![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 32. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sherry on August 4, 2001, at 16:59:09
Hi All,
Does anyone know how caffiene affects the brain? Sometimes a Diet Coke is the only thing that makes me feel better. No, I'm not addicted, but I used to be.
Sherry
Posted by SalArmy4me on August 4, 2001, at 18:22:10
In reply to caffiene, posted by Sherry on August 4, 2001, at 16:59:09
Posted by Sherry on August 4, 2001, at 20:38:41
In reply to Re: caffiene » Sherry, posted by SalArmy4me on August 4, 2001, at 18:22:10
Thanks, SalArmy4me. I appreciate all the research you do for us on the board.
Sherry
> http://biopsychiatry.com/caffeine.htm
Posted by Mitch on August 5, 2001, at 13:34:30
In reply to caffiene, posted by Sherry on August 4, 2001, at 16:59:09
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone know how caffiene affects the brain? Sometimes a Diet Coke is the only thing that makes me feel better. No, I'm not addicted, but I used to be.
>
> SherrySherry, this is a little of a stretch, but I read somewhere that the phenylalanine in *diet* drinks (due to the aspartame) can be stimulating to some people and that when aspartame breaks down you get aspartic acid which may be affecting NMDA receptors which may in turn increase excitatory neurotransmitter levels. Can anybody correct, add to, or clarify that? I can't remember where I found the info.
Mitch
Posted by MB on August 6, 2001, at 18:15:08
In reply to caffiene, posted by Sherry on August 4, 2001, at 16:59:09
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone know how caffiene affects the brain? Sometimes a Diet Coke is the only thing that makes me feel better. No, I'm not addicted, but I used to be.
>
> SherrySometimes caffeine is the only thing that makes *me* feel better also. Sometimes, however, it sends me into a panic attack. I think I'd be better without it but the depression of withdrawal is too severe. Laugh if you want, but I've considered going to inpatient rehab to get off of it.
Another thing, NutraSweet has l-phenylalanine (an amino acid) in it, which is a precursor to norepinephrine and dopamine. Some argue that amino acid supplements can't increase catecholamine levels, but others are firm believers that l-phenylalanine supplements can boost these neurotransmitters and assuage depression.
Posted by Noa on August 7, 2001, at 11:44:17
In reply to Re: caffiene » Sherry, posted by MB on August 6, 2001, at 18:15:08
Recovering caffeine addict here. I get addicted again every so often, like recently when on vacation. Quit cold turkey afterward. Have had to quit many times in past 20 years. Love the way it revs me but then I need more and more of it, and it actually agitates me because of how it interacts with my meds. That is the main reason I stay away now. Soda doesn't have that much, but each of us has different sensititivy levels.
Posted by Mitch on August 7, 2001, at 13:36:48
In reply to Re: caffiene » Sherry, posted by MB on August 6, 2001, at 18:15:08
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Does anyone know how caffiene affects the brain? Sometimes a Diet Coke is the only thing that makes me feel better. No, I'm not addicted, but I used to be.
> >
> > Sherry
>
> Sometimes caffeine is the only thing that makes *me* feel better also. Sometimes, however, it sends me into a panic attack. I think I'd be better without it but the depression of withdrawal is too severe. Laugh if you want, but I've considered going to inpatient rehab to get off of it.
>
> Another thing, NutraSweet has l-phenylalanine (an amino acid) in it, which is a precursor to norepinephrine and dopamine. Some argue that amino acid supplements can't increase catecholamine levels, but others are firm believers that l-phenylalanine supplements can boost these neurotransmitters and assuage depression.MB,
Thanks for that info. I wonder why right after I get to work I am down at the pop machine getting a Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi within an hour of getting there. I've noticed that I really don't care for non-diet sodas, interestingly.
Mitch
Posted by MB on August 7, 2001, at 19:29:04
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » MB, posted by Mitch on August 7, 2001, at 13:36:48
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > Does anyone know how caffiene affects the brain? Sometimes a Diet Coke is the only thing that makes me feel better. No, I'm not addicted, but I used to be.
> > >
> > > Sherry
> >
> > Sometimes caffeine is the only thing that makes *me* feel better also. Sometimes, however, it sends me into a panic attack. I think I'd be better without it but the depression of withdrawal is too severe. Laugh if you want, but I've considered going to inpatient rehab to get off of it.
> >
> > Another thing, NutraSweet has l-phenylalanine (an amino acid) in it, which is a precursor to norepinephrine and dopamine. Some argue that amino acid supplements can't increase catecholamine levels, but others are firm believers that l-phenylalanine supplements can boost these neurotransmitters and assuage depression.
>
> MB,
>
> Thanks for that info. I wonder why right after I get to work I am down at the pop machine getting a Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi within an hour of getting there. I've noticed that I really don't care for non-diet sodas, interestingly.
>
> Mitch
I'm right there with ya. If I'm not going to drink coffee, I always go for diet coke...don't really care for diet pepsi. I've taken l-phenylalanine supplements (as well as l-tyrosine, which is what l-phenylalanine is converted to before it converts to dopamine or norepinephrine). I found both supplements very stimulating. I think l-phenylalanine can also be converted to various chemicals called phenethylamines which are stimulating. Whatever the mechanism, it seems that l-phenylalanine has mild stimulating properties. Could that be why we like diet and not regular????
Posted by Mitch on August 7, 2001, at 23:53:08
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » Mitch, posted by MB on August 7, 2001, at 19:29:04
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know how caffiene affects the brain? Sometimes a Diet Coke is the only thing that makes me feel better. No, I'm not addicted, but I used to be.
> > > >
> > > > Sherry
> > >
> > > Sometimes caffeine is the only thing that makes *me* feel better also. Sometimes, however, it sends me into a panic attack. I think I'd be better without it but the depression of withdrawal is too severe. Laugh if you want, but I've considered going to inpatient rehab to get off of it.
> > >
> > > Another thing, NutraSweet has l-phenylalanine (an amino acid) in it, which is a precursor to norepinephrine and dopamine. Some argue that amino acid supplements can't increase catecholamine levels, but others are firm believers that l-phenylalanine supplements can boost these neurotransmitters and assuage depression.
> >
> > MB,
> >
> > Thanks for that info. I wonder why right after I get to work I am down at the pop machine getting a Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi within an hour of getting there. I've noticed that I really don't care for non-diet sodas, interestingly.
> >
> > Mitch
>
>
> I'm right there with ya. If I'm not going to drink coffee, I always go for diet coke...don't really care for diet pepsi. I've taken l-phenylalanine supplements (as well as l-tyrosine, which is what l-phenylalanine is converted to before it converts to dopamine or norepinephrine). I found both supplements very stimulating. I think l-phenylalanine can also be converted to various chemicals called phenethylamines which are stimulating. Whatever the mechanism, it seems that l-phenylalanine has mild stimulating properties. Could that be why we like diet and not regular????MB,
Wow, did you just use a "mental" nail-gun there? Phenylethylamines, well now isn't that the chocolate high thing? And come to mention it, venlafaxine (Effexor) is "related to the phenylethylyamines" (which can make me hypomanic). So *tyrosine* is a more immediate precursor then??? Well, well, I do crave aged cheese sauces (alfredos-cheddars), smoked/aged meats, and soy sauce! Gobble-gobble, yum-yum! (can't help that phrase I stole it from Kurt Vonnegut, JR.). I tried some 5-HTP and Omega3 stuf and it didn't seem to do any good. Perhaps what I ought to investigate is some l-tyrosine supplements instead. Interesting that these sorts of things are contraindicated with MAOI use....
Thanks for that info. That might help my ADHD and seasonal depressions without worsening cycling or causing hypomania.
Mitch
Posted by 16# on August 8, 2001, at 1:39:58
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » MB, posted by Mitch on August 7, 2001, at 23:53:08
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > >
> > > > > Does anyone know how caffiene affects the brain? Sometimes a Diet Coke is the only thing that makes me feel better. No, I'm not addicted, but I used to be.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sherry
> > > >
> > > > Sometimes caffeine is the only thing that makes *me* feel better also. Sometimes, however, it sends me into a panic attack. I think I'd be better without it but the depression of withdrawal is too severe. Laugh if you want, but I've considered going to inpatient rehab to get off of it.
> > > >
> > > > Another thing, NutraSweet has l-phenylalanine (an amino acid) in it, which is a precursor to norepinephrine and dopamine. Some argue that amino acid supplements can't increase catecholamine levels, but others are firm believers that l-phenylalanine supplements can boost these neurotransmitters and assuage depression.
> > >
> > > MB,
> > >
> > > Thanks for that info. I wonder why right after I get to work I am down at the pop machine getting a Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi within an hour of getting there. I've noticed that I really don't care for non-diet sodas, interestingly.
> > >
> > > Mitch
> >
> >
> > I'm right there with ya. If I'm not going to drink coffee, I always go for diet coke...don't really care for diet pepsi. I've taken l-phenylalanine supplements (as well as l-tyrosine, which is what l-phenylalanine is converted to before it converts to dopamine or norepinephrine). I found both supplements very stimulating. I think l-phenylalanine can also be converted to various chemicals called phenethylamines which are stimulating. Whatever the mechanism, it seems that l-phenylalanine has mild stimulating properties. Could that be why we like diet and not regular????
>
> MB,
>
> Wow, did you just use a "mental" nail-gun there? Phenylethylamines, well now isn't that the chocolate high thing? And come to mention it, venlafaxine (Effexor) is "related to the phenylethylyamines" (which can make me hypomanic). So *tyrosine* is a more immediate precursor then??? Well, well, I do crave aged cheese sauces (alfredos-cheddars), smoked/aged meats, and soy sauce! Gobble-gobble, yum-yum! (can't help that phrase I stole it from Kurt Vonnegut, JR.). I tried some 5-HTP and Omega3 stuf and it didn't seem to do any good. Perhaps what I ought to investigate is some l-tyrosine supplements instead. Interesting that these sorts of things are contraindicated with MAOI use....
>
> Thanks for that info. That might help my ADHD and seasonal depressions without worsening cycling or causing hypomania.
>
> Mitch
Can anyone explain this chemistry biz to me in a layman's nutshell (or at least the mechanism of the word "precursor" in this context)? I am clueless but very interested.Thanks.
Posted by MB on August 8, 2001, at 2:29:30
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » MB, posted by Mitch on August 7, 2001, at 23:53:08
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > >
> > > > > Does anyone know how caffiene affects the brain? Sometimes a Diet Coke is the only thing that makes me feel better. No, I'm not addicted, but I used to be.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sherry
> > > >
> > > > Sometimes caffeine is the only thing that makes *me* feel better also. Sometimes, however, it sends me into a panic attack. I think I'd be better without it but the depression of withdrawal is too severe. Laugh if you want, but I've considered going to inpatient rehab to get off of it.
> > > >
> > > > Another thing, NutraSweet has l-phenylalanine (an amino acid) in it, which is a precursor to norepinephrine and dopamine. Some argue that amino acid supplements can't increase catecholamine levels, but others are firm believers that l-phenylalanine supplements can boost these neurotransmitters and assuage depression.
> > >
> > > MB,
> > >
> > > Thanks for that info. I wonder why right after I get to work I am down at the pop machine getting a Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi within an hour of getting there. I've noticed that I really don't care for non-diet sodas, interestingly.
> > >
> > > Mitch
> >
> >
> > I'm right there with ya. If I'm not going to drink coffee, I always go for diet coke...don't really care for diet pepsi. I've taken l-phenylalanine supplements (as well as l-tyrosine, which is what l-phenylalanine is converted to before it converts to dopamine or norepinephrine). I found both supplements very stimulating. I think l-phenylalanine can also be converted to various chemicals called phenethylamines which are stimulating. Whatever the mechanism, it seems that l-phenylalanine has mild stimulating properties. Could that be why we like diet and not regular????
>
> MB,
>
> Wow, did you just use a "mental" nail-gun there? Phenylethylamines, well now isn't that the chocolate high thing? And come to mention it, venlafaxine (Effexor) is "related to the phenylethylyamines" (which can make me hypomanic). So *tyrosine* is a more immediate precursor then??? Well, well, I do crave aged cheese sauces (alfredos-cheddars), smoked/aged meats, and soy sauce! Gobble-gobble, yum-yum! (can't help that phrase I stole it from Kurt Vonnegut, JR.). I tried some 5-HTP and Omega3 stuf and it didn't seem to do any good. Perhaps what I ought to investigate is some l-tyrosine supplements instead. Interesting that these sorts of things are contraindicated with MAOI use....
>
> Thanks for that info. That might help my ADHD and seasonal depressions without worsening cycling or causing hypomania.
>
> MitchI think the stuff in aged cheeses that you have to be careful of when on MAOIs is *tyramine*, not tyrosine. Tyrosine is converted to l-dopa (which, by the way is a drug used to treat parkinson's disease) which is converted to dopamine, which is then converted to norepinephrine.
*Tyramine*, on the other hand, is tryosine without the group of atoms that make it an acid (called a carboxyl group). Tyramine can eventually be converted to norepinephrine, but bypasses the dopamine stage. Hey, here's a link to a really amazing flowchart that really blew my mind. All these chemicals are so intricately connected. check it out:
http://www.pharmcentral.com/neurotransmitters.htm
I think any of these chemicals can be dangerous on MAOIs. See all the molecules with N's on them? The N (nitrogen) with the three lines comming off of it (two lines going to hydrogens, and one line going to an electron pair) is an amino group. The structures with one amino group are "monoamines." MAO (monoamine oxidase) breaks these chemicals down, and MAOI-antidepressants inhibit this enzyme from breaking these chemicals down and they build up...which is good for depressed people when things like dopamine and norepinephrine build up. But tyramine, the stuff in aged cheese, can kill you when it builds up too much. Sorry if I just told you a bunch of stuff you already know, but I think this stuff is interesting, and I tend to ramble on about it...
Posted by MB on August 8, 2001, at 2:33:41
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor, posted by MB on August 8, 2001, at 2:29:30
Oh yeah, I forgot.
To see the cool flow chart(http://www.pharmcentral.com/neurotransmitters.htm), scroll down to where it says "catecholamines."
Posted by Mitch on August 8, 2001, at 8:05:04
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor, posted by MB on August 8, 2001, at 2:29:30
Thanks for the link! I have got it bookmarked. Now who said organic chemistry was dull, huh?
Mitch :)
Posted by Mitch on August 8, 2001, at 8:17:49
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor, posted by 16# on August 8, 2001, at 1:39:58
> Can anyone explain this chemistry biz to me in a layman's nutshell (or at least the mechanism of the word "precursor" in this context)? I am clueless but very interested.
>
> Thanks."Precursor" simply means something like "comes before". If you check MB's link you will see a "food chain" of sorts that illustrates in detail the varying ways that neurotransmitters are synthesized by the body that start out as amino acids in our diet. There are some people that believe that an improved more scientific approach to nurtrition could be helpful for people suffering with depression, etc.
Mitch
Posted by MB on August 8, 2001, at 13:11:52
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » MB, posted by Mitch on August 8, 2001, at 8:05:04
I think it's like any subject...if you can relate it to personal life experiences (like we did with our diet cola experiences, for example) it *can't* be boring because it has do do with oneself. And since when is talking about oneself ever boring
< g > heh heh...Hey, if you like this kind of stuff, there is a plug in you can get for your web browser called CHIME. It allows you to look at 3-d models of molecular structures, and there are a lot of web pages with CHIME models of psychiatric pharmaceuticals. You can get it here: http://www.mdli.com It's pretty cool. Unfortunately, I just found out that Microsoft Internet Explorer version 5.5 and above no longer supports it! But it does still work with Netscape, and it should work again with IE soon...
> Thanks for the link! I have got it bookmarked. Now who said organic chemistry was dull, huh?
>
> Mitch :)
Posted by Sherry on August 8, 2001, at 18:17:13
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » Mitch, posted by MB on August 8, 2001, at 13:11:52
Hmmm, this has turned into a very interesting thread. I'm super glad I asked. Thanks guys!
Sherry
> I think it's like any subject...if you can relate it to personal life experiences (like we did with our diet cola experiences, for example) it *can't* be boring because it has do do with oneself. And since when is talking about oneself ever boring
> < g > heh heh...
>
> Hey, if you like this kind of stuff, there is a plug in you can get for your web browser called CHIME. It allows you to look at 3-d models of molecular structures, and there are a lot of web pages with CHIME models of psychiatric pharmaceuticals. You can get it here: http://www.mdli.com It's pretty cool. Unfortunately, I just found out that Microsoft Internet Explorer version 5.5 and above no longer supports it! But it does still work with Netscape, and it should work again with IE soon...
>
>
> > Thanks for the link! I have got it bookmarked. Now who said organic chemistry was dull, huh?
> >
> > Mitch :)
Posted by Mitch on August 9, 2001, at 0:06:05
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » Mitch, posted by MB on August 8, 2001, at 13:11:52
> I think it's like any subject...if you can relate it to personal life experiences (like we did with our diet cola experiences, for example) it *can't* be boring because it has do do with oneself. And since when is talking about oneself ever boring
> < g > heh heh...
>
> Hey, if you like this kind of stuff, there is a plug in you can get for your web browser called CHIME. It allows you to look at 3-d models of molecular structures, and there are a lot of web pages with CHIME models of psychiatric pharmaceuticals. You can get it here: http://www.mdli.com It's pretty cool. Unfortunately, I just found out that Microsoft Internet Explorer version 5.5 and above no longer supports it! But it does still work with Netscape, and it should work again with IE soon...
>
>
> > Thanks for the link! I have got it bookmarked. Now who said organic chemistry was dull, huh?
> >
> > Mitch :)Well, now that should be really fun for possibly viewing the new "escitalopram" enantiomer! I will have to wait for the MIE version though. Every time I try to install netscape it seems that my MIE starts having problems....maybe just a little paranoid, eh? :)
Mitch
Posted by afatchic on August 9, 2001, at 7:10:17
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » MB, posted by Mitch on August 9, 2001, at 0:06:05
This thread is very interesting but I'm more confused than ever. I have a serious Diet Coke addiction. I use to smoke 3 packs a day and was able to quit cold turkey, no problem. I think of myself as a highly disciplined person, yet I have never been able to give up Diet Coke for more than a couple weeks.
I started taking Effexor about a month ago and I'm feeling great but I noticed that since I started taking it that my cravings for Diet Coke have increased, it just seems more wonderful than usual (then again, many things seem more wonderful with Effexor :-)
When I realized that my Diet Coke habit was getting out of hand (my consumption more than double this month), I swore to myself that this time I would give it up forever. I even signed a contract and had it witnessed.
Now, after reading these posts, I'm starting to think that the Diet Coke might be a positive self-medication for me. Or is this just wishful thinking? So is Diet Coke evil or beneficial? I would really appreciate some feedback.
> > I think it's like any subject...if you can relate it to personal life experiences (like we did with our diet cola experiences, for example) it *can't* be boring because it has do do with oneself. And since when is talking about oneself ever boring
> > < g > heh heh...
> >
> > Hey, if you like this kind of stuff, there is a plug in you can get for your web browser called CHIME. It allows you to look at 3-d models of molecular structures, and there are a lot of web pages with CHIME models of psychiatric pharmaceuticals. You can get it here: http://www.mdli.com It's pretty cool. Unfortunately, I just found out that Microsoft Internet Explorer version 5.5 and above no longer supports it! But it does still work with Netscape, and it should work again with IE soon...
> >
> >
> > > Thanks for the link! I have got it bookmarked. Now who said organic chemistry was dull, huh?
> > >
> > > Mitch :)
>
> Well, now that should be really fun for possibly viewing the new "escitalopram" enantiomer! I will have to wait for the MIE version though. Every time I try to install netscape it seems that my MIE starts having problems....maybe just a little paranoid, eh? :)
>
> Mitch
Posted by SalArmy4me on August 9, 2001, at 9:02:01
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor, posted by afatchic on August 9, 2001, at 7:10:17
There's No Need to Worry About Caffeine Addiction. RN. 61(1):55-56, January 1998:
"A patient of mine who drinks anywhere from five to 10 cups of coffee a day is worried that she has become "addicted" to caffeine. Is that possible?
In a word, No. According to the World Health Organization, caffeine use, in any amount, doesn't result in any physical or social consequences comparable to that of serious drug abuse. When caffeine consumption is abruptly cut off, though, it's not unusual to experience mild side effects. In addition to headaches, these include restlessness and irritability. These can be avoided by gradually decreasing caffeine intake over a few days."
REFERENCE
1. International Food Information Council Foundation. (1997). Everything you need to know about caffeine. Washington, DC: Author. [Context Link]
Posted by MB on August 9, 2001, at 12:35:02
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » afatchic, posted by SalArmy4me on August 9, 2001, at 9:02:01
> There's No Need to Worry About Caffeine Addiction.
Unless, of course, it exacerbates a pre-existing condition like anxiety, panic or mania. I know for me, caffeine is a serious issue. When I don't drink it, I sink into a depression so profound, I can't function. When I drink more than a cup in a 12-18 hour period, I have panic attacks, weird blue flashes in my visual periphery, racing thoughts, and other extremely uncofortable sensations.
I can't quit the drug or I lose my mind. I can't keep drinking it or I will lose my mind. It doesn't feel any different than the "rock and a hard place" I was stuck between with cocaine addiction a few years ago. I can't get any help with the issue. People in my recovery program laugh at me and offer me a cup of coffee when I bring it up. They don't understand the degree to which the drug has ahold of my sanity and emotions.
So...sometimes there *is* need to worry about caffeine addiction.
Posted by PaulB on August 9, 2001, at 12:48:09
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » afatchic, posted by SalArmy4me on August 9, 2001, at 9:02:01
> There's No Need to Worry About Caffeine Addiction. RN. 61(1):55-56, January 1998:
>
> "A patient of mine who drinks anywhere from five to 10 cups of coffee a day is worried that she has become "addicted" to caffeine. Is that possible?
>
> In a word, No. According to the World Health Organization, caffeine use, in any amount, doesn't result in any physical or social consequences comparable to that of serious drug abuse. When caffeine consumption is abruptly cut off, though, it's not unusual to experience mild side effects. In addition to headaches, these include restlessness and irritability. These can be avoided by gradually decreasing caffeine intake over a few days."
>
> REFERENCE
> 1. International Food Information Council Foundation. (1997). Everything you need to know about caffeine. Washington, DC: Author. [Context Link]I think amino acids can be great antidepressants although they do not work for everybody unfortunately. I have had over a years experience with l-tyrosine now which alleviated my severe depression within 24 hrs last February. Unfortunately when it came to experimenting with 5-HTP and L-tryptophan neither were effective on a contninous basis. I thought that it may have something to do with the fact that serotonin constantly moves in cycles. But I dont know. I would be interested to hear what dosage people take of amino acids because I take much lower and less frequent dosing than is suggested in the books. I used to take 1000mg of l-tyrosine once a week on an empty stomach. Since I have added SAM-E I only need to take 1000mg of l-tyrosine every 3-4 weeks. Im having a heck of a time trying to find something that will help with my social anxiety. Ive tried L-Tryptophan and 5-HTP, Paroxetine, Imipramine and Clonazepam.
Im going to give Gabapentin a try I think now if my pdoc will allow it.One thing I would add to people who are thinking about trying amino acids for mood disorders is that too much is as useless as too little. In response to too much neurotransmitter the receptors in the brain will shut down temporariliy. Its a type of negative feedback mechanism. Oh, and take it from me SAM-E really helps. Even taking B-Vitmains, and other importnat nutrients, SAM-E was the only substance that restored the effectiveness of l-Tyrosine after I relapsed on it a few months ago.
Dont forget my question-What dosage of amino acids do you take and how often. Thanks
PaulB
Posted by MB on August 9, 2001, at 12:57:35
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » MB, posted by Mitch on August 9, 2001, at 0:06:05
Yeah, that kind of stuff is fun. I've got one of those ball & stick model kits for making molecules. I don't know if I have enough carbon balls to build two citalopram molecules, though. I wonder at which carbon the bonds are being switched in the making of escitalopram. I'm looking at a 2-D depiction.
Check it out: http://www.mentalhealth.com/drug/p30-c04.htmlI bet it's the carbon in the heterocyclic ring that the fluorinated benzene ring is attatched to. You could have the fluorinated benzene ring coming toward you and the N,N-dimethylpropylamine chain going away from you, or vice versa: with the N,N-dimethylpropylamine chain comming toward you, etc. You think that's what they're doing?
Now I want to build it with my adult tinker-toy set...LOL < g >You know, I don't think you sound paranoid at all. I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to do something like that; to make it difficult to use a third party browser. I wonder what politics are behind IE not supporting CHIME. I may be paranoid too, but I bet there are some sordid dynamics underlying the whole deal...
> Well, now that should be really fun for possibly viewing the new "escitalopram" enantiomer! I will have to wait for the MIE version though. Every time I try to install netscape it seems that my MIE starts having problems....maybe just a little paranoid, eh? :)
>
> Mitch
Posted by afatchic on August 9, 2001, at 16:55:53
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » Mitch, posted by MB on August 9, 2001, at 12:57:35
Hey guys, it wasn't the caffeine I was thinking about, it's the aspartame.
> Yeah, that kind of stuff is fun. I've got one of those ball & stick model kits for making molecules. I don't know if I have enough carbon balls to build two citalopram molecules, though. I wonder at which carbon the bonds are being switched in the making of escitalopram. I'm looking at a 2-D depiction.
> Check it out: http://www.mentalhealth.com/drug/p30-c04.html
>
> I bet it's the carbon in the heterocyclic ring that the fluorinated benzene ring is attatched to. You could have the fluorinated benzene ring coming toward you and the N,N-dimethylpropylamine chain going away from you, or vice versa: with the N,N-dimethylpropylamine chain comming toward you, etc. You think that's what they're doing?
> Now I want to build it with my adult tinker-toy set...LOL < g >
>
> You know, I don't think you sound paranoid at all. I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to do something like that; to make it difficult to use a third party browser. I wonder what politics are behind IE not supporting CHIME. I may be paranoid too, but I bet there are some sordid dynamics underlying the whole deal...
>
>
> > Well, now that should be really fun for possibly viewing the new "escitalopram" enantiomer! I will have to wait for the MIE version though. Every time I try to install netscape it seems that my MIE starts having problems....maybe just a little paranoid, eh? :)
> >
> > Mitch
Posted by Mitch on August 9, 2001, at 23:21:45
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor, posted by afatchic on August 9, 2001, at 16:55:53
> Hey guys, it wasn't the caffeine I was thinking about, it's the aspartame.
Yes, I know you are wondering if it is the aspartame being what you are craving instead of caffeine. But it kind of chained off into a lot of tangents I guess......::)One thing I thought of trying myself is to start drinking *caffeine-free* diet coke and see if that satisfies me. If not, then it is the caffeine, if so..then the aspartame thing might be the thing.
Mitch
Posted by MB on August 10, 2001, at 0:10:56
In reply to Re: phenyalanine-DA precursor » afatchic, posted by Mitch on August 9, 2001, at 23:21:45
> > Hey guys, it wasn't the caffeine I was thinking about, it's the aspartame.
>
>
> Yes, I know you are wondering if it is the aspartame being what you are craving instead of caffeine. But it kind of chained off into a lot of tangents I guess......::)
>
> One thing I thought of trying myself is to start drinking *caffeine-free* diet coke and see if that satisfies me. If not, then it is the caffeine, if so..then the aspartame thing might be the thing.
>
> MitchI think I'm lost here. I always thought that NutraSweet was a *mix* of aspartame and l-phenylalaine. I thought this because it says on the side of my Diet Coke can (that I'm drinking now at 10:00 pm < g >), "PHENYKETONURICS: CONTAINS PHENYLALANINE). Is that right, or is it that the aspartame in the NutraSweet *breaks down* into l-phenylalanine? I'm looking at the structural formula of aspartame and it looks like an amide derivative of phenylalanine that could easily be broken down into phenylalanine:
http://www.niutang.com/eproduct/food01.htmSo I guess the question I'm asking is whether NutraSweet *has* phenylalanine in it or whether it just has aspartame in it which breaks down into phenylalanine??
OK, so I'm getting obsessive about my soda.
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