand, I NEED clonazepam to merely function in everyday life, not to get high. There have been reports that Benzodiazepines have a more serious withdrawl issue surrounding them than heroin!
I'd be careful what you say about it, since you are currently using them on a regular basis.
Posted by worrier on December 28, 2002, at 19:46:20
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » Mr Cushing, posted by john7219 on December 28, 2002, at 18:04:49
> I have experimented on enough occasions with cocaine and crack to have developed an addiction, like so many other unfortunate people. I had no desire to return to the drug to merely get high, I have more restraint than that. On the other hand, I NEED clonazepam to merely function in everyday life, not to get high. There have been reports that Benzodiazepines have a more serious withdrawl issue surrounding them than heroin!
> I'd be careful what you say about it, since you are currently using them on a regular basis.>I think someone already said this, but has it occurred to you that you need the clonazepam because it is successfully treating your disorder? You said you don't want/need it to get high, just to function normally. So, the problem is what??? I had terrible benzophobia (fear of addiction, viewing myself as weak for needing a drug, etc.). But,as my psychiatrist once asked,"If your dr. told you you had high blood pressure and needed to take a med for it , what would you do?" The answer was obvious. Anxiety/panic disorder is real...why resist the most effective treatment?
Posted by Aadika on December 28, 2002, at 20:03:34
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » Mr Cushing, posted by worrier on December 28, 2002, at 19:46:20
Posted by john7219 on December 28, 2002, at 21:23:59
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » Mr Cushing, posted by worrier on December 28, 2002, at 19:46:20
I needed it initially about eight years ago, and for probably a few years afterwards to get my head screwed on straight. I don't need it now however, yet I am having great difficulty discontinuing it, on account of it being, ah that's right, ADDICTIVE! What don't you people understand?
Posted by Alan on December 28, 2002, at 21:49:02
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by john7219 on December 28, 2002, at 21:23:59
> I needed it initially about eight years ago, and for probably a few years afterwards to get my head screwed on straight. I don't need it now however, yet I am having great difficulty discontinuing it, on account of it being, ah that's right, ADDICTIVE! What don't you people understand?
==============================================Just being the devils advocate. How do know that you do not need it (in the medical sense of the word)?
Or is it perhaps that you are, as we all are from time to time, wrestling with acceptance of the underlying disorder, not acceptance of the medication itself? That may be what the conflict is about? I would like to be off of my medication more than anything but I can not. That constitutes medical dependency to me, not addiction in the strict sense.
The differentiation for my state of mind is crucial if I am able to make any meaningful decisions about being medicated or not. At least that is the way it seems to me. Perhaps I'm wrong in your case.
Maybe you've read this already. I know it has helped me and others:
http://panicdisorder.about.com/library/weekly/aa031997.htm
Best to you,
Alan
Posted by Aadika on December 28, 2002, at 22:06:59
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by john7219 on December 28, 2002, at 21:23:59
Are you abusing your medication? Are there negative consequences of taking clonazepam that you forsake in order to get your daily "fix"? Do you compulsively seek out the drug, and continually require increasing dosages? Is your MEDICAL DEPENDENCY on this medication causing significant stress to your social, family, and work life? If not, then you, my friend, are NOT addicted. IMHO, you probably still need this medication every bit as much as a chronic insulin-dependent diabetic needs his insulin.
Posted by Alan on December 28, 2002, at 22:41:33
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » john7219, posted by Aadika on December 28, 2002, at 22:06:59
The vast majority of competently diagnosed, perscribed, and managed patients undergoing bzd therapy are helped far more than they are hurt. That's the basic criteria on which the manipulation of bodily systems are determined to have an acceptable cost/benefit ratio.
The term "medical dependency" refers to a situation in which the drug continues to exert a beneficial or even indispensable effect, but there is an acknowledgement that the user is not functional without the drug and cannot abruptly stop taking it.
Tolerance is not required for medical dependency, but it may occur. Most often it occurs to some extent in early use and then the effect of the drgug stabilizes. If tolerance were to continue developing indefinitely, any beneficial effect would rather quickly be outweighed by toxicity. Undoubtedly there are situations where this has happened with many types of drugs, not merely psychotropics, but all it really proves is that there are careless and incompetent doctors just as there are careless and incompetent practitioners of every profession, trade, vocation, etc. It doesn't prove anything special about psychotropics.
The distinctions exist because they reflect the way reality naturally sorts into groups of similar experiences. They're not hard to understand. They're simply inconvenient to certain points of view.
Alan
Posted by john7219 on December 28, 2002, at 23:53:15
In reply to The Truth About Medical Dependency, posted by Alan on December 28, 2002, at 22:41:33
Posted by Guy on December 29, 2002, at 0:30:27
In reply to BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! (nm), posted by john7219 on December 28, 2002, at 23:53:15
John, most of the people who frequent this board have severe mood disorders. There is clinical evidence to show that what you are saying is false. It seems to me that you are parroting slogans from the anti-benzo fanatics. People who are already suffering from extreme anxiety do not need you here to spread more unfounded panic. If you want to discuss your own experiences, fine, but please do not presume to speak for everyone else. I think your ranting is actually doing more harm than good...you may indeed cause some people to continue to suffer needlessly by scaring them away from medications that help. I've been on more than 10 AD's with terrible results, and I even tried 18 months totally med free while I focused on acupuncture, meditation, relaxation, hypnotism, hot saunas, etc, etc. After several trips to the ER and constant thoughts of suicide, I have finally found some relief in clonazepam. Even if it eventually poops out, that is a chance I am willing to take. Just be very careful with your words--they can be really dangerous.
Posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 1:34:11
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » john7219, posted by Mr.Scott on December 27, 2002, at 1:38:59
Dear Mr. Scott,
Why should a person quit clonazepam if it is working for him, only to substitute it with another hard antidepressant (like doxepin as some recommend)...? Do you think it is a fair trade to substitute a benzo with an antidepressant ?
HIBA
Posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 1:49:55
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » Mr Cushing, posted by worrier on December 28, 2002, at 19:46:20
Dear worrier,
A person who is having severe anxiety will have a very hard time. I know from my own experience he will be living a hellish life with insomnia, tremors, obsessive worries, panic attacks,....Often these will lead him to paranoia or severe depression. And still if he refuses benzodiazepines which will almost instantly relieve him out of this hell, he is suffering from an untreatable condition called "IDIOTIC BENZOPHOBIC SYNDROME".
HIBA
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 29, 2002, at 12:17:09
In reply to It is idiotic benzophobic syndrome!! » worrier, posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 1:49:55
> you can sure tell when somebody has never had first hand experience of Cocaine or Heroin addiction. Comparing the withdrawal of Clonazepam to Cocaine or Heroin... that's what creates a fool.
>
> Mr Cushing> It seems to me that you are parroting slogans from the anti-benzo fanatics.
>
> Guy> still if he refuses benzodiazepines which will almost instantly relieve him out of this hell, he is suffering from an untreatable condition called "IDIOTIC BENZOPHOBIC SYNDROME".
>
> HIBAPlease don't jump to conclusions about the experiences of others or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down. Even if they decline medications that might be helpful. Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 14:43:54
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam » Mr.Scott, posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 1:34:11
In my opinion No...
I think it would be a mistake if the benzo works to substitute an antidepressant. However, temporary substitution for a couple weeks with something anxiolytic to help ease the rebound anxiety would be fine in my opinion if a person wants to see if the still really need the benzo. If after a few weeks things aren't right, I'd just take the benzo.
Posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 14:49:03
In reply to Please get a grip!, posted by Guy on December 29, 2002, at 0:30:27
Are you taking anything else besides the clon?
Scott
Posted by BrittPark on December 29, 2002, at 17:06:34
In reply to BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! (nm), posted by john7219 on December 28, 2002, at 23:53:15
I'm sure benzos have destroyed some lives. However, and I'm just guessing, far more people's lives have been destroyed for lack of an effective anxiolytic.
Britt
Posted by utopizen on December 29, 2002, at 17:34:14
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! » john7219, posted by BrittPark on December 29, 2002, at 17:06:34
John,
Don't you think that cocaine and heroin you became addicted to *might* have had something to do with your life's destruction, perhaps more so than the benzos you lied to your doctor over to get, and now blame doctors over for giving them to you? What about the drug dealers who gave you coke and heroin? They're off the slate, but the doctors who couldn't read through your lies aren't?
Yeah, I'm guessing the coke and heroin *might* have had something to do it, but if you want to go into the Stevie Nicks denial, you've got great company.
Posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 17:37:01
In reply to BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! (nm), posted by john7219 on December 28, 2002, at 23:53:15
John,
I know many instances have ocurred where psychiatric drugs in general have messed up lives, it's a terribly neglected and impreceise science. Sometimes they just don't work, just cause side effects, and yet the illness continues. But far far more often I think psychiatric illness ruins lives. Until we have better tools to treat these illnesses, benzodiazepines remain one of the better tools we have in my opinion. They are unrivaled for quick relief of terrible symptoms, and when other treatments fail they can often bring some semblance of relief to people for longer periods of time. There's no panacea out there for those of us who wake up every morning staring into the abyss. In exchange for the ability to have relationships or some productivity or the escape from horrible overwhelming emotions, we often have to make sacrifices. Be it sexual functioning, weight gain, or a illness induced dependence, there is no right way to navigate psychiatric illness and certainly no way to do it unscathed.
I have over the years gone back and forth on the issues. I have studied the literature on both sides of the argument for benzodiazepine use as well as all psychiatric drug use like a prophet seeking to interpret religious scrolls. You will not find the answer in the generalist writings of those who believe in 'either or' philosophies. What may work for you will almost certainly cause problems for another.
I would, having both experience and understanding suggest not starting patients out with benzodiazepines 'if something clearly better or more appropriate exists.' That said who really cares what gets you through the night so long as you can get through it with a little dignity and peace of mind.
This board (I think) does not consist of too many people who have successfully gone to a general practitioner for Celexa or what have you and lucked out with a simple solution. Those people are blessed. I think the people on this board often times have suffered long and hard. They take what they can get and have tremendous strength to face what each day brings.
If you are having uncertainty about whether or not you are an appropriate candidate for long-term benzodiazepine therapy, that is fine. I think it's good to experiment and to find your own truth. But there is no good in making sweeping statements that carry only half truths.
I do hope you work out your conflict.
Scott
Posted by Guy on December 29, 2002, at 18:23:27
In reply to Re: Please get a grip! » Guy, posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 14:49:03
Mr. Scott, I'm taking only clonazapam (.75 mg) at this point. My shrink prescribed remeron to go with it, but that gave me very scary and vivid dreams every night, so I stopped. I'm feeling the best I've ever felt for the past seven years. One of the keys is to accept the situation, get my sleep,and just forget about all the benzo hype. AD's generally make me feel very ill...almost like the flu combined with a bad hangover.
Posted by john7219 on December 29, 2002, at 19:09:50
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!!, posted by utopizen on December 29, 2002, at 17:34:14
What in the world are you talking about? I never claimed to be addicted or abusing cocaine or heroin in any way, shape, or form. I merely said I experimented with cocaine on a few occasions, yet I did not become addicted. End of story. I am however now addicted to Clonazepam. Why don't you think before you post such nonsense!
Posted by ZeeZee on December 29, 2002, at 19:15:42
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! » john7219, posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 17:37:01
Posted by Michael D on December 29, 2002, at 21:19:03
In reply to The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by john7219 on December 25, 2002, at 23:48:30
> Eight years and counting people, with the slightest decrease in my dosage resulting in a sleeplesness night filled with feelings of hell related symptoms.
You may want to try smoking marijuana to get off the clonazepam. It's known to help with withdrawal of many drugs. It might also help you sleep.
Michael D
> Any fool on this board who claims clonazepam is not addictive, since it has a relatively long half life, should return their pharmacology degree which was mailed to them. Valium has a long half life, Clonazepam does NOT! This stuff is INCREDIBLY ADDICTIVE!!!!!
Posted by HIBA on December 29, 2002, at 22:58:25
In reply to Re: The Truth About Clonazepam, posted by Michael D on December 29, 2002, at 21:19:03
Dr. Bob,Is it allowed to encourage such illegal drug use in this forum ?
HIBA
Posted by oracle on December 29, 2002, at 23:10:43
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!!, posted by john7219 on December 29, 2002, at 19:09:50
Posted by Aadika on December 30, 2002, at 0:34:43
In reply to Re: BENZODIAZEPINES DESTROY LIVES!! » john7219, posted by Mr.Scott on December 29, 2002, at 17:37:01
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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