![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 31 to 55 of 175. Go back in thread:
Posted by Squiggles on October 20, 2002, at 19:53:02
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » Squiggles, posted by Alan on October 20, 2002, at 19:31:11
Alan,
I appreciate your posts very much. I love
reading them because they are thoughtful,
informed, and caring. I think you are a
nice person. I was only teasing about bedside
manner (chacun a son gout):-).You may be right about some aspects of
the benzo group. There are many people
who have experienced severe withdrawal symptoms
and as I have told you before, just about every
medical text i have read on addiction, puts
the benzos along side (though not as severe)
the barbituates, for withdrawal severity.
Seizures after long use is not uncommon and
can be fatal.As for my case, i admit that i have had my
sceptical moments. I have wondered if perhaps
the lithium was not the culprit. My dr. lowered
my thyroxine med. about 40% and kept the lithium
at the same level about 3 years before this
stroke thing happened. It could have been the
lithium that gave me this cerebral event.
It could have been drug displacement with the
Klonopin coming off and the lithium kicking in.
Or it could have just been the Klonopin withdrawal--at
least that is what my doctor said.So, you are correct in saying that each case is
complex and many other factors come into play.
For example during the summer that happened, we had
the hottest summer on record - maybe it was a heat stroke.But remember, my doctor said it was withdrawal.
Frankly, I don't know. What is really disturbing
is that nobody knows, and nobody checked the inside
of my brain. I am little worried about these issues.As for scaring people off benzos - i really believe
that benzos, if given with adequate supervision can
do a tremendous amount of good. But that can be
said of not just benzos, but any drug, and any
medical treatment. Famous last words!Squiggles
Posted by Alan on October 20, 2002, at 20:15:55
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » Alan, posted by Squiggles on October 20, 2002, at 19:53:02
> You may be right about some aspects of
> the benzo group. There are many people
> who have experienced severe withdrawal symptoms
> and as I have told you before, just about every
> medical text i have read on addiction, puts
> the benzos along side (though not as severe)
> the barbituates, for withdrawal severity.
> Seizures after long use is not uncommon and
> can be fatal.
==============================================Well, withdrawal severity is not the same as withdrawal commonality. And that's the distinction that needs to be made vis-a-vis the inflammitory rhetoric surrounding the lumping of narcotics and bzds when concerning withdrawal....especially viewed through the prism of texts on "addiction".
I certainly wouldn't want to be prescribed to and managed by an addictionologist where the whole world would seem to be a stage for case after case of "addiction". There are few addictionologists that even make the distinction between "addiction" and appropriate sustained levels of "medical dependence". And that's where the problem lies. Docs looking for problems where they do not lie.
The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of those "addicts" that are using bzds are not using them alone but to get from high ot high from one illegal substance (or alcohol) to another as sort of a buffer. Of course there are going to be narcotic-type withdrawals for those that are poly-drug abusers or have such high dosages to begin with or most importantly have a predisposition for drug-seeking behaivor.
Unfortunately addictionologists will look first at the drug and not at the patient's attitude towards a drug as the genesis of the problem.
Most don't go out seeking highs - at least the type of hard core addicts that I'm speaking of - and that's what makes them different from you and me. Same with opioids for pain. Why do we discriminate between physical and psychic pain? It's so deeply rooted culturally speaking that grandma or mum aren't given enough pain medication for fear of being addicted just for the sake of being addicted! Where does that rationale come from? How is that compassionate?
We treat them more humanely these days I hope but why is the use of bzds to treat psychic pain so demonised and such a moral issue for folks? Because people may become medically dependant on them. To withold them as anything other than an eqivalent for treating the anxiety disorders borders on Calvinism.
No, it is Calvinism.
Alan
Posted by viridis on October 20, 2002, at 20:49:01
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » Squiggles, posted by Alan on October 20, 2002, at 20:15:55
I agree with Alan. Benzos have helped me tremendously, with essentially no side effects and no need for any increase in dosage. The various ADs I've tried have had terrible side effects and have increased my anxiety, even at very low doses, and for me these effects don't disappear with time. I know others who have done extremely well on Prozac, Celexa, etc., so I'm sure these are great meds for some people. However, I no longer have any patience with doctors who push these drugs on me when I tell them of my experiences, and my positive reaction to benzos. Fortunately, I now have a totally non-benzophobic psychiatrist who quickly realized that benzos were appropriate meds for me, and that SSRIs and Wellbutrin were not.
I haven't tried to withdraw from benzos (and don't have any plans to in the near future). My psychiatrist was very straightforward in telling me that medical dependency was likely to develop, just as it does with various ADs, blood pressure meds, insulin, etc. According to him, supervised withdrawal from benzos by slow taper is quite routine and is not a problem for most people. However, he seems most concerned that I continue to take benzos, because of their proven record of safety, my very positive reaction to relatively low doses, and the damage that long-term anxiety does to one's mental and physical health.
The whole benzo argument seems silly to me. Treatment for for anxiety should be like treatment for any other medical condition. Certain meds are appropriate for some people, not for others. So, find out whether benzos work for you, or whether ADs would be better, and then follow the best treatment plan. If you run into foolish doctors who insist that "one med fits all", or "benzos are addictive", then move on until you find a doctor who listens to what you say and is comfortable with prescribing the best treatment.
Posted by Squiggles on October 20, 2002, at 20:59:08
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » Squiggles, posted by Alan on October 20, 2002, at 20:15:55
Alan,
[I find this set up an exercise in memory];
anyway;"Withdrawal severity is not the same as withdrawal
commonality"--granted--because medical prescription
is administered indefinitely, and in my case (K)
for the rest of my life. It is a tautology in these
circumstances that the patient will not experience
withdrawal severity, unless the doctor fails to raise
the dose. That is what happened to me with Xanax
and how I found out. The nature of the drug plays
a role as well. It is not the case with Klonopin as this
drug may take 7 yrs to up the level before tolerance
is reached. Don't ask me why - i am not a pharmacologist.As for benzo addicts who take the drug possibly because
they are coke addicts or need something to bring them down
(street drug addiction), i would be very surprised if
the principles of addiction on the body is any different
here than for a CEO who drives a Porsche.Regarding psychic pain, i disagree with you - there is
compassion here. Doctors DO prescribe anxiolytics
for anxiety, which is a psychic pain; as well as
post traumatic disorder and maybe even the agitation that
can accompany deep grief.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on October 20, 2002, at 21:04:55
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working, posted by viridis on October 20, 2002, at 20:49:01
I think that each person should choose
the drug that she or he feels comfortable
with. And i think you have a considerate
doctor to work with you.I am not sure for how long benzos will
work their magic without deliterious side
effects. Personally, Xanax destroyed my
life plans and projects--however, it is
conceivable that had I raised the dose
this may not have happened.Again, with Klonopin (raised a couple of times
in 15 yrs) the same was not the case. And
who knows, maybe the type and half-life of the
benzo will make a difference.You are also correct in bringing up the many
side effects of the ADs and the trials and
tribulations one has to go through to get the
right fit. I know from my friend, who finally
after 15 years and some 25 different drug
samples and experiences, has finally hit on
something that doesn't turn him into Mr. Hyde.So, i am glad for you and i hope the effect
continues.Squiggles
Posted by viridis on October 20, 2002, at 21:29:14
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » viridis, posted by Squiggles on October 20, 2002, at 21:04:55
Hi Squiggles,
Thank you for the vote of confidence, and I'm really sorry to hear about the problems you had with benzos. They seem rather unusual, but it just goes to show how much individual variation there is in response to medications.
Klonopin is my mainstay -- I only take Xanax occasionally, for very stressful situations, so I'm not dependent on it, just K. Who knows how I'll feel in a few years. For now, I just feel consistently normal and enthusiastic about life, for the first time in decades. And I am very lucky to have an informed, sympathetic pdoc who really listens to what I tell him and is open to a wide variety of treatment options.
Thanks again, and all the best to you.
Viridis
Posted by Squiggles on October 20, 2002, at 21:35:57
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working, posted by viridis on October 20, 2002, at 21:29:14
Viridis,
I really don't think you will have problems
with Klonopin, as long as you stay on it.Had i listened to my doctor, and not tried to
get off it after 15 yrs. i would not have had
such problems. Unfortunately, i succumbed to
the enthusiasm of the benzo group--which has
many useful and informative testimonials. And
even there, variation between individuals
is great.One thing is certain--benzos are addicting.
But, so what? As long as you are taken off easy,
IF you have to be taken off.Squiggles
Posted by Alan on October 20, 2002, at 23:28:11
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » Alan, posted by Squiggles on October 20, 2002, at 20:59:08
>
> Regarding psychic pain, i disagree with you - there is
> compassion here. Doctors DO prescribe anxiolytics
> for anxiety, which is a psychic pain; as well as
> post traumatic disorder and maybe even the agitation that
> can accompany deep grief.
>
> Squiggles
========================================Long term is the exception - that was my impression from your part of the world.
Alan
Posted by Alan on October 20, 2002, at 23:41:44
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » viridis, posted by Squiggles on October 20, 2002, at 21:04:55
> I am not sure for how long benzos will
> work their magic without deliterious side
> effects. Personally, Xanax destroyed my
> life plans and projects--however, it is
> conceivable that had I raised the dose
> this may not have happened.
>
====================================Go ahead and call me an a** for saying so but this is not only a possibility in your case but the probable reason that xanax in general has gotten a bad name - needing dose adjustments or during start - up, many titrations ( the problem being not knowing how to manage it for most people).
Most go by some arbitrary set of guidelines that they can't increase to theraputic levels from an arbitrary starting point to begin with...and what makes it most tricky is the short half-life. Keeping up with dosages account for many a perceived problem I'm sure - especially considering the withdrawal symptom heightens the state of already unberable agintation in many cases.
Too bad there isn't a xanax extended release somewhere in order to combat the misperceptions out there when patients finally get to a theraputic dose, their underlying anxiety fluctuates, they need more, and all sorts of flags go up to the doc that dosage escalation is occuring.
The addictionologist is sure to interrupt at this point.
Alan
Posted by Squiggles on October 21, 2002, at 8:02:43
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » Squiggles, posted by Alan on October 20, 2002, at 23:28:11
If you mean they are prescribed long-term,
and that is the case we are discussing, as
a layman, i really think that is a mistake--not
only for benzos (though they particularly
addictive) but for all psychiatric drugs.
I suspect that the prophylactic business is
really a matter of expediency.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on October 21, 2002, at 8:45:30
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » Squiggles, posted by Alan on October 20, 2002, at 23:41:44
I agree with this 100%. It would be ideal
if the drug companies provided drug doctors;
i think doctors are overwhelmed with
a new field for which they never trained-
psychopharmacology. Very often the drug
is just misadministered. (Euripides, Eumenides):=)Squiggles
Posted by Alan on October 21, 2002, at 9:35:46
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » Alan, posted by Squiggles on October 21, 2002, at 8:02:43
> If you mean they are prescribed long-term,
> and that is the case we are discussing, as
> a layman, i really think that is a mistake--not
> only for benzos (though they particularly
> addictive) but for all psychiatric drugs.
> I suspect that the prophylactic business is
> really a matter of expediency.
>
> Squiggles
===========================================
Then I guess that chronic and severe (enough) don't warrant a compassionate response by doctors - the same as we were talking about re: opioids?For much of the panic population, sustained, stable, medical dependence is a norm that is here to stay as a realised, effective, and as the preferred form of treatment....especially, as you agree, the doctors learn more about the correct usage of the drug....without the spin of "addiction" added to their's and their patient's benzophobia.
Benzophobia is of course anxiety related and compounded with AD commercialism pushing the phobia over the top. Adding fuel to the fire of worry by using the "A" word is not helping the general population that would benefit from stable medical dependence on these medications that have by all non-commercial credible accounts including the W.H.O. (the most independent group left) that explicitly state that the saftey and efficacy for short and long term bzd monotherapy is not even in question.
Alan
Posted by Squiggles on October 21, 2002, at 9:58:04
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » Squiggles, posted by Alan on October 21, 2002, at 9:35:46
With regard to benzos, there is good reason
to keep the patient on indefinitely or forever;
the withdrawals are so horrendous. Any argument
against this is an argument against all the
testimony and the Pharmaceutical Association's
caution about addiction; not to mention the
APA, the AMA, and all the texts. They all say
that benzos should be used short-term (3 months
and no more, or for crisis situations).There is nothing morally wrong with addiction,
but consider that if you start at a young age,
you will hit tolerance faster, which means you
will have to raise the dose indefinitely. Again,
with most benzos there is nothing wrong with that,
except that the side effects will accumulate with
age.As for putting someone on a psychiatric drug
for the rest of his or her life--this may be
necessary if the depression or mania or anxiety
is a life-long disorder. In some cases that
may be so. I was reading Kraeplin last night and
he kept charts on how often the swings occurred
in mania and depression. In some people it was
every 7 years, in some every 10, in some every 20,
in some only once in a lifetime, and in some almost
daily.With regard to anxiety, the disorder is so unnatural
that one must ask whether it is not infact a side effect
of a drug (i have witnessed this myself); whether it is
not infact a result of hyperthyroidism, or any other
20 or 30 possible causes OTHER than a disease itself.
To do that, the doctors must devote some more precious
time and eliminate the other possible and more likely
causes.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on October 21, 2002, at 11:54:05
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » Squiggles, posted by Alan on October 21, 2002, at 9:35:46
Alan,
I should be frank with you. I am iatrophobic.
I don't wish to deceive anyone here, but I do
fear that doctors and drug companies are against
mental patients, in the sense that they do not
know or care about what they're doing.This is a dangerous flaw because it leads many
i am sure to experiment with their drugs and
maybe become very sick. It also has encouraged
the anti-psychiatry groups like benzo (parts of
it - because much of what is said is true) and
others.I try to be cautious, and i confess i have
sometimes caused myself some trouble because of
this.It's the damned side effects - that is the
cause, i'm sure. I hope you understand.Squiggles
Posted by Jefff on October 21, 2002, at 23:59:06
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working Alan » Jefff, posted by Alan on October 20, 2002, at 12:18:15
>> Why are you consistently smoking pot? This, as alchohol, is usually used most of the time, in the way that you describe it, for self medication. If you finally did find a doc that you felt safe admitting this to, they would still have a hard time justifying prescriptins of a bzd...but then again, if there is some way of convincing yourself AND them that you are not gong to smoke pot while at the same time taking xanax they my at least be inclined to listen.
> Smoking pot to physicians is "drug-seeking behaivour" and almost immediately disqualifies you for xanax because of your penchant to seek highs. In their minds, "potential for abuse goes way up".
> That's not to say that you want to , with the help of an open minded doc that you are willing to be monitored as to your quit seeking this high, and substitute the xanax or ativan or whatever for the pot.
> It seems entirely up to you if you are serious about confronting these issues.
> Rehabilitate off of the pot first, prove that to your doctor, and hope that you have one compassionate enough to understand that you were self-medicating with pot.
> Many AA members are successful at making the switch from the bazooka-like effect of alcohol to the lazer-like effect of bzds to treat anxiety disorder (this is the diagnosis, yes?). Or is it depression secondary to the overwhelming anxiety?
>
> AlanAlan,
At my final visit with my Dr a couple weeks ago I asked him what my official diagnosis was.
He claimed this:
#1-Dysthymia...(which IMO is wrong as I dont have "MILD depression", I have life long, never ending moderate to severe depression which fluctuates in intensity).
#2- Social Phobia...(which IMO Id say was more like severe social anxiety along with general anxiety over many different things (perhaps GAD).
#3- Schizoid personality disorder... (which I may or may not be... but it does sound like I am when I read the online diagnosis. The actual term sounds pretty scary/crazy and not something Id like to admit to too many people).
#4-Body Dysmorphic disorder... (which again, I may or may not be... I tend to believe that Im not and that Im just extremely self conscious/anxiety ridden to the extreme point where I have never felt attractive or worthy enough to ever have sex/intimacy with someone Ive been attracted to. Ive never focused on one particular thing that was out of the ordinary... its always just been a conglomeration of things- such as too thin or too fator not toned enough or the acne or this or that.)
Regarding the pot issue, yes Im definitely self medicating with the pot. Its all I have to keep me from going crazy (can you imagine going through your whole life with those mental issues PLUS being only 33 years old and having spent the past seven years inside a very small house completely isolated from the entire world- aside from your cats, roomate and shrink?)
No way in hell Id tell my new (or old) shrink about the pot. Sure, Id gladly quit smoking it if I had no need to..and honestly (which I mentioned in another post ) the few days that I had the Xanax it interestingly very much curbed my "need" to smoke the pot. But I definitely dont trust, need or want any doctor restricting or withholding beneficial medications from me just because I smoke pot.
Im wondering though if it would be a good or absolutely stupid idea to tell me new med. prescriber that I had recently sampled Xanax? If she knows that it worked for me, and that the clonazepam really isnt, wouldnt she be more willing to let me use it?
Oh God...I cant even describe how much I resent and hate having my sanity/mental health regulated and under the control of someone else.
Jeff
Posted by hiba on October 22, 2002, at 5:25:54
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » Alan, posted by Squiggles on October 21, 2002, at 9:58:04
Dear Squiggles,
Hats off to your stubbornness. You still see benzos as addictive and leave all those newer and older antidepressants without even bothering to mention their names. Zoloft, paxil, effexor, wellbutrin, remeron all causes dependence and they obviously produce more severe withdrawal symptoms than benzos. You don't want go any other sites for the clarification. Just see the posts in this forum.
Have you ever experienced a hollow-feeling ? I hope you didn't and will not experience it in your life. I have gone through that hollowness and I swear, it is the worst thing to experience. Worst than a seizure, I dare to say that.
ACE inhibitors are extensively being used to treat hypertension. But see the pharmaceutical manuals. There is warning: ACE inhibitors can cause kidney failure!! . Still millions are being treated with vasotec and captopril.....
Does it ring any bell??
HIBA
Posted by Squiggles on October 22, 2002, at 8:04:58
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working ??, posted by hiba on October 22, 2002, at 5:25:54
Are the ACE inhibotors the same as Beta-blockers?
I am sorry i did not mention the ADs by name;
I know that the SSRIs are particularly hard to
get off of and all psychiatric drugs now carry
a policy of "washing out" when changing.As for experiences hollowness, my depression prior
to lithium was so bad that i could not stand
inside my skin. I actually went out to run in
front of a car, but took a turn to the hospital;
it was fortunate that we then still had a hospital
near us.I cannot describe the depths of the depression -
it was unbelievable - something like Hades i guess.So, i sympathize, and i wonder what kind of derpession
you have so you can get the right drug.Squiggles
Posted by musil on October 22, 2002, at 11:55:43
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » viridis, posted by Squiggles on October 20, 2002, at 21:35:57
Regarding the benzophobic groups, I also fell prey to their pseudoscientific reasonings and suffered greatly during a 4 month withdrawal. BUT there was no medical reason for me to withdraw: at 1.5mg clonazepam for 18 months I hadn't experienced tolerance and the benefits of bzd therapy were evident in my functionality. I restarted diazepam recently and all is well again.
I'm trying not to point fingers, but deceptive advertising bothers me and the antibenzo movement reminds me of a cult. For example, I participated in a forum that advertised itself as a supportive environment for those undergoing withdrawal from benzodiazepines.
However, once I began participating in the forum the irrational drive to quickly taper was made manifest -- I felt a clear pressure to taper as quickly as possible and then wallow in the withdrawal symptoms with other sadists in the forum. I was undergoing an emergence of a previously contained GAD and psychotic major depression, perhaps related to the withdrawal, perhaps not; only a doctor could advise me wisely.
The overarching antibenzo stance of the forum wasn't made manifest until the moderator posted his antibenzo stance when I began to waver in my taper; support quickly became conditional on tapering, regardless of the efficacy of bzd or the severity of the withdrawal.
All symptoms, including a raging sinus infection, were blamed on bzds. A re-emergence of a serious mental illness was never considered.You might well ask what the hell I expected from such a group, and that's a good question. I guess I expected support without the politcal stance.
Conclusions:
a) I was really naive.
b) I was incredibly anxious and susceptible to
any perceived "support" no matter how biased.
c) Black and white thinking about meds should be immediately suspect.
d) Be careful, there are cults.> Viridis,
>
> I really don't think you will have problems
> with Klonopin, as long as you stay on it.
>
> Had i listened to my doctor, and not tried to
> get off it after 15 yrs. i would not have had
> such problems. Unfortunately, i succumbed to
> the enthusiasm of the benzo group--which has
> many useful and informative testimonials. And
> even there, variation between individuals
> is great.
>
> One thing is certain--benzos are addicting.
> But, so what? As long as you are taken off easy,
> IF you have to be taken off.
>
> Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on October 22, 2002, at 12:29:16
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working, posted by musil on October 22, 2002, at 11:55:43
Hi Viridis,
I appreciate your post. I don't recall meeting
you there. I can tell you that when I joined
that group, I felt as if i was in the 60's. It
was almost a sense of elation. Ray Nimmo was
SO smart. I have kept a description of his
moans and groans--i swear the Monty Python crew
could not have written something so funny. I
would walk down the street and crack up. The man
is a genius. He is also very enterprising and
vengeful. He just won a lawsuit in England for
40,000 pounds for brain damage from benzos.The reason I went there was just after I had gotten
off Xanax, which (as i have described in another
post) caused me panic attacks for about 10 yrs.
I found out the cause was tolerance. I demanded
to be taken off--i don't believe my drs. knew the
real problem. This encouraged me to try to get
off Rivtoril.Ray Nimmo and David Woolfe and Jan, were the people
I worked with--writing the FAQ. I really felt that
I was involved in meaningful advocacy work. Rand
was taking the Canadian front. And there is great
truth in what they were saying-- the withdrawals
from benzos are dangerous and worse MISLEADING.
For example, I still don't know and probably never
will, if Valium withdrawal during college did not
present manic depression symptoms, mistaken for the
real thing.As for the enthusiasm and religious devotion to
getting off all pyschiatric drugs--yes, it's a cult.
Ray did not push me, but really thought, i suppose
from his experience that, that these drugs are
very pernicious. You must have heard of Dr. Loren
Mosher (x-president of the American Psychiatric
Association resigning over the overprescription
of drugs), Dr. Breggin, Lawrence Stevens J.D., Charles
Medawar, David Healy to some extent, and so many
others, who are of the same opinion.I was very happy to work with Ray. However, the
trouble started when the withdrawal from Klonopin
made me sick every day, and all i had ahead of me
was hope, hope, hope, that there was a light at
the end of the tunnel, the only way out is through
[through what I wondered sometimes - through my
*ucking grave]... and I started to whine and
protest that possibly bipolars should not do this.Anyway, I finally came to 0.125 from 1.0mg Klonopin,
and that is when i had the stroke. Ray, actually
had the gall to say to me that I was weak to reinstate--
something which my husband encouraged me to do as i was
literally hugging the walls. Hmmmmm.....Well, i can't say if my w/d was so hard because
of so many years of taking it and thus the brain
had changed, or whether i really need the drug.
In any case, I can't get off--i risked my sanity.The only reason i can offer for the zeal of that
group is the knowledge of the tremendous suffering
that people have gone through in dosage misadministration,
withdrawal, forgetting or stopping without guidance.
Benzo withdrawal REALLY is incredibly awful, compounded
by dose, time, and other factors in the individual.Whether they are Scientologists or not--perhaps some
are, but I don't think that is the MAIN reason
for the push to get off benzos.There were some mysterious events at times which
made me suspicious, but I have not put together
all the pieces of the puzzle.You must understand, that in this world of lies,
filing practices which pass for medical treatment,
lack of compassion, and lack of imagination in
the cognitive and pharmacological arts, a group
like that is very attractive, maybe even transcendent.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on October 22, 2002, at 13:47:40
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working » musil, posted by Squiggles on October 22, 2002, at 12:29:16
Sorry, i got the names mixed up.
Squiggles
Posted by Alan on October 22, 2002, at 17:25:07
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working ??, posted by hiba on October 22, 2002, at 5:25:54
The bottom line about the subject, an argument put forward by many a professional that know their business based on the most reliable and recent clinical and statistical information is two-fold:
1) If one is unwilling or unable to distinguish between addiction and medical dependence, one could talk until doomsday and it would be nothing other than an incredible waste of time.
2) One can not generalise their own situation and extrapolate out for the general population based on their experience. It is not a logically sound form of reasoning - especially in the science of medicine.
Needless to say, both still prevail in the anti-benzo movement and that doesn't even take into account the similarly commercially driven opinions of the APA, ASA, APDA, AA, AAPRA, AAA, AARP, BSA, 20 year old texts, or whomever you want to list (all, by the way, relying on the original prescribing information made by the companies and completely ignoring the plethora of more independent studies over the last 40+ years - reviewed by the World Health Organisation).
Yeah, I've dialougued with Ray and Rand and similar anti-benzo zealots and it's a waste of time. The only positive outcome of such invasions by them is to counter bad information with better information. Then it becomas painfully clear to the vulnerable anxiety sufferer that they're attempting to broadside that there's no great mystery and demon factor when it comes to these medications - more than any other. It's just their "thing" to do.
The profit motive in promting AD's for anxiety disorders from "face time" is laughingly obvious - and has even emboldened pharmecutical representatives to infiltrate bboards of vulnerable anxiety suffers to "advise" them as if giving out medical advice....second hand from a small group of doctors they've "consulted" with.
I mean, come on. How much more obvious can this elephant standing in the room become before someone says anything?
Alan
Posted by Squiggles on October 22, 2002, at 17:29:33
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working ??, posted by Alan on October 22, 2002, at 17:25:07
I don't wish to discuss addiction versus
medical dependence. I will talk about it
with a linguist, or a philosopher but that's
it.If you don't mind saying Alan, i am interested
in knowing whether you are a doctor or a nurse.
I notice that you constantly refer to the World
Health Organization, and I wonder why you do
so.Squiggles
Posted by Alan on October 22, 2002, at 19:15:50
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working ?? » Alan, posted by Squiggles on October 22, 2002, at 17:29:33
> I don't wish to discuss addiction versus
> medical dependence. I will talk about it
> with a linguist, or a philosopher but that's
> it.Then the refusal to make the distinction (what all physicians make all of their decisions based on - on a daily basis worldwide) is your own decision to put into the catagory of linguistics or philosophy. There's nothing to stop you from doing that. But for the reasons that I mention, the reasons that make that point relevant, are indeed also based in science and medicine.
>
> If you don't mind saying Alan, i am interested
> in knowing whether you are a doctor or a nurse.
> I notice that you constantly refer to the World
> Health Organization, and I wonder why you do
> so.
>
> SquigglesI am not in the medical profession but know a lot about medicine based on the struggle to understand this disorder myself..and talking with other knowledgeable people and other doctors that know their stuff.
If you want to read about the one remaining, least commercially, idealological influenced, broad minded organisation left to adjudicate through all of the crap put out by cults and zealots alike, then just read the 57 page report they put out on the subject at:
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/1996/WHO_PSA_96.11.pdf
By the way, just because Healy and Breggin stand up for patient's rights and for full transparency and disclosure from big pharm. doesn't necessarily always make them fall under the influence of the anti med/bzd lobby. They are consumer advocates that want rightfully to hold the corporations to a higher standard.
Of course that doesn't keep the cults from using them and misrepresenting them out of contesxt for their own political and moralistic purposes....
Alan
============================================
Posted by Squiggles on October 22, 2002, at 20:29:17
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working ?? » Squiggles, posted by Alan on October 22, 2002, at 19:15:50
Alan,
I would like to read this, but I have to
print it first. It may take some time as
I have to find someone to print it for me.Thank you--i'm really delighted to have
access to it. Just glancing at the References,
I must say that the familiar names: Bousto,
Ashton, and many others are interesting.I'll get back to you on this and make comments
if that means anything to anyone.Squiggles
Posted by hiba on October 22, 2002, at 23:49:05
In reply to Re: My Klonopin (Clonazepam) isnt working ?? » hiba, posted by Squiggles on October 22, 2002, at 8:04:58
Dear Squiggles,
ACE inhibitors are not in the class of beta blockers. They are very safe medicines if used properly. But what I was trying to prove is, pharmaceutical manuals always carry more than enough warnings to terrify patients. If you are following manuals, you can't use any antibiotics because almost all antibiotics carry a risk of renal toxicity. ACE inhibitors too have this side effect. But simply emphasizing on the risks and toxicity of life-saving medications doesn't make enough fun at all. This is the same with benzos.
Benzos carry a risk of dependence. Yet this risk can vary from person to person. But it is very unfortunate to see a well informed one like you is always emphasizing on the dependence potential of benzos and conveniently ignoring their potential in treating the agony of excessive anxiety and obsessive worries. The dependence potential of benzos is only a very small price a patient has to pay, because if you go through the side effect profile of any benzo, and compare it with other medicines used in psychiatric, or general practice, I am sure you can feel the difference. Almost all antidepressants carry a risk of seizure especially in susceptible individuals. But can you show me a single benzo that will cause a seizure? Rather some benzos are very useful in treating seizure disorders. Older tricyclics carry a risk of agranulocytosis. A potentially life threatening disorder which requires very immediate medical intervension. Newer ADs like mianserin and mirtazepine both have this risk with a higher incidence.There are reports of tardive dyskinesia attributed to prozac use. It is an irreversible movement disorder. But benzos are absolutely free from toxic adverse reactions. The only toxicity that can be attributed to benzos is they cause seizures if stopped abruptly after long-term use . Still a gradual tapering never cause this problem and there is no fatality at all. I have seen some patients with significantly impaired renal function because of the long-term exposure to anti-inflammatory analgesics. And fatal nephrotoxicity is not uncommon in constant antibiotic exposure. Beta-blockers if stopped abruptly after long term use can cause myocardial infarction. This warning can be seen in the safety profile of Visken(pindolol). Still I am not trying to prove all these medicines are toxic and cannot be touched. If used properly under medical supervision, they can be life saving miracles. But if you try to project their risks, there will be no medicine a patient can use.
Now I like to make a comparison.The only risk factor of benzos is their potential for dependence. But what will you chose when you are given a choice between irreversible physiological damage and a slight medical dependence ?About the hollow-feeling: This is what accompanies when you come off prozac and similar SSRIs. It is neither depression nor anxiety. But it is a nothing like feeling. It is very difficult to describe in words. You will not understand what is wrong with you, but there will be only a nothingness inside your head. Terrible! I am still on prozac only to escape from this hellish feeling. Recently I tried to quit prozac and gave wellbutrin a try. But only to boost my depressive symptomatology. So the reinstatement of prozac was inevitable.
Good luck Squiggles, take care!
HIBA
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.