![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1402 to 1426 of 8406. Go back in thread:
Posted by Alan on November 25, 2002, at 20:54:03
In reply to Re: Fiery Rhetoric/bottom » Mr.Scott, posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 20:36:41
> I think there are two issues here
> and they should be kept apart. They
> should be kept apart for a very good
> reason; if they become causally linked
> the accusation of responsibility comes up.
>
> If that happens, the result is that the
> "pharm rep" will blame the doctors, and
> if it is the doctor speaking, will blame
> the "pharms", and if is the "user" like
> me, well, i'll just be undulating back
> and forth ad infinitum, not really knowing
> who is wrong or right.
>
> Squiggles
==============================================This IS the one problem that I do have with a pharmrep "getting back to us" about what their docs tell them, etc. There is a disconnect and lack of oversight that is kind of like "I'll go see what the manager says about your offer" when dealing with a car dealership (no offense intended - respectfully, it's that kind of SYSTEM that troubles me, not something personally speaking about a pharmrep).
That "disconnect" or middleman approach is what can lead to mistrust of information that otherwise may perhaps be useful.
To ask those of us that have been through the wringer about this issue, the "trust me" would feel like it came up a little short...simply based on a mistrust of the commercially driven aspects of the industry that have directly effected us and that which we read about so often.
Alan
Posted by Alan on November 25, 2002, at 20:58:06
In reply to Re: BZD.org » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 20:47:17
> Well then you have not seen the articles
> under "Doctors and Experts" - click on that
> and you will see the papers by Dr. Ashton,
> and other doctors - those are medical reports
> not the forums.
>
> Squiggles
==========================================I certainly have...and been an observer of their content. All of this has been addressed in my latest post about proportion, context, and other observations in other posts about Ashton et all.
Alan
Posted by ayuda on November 25, 2002, at 21:09:48
In reply to Re: PoppyCock! » pharmrep, posted by Mr.Scott on November 25, 2002, at 18:59:49
> Oh it's delicious...No doubt!
You are pure evil. All I've been thinking about since your last post on this subject is caramel popcorn, except that 'tis the season for tri-flavor popcorn tins, and then I got to thinking about the cheese popcorn. But I was still okay, until I realized that even the buttered popcorn in those tins are good, and especially when mixed with the cheese popcorn.
So now I am munching on a tin-full of flavored popcorn, thanks to you. I hope all the calories go to your thighs instead of mine.
Posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 21:10:47
In reply to Re: BZD.org » Squiggles, posted by Alan on November 25, 2002, at 20:58:06
I must have been away while you were
doing your research. Are there posts
on Dr. Bob's about these articles and
how they were evaluated by you or others;I confess that while i was at Benzoland,
some things seemed secret, and the hierarchy
of the moderators something that not all
the commoners had access to; but that was
my impression. One person has totally
disappeared; he was a lawyer and a moderator
and the person with whom i wrote the FAQ;
I wonder if he died - sincerely, there was
a report of a death of a Scientologist around
the time he disappeared.It's a bit cloak and dagger and that has
shed suspicion on the very crucial aspect
of the group -- the nature of the benzos and
their effects -- this is not a good thing, as
there is good evidence to support the fact that
they are addictive.But when i recently saw Ray Nimmo's photograph
in the papers and his lawyer's report, and the
various reviews in "The Guardian", i thought
i must be wrong about a lot of things.Still, if you ever saw the Google posts i sent
(converstations with Ian at alt.support.anxiety.panic),
you will see that he made some very dark and
mysterious accusations about identities of people
and motives.The whole thing seems like a mystery film and i have not
come to the ending yet.Squiggles
Posted by ayuda on November 25, 2002, at 21:19:19
In reply to Re: PoppyCock! » Mr.Scott, posted by ayuda on November 25, 2002, at 21:09:48
> > Oh it's delicious...No doubt!
>
> You are pure evil. All I've been thinking about since your last post on this subject is caramel popcorn, except that 'tis the season for tri-flavor popcorn tins, and then I got to thinking about the cheese popcorn. But I was still okay, until I realized that even the buttered popcorn in those tins are good, and especially when mixed with the cheese popcorn.
>
> So now I am munching on a tin-full of flavored popcorn, thanks to you. I hope all the calories go to your thighs instead of mine.
>
>
I meant to implicate you, Mr. Scott, and pharm rep, by the way -- neither of you are blameless as I sit here getting cheese powder all over my keyboard.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2002, at 21:21:45
In reply to Re: PoppyCock! » Mr.Scott, posted by ayuda on November 25, 2002, at 21:09:48
> All I've been thinking about since your last post on this subject is caramel popcorn, except that 'tis the season for tri-flavor popcorn tins, and then I got to thinking about the cheese popcorn.
Posts that don't focus on medication should be redirected to another board; otherwise, they may be deleted. Thanks,
Bob
PS: In particular, posts regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2002, at 21:46:00
In reply to Re: let's focus on medication here, posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2002, at 21:21:45
> PS: In particular, posts regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/8312.html
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 25, 2002, at 21:56:14
In reply to Re: Fiery Rhetoric » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 10:37:09
> PoppyCock!
>
> Mr.ScottPlease respect the views of others (even if you think they're wrong), be sensitive to their feelings, and don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
> There's a representative from the pharmaceutical
> companies here? And he is taking notes?
> Who is he, let me at him..... grrrrrrrrrrrr!
>
> SquigglesPlease also be supportive -- or just keep your reaction to yourself.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Phyl on November 26, 2002, at 6:31:58
In reply to Anyone switched to Lexapro? « ggrrl, posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2002, at 7:52:48
It seems that if I take Lexapro in the morning, I can sleep pretty well at night. But if I take it in the late afternoon,I have difficulty falling asleep and need to take a Lorezepam to help me. Does it really make a difference what time you take the med? When I remember to take it in the morning, my energy level is fine. Could it be that taking it at the end of the day, the energy thing kicks in and that is what is keeping me awake? Or is it just some odd coincidence?
Posted by new user2 on November 26, 2002, at 6:32:53
In reply to Re: PoppyCock! » ayuda, posted by ayuda on November 25, 2002, at 21:19:19
I have been on Lexapro for 7 days for anxiety disorder (panic attacks). So far I have increased anxiety and feel almost hyperactive. Will this anxiety s/e evenually disappear as I continue with the medication?
Posted by Rich B on November 26, 2002, at 7:26:52
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Efficacy side effects » Alan, posted by Squiggles on November 25, 2002, at 19:55:14
OK, When I started this thread, somebody got off the subject right away and it turned into some heated debate. So, I am going to repost my previous message to see if I actually get responces that are relevant.
I have been on Lexapro for 5 days (including today) for Anxiety. So far, it has done nothing for the anxiety. If anything, it has made it worse. I grind my teeth allot and when I am working on something, I do it very intensely and the anxiety is even worse than it was before. When I am not doing much, am often tired. The tiredness is on and off and I get very tired early in the evening. I have not had insomnia, but when I get up at night to go to the bathroom, I have a hard time getting back to sleep. I have dry mouth and this very light constant headache in the back of my head. This is caused by a tightness in my neck and the back of my head that I believe Lexepro is causing. Can anyone shed some light on my situation? I know I need to give it more time, and I plan on it, but so far, it doesn’t look to good. I am trying to work on my anxiety problem (GAD) through therapy and I was hoping this medication would help bring me down a little and relax. Its hard to work on when the physical systems act as this counterproductive force holding me back.
Thanks in advance.
Rich
Posted by syringachalet on November 26, 2002, at 7:32:13
In reply to Re: wow...amen to alan on this , posted by pharmrep on November 25, 2002, at 10:43:34
Can a nurse and someone who has personal lived with the positive and negative side effects of twenty years of psychoactive medication have a moment at the microphone.....?
I have seen in my 20 years of nursing psychotrophic medications evolve from those that simply snowed the patient and never really helped resolve the issues that inititally caused the need for the meds to today when in many of the clients I see are able to function in the community at a level that their familys and long time friends never thought would exist. I have even had one mother tell me that her'son had come back from the dead and anything he could do for himself for a happier life was just fine with her'.
As a consumer, I too have seen psych meds make lighting speed strides in assisting clients and their families to have so much better lives.
The cleints who could have developed TD and all the medical issues that associate with it had almost evaporated.
For some, their being able to just remain out of custodial care has save our local state agencies thousands of dollars per client every year.
When I have a psych doc ask me if I think that the meds for John or Mary are working and do we need to reassess, I consider not only the input of the clients family/significant others, but I espeically ask the client if she/he feels differently on one med vs another..no judgement/bias..and in terms of their ability to function in the ADLs.My concern with any new med that comes out, regardless the reason it was prescribed, is how does it positively/negatively impact the clients daily life.
One old MD told me once that mental illness is much like a skin rash...you inititally treat the symptoms to give the patient some relief and if youre lucky you find out what caused it to occur and help the patient avoid its reoccurance....
Thanks. syringachalet
Posted by Geezer on November 26, 2002, at 8:51:01
In reply to Re: wow...amen to alan on this , posted by syringachalet on November 26, 2002, at 7:32:13
> Can a nurse and someone who has personal lived with the positive and negative side effects of twenty years of psychoactive medication have a moment at the microphone.....?
>
> I have seen in my 20 years of nursing psychotrophic medications evolve from those that simply snowed the patient and never really helped resolve the issues that inititally caused the need for the meds to today when in many of the clients I see are able to function in the community at a level that their familys and long time friends never thought would exist. I have even had one mother tell me that her'son had come back from the dead and anything he could do for himself for a happier life was just fine with her'.
> As a consumer, I too have seen psych meds make lighting speed strides in assisting clients and their families to have so much better lives.
> The cleints who could have developed TD and all the medical issues that associate with it had almost evaporated.
> For some, their being able to just remain out of custodial care has save our local state agencies thousands of dollars per client every year.
>
>
> When I have a psych doc ask me if I think that the meds for John or Mary are working and do we need to reassess, I consider not only the input of the clients family/significant others, but I espeically ask the client if she/he feels differently on one med vs another..no judgement/bias..and in terms of their ability to function in the ADLs.
>
> My concern with any new med that comes out, regardless the reason it was prescribed, is how does it positively/negatively impact the clients daily life.
>
> One old MD told me once that mental illness is much like a skin rash...you inititally treat the symptoms to give the patient some relief and if youre lucky you find out what caused it to occur and help the patient avoid its reoccurance....
>
>
> Thanks. syringachaletHi syringachalet,
Very nicely worded piece containing a great deal of truth for the fortunate 70%. Do you think there will ever be any attention given to developing efficacious medications for the rest of us? I have been at it for more than 30 years (have had brief periods of relief...18 mos. on Prozac) currently completeling an ECT series and taking 30mg of Parnate-not doing real well.
I would take isssue with only one comment in your post "the comment from the old MD.....treating the symptoms-then avoiding the reoccurance...". For many of us 30%'ers the illness is genetic, after a certain number of episodes the reoccurances become spontanious.....no trigger needed. For us the psych-social approach is a waste of time and splitting SSRI isomeres doesn't seem to help much either. Sorry to sound negative, just wanted to say there are some of us still waiting.
Geezer
Posted by dr. dave on November 26, 2002, at 9:05:33
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Efficacy side effects, posted by Rich B on November 26, 2002, at 7:26:52
> OK, When I started this thread, somebody got off the subject right away and it turned into some heated debate. So, I am going to repost my previous message to see if I actually get responces that are relevant.
>
>
> I have been on Lexapro for 5 days (including today) for Anxiety. So far, it has done nothing for the anxiety. If anything, it has made it worse. I grind my teeth allot and when I am working on something, I do it very intensely and the anxiety is even worse than it was before. When I am not doing much, am often tired. The tiredness is on and off and I get very tired early in the evening. I have not had insomnia, but when I get up at night to go to the bathroom, I have a hard time getting back to sleep. I have dry mouth and this very light constant headache in the back of my head. This is caused by a tightness in my neck and the back of my head that I believe Lexepro is causing. Can anyone shed some light on my situation? I know I need to give it more time, and I plan on it, but so far, it doesn’t look to good. I am trying to work on my anxiety problem (GAD) through therapy and I was hoping this medication would help bring me down a little and relax. Its hard to work on when the physical systems act as this counterproductive force holding me back.
> Thanks in advance.
> RichHere are some thoughts, which should not be taken as definitive.
SSRIs in general can cause an initial increase in anxiety and tension. This is a very tiring state to remain in for any length of time - your muscles are tensed up all the time - so it leaves you feeling exhausted even if you haven't been doing much. Dry mouth can be caused by anxiety, and muscle tension in your neck and scalp can give headaches.
So all the symptoms can be accounted for by an increase in anxiety due to starting an SSRI. The good news is this is likely to wear off in a week or two and you may begin to feel a lot better. It's just a question of waiting and seeing, but it may be worth giving it six weeks before making a judgement as to whether it helps or not.
Posted by wharfrat on November 26, 2002, at 9:26:28
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Efficacy side effects » Rich B, posted by dr. dave on November 26, 2002, at 9:05:33
Rich,
It's not uncommon to feel that you've been ignored on this board. I'm suprised Dr. Bob did'nt request a redirect on that "Fiery Rhetoric"
Anyway, back to you. 5 days on lexapro and your feeling exactly like I did, dull headaches, clenched jaw, trippy feeling. Don't worry, that should all go away after a couple of weeks. It did with me anyway. I never have been on an antidee before, but I was determined to go thru whatever it took to try and get better(by the way I've been on it for 8 weeks now and feeling better than I can remember ever feeling). I don't remember if you said this is your first experience with anti's or not, but hang in there. There are some other SSRI's that I've seen on this board that I believe (though I've never been on them), that the side effects sound hellacious compared to Lexapro. So good luck and keep posting.
Regards,
Wharf
Posted by iomasters on November 26, 2002, at 10:05:35
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Rich B, posted by wharfrat on November 26, 2002, at 9:26:28
> Rich,
> It's not uncommon to feel that you've been ignored on this board. I'm suprised Dr. Bob did'nt request a redirect on that "Fiery Rhetoric"
> Anyway, back to you. 5 days on lexapro and your feeling exactly like I did, dull headaches, clenched jaw, trippy feeling. Don't worry, that should all go away after a couple of weeks. It did with me anyway. I never have been on an antidee before, but I was determined to go thru whatever it took to try and get better(by the way I've been on it for 8 weeks now and feeling better than I can remember ever feeling). I don't remember if you said this is your first experience with anti's or not, but hang in there. There are some other SSRI's that I've seen on this board that I believe (though I've never been on them), that the side effects sound hellacious compared to Lexapro. So good luck and keep posting.
> Regards,
> Wharf
Rich and Wharf,
Thanks for your thoughts. I have been on Lexapro for 3 days now (today included), and every day I have said that I'm not going to take it the next.
But, I am 'desperate' to overcome the feelings I had before I started.I have had the EXACT same side effects that you described. I really don't like the 'antsy' feeling I have all day, but I am hoping that
-with time- it will subside. Thanks for writing. It has encouraged me to hang in there.Rich, please keep me posting as the side effects fade ;)
iomasters
Posted by new user2 on November 26, 2002, at 11:33:22
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Rich B » wharfrat, posted by iomasters on November 26, 2002, at 10:05:35
Just wondering if anyone experienced sensitivity to bright lights during the first week of taking lexapro. Any info would be helpful.
Thank you!
Posted by markmn on November 26, 2002, at 13:39:11
In reply to Re: Forest » Mr.Scott, posted by maririp on October 10, 2002, at 7:31:03
Hi all,
I've been on Lexapro(10mg)(10mg 5 in the morning and 5 with dinner)for about two and a half weeks now. Problem is that for about a 4 or 5 hour period in the middle of the day my brain is so foggy. My eyes feel super heavy and I don't feel with it. Is my dosage to high on the Lex, my doctor started me at 10, not the usual 5? Should I just take it at night? I've also been weening myself off of Paxil (15mg). I'm currently at 5mg. I know this could all be withdrawal, but have any of you had this s/e starting Lexapro?
-markmn
Posted by mills on November 26, 2002, at 13:47:28
In reply to Anyone else foggy on Lexapro?, posted by markmn on November 26, 2002, at 13:39:11
foggy is not the word for it; more like demented, but i'm on 30 mg, and it is worse in the morning (I take at night) and subsides 'somewhat' by the end of the day; i went through a similar thing with paxil and one day realized it was gone, but it was hard as hell riding it out, but i was very very glad i did; i can only hope the same thing happens with lexapro because it is very unsettling
> Hi all,
>
> I've been on Lexapro(10mg)(10mg 5 in the morning and 5 with dinner)for about two and a half weeks now. Problem is that for about a 4 or 5 hour period in the middle of the day my brain is so foggy. My eyes feel super heavy and I don't feel with it. Is my dosage to high on the Lex, my doctor started me at 10, not the usual 5? Should I just take it at night? I've also been weening myself off of Paxil (15mg). I'm currently at 5mg. I know this could all be withdrawal, but have any of you had this s/e starting Lexapro?
> -markmn
Posted by Alan on November 26, 2002, at 14:45:37
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Efficacy side effects, posted by Rich B on November 26, 2002, at 7:26:52
> OK, When I started this thread, somebody got off the subject right away and it turned into some heated debate. So, I am going to repost my previous message to see if I actually get responces that are relevant.
>
>
> I have been on Lexapro for 5 days (including today) for Anxiety. So far, it has done nothing for the anxiety. If anything, it has made it worse. I grind my teeth allot and when I am working on something, I do it very intensely and the anxiety is even worse than it was before. When I am not doing much, am often tired. The tiredness is on and off and I get very tired early in the evening. I have not had insomnia, but when I get up at night to go to the bathroom, I have a hard time getting back to sleep. I have dry mouth and this very light constant headache in the back of my head. This is caused by a tightness in my neck and the back of my head that I believe Lexepro is causing. Can anyone shed some light on my situation? I know I need to give it more time, and I plan on it, but so far, it doesn’t look to good. I am trying to work on my anxiety problem (GAD) through therapy and I was hoping this medication would help bring me down a little and relax. Its hard to work on when the physical systems act as this counterproductive force holding me back.
> Thanks in advance.
> Rich
===========================================
I think I responded directly after you posted:Many docs include a "start - up" benzo like ativan or xanax to counteract the start-up side effects of AD's - increased anxiety, etc....especially when you are doing this very important "head" work with a psychologist or other type of therapy.
Has your doctor offered you bzd monotherapy on an equal footing with the AD - considering your DX?
If not, why not?
Alan
Posted by wharfrat on November 26, 2002, at 15:14:45
In reply to Light sensitivity, posted by new user2 on November 26, 2002, at 11:33:22
> Just wondering if anyone experienced sensitivity to bright lights during the first week of taking lexapro. Any info would be helpful.
>
> Thank you!Newuser2
I don't really remember light sensitivity because I've always been light sensitive, but about the first 2 weeks on lexapro, colors really seemed vivid and at times my vision was just really screwed up, could'nt focus my eyes etc. But that has pretty much gone away.
Good luck and hang in there.
Wharf
Posted by wharfrat on November 26, 2002, at 15:39:55
In reply to Anyone else foggy on Lexapro?, posted by markmn on November 26, 2002, at 13:39:11
Hi markmn,
I'm on 10 mg for 8 weeks now. My doctor told me to take it in the morning and I don't have any problems during the day. At the time I started though, I was borderline insomniac, get 3 maybe 4 hours of sleep a night. Doc told me that after taking lexapro for about 2 weeks, I should start sleeping thru the night. By taking it in the morning, any fogginess that I had or occasionally still have occurs around bedtime. And that's a good thing because I sleep like a baby all night long and am fully rested in the morning and thru the day. You might just take the whole 10 mg in the morning and see what happens. It might kind of hammer you at first since your not used to taking a full dose at once, but hey, I've never taken antidees before and I stuck out all the little inconvenient side effects with lexapro and glad I did. Good luck.
Wharf
Posted by wharfrat on November 26, 2002, at 16:07:45
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Rich B » wharfrat, posted by iomasters on November 26, 2002, at 10:05:35
> > Rich,
> > It's not uncommon to feel that you've been ignored on this board. I'm suprised Dr. Bob did'nt request a redirect on that "Fiery Rhetoric"
> > Anyway, back to you. 5 days on lexapro and your feeling exactly like I did, dull headaches, clenched jaw, trippy feeling. Don't worry, that should all go away after a couple of weeks. It did with me anyway. I never have been on an antidee before, but I was determined to go thru whatever it took to try and get better(by the way I've been on it for 8 weeks now and feeling better than I can remember ever feeling). I don't remember if you said this is your first experience with anti's or not, but hang in there. There are some other SSRI's that I've seen on this board that I believe (though I've never been on them), that the side effects sound hellacious compared to Lexapro. So good luck and keep posting.
> > Regards,
> > Wharf
>
>
> Rich and Wharf,
> Thanks for your thoughts. I have been on Lexapro for 3 days now (today included), and every day I have said that I'm not going to take it the next.
> But, I am 'desperate' to overcome the feelings I had before I started.
>
> I have had the EXACT same side effects that you described. I really don't like the 'antsy' feeling I have all day, but I am hoping that
> -with time- it will subside. Thanks for writing. It has encouraged me to hang in there.
>
> Rich, please keep me posting as the side effects fade ;)
>
> iomasters
>iomasters,
the other wierd side effect I remember early on was a kind of metallic taste in my mouth and a feeling that I was starting a psychedelic trip. Have you felt that way?
Wharf
Posted by syringachalet on November 26, 2002, at 16:22:20
In reply to Re: Taking pill morning vs. night? , posted by Phyl on November 26, 2002, at 6:31:58
Hi Phyl, I have had clients that tell me similar scenarios to yours above: Being too anxious/wakefull to sleep at bedtime whe taking the Lexapro at h.s. (hour of sleep).
Phyl, my personal and professional experience is that because the med seems to be helping with your anxiety/depression and most of us will need these SSRIs until our own brain deceieds they dont need them anymore( which could be a very long time), we need to help make our medication regimes just another part of OUR lifestyles.
If taking your Lexapro fits your lifestyle better in the morning, by all means take it then. The emphasis is on regualar DAILY dose.
For me, I have gotten to the point that I usually take my Lexapro at h.s. but if I have the chance to go out with friends and want a glass of white wine with my dinner(that is ONE 4 ounce glass ONLY), I take my Lexapro the next morning.
All of these drugs have half-lives and for me
and most anyone, it would be safer and better
for me to incorporate my medication as just another part of my daily life..like eating, showering or anything else I do every day.So Phyl, if taking your Lexapro works better in the AM, great...MAKE YOUR MEDS REALLY WORK FOR YOU!!!(they ought to.. they cost enough :o)
syringachalet
Posted by oldhand on November 26, 2002, at 16:25:55
In reply to Re: 5 Days on Lexepro = Efficacy side effects, posted by Rich B on November 26, 2002, at 7:26:52
Hi Rich:
I have been on Lexapro since Nov. 12th. I too feel tense, clench my jaws at night and carry a slight headache but after a nasty trial of Effexor I am going to go with this. I feel much less depressed but have very little energy (maybe from the tension as mentioned). I am looking at major changes within the next two weeks so I don't know what to credit the tension to, life stressors or medication. I also have terrible insomnia but again am waiting for things to settle down before seriously addressing this. One good thing is I do not feel like drinking alcohol which I have used excessively in the past.
I am sensitive to alot of meds and have had bad reactions or had them poop out on me all too often. I think it was George Carlin who said "side effects" are only side effects if you are the doctor. If you are the patient they are major effects.
I say hang in there and keep us posted.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.