![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by jay on February 10, 2002, at 5:30:25
In reply to Hey a*shole I am trying to help you!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 10, 2002, at 0:26:46
Can't we be a little nicer to each other??...we are all going through pain, an none of us has *the* answer.
Jay
> If you can't tolerate dopaminergics like Wellbutrin & Ritalin because of insomnia & rapid heartbeat why do you think you could tolerate l-deprenyl? That makes no logical sense. Go ahead & be an idiot & try l-deprenyl but you'll regret it later when you are nervous & can't sleep.
>
> The only anti-depressant that doesn't cause insomnia & has no sexual side effects is Remeron, so if you had half a brain you would try that before l-deprenyl which is a potentially dangerous parkinson's disease drug rarely (if ever) used in the US for depression.
>
> And getting psychopharmacology information from erowid.org? That is ridiculous- Erowid is a website largely devoted to disseminating information about how to manufacture illegal drugs like MDMA, GHB & methamphetamine.
>
> Also, you'll do alot better in life if you don't act like such an a*shole to people that are trying to help you, especially if they older than you & have taken many more psychiatric medications than you. You might learn something from their experiences.
> (In other words you don't know sh*t about sh*t!).
> I would tell you good luck but your a di*k so screw you!
>
> 3 Beers.
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > I am beginning to question your advice. You tell me that Zoloft will make you last longer and all that B.S. when you say you haven't gotten laid in 2 years (and you were drunk then). And then you go and reccommend Paxil!! The king of sexual dysfunction???... Shame on you. "It'll help your social skills with women"? Please. That's not my problem. I can hide tenseness and such. I can talk to women for God sakes. There's just an underlying anxiety that won't go away. It's the anxiety and nervousness I feel in those situations. And not just those situations either.. many other SP/anxiety symptoms. You wouldn't understand. Are you just trying to ruin my sex life because yours sucks so bad? Piss off man... thanks for nothing :) -you know the name
> >
> > P.S. - My doctor SPECIALIZES in depression. That's his only field. Adults and young adults. That 3 beer effect isn't doing you much good. Get a job and get a life. Take my advice: Re-read my original post.
> >
> Retard writes:
> >
> > > "As far as sexual side effects go, Zoloft does not affect the ability to get it up but it just makes you last longer. The people in which SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction are mostly middle aged married men who have trouble ejaculating without popping a Viagra! In a teenage male (most of whom suffer from premature ejaculation) it should be a godsend! I am 23 & before Zoloft I was a 2 minute man, but while taking Zoloft I could last over a half an hour- a sex god!- ask women which man they would prefer! It also appears to make orgasms more intense.
> > >
> > > I have been reading about psychopharmacology for about a year now, & with your agitated state the last thing you need is a dopaminergic. Increases in Dopamine help concentration & motivation, but also can cause agitation, insomnia, & in high doses schizophrenic like paranoia. (In fact severly agitated depressives are often given anti-depressants or atypical anti-psychotics that block the actions of dopamine). I previously thought Zoloft may help you since it does have some dopamine reuptake inhibition properties, but it, along with Prozac are the most 'activating' of the SSRIs & often cause insomnia. With your agitation & insomnia you would be better off with Paxil, Celexa or Remeron. (Of the SSRIs Paxil has the worst sexual side effects & Celexa the least side effects).
> > > Remeron has no sexual side effects whatsoever,& it seems to be pro-sexual- 30 or 45 mg are a good starting dose, the higher the dose the less sedating Remeron is- don't take 15 mg it is too sedating. If you find 45 mg is too sedating up to 60 mg can be used & has virtually no side effects).
> > >
> > > If you are prescribed an anti-depressant please do not take Selegeline (l-deprenyl) in addition to it because it can result in a very serious drug interaction (See PDR).
> > >
> > > If you absolutely are set on taking a dopaminergic Mirapex is a far better choice & is actually used as a dopaminergic anti-depressant while L-Deprenyl is used for this purpose very rarely, if ever.
> >
> >
> > ****** THATS THE PROBLEM!!!! COMBINATIONS ARE PROVEN**************************************
> > >
> > > Your response to Adderall is not necessarily similar to the response you will have to a dopaminergic. Adderall releases & blocks the reuputake of BOTH Norepinephrine & Dopamine. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine & dopamine reuputake inhibitor. Ritalin works as a relatively selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If you had a poor response to Ritalin, your response to l-deprenyl will probably just as bad (or worse since l-deprenyl lasts longer). Also, keep in mind that l-phenylalanine increases agitation & insomnia & nervousness.
> > >
> > > I think you are making a mistake that is going to result in more anger & agitation. I think either Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa or Remeron 30-45 mg would be a much better choice for you but it often takes people trials of many different medications before they find the right combination. Zoloft or Paxil will help you to be more sociable, funny, & popular- especially with girls, while Remeron will calm down your agitation/anger/anxiety & gives most people the best-quality sleep of their life.
> > >
> > > If you have health insurance, I would ask your general doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist. I have a feeling that it is going to take awhile to find the right combination to treat your problems & general doctors are simply not knowledgeable enough about psychiatric medications to help you effectively."
> >
> > Butthead.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
Posted by Dinah on February 10, 2002, at 8:27:17
In reply to Whoa! Holy Un-Civil! » 3 Beer Effect, posted by jay on February 10, 2002, at 5:30:25
I agree with you 110%, Jay, but it looked as if that post was directed only to 3 Beer Affect, in which case you really should read further up the thread.
There are a few posts in this thread that can only make me assume that Dr. Bob is away this weekend.
Really, it should be possible to discuss differences in opinion on meds without resorting to name calling. Jay is perfectly right. We should be civil to one another. I'm just questioning the > > directed to in the title.
3 Beer Effect, I read lower down that you're planning to leave this site. I hope it isn't over this. Dr. Bob usually keeps things in much better control.
I really hate to butt in here. (I really do - BELIEVE ME.)
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 10:20:37
In reply to 3 Beer gives sex advice* not laid in years*drunk » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 18:47:53
> Piss off man... thanks for nothing :)
Please be civil, I'd like for the atmosphere here to be supportive.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Bob
PS: Any discussion about posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 10:25:49
In reply to Hey a*shole I am trying to help you!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 10, 2002, at 0:26:46
Posted by Ed on February 10, 2002, at 10:31:37
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
I'll bet anybody a nickle no SSRI will work for Jason911, nor will tricyclics. But I do wonder, given his assertiveness and clear writing, whether he needs an antidepressant at all. I am thinking klonopin alone might do just fine for him. Anyway, if any "antidepressant" is going to do anything for him, it is going to be a dopamine-based antidepressant, such as adrafinil or selegiline. (To that he can add either klonopin, or mirapex or requir or amisulpride, if agitation or nervousness occur).
Posted by Kristi on February 10, 2002, at 13:37:46
In reply to Re: MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Ed on February 10, 2002, at 10:31:37
I found your story to be very interesting, and I agree with some others, you sound very intelligent and more importantly... in tune with yourself. Wow.... if I had that kind of intelligence at your age :) Good luck on wed... and I'll be looking forward to your post. Take care, Kristi
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 13:59:57
In reply to Jason911..., posted by Joel on February 10, 2002, at 4:59:03
Here is what I believe:
> > > Jason911, practically everything you said was pasted directly out of biopsychiatry.com, and i take 5mg of deprenyl with 50mg of HTP.< < <
Why aren't you trying it with phenylalanine (start with 1,000mg/day) and B6!!! That is the number one solution in my book (for what I have anyway). NOTHING I said was pasted from ANYWHERE but my paper. The studies and facts are probably quite similar to what is from biopsychiatry.com. Don't accuse me of anything.
.
.
>
> > > I can tell you that beer man is probably right, I think deprenyl is only good for people who dont respond to other treatments cause it doesnt work as well most of the time. Although for manic depressives with sensitivity to most anti depressants, sure its probably the best choice. For a dysphoric person like yourself, Id try an SSRI.< < <
.
SSRI = sexual dysfunction. I don't want to get into this for the 400th time!!!
>.
>
> > > But to be bluntly honest, 300mg of HTP is a lot of goddamn HTP. i cant find more than 50mg in a pill(and btw HTP means nothing without B-6 so you should get plenty of that as well). Oh and btw, HTP is just as much of a sexual depleter as most SSRI's. Its not a bad thing though cause instead you just DONT WANT sex, which is good.< < <.
.
I know!!! 50mg is all you can probably find. I haven't even considered that 5-HTP option because of the outrageous bill you'd rack up on that much/day. Serotonin is not my problem. Don't want sex? I'm about to go off to college and you think it's good that my interest in sex will be absolutely nill??? I don't know about you but I would kill to get my anxiety gone so that I could have sex from dusk til dawn. Sex means alot to me. And, again, I'm only 17. Disinterest in sex is not healthy.
>
> > > Oh also wellbutrin increases dopamine production and decreases release.< < <Duh. Have you read any of my posts???
Posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:10:14
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
Don't know if you saw my other answer to you but I've copied & pasted, in case you haven't. I really don't know if my information would work for you but since you asked...
I wouldn't try Deprenyl first off. Two of the studies are old (1978 & 1984) & while they're still applicable, there's so much more known about the brain's neurotransmitters now, at least compared to then & the interaction between them is much more complicated than imagined. The catecholamine based theory of depression seems right but I'm not sure our approach is always right.
I do agree that it's important to provide the necessary precursors in our diet for neurotransmitter synthesis which is why I foolow a GOOD, balanced diet & take extra supplementation. I can feel the difference, subtle but real nonetheless, when I take nutritional yeast flakes (high in B complex vitamins & many minerals) & from when I get lazy & let it slide.
Like you, I have serious problems with motivation, concentration, & focus. I also have mild enough narcolepsy & ADHD plus regular depression, worse in winter. When I was young, I 'self-medicated' too & of all the drugs taken, it was speed (meth) that was the most wonderful. So wonderful, it scared me as I wasn't ignorant of addiction, seeing it in others. It made me feel SO normal, but I was too scared to ever use it again.
When Dexedrine was prescribed for me many years later, it felt good too though not as powerful. But I hated the way I'd feel when the dose wore off - sleepy & blah again. And I noticed if I used it regularly, it started to lose effect. I nneded frequent 'holidays' from it. Ritalin felt even more up & down.
I read about the use of Provigil (modafinil) for narcolepsy in a science journal & in researching it found adrafinil & this forum where I lurked for a while. Adrafinil has been my god-send giving me a life again with enthusiasm. Rather than write it all out again, I hope you don't mind me providing a link to an old post. There's a number of us modafinil/adrafinil users here who really love the stuff. Rather than inhibiting or blocking re-uptake of transmitters, it seems to increase the brain's over-all metabolism. It's still not well understood (but neither are traditional ADs).
Here's my old posting link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020116/msgs/90699.html (If you want to check out more posts on adrafinil/modafinil, I'm sure you know how to.)And here's an article on adrafinil (it's main metabolite is modafinil [Provigil]) from CNS Drug Reviews, 1999:
http://www.nevapress.com/cnsdr/full/5/3/193.pdf
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:12:05
In reply to Re: MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Ed on February 10, 2002, at 10:31:37
Well thank you for your compliments! My writing does indeed make it appear that I would have no problem whatsoever, but it's just that I am so dedicated to finding a solution to my problem. Even good writers can get depression. I don't think the SSRI's will work, either; just cause more problems for me. Tricyclics are out of the question. They always have been. I agree that dopamine + mild SP/anxiety symptoms are the problems that need to be solved. And come Wednesday, I should be starting selegiline+klonopin. I am 75% sure that dopamine is the problem here. I'll be letting everyone know how it goes... God bless - Jason911
.
p.s. I'm hoping the 2mg of Klono in the morning will help any anxiety that could be caused by the deprenyl. Again, HOPING. :) Peace.
..
> I'll bet anybody a nickle no SSRI will work for Jason911, nor will tricyclics. But I do wonder, given his assertiveness and clear writing, whether he needs an antidepressant at all. I am thinking klonopin alone might do just fine for him. Anyway, if any "antidepressant" is going to do anything for him, it is going to be a dopamine-based antidepressant, such as adrafinil or selegiline. (To that he can add either klonopin, or mirapex or requir or amisulpride, if agitation or nervousness occur).
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:13:58
In reply to Re:Jason911 , posted by Kristi on February 10, 2002, at 13:37:46
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:20:14
In reply to Re: Your Med Combo and Ideas » Jason911, posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:10:14
I don't believe in stimulants for depression. Like I said in my other posts, they are only a temporary solution. Ups and downs? I wish nobody had to go through that. Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes on Wednesday and if my proposed solution proves true. God Bless - Jason911
> Don't know if you saw my other answer to you but I've copied & pasted, in case you haven't. I really don't know if my information would work for you but since you asked...
>
> I wouldn't try Deprenyl first off. Two of the studies are old (1978 & 1984) & while they're still applicable, there's so much more known about the brain's neurotransmitters now, at least compared to then & the interaction between them is much more complicated than imagined. The catecholamine based theory of depression seems right but I'm not sure our approach is always right.
>
> I do agree that it's important to provide the necessary precursors in our diet for neurotransmitter synthesis which is why I foolow a GOOD, balanced diet & take extra supplementation. I can feel the difference, subtle but real nonetheless, when I take nutritional yeast flakes (high in B complex vitamins & many minerals) & from when I get lazy & let it slide.
>
> Like you, I have serious problems with motivation, concentration, & focus. I also have mild enough narcolepsy & ADHD plus regular depression, worse in winter. When I was young, I 'self-medicated' too & of all the drugs taken, it was speed (meth) that was the most wonderful. So wonderful, it scared me as I wasn't ignorant of addiction, seeing it in others. It made me feel SO normal, but I was too scared to ever use it again.
>
> When Dexedrine was prescribed for me many years later, it felt good too though not as powerful. But I hated the way I'd feel when the dose wore off - sleepy & blah again. And I noticed if I used it regularly, it started to lose effect. I nneded frequent 'holidays' from it. Ritalin felt even more up & down.
>
> I read about the use of Provigil (modafinil) for narcolepsy in a science journal & in researching it found adrafinil & this forum where I lurked for a while. Adrafinil has been my god-send giving me a life again with enthusiasm. Rather than write it all out again, I hope you don't mind me providing a link to an old post. There's a number of us modafinil/adrafinil users here who really love the stuff. Rather than inhibiting or blocking re-uptake of transmitters, it seems to increase the brain's over-all metabolism. It's still not well understood (but neither are traditional ADs).
>
> Here's my old posting link:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020116/msgs/90699.html (If you want to check out more posts on adrafinil/modafinil, I'm sure you know how to.)
>
> And here's an article on adrafinil (it's main metabolite is modafinil [Provigil]) from CNS Drug Reviews, 1999:
> http://www.nevapress.com/cnsdr/full/5/3/193.pdf
>
>
>
Posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:27:07
In reply to IsoM: Thank you very much. I hate those stims-, posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:20:14
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:32:52
In reply to Jason911..., posted by Joel on February 10, 2002, at 4:59:03
You try to make me look like a fraud!!! Shame on you. Here is the post regarding selegiline and it resembles nothing of my previous posts. Facts like what dosages retain MAO-B selectivity are well known and not taken from some stupid site. That is a very informative site, though. I believe everything stated is true in there.
Here it is (and I believe it only adds to the points I have been trying to make):
"SELEGILINE (l-deprenyl)
A recent New York study showed that smokers had on average 40% less of the enzyme, monoamine oxidase type-B, in their brains than non-smokers. Levels returned to normal on their giving up smoking. Not merely is the extra dopamine in the synapses rewarding. The level of MAO-b inhibition smokers enjoy apparently contributes to their reduced incidence of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease. Unfortunately they are liable to die horribly and prematurely of other diseases first.One option which the dopamine-craving nicotine addict might wish to explore is switching to the (relatively) selective MAO-b inhibitor selegiline, better known as l-deprenyl. Normally the brain's irreplaceable complement of 30-40 thousand odd dopaminergic cells tends to die off at around 13% per decade in adult life. Their death diminishes the quality and intensity of experience. It also saps what in more ontologically innocent times might have been called one's life-force. Eighty percent loss of dopamine neurons results in Parkinson's disease, often prefigured by depression. Deprenyl has an anti-oxidant , immune-system-boosting and dopamine-cell-sparing effect. Its use boosts levels of tyrosine hydroxylase, growth hormone, superoxide dismutase and the production of key interleukins. Deprenyl offers protection against DNA damage and oxidative stress by hydroxyl and peroxyl radical trapping; and against excitotoxic damage from glutamate.
Whatever the full explanation, deprenyl-driven MAOI-users, unlike cigarette smokers, are likely to be around to enjoy its distinctive benefits for a long time to come, possibly longer than their drug-naïve contemporaries. For in low doses, deprenyl enhances life-expectancy, of rats at least, by 20% and more. It enhances drive, libido and motivation; sharpens cognitive performance both subjectively and on a range of objective tests; serves as a useful adjunct in the palliative treatment of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease; and makes you feel good too. It is used successfully to treat canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome (CDS) in dogs. At dosages of below 10-15 mg daily, deprenyl retains its selectivity for the type-B MAO iso-enzyme. At MAO-B-selective dosages, deprenyl doesn't provoke the "cheese-effect"; tyramine is also broken down by MAO type-A. Deprenyl isn't addictive, which probably reflects its different delivery-mechanism and delayed reward compared to inhaled tobacco smoke. Whether the Government would welcome the billions of pounds of lost revenue and a swollen population of energetic non-taxpayers that a switch in people's MAOI habits might entail is unclear."Does anyone think I pasted anything from this article???? Joel, why would you accuse me of such a thing. You are the least bit perceptive. From what point do you think I... you're full of it. Really! You probably aren't in the best mental health so I understand. -Jason911
.
.> Jason911, practically everything you said was pasted directly out of biopsychiatry.com, and i take 5mg of deprenyl with 50mg of HTP.
>
Posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:33:00
In reply to IsoM: Thank you very much. I hate those stims-, posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:20:14
Jason, I'm not sure if you read my posting correctly. I'm NOT advocating taking stims - I think they're a stop-gap measure only. Did you read the report from Drug Reviews on adrafinil? Even if you don't wish to take it, read it over for interest's sake - you like to learn. It's got some interesting info there.
I'm not trying to change your mind, but if the Deprenyl combo doesn't do what you hoped for, consider what I wrote, please. Adrafinil/modafinil seems to improve over-all brain metabolism & has a strong effect on dopamine related behaviours - motivation, contentment, quiet joy, etc.
Good luck on Wednesday!
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:34:29
In reply to Wouldn't Place Provigil In Same Class As Stims (nm) » Jason911, posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:27:07
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:59:52
In reply to Re: SSRI is risky!!!!! » Bekka H., posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 0:18:27
Maybe this will make all you people set on SSRI's understand where I am coming from. And this particular guy seems to have had long term sexual side-effects even after stopping the meds. Read and see where I'm coming from (he tells it like it is):
ethan writes-
>
>
I will not tolerate sexual side effects with these drugs (it isn't a matter of whether I can or not -- I simply WILL not). I've been down the Paxil and Zoloft roads (forget Prozac) and found that for me the loss of sexual function exacerbated my depression GREATLY, while the drug's "benefit" was simply to flatten out my personality and mood. This is called "Turning Into A Zombie."The loss of sexual function made me more frustrated than I had been, made me isolate because I was ashamed I couldn't "function" anymore, and the damage from those months and years of trying these drugs have taken their toll on my self-esteem. Today the meds I take are not supposed to have sexual side effects, and yet I still have difficulties -- which are no doubt the aftermath of being put through the ringer with drugs that adversely affect sexual function, along with the original and continuing effects of the depression.
I know you're joking about the hooker (maybe not), and it's good to see you're trying to make light of the problem through humor, but the long term psychological damage sexual dysfunction can have on you is NOT GOOD.
Advice that was given me and which I pass along is:
Talk to your doctor about getting OFF the meds you are on that are robbing you of your sex drive OR see whether you can add a med that makes you more spunky (i.e., the side effects of one drug that offsets the side effects of another drug. Serzone was quoted me as one drug that can offset sexual side effects in other drugs, for example...WB is anot supposed to adversely affect sex drive, etc.
Naturally it depends on what is wrong with you, what you have tried before and what does and doesn't work for your condition (we all respond differently to different drugs and as much as the docs know about the meds they are still in the dark about plenty -- hence we are all our own guinea pigs). If sexual side effects are bothering you even a little you have to take that seriously and demand your pdoc look into and discuss with you every other treatment possibility available for your condition.
A lot has to do with diet and exercise, too. Exercise especially. Most of us are sitting on our beee-hinds typing away on this BB when we could be getting a half hour of aerobic exercise (even just fast walking). I know that's a big issue for me, one which definitely also affects my capacity to function sexually. I bet most of us with depression don't exercise nearly enough, and if we did we might be able to take less meds to get enough benefit and deal with less side effects. Just a thought my doc passed along to me.
For men especially to be robbed of their sexual identity (being relegated to the status of eunuch) is perhaps the most discouraging and underrated liability of taking psychotropic medications which adversely affect sex drive. Whether it's right or wrong, many men equate their intrinsic self worth with their ability to "rise" to various sexual occasions (so to speak). That aspect of man isn't going to change. It is, however, up to each of us to work with our doctors to find solutions to our conditions that do not emasculate us.
Sex is one of the easiest things to find in this world if you really want it. There are plenty of people who are willing to have sex for a price, infinitely more who would be willing to do so "recreationally" if approached with respect and honesty. Not isolating and making ourselves available to potential partners is part of the problem also. We can sit on a BB and type away and not be "out there" meeting people. Incidentally, as soon as I finish typing this, I'm outa here to head up to the local watering hole and see if I get lucky. It takes forcing yourself to be social, or else go to a strip club and get a lap dance, or whatever. But don't isolate. Perhaps the worst thing about drugs that rob us of our sexual abilities is that we are even denied the ability to masturbate.
It's our choice whether we take the drugs prescribed for us and when we find the sexual side effects ruining us, our responsibility to take action. Believe me, I know -- I learned the "hard" way (bad pun).
ethan
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 15:46:01
In reply to Re: Jason911...ARRRRRGGHHHHH!!!! » Joel, posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 13:59:57
> > practically everything you said was pasted directly out of biopsychiatry.com
>
> NOTHING I said was pasted from ANYWHERE but my paper. The studies and facts are probably quite similar to what is from biopsychiatry.com. Don't accuse me of anything.That's right, no false accusations, here, please.
> > Oh also wellbutrin increases dopamine production and decreases release.
>
> Duh. Have you read any of my posts???But no sarcasm, either, OK?
Bob
Posted by manowar on February 11, 2002, at 12:55:39
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
Are you just *hitting us?
Damn, if you are 17 though-- go to college, get your PHD and become a shrink. Better yet--be a chemist and develop the perfect pill for us.
--Tim
Posted by Joel on February 11, 2002, at 15:24:24
In reply to Re: please be civil » Joel » Jason911, posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 15:46:01
> > > practically everything you said was pasted directly out of biopsychiatry.com
> >
> > NOTHING I said was pasted from ANYWHERE but my paper. The studies and facts are probably quite similar to what is from biopsychiatry.com. Don't accuse me of anything.
>
> That's right, no false accusations, here, please.
>
> > > Oh also wellbutrin increases dopamine production and decreases release.
> >
> > Duh. Have you read any of my posts???
>
> But no sarcasm, either, OK?
>
> BobOk I was wrong about one thing, it wasnt listed in biophyschiatry.com. That was my fault, I knew I had read an acticle about that somewhere that looked identical and I ASSUMED it was from there and for that Im terribly sorry. But I checked and found the acticle and yes, you did paste things or copy them word for word. The article can be found elsewhere.
Ill show you some examples of OBVIOUS copy pasting.
This is what you said:
"It wasn't until the 1990s that Knoll's deprenyl research took a new direction. Working with rat brain stems, rabbit pulmonary and ear arteries, frog hearts and rats in shuttle boxes, Knoll discovered a new mode of action of deprenyl that he believes explains its widespread clinical utility. Knoll discovered that deprenyl [selegiline] (and it's cousin, PEA) are "catecholamine enhancers". Catecholamines refers to the inter-related neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenaline, and adrenaline. Catecholamines are the transmitters for key activating brain circuits - the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and the locus coeruleus. The neurons from these two brain circuits project from the brain stem, through the mid-brain, to the cerebral cortex. They help to maintain focus, concentration, alertness and effortful attention."This is what the report on the website said:
"During the 1990s Knoll’s deprenyl research took a new direction. Working with rat brain stems, rabbit pulmonary and ear arteries, frog hearts and rats in shuttle boxes, Knoll discovered a new mode of action of deprenyl that he believes explains its widespread clinical utility. (2,16) Knoll discovered that deprenyl (and its “cousin”, PEA) are “catecholamine activity enhancers”.Catecholamines refers to the inter-related neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenalin, and adrenalin. Catecholamines are the transmitters for key activating brain circuits - the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and the locus coeruleus. The neurons of the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and locus coeruleus project from the brain stem, through the mid-brain, to the cerebral cortex. They help to maintain focus, concentration, alertness and effortful attention. (17)"
Again, you said:
"Here's how it works: when an electrical impulse travels down the length of a neuron - from the recieving dendrite, through the cell body, and down the transmitting axon - it triggers the release of packets of nerotransmitters into the synaptic gap. These transmitters hook onto receptors of the next neuron, triggering an electrical impulse which then travels down that neuron , causing yet another transmitter release. What Knoll and colleagues discovered through their highly technical experiments is that deprenyl and PEA act to more efficiently couple the release of neurotransmitters to the electrical impulse that triggers their release. In other words, deprenyl (and PEA) cause a larger release of transmitters in response to a given electrical impulse. It's like "turning up the volume" on catecholamine nerve cell activity. And this may be clinically very useful in depression where there may be under-activity of both dopamine and noradrenalin neurons."The report said:
"When an electrical impulse travels down the length of a neuron - from the receiving dendrite, through the cell body, and down the transmitting axon - it triggers the release of packets of neurotransmitters into the synaptic gap. These transmitters hook onto receptors of the next neuron, triggering an electrical impulse which then travels down that neuron, causing yet another transmitter release. What Knoll and colleagues discovered through their highly technical experiments is that deprenyl and PEA act to more efficiently couple the release of neurotransmitters to the electrical impulse that triggers their release. (2,16)In other words, deprenyl (and PEA) cause a larger release of transmitters in response to a given electrical impulse. It’s like “turning up the volume” on catecholamine nerve cell activity. And this may be clinically very useful in various contexts - such as Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimer’s disease, where the nigrostriatal tract and mesolimbic-cortical circuits under-function (1,17), as well as in depression, where they may be under-activity of both dopamine and noradrenalin neurons. (18,19)"
Last time, You said:
"Even deprenyl in itself has shown in autopsy studies to not only increase dopamine levels by 40-70% in Parkinson patients but increase PEA levels 1300-3500%! You see, PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits. PEA has an extremely rapid turnover due to its rapid and continuous breakdown by MAO-B. Thus deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer has a dual mode of action. At MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl has a huge catecholamine enhancing effects due to the major increases in PEA levels. Many authors have pointed out the probable dopamine neuron activity enhancing effect of PEA in Parkinson patients taking deprenyl. Knoll's discovery of PEA's catecholamine activity enhancer effect now explains this PEA dopamine-enhancing effect."And the report said...:
"Autopsy studies have shown that while deprenyl increases dopamine levels in Parkinson patient brains by only 40-70%, deprenyl increases PEA levels 1300 - 3500%! (14,22) PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits. Paterson and colleagues have shown that PEA has an extremely rapid turnover due to its rapid and continuous breakdown by MAO-B. (21) Thus deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer activity has a dual mode of action. At low, non-MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl has a direct catecholamine activity enhancer activity.At higher, MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl creates an additional catecholamine activity enhancer effect, due to the huge increases in brain PEA levels that deprenyl causes, PEA also being a catecholamine activity enhancer substance. Many authors have pointed out the probable dopamine neuron activity enhancing effect of PEA in Parkinson patients taking deprenyl. (14, 15, 22)
Knoll’s discovery of PEA’s catecholamine activity enhancer effect now explains this PEA dopamine-enhancing effect."
Amazingly, a lot of these "papers" look the same to me."NOTHING I said was pasted from ANYWHERE but my paper. The studies and facts are probably quite similar to what is from biopsychiatry.com. Don't accuse me of anything."
Oh really? See I take offence to that. You made it sound like you had done tons of information on deprenyl, but really most of your paper was about your troubles and other copied postings from other acticles. In actuallity, youve never tried deprenyl. People like me who have, know that its VERY mild in comparison to other anti-depressants. Now in some cases that may be a good thing, but it is not a miracle drug by any means.
Also that website you got most of that information from actually SELLS deprenyl overseas, theyll say whatever they can to convince you to buy it. Anyways just think about what I said, Im not accusing you I hope you understand that we all know quite a bit about anti depressants too, and it seems rather foolish to expect us to believe you when you dont believe us.
Posted by Jason911 on February 11, 2002, at 17:11:08
In reply to So you didnt copy/paste? Whats this? » Dr. Bob, posted by Joel on February 11, 2002, at 15:24:24
Hey! That IS where I got my paper. I was looking all over for where I actually got the information and was pissed off when you could ORDER the stuff there. But, in another light, I DO believe what the paper has to say, as it makes a very valid argument. You say it's very mild. Have you taken it with 1 or 2g of phenylalanine?? That's the key here. Vitamin B6? And other people's posts have been an indicator to me as well. People have said on this site (and you can search for yourself to anyone who's interested in trying it) that it has worked extremely well. One used the phrase "life-changing". Another had brilliant success with what I want to take (Selegiline + Klonopin). I still believe just as strong in it as before, though. And sorry for going off on you regarding where I got the info from. That site from which I printed my papers from were what I used on my original post. But thank you though, because I was looking all over for that site again, to try and see if there was any more info. But, again, I wouldn't doubt Mr. Knoll and his discoveries and his theories on how the drug works. He's not getting any dividends from the sale of the drug on that site. Oh, well. Wish me luck on Wednesday. God bless -Jason911
P.S. I didn't copy and paste. I was taking the info from my paper and re-typed for my post. It was very tedious and took me over 4 hours to get my entire posts done. Somewhere from 11:30pm - 3:40. Wheeew!
Posted by Jason911 on February 11, 2002, at 17:14:34
In reply to NO WAY YOU'RE 17! » Jason911, posted by manowar on February 11, 2002, at 12:55:39
Man, I really hope you guys aren't thinking that way of me because of the technical writing used in my original posts! Argh! I'd be embarrased. I used the technical information from the papers I had and, thanks to Joel, now know what site I got them from. -Jason911
> Are you just *hitting us?
>
> Damn, if you are 17 though-- go to college, get your PHD and become a shrink. Better yet--be a chemist and develop the perfect pill for us.
>
> --Tim
Posted by Jason911 on February 11, 2002, at 17:29:49
In reply to Re: So you didnt copy/paste? Whats this? » Joel, posted by Jason911 on February 11, 2002, at 17:11:08
Joel, what irritates me is that you make everyone think that I know this information off the top of my head. You accuse of copy and pasting, like I am trying to decieve people of what I actually know. DID YOU NOT READ MY ARTICLE ALL THE WAY THROUGH!!!!! Obviously not. I said right away:
"This past week, I have been spending hours upon hours trying to find information on all kinds of medicine from all kinds of places: from www.erowid.com to this very forum, Psycho-Babble! By the way, I just became a member (it's past midnight now and officially 2/8/02) today and am going to be an active participant in all further discussions and help people based on my experiences with current and upcoming medications, by the way. Anyhoo, I came across an article somehow on deprenyl. The more and more I researched it, the more and more exited I began to get. I found a 5 or 6 page bio of deprenyl's discoverer, Dr. Joseph Knoll, and the uses of the medicine. It explained basically everything I spent hours researching on in a single report which I have printed out and am bringing to my visit next week. It talks about it's unique selective MAO-B inhibiting properties, catecholamine activity enhancing ability, neuroprotection from various neurotoxins, anti-aging possibilities, and most importantly its effectiveness in teating depression."
What else do you want me to say? Geez. How could you be so critical when you didn't read in between the lines? Maybe, you even neglected to read the final paragraph, which I feel is important as well. You recognizing info shouldn't have lead to accusations. I told you that all my info was from the 5 or 6 page printout!!!! I felt all the info was necessary to what the facts where regarding deprenyl. Do you understand? -Jason911
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 11, 2002, at 19:27:34
In reply to JOEL, what irritates me is the fact that you say t » Jason911, posted by Jason911 on February 11, 2002, at 17:29:49
> DID YOU NOT READ MY ARTICLE ALL THE WAY THROUGH!!!!! Obviously not.
Please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that they could take as accusatory. I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration (or emailed to me directly).
Posted by kid47 on February 12, 2002, at 15:53:01
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
Hi. I too am impressed with your writing abilities. You express yourself quite well. Another thing I have noticed is an intensity & moodiness in your writing. Read up on the different bipolar disorders & cyclothymia, & see if you find anything that might strike a chord with how you feel. Unfortunately this whole psychopharmacology thing is a bit of a crap shoot & there is a lot of trial & error involved as you are aware. Plus we all have differing reactions to the same meds. As you've seen, your experience on a drug might be polar opposite to someone elses. You have the right idea to keep yourself informed & be your own best advocate.
Not to discount the level of discomfort you feel, but it is not unheard of to be terribly nervous ( to the point of not being able to perform) when faced with a potential sexual encounter at any age let alone17. I'm one of those middle-aged married guys someone posted about but I still recall the best romantic relationships in my youth. They were with females with whom I had established a very comfortable rapport before even considering something physical. I tried to find someone who had a go slow attitude. (Not necessarily a popular stance for a guy growing up in the 60's & 70's-plus I played in a Rock band & was expected to be a real hound) As you know there are many bright & experienced folks her at PB. I know of a least one doc (besides Dr. Bob) & a pharmacist who post here. Your request for input from this board was a wise move & i know you'll give any advice discerning credence. Anyways, I wish you succes in whuppin' the old black dog. Take care
kid
PS-sorry you got blocked. Please post in a week & apprise us of your progress.
> THE PERSON WHO READS THIS IS CARING AND PATIENT (IT'S LONG) AND WILL TRY TO GIVE ME SOME SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHAT THEY THINK OF MY SITUATION, EITHER FROM EXPERIENCE OR SPECULATION, AND IF MY PLAN FOR MY NEXT VISIT IS HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION :) WHO EVER READS THIS THROUGH IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!! YOU MAY EVEN LEARN SOMETHING NEW... I TRIED TO KEEP IT AS DETAILED AS POSSIBLE...
>
> * * *
>
> About two months ago I was diagnosed with depression. The depressed mood started when I was in about the 7th grade. I, however, was pretty young and thought this was just normal and me being what my mother called "a lazy-ass who's give a sh*t was broke". In the 9th grade, I experimented with pot and instantly fell in love (which my doctor now describes as "self-medicating") with it's effects. That was (except for shrooming a couple of times) the only drug I've ever done. I didn't even (and still don't) smoke cigarettes, or drink, or do acid, or anything like that. From what I read on the net, for the most part, pot didn't seem extremely harmful except for possible lung damage over the long term. But that was long-term... besides, I was a basketball player and stayed in great shape anyway. It was the only way I felt good. It was so easy to just go smoke a bowl and be set for a while. I am 17 now (senior in high school) and recently was put on probation for possesion of pot. So I HAD to quit, which wasn't hard to do, but I went back to feeling like crap. A month later I decided to get help from a doctor.
>
> I live in a suburb of Kansas City and am seeing one of the most highly regarded doctors in the area. My Mom is a nurse and told me that, anyway. The doctor told me that he thought I did indeed have depression and, based on the info that I gave him about myself (low motivation, lack of concentration, everything seems flat, low sex drive, short fuse/easily agitated, pot user for a few years as well), he said it was probably dopamine related. He put me on Wellbutrin to start out with. Our insurance didn't cover the SR form so I had to go with the older version and worked my way up (as instructed) to 150mg/morning and 150/mg noon. The first week sucked: my heart would beat pretty hard (in class, I could look at my chest and see my shirt flapping with every beat) which worried me and of course led to an increased heart rate :( Worse, it was IMPOSSIBLE to get to sleep. I called him about these problems and he then prescribed 1/2mg of Klonopin (clonazepam) before bedtime and told me that the heart thing was my body getting use to it and that it should go away "soon". Klonopin helped almost the first or second night on it (I got to sleep anyway) and my heart situation went away shortly thereafter. On my next scheduled visit a month later, I told him I didn't think it was helping my mood, concentration, or anything other than the fact that it relieved my short-fuse and helped my frequent anger problems (which was progress, I guess). This explained why, which I told the doctor, teachers had told me that they said I was "more pleasant to be around" or I didn't "look as angry all the time." I said I didn't notice anything other than that. Everything was still flat. I still wasn't motivated to do things as easy as get up and go to the movies with my friends or go to school basketball games. He said "You're still taking the Wellbutrin like I said right? 300mg a day?". I told him I was, and then prescribed me 5mg of Adderall in the morning and another 5mg at noon (to help concentration and further increase dopamine levels).
>
> I didn't feel anything... other than the fact that it was screwing with my appetite so much that I was only eating one meal a day for a bit and had to force myself to eat a second for the next couple days! Those last couple days I was out of school as well, and slept-in to about 11 AM and took my morning dose with the noon dose with the mentality of keeping the same amount of medicine going in my system every day. My Dad, though, would kindly wake me up at 8 or so to give me my Wellbutrin. The Adderall, I figured, would wake me up and I wanted to sleep so I simply postponed it. After using the Adderall for those 4 or 5 days, with no apparent change (except for loss of appetite), I finally decided to call and tell him of my troublesome results. The nurse said he was out for the day, so I left a message with her (BTW, she also told me never to double up doses again) and said she'd try to get ahold of him. She called back later that evening and said he wanted me to try 15mg in the morning but none at noon and if I still wasn't feeling any change in mood to call her back in two days. Whatever. 2 days passed and I still wasn't feeling a thing (which, after doing research on the net recently, I find quite strange.. I should have been feeling SOMETHING), told that to the nurse and she then instructed me to quit the Adderall altogether for two days to see if I really was kidding myself (or whatever the reason was) and call her back after that time and tell her how I felt. 2 days and sure enough, nothing. I called her (which was 2/7/02- the day I wrote this) and told her, at which point I said I was going to stop taking the Adderall for reasons I wanted to explain to the doctor, and scheduled to see him 3 weeks earlier (which will be Wednesday the 13th). Here is where I then developed what I believe will be my soution.
>
> This past week, I have been spending hours upon hours trying to find information on all kinds of medicine from all kinds of places: from www.erowid.com to this very forum, Psycho-Babble! By the way, I just became a member (it's past midnight now and officially 2/8/02) today and am going to be an active participant in all further discussions and help people based on my experiences with current and upcoming medications, by the way. Anyhoo, I came across an article somehow on deprenyl. The more and more I researched it, the more and more exited I began to get. I found a 5 or 6 page bio of deprenyl's discoverer, Dr. Joseph Knoll, and the uses of the medicine. It explained basically everything I spent hours researching on in a single report which I have printed out and am bringing to my visit next week. It talks about it's unique selective MAO-B inhibiting properties, catecholamine activity enhancing ability, neuroprotection from various neurotoxins, anti-aging possibilities, and most importantly its effectiveness in teating depression.
>
> I brought it up the last time I met with the doctor but he said that, to his knowledge, it didn't work very well with depression and that he'd never heard of it used for this in quite some time and was mainly used as a medicine for Parkinsons and that it wasn't the best choice, in his opinion. Knowing as much as I know now, I believe he is unaware of some of deprenyl (selegiline HCL - Eldepryl in the US)'s potential benefits and recent findings. Who could blame him? He deals with psychotropic drugs that deal with depression and few doctors use deprenyl for this purpose. All that he knew was that at MAO-B selective doses (above 15mg, it becomes a full MAOI) it was not SOLELY effective at treating depression. My paper describes the studies that were done on atypical depressives, tretment-resistant depressives, and major despressives, and that effective treatment levels required dosages in the 20-30, even 60mg range. Well above MAO-B selective doses. Even though the treatments were effective and had low side-effects, there are risks involved with all-out MAOI's like diet restrictions (such as the "cheese effect"). So I can see where he's coming from in this light. But, there were three studies that suggested effective antidepressant action at selective MAO-B inhibiting doses.
>
> That study was just the beginning of the paper's deprenyl-depression studies. What's eye-catching is what followed: "In 1978 Mendelwicz and Youdim treated 14 depressed patients with low-dose deprenyl (< or =10mg) plus 300mg 5-HTP 3 times daily for 32 days. Deprenyl potentiated the antidepressant effect of 5-HTP in 10/14 patients. 5-HTP enhances brain serotonin metabolism, which is frequently a problem in depression, while deprenyl enhances dopamine/noradrenalin activity" (how? - I'll explain in a bit). "Under activity of brain dopamine, noradrenalin (norepinephrine), and serototin neural systems are the most frequently cited biochemical causes of depression. So, deprenyl plus 5-HTP would seem a natural antidepressant combination."
>
> The next one gets even more promising! "In 1984 Birkmayer, Knoll, and colleagues published their successful results in 155 unipolar depressed patients who were extremely treatment-resistant. Patients were given 5-10mg deprenyl plus 250mg phenylalanine daily. Approximately 70% of their patients achieved full remission, typically within 1-3 weeks. Some patients were continued up to 2 years on treatment without loss of antidepressant action. The combination of deprenyl plus phenylalanine enhances brain PEA activity, while both deprenyl and PEA enhance brain catecholamine activity. Thus deprenyl plus phenylalanine is also a natural antidepressant combination."
>
> Almost equally impressive: "In 1991 H. Sabelli reported successful results treating 10 drug-resistant major depressive disorder patients. Sabelli used 5mg deprenyl daily along with 100mg vitamin B6, and 1-3 grams phenylalanine twice daily as treatment. 6 of 10 patients viewed their depressive episodes terminated within 2-3 days! Global Assessment Scale scores confirmed the patients' subjective experiences. Vitamin B6 activates the enzyme that converts phenylalanine to PEA, so the combination of the three is a bio-logical way to enhance both PEA and catecholamine brain function, and thus to diminish depression."
>
> Here is why the catecholamine enhancement is so important in treating depression, especially in those whose depression can be related directly to dopamine under-activity (as in my case). You see, even if deprenyl's oringinally hypothesized mode of action - directly increasing synaptic dopamine levels through MAO-B inhibition - is false, deprenyl's MAO-B inhibition still provides part of its benefit.
>
> It wasn't until the 1990s that Knoll's deprenyl research took a new direction. Working with rat brain stems, rabbit pulmonary and ear arteries, frog hearts and rats in shuttle boxes, Knoll discovered a new mode of action of deprenyl that he believes explains its widespread clinical utility. Knoll discovered that deprenyl [selegiline] (and it's cousin, PEA) are "catecholamine enhancers". Catecholamines refers to the inter-related neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenaline, and adrenaline. Catecholamines are the transmitters for key activating brain circuits - the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and the locus coeruleus. The neurons from these two brain circuits project from the brain stem, through the mid-brain, to the cerebral cortex. They help to maintain focus, concentration, alertness and effortful attention. One of the reasons the doctor put me on Adderall! - but it seems obvious Adderall is only a temporary fix as it is well documented that the human body develops tolerance (whether it's 6 days or 2 years, everyone's different) to amphetamines, including d-amphetamine, quite quickly. Plus, amphetamines are known to damage dopamine cells but whether or not the damage is done at clincally prescribed doses is not yet known and that scares me especially after long term use AND from what I hear, discontinuing use just sends the person right back into the hole it once lifted them out of). Deprenyl would seem much better (it even protects your dopamine cells from damage/neurotoxicity) :) Dopamine is also the transmitter for a brainstem circuit - the nigrostriatal tract - which connects the the substantia nigra (which deprenyl enhances) and the striatum, a nerve tract that helps control bodily movement.
>
> Here's how it works: when an electrical impulse travels down the length of a neuron - from the recieving dendrite, through the cell body, and down the transmitting axon - it triggers the release of packets of nerotransmitters into the synaptic gap. These transmitters hook onto receptors of the next neuron, triggering an electrical impulse which then travels down that neuron , causing yet another transmitter release. What Knoll and colleagues discovered through their highly technical experiments is that deprenyl and PEA act to more efficiently couple the release of neurotransmitters to the electrical impulse that triggers their release. In other words, deprenyl (and PEA) cause a larger release of transmitters in response to a given electrical impulse. It's like "turning up the volume" on catecholamine nerve cell activity. And this may be clinically very useful in depression where there may be under-activity of both dopamine and noradrenalin neurons. And the key here is the addition of the supplement phenylalanine to the deprenyl to help significantly increase PEA levels (one need only look to the results of the above studies to come to that conclusion). Even deprenyl in itself has shown in autopsy studies to not only increase dopamine levels by 40-70% in Parkinson patients but increase PEA levels 1300-3500%! You see, PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits. PEA has an extremely rapid turnover due to its rapid and continuous breakdown by MAO-B. Thus deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer has a dual mode of action. At MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl has a huge catecholamine enhancing effects due to the major increases in PEA levels. Many authors have pointed out the probable dopamine neuron activity enhancing effect of PEA in Parkinson patients taking deprenyl. Knoll's discovery of PEA's catecholamine activity enhancer effect now explains this PEA dopamine-enhancing effect.
>
> So my proposal on Wednesday will be to take 10mg a day of selegiline, 600mg of phenylalanine supplement, as well as a good amount of vitamin's C and E, and 1000mg of NAC. The reason for the latter is that deprenyl increases only 2 of the 3 main antioxidants made in the brain. SOD, and catalase to a lesser extent. But the third, glutathione isn't raised at all so it is recommended by Knoll that one take around 1000mg NAC (which increases glutathione levels) to normalize these levels. Good amounts of vitamin C and E help very much as antioxidants themselves. I will ask to discontinue Adderall and taper off the Wellbutrin as well. Wellbutrin is now said to be mainly a noradrenalin reputake inhibitor while only mildly binding to the dopamine uptake sites and actually decreasing the amount of dopamine that is manufactured! I believe that Eldepryl and around 600mg/day of phenylalaine will take care of the noradrenalin AND dopamine especially.
>
> I also am going to tell him (and I don't know why the HELL I didn't tell him this before.. I didn't even think of it) that I want to take that Klonopin (2mg) in the morning as well as 1mg a night (.5mg isn't working anymore). I have some social anxiety/phobia characteristics that I need addressed and I hear it works wonders in people with SP or similar syptoms and is even enhanced by deprenyl! I get VERY nervous and tense at family gatherings, in the presence of women (I had a couple of "intimate" relations with some girls and had to halt their sexual advances before it got to THAT point...I was just too nervous), and it's unbearable. I have no chance of getting it up in those situations. It's not physical either, I wake up with an erection almost every morning. When I'm at home and relaxed it's not a problem in response to erotic thoughts or things I hear or see on television. Another is an example of my UA's that I have to take while on probation. You have to piss in a cup with someone watching you and that makes me so uncomfortable I can't even piss for the life of me! I have to drink enough water so that my bladder feels like it's going to explode before I go in and take a UA. I learned this after one time that I drank like 4 glasses of water before I went in and didn't piss and they had to close for lunch so I had to leave and come back in 30 minutes. So on the way home I almost DIED from the pain. I know it's kinda funny, and I wish I could've seen the look on my face (and other onlookers for that matter!) on the drive home. I've never been in so much pain in my life! No one else has that problem, though. I'm the only one who has to wait the 30 minutes to try again and it sucks. I just get way too nervous in situations like that. When I pull up next to cars at a stop light I'm uncomfortable looking to see who's pulled up beside me. WHY??? I found that there are alot of girls that have mentioned to me or my friends that they "want" me (all I'd have to do is give the OK and BAM! - I don't want to sound arrogant or anything - but that just makes this whole situation that much more bothersome, ya know? The opprotunities I'm missing!) but NOOOO! I'm too much of a pussy to relax and do my thing, so to speak. It's purely psychological. I'm proud of my body and if only I could put it to use! In public places I feel as if everyone is looking at me. It's wierd. Either I have a booger in my nose that I'm not finding or I have a problem. It's one of the two. There are so many other examples but my eyes are starting to smart and my fingers are getting tired. It's 3:40 in the morning now (it's taken me over 3 hours to write and edit this...that's gotta be something along the lines of obsessive-compulsive or something). Anyway, I hope I've found the solution to my problems and I hope the reader hasn't fallen asleep already... -Jason911
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by djmmm on February 12, 2002, at 20:21:33
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
> THE PERSON WHO READS THIS IS CARING AND PATIENT (IT'S LONG) AND WILL TRY TO GIVE ME SOME SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHAT THEY THINK OF MY SITUATION, EITHER FROM EXPERIENCE OR SPECULATION, AND IF MY PLAN FOR MY NEXT VISIT IS HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION :) WHO EVER READS THIS THROUGH IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!! YOU MAY EVEN LEARN SOMETHING NEW... I TRIED TO KEEP IT AS DETAILED AS POSSIBLE...
>
> * * *
>
> About two months ago I was diagnosed with depression. The depressed mood started when I was in about the 7th grade. I, however, was pretty young and thought this was just normal and me being what my mother called "a lazy-ass who's give a sh*t was broke". In the 9th grade, I experimented with pot and instantly fell in love (which my doctor now describes as "self-medicating") with it's effects. That was (except for shrooming a couple of times) the only drug I've ever done. I didn't even (and still don't) smoke cigarettes, or drink, or do acid, or anything like that. From what I read on the net, for the most part, pot didn't seem extremely harmful except for possible lung damage over the long term. But that was long-term... besides, I was a basketball player and stayed in great shape anyway. It was the only way I felt good. It was so easy to just go smoke a bowl and be set for a while. I am 17 now (senior in high school) and recently was put on probation for possesion of pot. So I HAD to quit, which wasn't hard to do, but I went back to feeling like crap. A month later I decided to get help from a doctor.
>
> I live in a suburb of Kansas City and am seeing one of the most highly regarded doctors in the area. My Mom is a nurse and told me that, anyway. The doctor told me that he thought I did indeed have depression and, based on the info that I gave him about myself (low motivation, lack of concentration, everything seems flat, low sex drive, short fuse/easily agitated, pot user for a few years as well), he said it was probably dopamine related. He put me on Wellbutrin to start out with. Our insurance didn't cover the SR form so I had to go with the older version and worked my way up (as instructed) to 150mg/morning and 150/mg noon. The first week sucked: my heart would beat pretty hard (in class, I could look at my chest and see my shirt flapping with every beat) which worried me and of course led to an increased heart rate :( Worse, it was IMPOSSIBLE to get to sleep. I called him about these problems and he then prescribed 1/2mg of Klonopin (clonazepam) before bedtime and told me that the heart thing was my body getting use to it and that it should go away "soon". Klonopin helped almost the first or second night on it (I got to sleep anyway) and my heart situation went away shortly thereafter. On my next scheduled visit a month later, I told him I didn't think it was helping my mood, concentration, or anything other than the fact that it relieved my short-fuse and helped my frequent anger problems (which was progress, I guess). This explained why, which I told the doctor, teachers had told me that they said I was "more pleasant to be around" or I didn't "look as angry all the time." I said I didn't notice anything other than that. Everything was still flat. I still wasn't motivated to do things as easy as get up and go to the movies with my friends or go to school basketball games. He said "You're still taking the Wellbutrin like I said right? 300mg a day?". I told him I was, and then prescribed me 5mg of Adderall in the morning and another 5mg at noon (to help concentration and further increase dopamine levels).
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> I didn't feel anything... other than the fact that it was screwing with my appetite so much that I was only eating one meal a day for a bit and had to force myself to eat a second for the next couple days! Those last couple days I was out of school as well, and slept-in to about 11 AM and took my morning dose with the noon dose with the mentality of keeping the same amount of medicine going in my system every day. My Dad, though, would kindly wake me up at 8 or so to give me my Wellbutrin. The Adderall, I figured, would wake me up and I wanted to sleep so I simply postponed it. After using the Adderall for those 4 or 5 days, with no apparent change (except for loss of appetite), I finally decided to call and tell him of my troublesome results. The nurse said he was out for the day, so I left a message with her (BTW, she also told me never to double up doses again) and said she'd try to get ahold of him. She called back later that evening and said he wanted me to try 15mg in the morning but none at noon and if I still wasn't feeling any change in mood to call her back in two days. Whatever. 2 days passed and I still wasn't feeling a thing (which, after doing research on the net recently, I find quite strange.. I should have been feeling SOMETHING), told that to the nurse and she then instructed me to quit the Adderall altogether for two days to see if I really was kidding myself (or whatever the reason was) and call her back after that time and tell her how I felt. 2 days and sure enough, nothing. I called her (which was 2/7/02- the day I wrote this) and told her, at which point I said I was going to stop taking the Adderall for reasons I wanted to explain to the doctor, and scheduled to see him 3 weeks earlier (which will be Wednesday the 13th). Here is where I then developed what I believe will be my soution.
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> This past week, I have been spending hours upon hours trying to find information on all kinds of medicine from all kinds of places: from www.erowid.com to this very forum, Psycho-Babble! By the way, I just became a member (it's past midnight now and officially 2/8/02) today and am going to be an active participant in all further discussions and help people based on my experiences with current and upcoming medications, by the way. Anyhoo, I came across an article somehow on deprenyl. The more and more I researched it, the more and more exited I began to get. I found a 5 or 6 page bio of deprenyl's discoverer, Dr. Joseph Knoll, and the uses of the medicine. It explained basically everything I spent hours researching on in a single report which I have printed out and am bringing to my visit next week. It talks about it's unique selective MAO-B inhibiting properties, catecholamine activity enhancing ability, neuroprotection from various neurotoxins, anti-aging possibilities, and most importantly its effectiveness in teating depression.
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> I brought it up the last time I met with the doctor but he said that, to his knowledge, it didn't work very well with depression and that he'd never heard of it used for this in quite some time and was mainly used as a medicine for Parkinsons and that it wasn't the best choice, in his opinion. Knowing as much as I know now, I believe he is unaware of some of deprenyl (selegiline HCL - Eldepryl in the US)'s potential benefits and recent findings. Who could blame him? He deals with psychotropic drugs that deal with depression and few doctors use deprenyl for this purpose. All that he knew was that at MAO-B selective doses (above 15mg, it becomes a full MAOI) it was not SOLELY effective at treating depression. My paper describes the studies that were done on atypical depressives, tretment-resistant depressives, and major despressives, and that effective treatment levels required dosages in the 20-30, even 60mg range. Well above MAO-B selective doses. Even though the treatments were effective and had low side-effects, there are risks involved with all-out MAOI's like diet restrictions (such as the "cheese effect"). So I can see where he's coming from in this light. But, there were three studies that suggested effective antidepressant action at selective MAO-B inhibiting doses.
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> That study was just the beginning of the paper's deprenyl-depression studies. What's eye-catching is what followed: "In 1978 Mendelwicz and Youdim treated 14 depressed patients with low-dose deprenyl (< or =10mg) plus 300mg 5-HTP 3 times daily for 32 days. Deprenyl potentiated the antidepressant effect of 5-HTP in 10/14 patients. 5-HTP enhances brain serotonin metabolism, which is frequently a problem in depression, while deprenyl enhances dopamine/noradrenalin activity" (how? - I'll explain in a bit). "Under activity of brain dopamine, noradrenalin (norepinephrine), and serototin neural systems are the most frequently cited biochemical causes of depression. So, deprenyl plus 5-HTP would seem a natural antidepressant combination."
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> The next one gets even more promising! "In 1984 Birkmayer, Knoll, and colleagues published their successful results in 155 unipolar depressed patients who were extremely treatment-resistant. Patients were given 5-10mg deprenyl plus 250mg phenylalanine daily. Approximately 70% of their patients achieved full remission, typically within 1-3 weeks. Some patients were continued up to 2 years on treatment without loss of antidepressant action. The combination of deprenyl plus phenylalanine enhances brain PEA activity, while both deprenyl and PEA enhance brain catecholamine activity. Thus deprenyl plus phenylalanine is also a natural antidepressant combination."
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> Almost equally impressive: "In 1991 H. Sabelli reported successful results treating 10 drug-resistant major depressive disorder patients. Sabelli used 5mg deprenyl daily along with 100mg vitamin B6, and 1-3 grams phenylalanine twice daily as treatment. 6 of 10 patients viewed their depressive episodes terminated within 2-3 days! Global Assessment Scale scores confirmed the patients' subjective experiences. Vitamin B6 activates the enzyme that converts phenylalanine to PEA, so the combination of the three is a bio-logical way to enhance both PEA and catecholamine brain function, and thus to diminish depression."
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> Here is why the catecholamine enhancement is so important in treating depression, especially in those whose depression can be related directly to dopamine under-activity (as in my case). You see, even if deprenyl's oringinally hypothesized mode of action - directly increasing synaptic dopamine levels through MAO-B inhibition - is false, deprenyl's MAO-B inhibition still provides part of its benefit.
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> It wasn't until the 1990s that Knoll's deprenyl research took a new direction. Working with rat brain stems, rabbit pulmonary and ear arteries, frog hearts and rats in shuttle boxes, Knoll discovered a new mode of action of deprenyl that he believes explains its widespread clinical utility. Knoll discovered that deprenyl [selegiline] (and it's cousin, PEA) are "catecholamine enhancers". Catecholamines refers to the inter-related neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenaline, and adrenaline. Catecholamines are the transmitters for key activating brain circuits - the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and the locus coeruleus. The neurons from these two brain circuits project from the brain stem, through the mid-brain, to the cerebral cortex. They help to maintain focus, concentration, alertness and effortful attention. One of the reasons the doctor put me on Adderall! - but it seems obvious Adderall is only a temporary fix as it is well documented that the human body develops tolerance (whether it's 6 days or 2 years, everyone's different) to amphetamines, including d-amphetamine, quite quickly. Plus, amphetamines are known to damage dopamine cells but whether or not the damage is done at clincally prescribed doses is not yet known and that scares me especially after long term use AND from what I hear, discontinuing use just sends the person right back into the hole it once lifted them out of). Deprenyl would seem much better (it even protects your dopamine cells from damage/neurotoxicity) :) Dopamine is also the transmitter for a brainstem circuit - the nigrostriatal tract - which connects the the substantia nigra (which deprenyl enhances) and the striatum, a nerve tract that helps control bodily movement.
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> Here's how it works: when an electrical impulse travels down the length of a neuron - from the recieving dendrite, through the cell body, and down the transmitting axon - it triggers the release of packets of nerotransmitters into the synaptic gap. These transmitters hook onto receptors of the next neuron, triggering an electrical impulse which then travels down that neuron , causing yet another transmitter release. What Knoll and colleagues discovered through their highly technical experiments is that deprenyl and PEA act to more efficiently couple the release of neurotransmitters to the electrical impulse that triggers their release. In other words, deprenyl (and PEA) cause a larger release of transmitters in response to a given electrical impulse. It's like "turning up the volume" on catecholamine nerve cell activity. And this may be clinically very useful in depression where there may be under-activity of both dopamine and noradrenalin neurons. And the key here is the addition of the supplement phenylalanine to the deprenyl to help significantly increase PEA levels (one need only look to the results of the above studies to come to that conclusion). Even deprenyl in itself has shown in autopsy studies to not only increase dopamine levels by 40-70% in Parkinson patients but increase PEA levels 1300-3500%! You see, PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits. PEA has an extremely rapid turnover due to its rapid and continuous breakdown by MAO-B. Thus deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer has a dual mode of action. At MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl has a huge catecholamine enhancing effects due to the major increases in PEA levels. Many authors have pointed out the probable dopamine neuron activity enhancing effect of PEA in Parkinson patients taking deprenyl. Knoll's discovery of PEA's catecholamine activity enhancer effect now explains this PEA dopamine-enhancing effect.
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> So my proposal on Wednesday will be to take 10mg a day of selegiline, 600mg of phenylalanine supplement, as well as a good amount of vitamin's C and E, and 1000mg of NAC. The reason for the latter is that deprenyl increases only 2 of the 3 main antioxidants made in the brain. SOD, and catalase to a lesser extent. But the third, glutathione isn't raised at all so it is recommended by Knoll that one take around 1000mg NAC (which increases glutathione levels) to normalize these levels. Good amounts of vitamin C and E help very much as antioxidants themselves. I will ask to discontinue Adderall and taper off the Wellbutrin as well. Wellbutrin is now said to be mainly a noradrenalin reputake inhibitor while only mildly binding to the dopamine uptake sites and actually decreasing the amount of dopamine that is manufactured! I believe that Eldepryl and around 600mg/day of phenylalaine will take care of the noradrenalin AND dopamine especially.
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> I also am going to tell him (and I don't know why the HELL I didn't tell him this before.. I didn't even think of it) that I want to take that Klonopin (2mg) in the morning as well as 1mg a night (.5mg isn't working anymore). I have some social anxiety/phobia characteristics that I need addressed and I hear it works wonders in people with SP or similar syptoms and is even enhanced by deprenyl! I get VERY nervous and tense at family gatherings, in the presence of women (I had a couple of "intimate" relations with some girls and had to halt their sexual advances before it got to THAT point...I was just too nervous), and it's unbearable. I have no chance of getting it up in those situations. It's not physical either, I wake up with an erection almost every morning. When I'm at home and relaxed it's not a problem in response to erotic thoughts or things I hear or see on television. Another is an example of my UA's that I have to take while on probation. You have to piss in a cup with someone watching you and that makes me so uncomfortable I can't even piss for the life of me! I have to drink enough water so that my bladder feels like it's going to explode before I go in and take a UA. I learned this after one time that I drank like 4 glasses of water before I went in and didn't piss and they had to close for lunch so I had to leave and come back in 30 minutes. So on the way home I almost DIED from the pain. I know it's kinda funny, and I wish I could've seen the look on my face (and other onlookers for that matter!) on the drive home. I've never been in so much pain in my life! No one else has that problem, though. I'm the only one who has to wait the 30 minutes to try again and it sucks. I just get way too nervous in situations like that. When I pull up next to cars at a stop light I'm uncomfortable looking to see who's pulled up beside me. WHY??? I found that there are alot of girls that have mentioned to me or my friends that they "want" me (all I'd have to do is give the OK and BAM! - I don't want to sound arrogant or anything - but that just makes this whole situation that much more bothersome, ya know? The opprotunities I'm missing!) but NOOOO! I'm too much of a pussy to relax and do my thing, so to speak. It's purely psychological. I'm proud of my body and if only I could put it to use! In public places I feel as if everyone is looking at me. It's wierd. Either I have a booger in my nose that I'm not finding or I have a problem. It's one of the two. There are so many other examples but my eyes are starting to smart and my fingers are getting tired. It's 3:40 in the morning now (it's taken me over 3 hours to write and edit this...that's gotta be something along the lines of obsessive-compulsive or something). Anyway, I hope I've found the solution to my problems and I hope the reader hasn't fallen asleep already... -Jason911
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>I think that a 5htp, b-6, phenylalanine and Selegiline combo is far more risky than a typical MAOI (Parnate, for example-- since you seem to be aiming for a dopamine/amphetamine type drug)
5-htp will not help with major depression
combining high doses of phenylalanine to a maoi-(b) like Selegiline seems an interesting idea, but since Selegiline increases phenylalanine so greatly, I would be concerned about the excess phenylalanine--- which is almost always present in schizophrenia...excess phenylalanine acts (literally) as amphetamine.
10mg of Selegiline won't act as an antidepressant.
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