![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 134 to 158 of 434. Go back in thread:
Posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 0:16:27
In reply to Re: Handholding Shelli » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on July 31, 2001, at 12:59:58
>
> > > >Like I think if you are very good at something, it is okay to acknowlege it, because a talent is a gift, not a product of the ego, although using the gift may be.
>
> I do this too. Drives my kids nuts. They think I should respond to compliments by saying "it's kind of you to say so".You have raised your kids to be very polite. That's good. They can understand the rest when they are older.
>>
>
> > > > A lot of people who were abused in early childhood have temporal lobe epilepsy.
>
> I wasn't physically abused, if that's what you mean. I was emotionally abused--neglected more actually. I was severely traumatized as a child. But if it's physical injury, my hunch would be I sustained it in one of my car accidents--although those were fairly minor. The people at EEG Spectrum (the brainwave feedback place) asked me a lot of question about brain injury and thought perhaps the car accidents were the culprit.No I didn't mean just physical abuse; I just meant abuse in general and neglect is certainly a form of abuse.
>> I'm sure there is--as my pdoc says it's a matter of where you fall on the continuum. I'm not taking the diagnosis very seriously because of this.
Well, if you did, would there be a different treatment plan?
>
>
> I felt ambivalent as well. I thought it would be like the scene in Wizard of Oz where the curtain flies up and you see that the wizard is really just an old man. But I was pleasantly surprised. He seemed to be a bright, caring and connected person. As I have said to him, psychobabble is a self selected group that has a number of great characteristics: generally bright people who believe in taking charge of their treatment options and doing research on their situation. Those characteristics alone are not that common in the general population.That's great. I don't regret not having met Dr. Bob and the two other people. I hadn't really had much of a sense of the two people who went; I hadn't been on the board that long. I thought, and still think for now I'd rather keep it on the board.
>
I'm sorry that your first day on parnate was so awful. I've been working all evening, then answered two posts from Elizabeth and I am really tired. It's 1am est. But I'll check in with you tomorrow to see how you're doing and respond to the other posts.I hope you are able to sleep well tonight and that tomorrow is a better day.
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 10:26:45
In reply to Re: Give me back my hand- (just kidding) » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on July 31, 2001, at 22:43:38
> Shelli: I just want to say that navigating your path through this life with alters sounds like a real challenge. In therapy, I had to embrace the 8 year old child in myself that I had discarded as quickly as I could, but that is a far cry from dealing with and negotiating with alters. I have been on a couple of support groups with people who had alters and I found that these people were remarkably careful and considerate in how and whom they let communicate with the group. Then to have people discredit the notion of alters as well--that just makes things more difficult.
>
> Lorraine
Hi Lorraine.I'm glad that you've met people with alters before; it probably doesn't strike you as completely bizarre then. Again, I do not have the diagnosis of DID; I have been spared a lot of the internal struggling that others go through, and the competition for power, although I have done some difficult work around the fears of the younger ones. I don't know why they still hang out in me, but it's fine with me, and I will be sad if they decide to integrate. But the decision to integrate is really not up to me, anyway. If it happens, it will be spontaneous.
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 11:13:06
In reply to Re: DID, MDs, DSM, EMDR, etc. » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on July 31, 2001, at 23:04:47
> > > >You might also want to read the book I mentioned before "the Magic Daughter: A Memoir of Living with Multiple Personality Disorder " by Jane Phillips. She is a university professor, writes anonymously, and I think gives a good idea of how it feels to try to work and be multiple.
>
> I think I'll order this book--it sounds interesting.I hope you like it; tell me what you think after you've read it.
> Solomon, the author of The Noonday Demon, also speaks highly of EMDR. Enough so that I have thought of pursuing it--although, honestly, I think I have uncovered all my childhood stuff and talked it to death so I'm not sure it would add anything new.I wouldn't go looking for new trauma unless you feel that there is something unresolved that is contributing to your depression.
> Shelli--how do you go about finding a body therapist?I started thinking about it and I don't remember how I even heard of body therapy. I got the name of my body therapist from a training center for body work near me. I asked them if they had any names of people who had specifically worked with trauma, and they gave me the name of one of their instructors. And she was so good. Then when I wanted to start again, I got names from her, because she is almost an hour away, and also charges $125.00. She has a phd in counseling which does me no good insurance wise. I did try a social worker trained in body work, but I didn't like her approach--she tried to make me talk too much, like what color is the depression, what shape, etc., etc. and it didn't feel helpful. With the two body therapists I liked, I did end up talking alot (me & kids), but it was much more organic; we talked because we wanted to say something, tell her what things were happening in my body when she touched us, rather than answer questions that I couldn't relate to.
Is your depression centered in a specific area of your body?
>
> When they reach a certain age, do they become integrated into your personality?I really have no idea how it will happen and if it will happen. My therapist said that if that was the only issue left for me (kids inside), and everything else was worked through, she wouldn't keep me in therapy for that reason.
>
> That is a bummer. I think (but don't know) that you should have your estrogen levels taken before they put you on estrogen to make sure that you don't get estrogen dominance. I mean didn't the study deal with women who were deficient in estrogen?
>Yes, and I guess I assumed that my estrogen had dipped because of my age, but maybe it hasn't. Again no other signs until last month I just spotted, didn't have a real period, but then this week got it again regular. I have an appointment with my gyn next week and I'll discuss it with her. I have stopped the estrogen, at least until I talk with her.
>
> I hope your dip is momentary, Shelli, and you bounce back, switching drugs is a PITA. Day one on Parnate was not good--muscle tension in my back, hyperventilating starting up again--then holding off on the Neurontin to get a sense of the drug on its own, then taking a considerable amount of Neurontin (am and pm doses in rapid succession). Oi! I think I will be sea sick. Let's hope tomorrow I can gain a better footing with this new combo.How are you doing on day two of Parnate? With nardil, I had zero side effects from the beginning. Maybe others on the board can be helpful with knowing whether it took a while to adapt to parnate. You might ask, or first search the archives. I've never adjusted to any medication which gave me side effects at the beginning, but lots of people on the board have had the experience of it taking time to adjust to a med which turned out to be a success. I hope you're in that category. If not, there's always nardil.
I do believe that I will either go back on nardil with concerta, or start parnate next week when the prozac is cleared out. I just took concerta (had already taken oxy a few hours ago) to see how I do on the two of them together. Today's the only day this week I can afford to lose so that's why I decided to do try it.
take care, shelli
Posted by Elizabeth on August 1, 2001, at 13:58:22
In reply to Re: DID, MDs, DSM, EMDR, etc. » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on July 31, 2001, at 23:55:33
> It is great. I just wish insurance would pay for it. I pay so much for insurance which covers my therapy and it's frustrating that they will only cover MDs, psychologists and social workers. The woman that I want to work with is a MA counselor and she is not covered, even though it would be cheaper for them.
I have the reverse problem: my insurance doesn't want me to see a psychiatrist for psychotherapy because they don't want to spend the extra $. (So they only pay for about half the cost of each session.)
> No, they talk to me, comment about things in general. Like, "you forgot to give us lunch" or "why is that lady so fat", stuff like that, unless I ask them deeper questions.
What does giving them lunch entail???
> > Does the aging occur at the same rate as real aging? Or do they age in a discontinuous fashion?
>
> Totally discontinuous.That's weird. (Not that the rest of this stuff isn't weird.) Do you have any idea what triggers the aging?
> A past friend of mine (DID) had totally different eegs depending on which personality was out.
Yes, I've read about that sort of thing. Interesting stuff.
> The neurologists were clueless what was going on because this was before she was diagnosed.
You say that you find all this dissociating and so forth completely natural. Under those circumstances, I can see how it would be hard for a clinician to figure out what was going on.
> no, just valium makes me more grounded when I'm very dissociated. But some doctors don't like to give valium so they give me klonopin instead which isn't that helpful, but does help some.
They don't like to give Valium? Why not -- not trendy enough? < g >
> I hope to talk to my pdoc about bup and/or parnate. In my eight minutes I may only get to one. I have the option of seeing him as often as I want, it's just a pain to go there if I'm not down there already for therapy. And he hates phone calls.
He should get over it (the phone call thing). Doctors need to be on call, IMO.
> But sixteen is young to go away to college, emotionally, I would think. Did you adjust easily or was it difficult for you?
It is natural for me to be around older people, just like having several people in your head is natural for you. :-) (I'll let you be the judge of which one of us is weirder.)
> Is anyone else in your family depressed?
Yes, on both sides of my family. (no bipolar, AFAIK)
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on August 1, 2001, at 13:59:02
In reply to Re: DID, MDs, DSM, EMDR, etc. » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on July 31, 2001, at 23:04:47
> I thought it was a requirement that you stop taking it when you've learned how to spell it. At least that's what my pdoc told me last week when he switched me from selegiline to Parnate.
"Tranylcypromine." There's a toughie; I guess that means it should keep working for a while. < g >
> That reminds me to contact my pdoc for an article that he says just came out about the development of more MAOs.
Probably reversible ones, though. I don't know if this is generally the case, but moclobemide (Manerix, Aurorix) has a reputation for being, well, lame. Do you recall the name of the article, any of the authors, or anything else that could help me look it up?
-elizabeth
Posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 20:54:25
In reply to Re: DID, MDs, DSM, EMDR, etc. » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on August 1, 2001, at 13:58:22
> > No, they talk to me, comment about things in general. Like, "you forgot to give us lunch" or "why is that lady so fat", stuff like that, unless I ask them deeper questions.
> What does giving them lunch entail???
it actually means that they are hungry and I've been too preoccupied to eat. It's not like they eat different things than me. And it's not like I'm June Cleaver.>
> > > Does the aging occur at the same rate as real aging? Or do they age in a discontinuous fashion?
> > Totally discontinuous.
> That's weird. (Not that the rest of this stuff isn't weird.) Do you have any idea what triggers the aging?
I'm guessing that the more secure they get, the more they are ready to pass into a new developmental stage. The youngest one is the easiest one for me to analyze because she is the most different from me now and probably the most different from how I was at age three. She identifies with being very little ( I was quite tall at three) and she used to collect stuffed animals of mice and repeatedly say she was a very little mouse. I just asked her if she still feels like a very little mouse and she said, "no, I am three and a half now." She is very confident in her childlikeness and unlike me at three, she feels it is quite natural to be loved and treasured. She has talked about things that I don't quite understand, like her mommy went away and never came back. And my mother was in the hospital for about a week when I was close to age three. But I don't know why the mommy never came back in her mind. And she talks about sexual abuse that I have no memory of. The details are so vivid, her emotions reinactments so strong, and the descriptions so unadult, that I am sure it happened. Anyway, with sexual abuse I think you always would believe an uncoached three year old. And my first knowledge of my sexual abuse came to me totally independent of therapyAlso, when I was three I tried to burn down my neighbor's house so the fire engines would come (tried with matches to burn brick), and she takes the credit for that, but I do remember lighting match after match. And of course the house did not burn down, and no one found out about it. You might ask what a three year was doing all by her self outside trying to burn houses down--sort of indicates the pattern of neglect in my family.
I had a client who had adopted a son from South America and they had to wait almost two years to finally bring him home. When I met him (he was three), he opened his hand and showed me that he had a little church mouse (not visible to the naked eye :-) ). His name was Brian and the mouse's name was also Brian. I think he sort of choose to keep a part of him separate (as a mouse) to remind him of his old country, his caretakers there and his friends in the orphanage. And mice have often played roles in fairytales, and children's stories, so I think the mouse thing is sort of a part of the collective unconscious.
>
> You say that you find all this dissociating and so forth completely natural. Under those circumstances, I can see how it would be hard for a clinician to figure out what was going on.Well, if I was losing time and buying things I didn't want, and people knew me who I didn't know, and if I found myself in places with no clue how I got there, then it *would* feel strange and very horrible I think. My friend was diagnosed as scheizophrenic in NIMH, because she heard voices inside, but she didn't fit a scheizophrenic profile. It took her therapist years to realize what was going on, in fact her friends who had seen Sybil on tv wondered about it first.
BTW, he is still her therapist. I think he feels so bad about misdisagnosing her (it took eight years!) that he doesn't charge her anything over what her insurance pays. Actually she is his only patient (talk about a transference dream) because he (MD) and a psychologist run a very well known treatment center for people with dissociation and substance abuse, which keeps adding new locations. The only clinical work he does now is run some of the groups out of the centers, if he's still doing that. Mostly he is administrative. It's called the Kolmac Clinic.
> > no, just valium makes me more grounded when I'm very dissociated. But some doctors don't like to give valium so they give me klonopin instead which isn't that helpful, but does help some.
>
> They don't like to give Valium? Why not -- not trendy enough? < g >
Not only not trendy, but even worse: "post-trendy" meaning it is almost blacklisted! Remember miltown (meprabamate?)
>
>
> He should get over it (the phone call thing). Doctors need to be on call, IMO.
--not holding my breath.> > Is anyone else in your family depressed?
> Yes, on both sides of my family. (no bipolar, AFAIK)Anyone in your immediate family (sibs, parents)?
>
shelli
Posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 21:29:38
In reply to Re: DID, MDs, DSM, EMDR, etc. » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on July 31, 2001, at 23:04:47
Actually, after yesterday's "seasickness" I am somewhat concerned that you haven't posted, and hope things are going better. Somehow though, I don't have a good intuition about your absence from the board today. I hope I'm wrong, and am looking forward to hearing.
Shelli
Posted by Elizabeth on August 2, 2001, at 8:39:49
In reply to Re: DID, MDs, DSM, EMDR, etc. » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 20:54:25
> Anyway, with sexual abuse I think you always would believe an uncoached three year old. And my first knowledge of my sexual abuse came to me totally independent of therapy
Well, it's good to feel confident in your memories. Being diagnosed as "mentally ill" can often make people feel much less self-confident, I think.
> Also, when I was three I tried to burn down my neighbor's house so the fire engines would come (tried with matches to burn brick), and she takes the credit for that, but I do remember lighting match after match.
< VBG > Glad it wasn't a wood house!
> You might ask what a three year was doing all by her self outside trying to burn houses down--sort of indicates the pattern of neglect in my family.
It does indeed. I think there are a lot of children who experiment with fire (hence the warnings not to play with matches). I wonder if the behaviour is linked to particular traits.
> > You say that you find all this dissociating and so forth completely natural. Under those circumstances, I can see how it would be hard for a clinician to figure out what was going on.
>
> Well, if I was losing time and buying things I didn't want, and people knew me who I didn't know, and if I found myself in places with no clue how I got there, then it *would* feel strange and very horrible I think.Sure. But since you don't see anything unnatural about it, it might not come up in a clinical interview.
> My friend was diagnosed as schizophrenic in NIMH, because she heard voices inside, but she didn't fit a scheizophrenic profile.
When did that happen? In the past, schizophrenia has been a sort of umbrella diagnosis, and many people were misdiagnosed with schizophrenia when they were really suffering from, e.g., bipolar disorder.
> BTW, he is still her therapist. I think he feels so bad about misdisagnosing her (it took eight years!) that he doesn't charge her anything over what her insurance pays.
Hmm, I wonder if I can come up with a scam to make my pdoc feel guilty enough to charge less. < g >
> Actually she is his only patient (talk about a transference dream) because he (MD) and a psychologist run a very well known treatment center for people with dissociation and substance abuse, which keeps adding new locations. The only clinical work he does now is run some of the groups out of the centers, if he's still doing that. Mostly he is administrative. It's called the Kolmac Clinic.
I think it would be cool to set up a private clinic with a couple other clinicians like that. (I'd probably be more interested in treating "dual diagnosis" patients with mood or anxiety disorders and addictions.)
> > They don't like to give Valium? Why not -- not trendy enough? < g >
>
> Not only not trendy, but even worse: "post-trendy" meaning it is almost blacklisted! Remember miltown (meprabamate?)"Remember" doesn't seem like quite the right word. I do know of it. It seems that it's a metabolite of Soma (a muscle relaxant that I use for back pain), although I don't have any idea to what extent since I've never taken meprobamate.
> > > Is anyone else in your family depressed?
> > Yes, on both sides of my family. (no bipolar, AFAIK)
>
> Anyone in your immediate family (sibs, parents)?My mother and my (younger) sister have been, but I never witnessed it. (I just thought my sister was holing up in her room in the way that teenagers generally do. In retrospect I feel bad for having failed to notice what was going on. I made her promise that if it ever happens again she will tell somebody in the family.)
-elizabeth
Posted by Lorraine on August 2, 2001, at 11:10:25
In reply to Re: Give me back my hand- (just kidding) » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 10:26:45
[re: temporal lobe epilepsy]
> >as my pdoc says it's a matter of where you fall on the continuum. I'm not taking the diagnosis very seriously because of this.
>
> Well, if you did, would there be a different treatment plan?I suppose the only difference would be that I would actually believe that I need to take anti-convulsants. He has me on them anyway, but I've always thought that that was just his med preference as opposed to understanding the need for taking them.
> > >I thought, and still think for now I'd rather keep it on the board.
Well, I'm glad that I met Neal and if the opportunity came up I would encourage you to meet the psychobabbler. There is no commitment to meeting someone one time and there is always the possibility that you will meet someone with this illness that can be a real life friend. I have good friends and some of them are depressed, but none of them have the type of treatment resistant depression or the degree of life impairment that I have so it is nice to meet someone who "gets" it without a lot of explanation.
> >
> > > I'm sorry that your first day on parnate was so awful.It was a first day. My second day was better, but not great (I'm still on a low dose--5 mg 2x day and Neurontin 300 mg 3x day). I need to take it up slowly because I don't want hyperventilation to be a major problem. It sort of went away during the wash-out period, when I dropped the selegiline--even though I was still taking Adderal (and Neurontin). I'm kind of draggy. My pdoc says I can add Adderal to the mix, but I have a hunch I won't need to once I get to a therapeutic dose. I was able to REALLY sleep soundly last night and the night before, a luxury that the Adderal had impaired significantly. I also learned that I can make it through a wash out period fairly functional by taking Adderal and Neurontin during it. This is actually good news.
> > >I've been working all evening, then answered two posts from Elizabeth and I am really tired. It's 1am est. But I'll check in with you tomorrow to see how you're doing and respond to the other posts.
The problem is that I was out of town for a few days and then responded to each posting (I should have combined them like I am doing now). You shouldn't feel compelled to respond to my compulsion < vbg >. But the thought is kind.
>
> > > I'm glad that you've met people with alters before; it probably doesn't strike you as completely bizarre then. Again, I do not have the diagnosis of DID; I have been spared a lot of the internal struggling that others go through, and the competition for power, although I have done some difficult work around the fears of the younger ones.Although what is striking to me about DID as well as your situation is how it all becomes in large part a "management" issue--e.g. only letting the little ones talk in the restroom and so forth. There actually is a lesson there for people who do not have alters--namely compartmentalizing when it is appropriate to have certain reactions. For instance, I used to have shame spirals (fortunately therapy irradicated this one). It would have been great to have said ok I can have shame spirals but only at certain times. Maybe not doable, but the effort would have been grand and I'm sure I would have learned a lot in the process. The cognitive therapy piece of the equation for me was to recognize the trigger and the beginning of the thought thread and pull it back in before the spiral got full steam.
> > > I don't know why they still hang out in me, but it's fine with me, and I will be sad if they decide to integrate.
This is such a sweet way of looking at it. Did you ever resist or resent their presence?
Lorraine
Posted by Lorraine on August 2, 2001, at 11:42:31
In reply to Hope you're okay on your 2nd day of parnate » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 21:29:38
[re: "the Magic Daughter]
> >I hope you like it; tell me what you think after you've read it.I ordered it from half.com. I'm not sure it is still in print, but at half.com you can get out of print or hard to locate books (like Tess Gallegher's "Moon Crossing Bridge"--which is a poetry book that she wrote shortly after the death her husband (or lover?)Ray Carver. When someone's husband dies, I like to give them this book because it is so lovely--but it is hard to find). I also ordered the PDR and got it for less than half price (which is still expensive, but look how much money I Saved). Anyway, I'll let you know what I think of The Magic Daughter after I have read it.
> > > I wouldn't go looking for new trauma unless you feel that there is something unresolved that is contributing to your depression.I suppose you are right. The thing about when I worked out my traumas before was that I didn't "remember" certain things and so had to "try on" various scenarios and walk around with them for a week or so to see if they "fit". For instance, when I set my pajamas on fire when I was eight, I don't know if there was a precipitating incident or a suicidal intent or if I was just a kid playing with matches that panicked. I "decided" the latter scenario was the truth. There also was some sexual abuse by my father when I was older. So I wonder here too although it's not something that I have a strong intuition about.
> > > Is your depression centered in a specific area of your body?I'm not sure. I feel a lot of heaviness in my chest. And I once worked with a massage therapist when I was during a wash out period and I think I cried the entire massage. She was wonderful and worked with me on breath (I was hyperventilating pretty badly at the time). I've had this happen before with other massage therapist who were emotionally oriented.
> > >I have stopped the estrogen, at least until I talk with her.
This sounds right and you are very lucky to have an ob/gyn you think highly of.
> > > How are you doing on day two of Parnate? With nardil, I had zero side effects from the beginning. Maybe others on the board can be helpful with knowing whether it took a while to adapt to parnate. You might ask, or first search the archives. I've never adjusted to any medication which gave me side effects at the beginning, but lots of people on the board have had the experience of it taking time to adjust to a med which turned out to be a success. I hope you're in that category. If not, there's always nardil.Yes, I should check other's reactions. I very frequently get the back ache thing from meds. I have read the archives--but didn't really see what I was looking for there. Maybe I'll do a general posting and see what people say.
> > > I do believe that I will either go back on nardil with concerta, or start parnate next week when the prozac is cleared out. I just took concerta (had already taken oxy a few hours ago) to see how I do on the two of them together. Today's the only day this week I can afford to lose so that's why I decided to do try it.Shelli, I'm glad to see that you are moving quickly on adjusting or changing your meds. Let me know how the concerta and oxy trial goes. The Parnate is having some positive effects--less aggitation than the selegiline and I suspect that the mood support is going to be more robust than stimulants or selegiline. We'll see.
> > > Actually, after yesterday's "seasickness" I am somewhat concerned that you haven't posted, and hope things are going better. Somehow though, I don't have a good intuition about your absence from the board today. I hope I'm wrong, and am looking forward to hearing.Thank-you for your concern. Things are better--although yesterday was rough because my 13 year old son lost his temper and started hitting me yesterday (he's 5'8" and strong) and telling me that he was going to kill me. It was very upsetting. First, it was hard to get "safe" because he wouldn't let me out of the room, then there was the issue of what to do to help him get control of his anger--trying to find a therapist and so forth. A real family crises. But I made it through and the family was able to talk it through last night and do some healing.
Shelli, so you know, I am one of those people who have "emergency" plans in place in case things get too tough. I have the book on suicide to read, the people to call, and at least one hospital that I could check myself in. I have never had to use my plan, but I have it in place because I believe that when things get rough sometimes it's easy to lose focus and I should just do step 1, then step 2 and so forth. I have also been blessed in that I don't have suicidal thoughts generally and have never attempted to harm myself.
Posted by Elizabeth on August 2, 2001, at 14:21:22
In reply to Re: Give me back my hand- (just kidding), posted by Lorraine on August 2, 2001, at 11:10:25
> I suppose the only difference would be that I would actually believe that I need to take anti-convulsants. He has me on them anyway, but I've always thought that that was just his med preference as opposed to understanding the need for taking them.
Do you feel like they've helped you? A doctor's preference isn't sufficient reason to stay on a drug that isn't doing much good.
> Well, I'm glad that I met Neal and if the opportunity came up I would encourage you to meet the psychobabbler.
I had an opportunity which I missed a while back. I kind of regret that I wasn't able to meet with the group.
> There is no commitment to meeting someone one time and there is always the possibility that you will meet someone with this illness that can be a real life friend.
Yes. This is one way in which I found support groups helpful. I think if I'd had my act more together in college, I might have started a support group (for people with psych disorders -- there were a lot of us at my school).
> I have good friends and some of them are depressed, but none of them have the type of treatment resistant depression or the degree of life impairment that I have so it is nice to meet someone who "gets" it without a lot of explanation.
I know what you mean. At present, none of the people I interact with day-to-day "gets it." I think that one of my friends who I see fairly often probably has depression and/or panic attacks, but she doesn't want to get treatment (she's seeing a therapist, but only very irregularly).
> It was a first day. My second day was better, but not great (I'm still on a low dose--5 mg 2x day and Neurontin 300 mg 3x day).
The split dose of Parnate is a good idea for minimising the initial side effects. (I would even consider going down to 5 mg once a day.) How do you get those tablets to break evenly, incidentally?
> I need to take it up slowly because I don't want hyperventilation to be a major problem.
Yeah, Parnate did that to me too at first (and again when I tried adding stimulants to it). Other than beta blockers and relaxation exercises, the only thing I can suggest is patience. I can't remember: did you ever try a cardioselective beta blocker (e.g., atenolol)?
> My pdoc says I can add Adderal to the mix, but I have a hunch I won't need to once I get to a therapeutic dose. I was able to REALLY sleep soundly last night and the night before, a luxury that the Adderal had impaired significantly.
Don't expect to sleep much once you're on a therapeutic dose of Parnate! What happens, IME, is that your sleep requirements go down, so that you feel rested after just 4-5 hours. On the other hand, a lot of people get drowsy in the afternoon on MAOIs: it might be that they just fragment your sleep or disrupt your circadian rhythm.
> I also learned that I can make it through a wash out period fairly functional by taking Adderal and Neurontin during it. This is actually good news.
It sure is. I'll make note of that. Do you think there were withdrawal symptoms precipitated by discontinuing the selegiline, or just a relapse?
> The problem is that I was out of town for a few days and then responded to each posting (I should have combined them like I am doing now).
Yeah, I've been trying to do that too. The thread had gotten pretty unwieldy!
> There actually is a lesson there for people who do not have alters--namely compartmentalizing when it is appropriate to have certain reactions.
That's something that never came naturally to me. (I think that's an ADD thing, perhaps.)
> For instance, I used to have shame spirals (fortunately therapy irradicated this one).
Okay, I have to ask: what do you mean by shame spirals?
> This is such a sweet way of looking at it. Did you ever resist or resent their presence?
I think that a lot of people with DID (or subclinical DID, like Shelli has) feel an attachment to their alters, and as a result they don't necessarily *want* to integrate. I think that if somebody is co-conscious and is otherwise functioning well and feeling okay, it's probably fine to choose not to integrate (if you have the choice). Although I do wonder what sort of effect this kind of compartmentalisation has on inter- and intrapersonal relations.
On to your other post:
> I ordered it from half.com. I'm not sure it is still in print, but at half.com you can get out of print or hard to locate books
Amazon does that too. I got my hands on some vintage psychiatry textbooks (odd thing to collect, I know) and a book my dad wrote back in the '70s from Amazon. (I'm really hoping he will be able to finish the book he's writing now -- it's going to be quite a piece of work.)
> I also ordered the PDR and got it for less than half price (which is still expensive, but look how much money I Saved).
That's cool. You might be able to find stuff like that (outdated PDRs) on eBay, too. I got my copies of Schatzberg & Nemeroff (both editions) from Amazon at about 2/3 the cover price (when they were new).
> I suppose you are right. The thing about when I worked out my traumas before was that I didn't "remember" certain things and so had to "try on" various scenarios and walk around with them for a week or so to see if they "fit".
Wow. How did you construct the scenarios in the first place?
> For instance, when I set my pajamas on fire when I was eight, I don't know if there was a precipitating incident or a suicidal intent or if I was just a kid playing with matches that panicked.
You and Shelli were quite the little pyromaniacs, weren't you? :-)
> There also was some sexual abuse by my father when I was older.
God, that's awful. How old were you? It's almost unbelievable that things like that happen (not that I don't believe you, it's just so horrible that I don't *want* to believe it).
> > > > Is your depression centered in a specific area of your body?
>
> I'm not sure.I'm still wondering what she meant by this. Shelli?
> I feel a lot of heaviness in my chest.
That must be pretty common, because a lot of people seem to experience it (hence the idiom "getting something off your chest").
> And I once worked with a massage therapist when I was during a wash out period and I think I cried the entire massage. She was wonderful and worked with me on breath (I was hyperventilating pretty badly at the time). I've had this happen before with other massage therapist who were emotionally oriented.
That's really interesting to me. I went to a massage therapist a few times when my back pain started (my GP recommended her). This was just massage, not massage + psychotherapy or anything. :-) The massage did help, but only for a short time, and after doing it for a couple months I decided that it wasn't worth the expense. (It sure was nice, though.)
> Yes, I should check other's reactions.
Here's one data point for you: I found that the sympathomimetic stimulation from Parnate became much less with time.
> I very frequently get the back ache thing from meds.
This is the kind of thing that gets me thinking, "I wonder what causes that?"
> Shelli, I'm glad to see that you are moving quickly on adjusting or changing your meds. Let me know how the concerta and oxy trial goes.
I'm still impressed that someone was willing to prescribe oxycodone for depression -- and I'm generally pretty optimistic about the chances of convincing a doctor to do something unorthodox. I don't think that there are too many references in the literature to this (although opium and its derivatives have been used as antidepressants for millennia).
> The Parnate is having some positive effects--less aggitation than the selegiline and I suspect that the mood support is going to be more robust than stimulants or selegiline. We'll see.
That was my experience with Parnate vs. selegiline. There are a lot of stimulants, and they vary in their central and peripheral effects. (Methamphetamine has the most favourable ratio of central to peripheral effects, which is also why people abuse it so much.)
> Thank-you for your concern. Things are better--although yesterday was rough because my 13 year old son lost his temper and started hitting me yesterday (he's 5'8" and strong) and telling me that he was going to kill me. It was very upsetting.
I can imagine! Does he have any psychological problems that you know of?
> ... But I made it through and the family was able to talk it through last night and do some healing.
That's good; it means that the whole incident wasn't completely negative -- you did get something of value out of it.
> I have also been blessed in that I don't have suicidal thoughts generally and have never attempted to harm myself.
I think it's reasonable to have a plan in case you ever do, since people generally aren't very clearheaded when they're feeling suicidal.
-elizabeth
Posted by shelliR on August 2, 2001, at 18:25:21
In reply to Re: Hope you're okay on your 2nd day of parnate » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on August 2, 2001, at 11:42:31
Hi Lorraine,
Hope you are having a third good day on parnate.
> > > >I have stopped the estrogen, at least until I talk with her.
> This sounds right and you are very lucky to have an ob/gyn you think highly of.yes, I wish she could be my internist and pdoc also.
BTW, what is the most accurate test for estrogen levels?
> > > > Actually, after yesterday's "seasickness" I am somewhat concerned that you haven't posted, and hope things are going better. Somehow though, I don't have a good intuition about your absence from the board today. I hope I'm wrong, and am looking forward to hearing.
>
> Thank-you for your concern. Things are better--although yesterday was rough because my 13 year old son lost his temper and started hitting me yesterday (he's 5'8" and strong) and telling me that he was going to kill me. It was very upsetting. First, it was hard to get "safe" because he wouldn't let me out of the room, then there was the issue of what to do to help him get control of his anger--trying to find a therapist and so forth. A real family crises. But I made it through and the family was able to talk it through last night and do some healing.Once in my house, a client was over with her son and daugher and she said something that embarrassed him horribly and he threatened to kill her. I was not in the room--the daughter and I were downstairs, so I didn't even know that this happened until later. He was only eleven but his mom was really scared and did get him to a shrink I think. She should not have said what she did, (it was meant to tease, not to humiliate), but to have your son say I'll kill you is very scarey. I glad you all were able to talk it through.
>
> Shelli, so you know, I am one of those people who have "emergency" plans in place in case things get too tough. I have the book on suicide to read, the people to call, and at least one hospital that I could check myself in. I have never had to use my plan, but I have it in place because I believe that when things get rough sometimes it's easy to lose focus and I should just do step 1, then step 2 and so forth. I have also been blessed in that I don't have suicidal thoughts generally and have never attempted to harm myself.
I'm glad to know that both that you rarely have suicidal thoughts AND that you have a plan if you do.
I actually wasn't thinking that you were going to harm yourself, I was just afraid you were having a really sick day from the parnate. It seems like you are feeling very optimistic about the parnate and I am for you also. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'll start parnate next week rather than nardil with concerta. Yesterday oxycontin with concera was fine until the early evening, when I felt a little sick in my stomach and totally exhausted When I tried to take a nap, I couldn't fall asleep. So last night I was a complete zombie, didn't do the treadmill or work. And then I had trouble falling asleep at 1am. So I'm still not real positive about stimulents for me.more to come in another post..
Shelli
Posted by terra miller on August 2, 2001, at 18:27:26
In reply to mostly to Lorraine but others feel free to jump in, posted by Elizabeth on August 2, 2001, at 14:21:22
hi, i've been trying to understand this thread and i think i give up *grin* mostly because i can't tell who is saying what and when.... and that's probably because i'm reading posts backwards or at random *S*
anyway, to whichever of you this applies i just wanted to say that i have laughed and laughed because of the stories that are too similar for words to what my life is like currently trying to live day to day as one person with many opinions (the comment about not eating was particularly humorous because i can miss many meals and not know it so i have "little" reminders who wake me up poking me in the middle of the night to tell me how starving they are and then i have to try to remember when i ate last, which i can rarely recall, while arguing over whether to eat the healthy l/o chicken or the chocolate donut.) anyway, just wanted to say thanks or something like that.
since elizabeth said to "jump in" i wanted to ask a question: is it difficult to get your meds to work the right way? do you have to "talk yourself" through how and when you take a certain med? i'd be grateful for anything of help you might have to add. and thanks for allowing me to jump into your current discussion. sincerely -terra
Posted by Lorraine on August 2, 2001, at 20:41:39
In reply to spelling, etc. » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on August 1, 2001, at 13:59:02
> > > "Tranylcypromine." There's a toughie; I guess that means it should keep working for a while. < g >
Well, at least we know that I will never be able to spell it.
> > > That reminds me to contact my pdoc for an article that he says just came out about the development of more MAOs.
>
> Probably reversible ones, though. I don't know if this is generally the case, but moclobemide (Manerix, Aurorix) has a reputation for being, well, lame. Do you recall the name of the article, any of the authors, or anything else that could help me look it up?No, I don't recall any of the details. I'll call him tomorrow. I don't think it is about Mocobemide, which I was on for about 3 mos and didn't find lame--I just couldn't handle the aggitation that I had with it, but then I don't think we tried Neurontin with it. I'll post the name of the article when I get it--his secretary will not know the name of it, so she'll ask him and then she will mail it to me. Maybe Journal of Clinical Psychiatry or J of Psychiatry? New issue. I'll keep you posted.
[error]
Posted by shelliR on August 2, 2001, at 21:15:43
In reply to Re: mostly to one of the three of you :-), posted by terra miller on August 2, 2001, at 18:27:26
Hi Terra.
> hi, i've been trying to understand this thread and i think i give up *grin* mostly because i can't tell who is saying what and when.... and that's probably because i'm reading posts backwards or at random *S*
>
It's actually hard for me to get clear who is writing and who is being quoted, as well.> anyway, to whichever of you this applies i just wanted to say that i have laughed and laughed because of the stories that are too similar for words to what my life is like currently trying to live day to day as one person with many opinions (the comment about not eating was particularly humorous because i can miss many meals and not know it so i have "little" reminders who wake me up poking me in the middle of the night to tell me how starving they are and then i have to try to remember when i ate last, which i can rarely recall, while arguing over whether to eat the healthy l/o chicken or the chocolate donut.) anyway, just wanted to say thanks or something like that.
Ah, I think that would be me you are addressing! I have weird children. They woke up at night in the hospital and asked my roommate to get them soy milk because they were thirsty :-) Yours sound more normal--chocolate donuts--definitely.
> since elizabeth said to "jump in" i wanted to ask a question: is it difficult to get your meds to work the right way? do you have to "talk yourself" through how and when you take a certain med?
I don't know what you mean by "get your meds to work the right way?" Do you mean kids inside don't want to swallow pills? Or different pills are for different parts? I don't think it's something that comes up for me, but I'm not sure if I know what you mean.
Could you explain?shelli
Posted by Lorraine on August 2, 2001, at 21:57:12
In reply to mostly to Lorraine but others feel free to jump in, posted by Elizabeth on August 2, 2001, at 14:21:05
[re: anti-convulsants
> > > Do you feel like they've helped you? A doctor's preference isn't sufficient reason to stay on a drug that isn't doing much good.I think it's more than preference--my QEEG showed some seizure like activity in my temporal lobes. As to my response, I do feel the Neurontin has helped me. But it's odd--with the selegiline it actually provided some mood support, which I wasn't expect but my pdoc was. Now the Neurontin helps with my physical anxiety. Interesting issue that you raised was the hypomania and I suspect that I have had that pretty regularly throughout my life. Jumping into projects with a flurry of energy, zeal and racing thoughts only to leave them half completed. After I was on Neurontin for a while, I told my pdoc that I thought that I was thinking less circularly (as in running around in circles) and that I was doing more "productive" work. So I have to give the Neurontin thumbs up, although I hated depakote and lomictol. I have cognitive impairment (working memory and so forth) from my depression and am leary about anti-convulsants that add to this problem.
> > > I had an opportunity which I missed a while back. I kind of regret that I wasn't able to meet with the group.
It may come again, or you can do what Neal did and post a message here asking psychobabblers in your neck of the woods to email you.
> > > I think if I'd had my act more together in college, I might have started a support group (for people with psych disorders -- there were a lot of us at my school).
Aren't you still in school? Graduate or finishing school < g >? I always wonder how you manage to be so future oriented (or is it just my perception?) with this disease. I find myself so uncertain day to day about how my mood will be that I've lost the future so to speak.
> > > I know what you mean. At present, none of the people I interact with day-to-day "gets it." I think that one of my friends who I see fairly often probably has depression and/or panic attacks, but she doesn't want to get treatment (she's seeing a therapist, but only very irregularly).
do you ever want to shake her and say "this disease is progressive. stop fooling around?" I have a friend like that who actually has been on ADs on and off. I'm afraid she'll end up like me and have a tough time finding something that works if she keeps this up. Plus I do believe that untreated depression leads to brain damage.
> > > The split dose of Parnate is a good idea for minimising the initial side effects. (I would even consider going down to 5 mg once a day.) How do you get those tablets to break evenly, incidentally?Well, of course, I do have the expert KMART pill splitter, and, who said I break them "evenly". I can't even break scored tablets evenly. I just save the small halves and use them as I titrate up. The 5 mg 2x a day seems ok. I think I'll continue with this for the rest of the week. I've only felt the shortness of breath slightly.
>
> > >I can't remember: did you ever try a cardioselective beta blocker (e.g., atenolol)?
I tried propanolol. But it was too wierd for me and didn't really help. Me and my pdoc debated trying atenolol and decided it was time to move on generally. Thanks for the warning on sleep. I had that on moclobemide too and it was unsettling to me. I never felt rested.
>
> > > It sure is. I'll make note of that. Do you think there were withdrawal symptoms precipitated by discontinuing the selegiline, or just a relapse?I increased my adderal from 7 mg 2x day to 10 mg 2x a day and really didn't feel any withdrawal symptoms--although I was hidiously distracted at the time, painting some rooms in my house. Still, I felt sublime sometimes and, of course, was very productive.
> > > For instance, I used to have shame spirals (fortunately therapy irradicated this one).
>
> Okay, I have to ask: what do you mean by shame spirals?A shame spiral for me was a hole that I would fall in precipitously whenever my old shame injury got bumped up against in the normal day to day living. For instance, my boss would publicly shame me and I would not just feel ashamed, I would feel the amount of shame that I felt as a child when I was publicly humiliated (the other kids made fun of my scars) which was a very deep pit that would take me a couple days to climb out of. It really was awful and I didn't understand what was going on--why I was over-reacting and riding this merry-go-round. I sure am glad to have it out of my life.
> > > I think that a lot of people with DID (or subclinical DID, like Shelli has) feel an attachment to their alters, and as a result they don't necessarily *want* to integrate. I think that if somebody is co-conscious and is otherwise functioning well and feeling okay, it's probably fine to choose not to integrate (if you have the choice).
Yeah, I just think how hard it was for me to embrace the 8 year old that had been injured in me and have to feel envious that she feels this close to her alters. I think it's great.
> > >a book my dad wrote back in the '70s from Amazon. (I'm really hoping he will be able to finish the book he's writing now -- it's going to be quite a piece of work.)Really? what's it about?
> > >You might be able to find stuff like that (outdated PDRs) on eBay, too. I got my copies of Schatzberg & Nemeroff (both editions) from Amazon at about 2/3 the cover price (when they were new).
I think I tried ebay, no luck. Hmmm Nemeroff, maybe I should get that too. Say, do you own stock in a publishing company? < g >
> > > I suppose you are right. The thing about when I worked out my traumas before was that I didn't "remember" certain things and so had to "try on" various scenarios and walk around with them for a week or so to see if they "fit".
>
> Wow. How did you construct the scenarios in the first place?Well, I did remember that I set my pajamas on fire. I did remember how I did that and how I felt (dissociated?). I just didn't know the context. I knew my mom was having suicidal thoughts at the time. I knew my mom and dad were fighting. I was just missing that glue--was it childish exploration gone awry or some type of acting out? those are the two scenarios I tried on.
> > > You and Shelli were quite the little pyromaniacs, weren't you? :-)That, we are. Of course, my kids barely know how to light a candle. You can imagine how I "controlled" this possibility. It's funny, but when my kids reached about the age I was when the accident happened, I had some major anniversary type issues come up about them and fears for their safety and fear that I was emotionally abandoning them.
> > > There also was some sexual abuse by my father when I was older.
>
> God, that's awful. How old were you?I was 15 or 16. It is awful because it is a breach of trust between a parent and child, but the abuse was pretty mild.
> > > I feel a lot of heaviness in my chest.
>
(hence the idiom "getting something off your chest").You're right. Good connection.
> > > That's really interesting to me. I went to a massage therapist a few times when my back pain started (my GP recommended her).
The times I reacted were when I was with a therapist who happened to be a healing type of therapist. I don't have this reaction with normal massage therapists.
> > > Here's one data point for you: I found that the sympathomimetic stimulation from Parnate became much less with time.I'm very pleased to hear this!
>
> > > I very frequently get the back ache thing from meds.
>
> This is the kind of thing that gets me thinking, "I wonder what causes that?"Well, it's like dystonia (mild). I had it first with Zoloft. I had terrible back aches and would find myself in an ordinary phone conversation gripping the phone very tightly. I don't think it is that uncommon a side effect of a lot of these meds. I used to think my back aches were physical problems until I started tracking how meds affected them. What about your back ache--were you on meds at the time?
> > > The Parnate mood support is going to be more robust than stimulants or selegiline. We'll see.
>
> That was my experience with Parnate vs. selegiline.I'm glad to hear that.
> > >There are a lot of stimulants, and they vary in their central and peripheral effects. (Methamphetamine has the most favourable ratio of central to peripheral effects, which is also why people abuse it so much.)
My pdoc was willing to prescribe this for me, but I didn't want it. It seems like a possibility to try much later if the MAOs and TCAs fail me. By the way, Adderal kept me "awake" but otherwise didn't affect me too badly--didn't cause hyperventilation for instance. Shelli's cylert is supposed to be mild as well and might be worth a try if I need a stimulant in the future.
[re: son's attack]
> > > I can imagine! Does he have any psychological problems that you know of?He has a learning disability (dyslexia) and possibly undiagnosed ADD sort of stuff. He has anger management issues--has had them since he was quite young. He has mild generalized anxiety and is a bit compulsive. We are teaching him coping skills. He actually has made remarkable progress--it's been a year or so since he lost his temper like that. Apparently, a girl had broken up with him which added fuel to the fire when I was grounding him for misbehavior (lying). I'm thinking about cognitive therapy. He will go back to therapy as a consequence of this. I've thought of having him formally evaluated, but my therapist feels it's not necessary. (and, in truth, i would be soooo reluctant to medicate a teen in part because they don't have a sexual identity or knowledge so if a med affects their sexuality they will just assume that that is "who they are" -- i also have the same issue with identity development generally in teens and feel that unless it is really necessary to medicate them, we should let them get a sense of who they are in the raw state.) I know you were diagnosed young. Were you medicated? If you were, do you feel it impacted your developing sense of identity (other than the fact that being medicated for a mental illness is a head trip anyway) or affected your developing sense of sexuality? My niece is 15 and was diagnosed OCD and put on Luvox. I think it was necessary for her to be medicated, but I do worry--especially about her sexuality given the side effects of SSRIs generally.
> > >it means that the whole incident wasn't completely negative -- you did get something of value out of it.
we always do :-)
Say, how is desipramine treating you?
Posted by Lorraine on August 2, 2001, at 22:09:50
In reply to Re: Hope you're okay on your 3nd day of parnate » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on August 2, 2001, at 18:25:21
Hi Shelli,
>
> Hope you are having a third good day on parnate.
>I am having a good third day--more mood support, still a bit draggy and very mild hyperventilating. I am optimistic.
> > > BTW, what is the most accurate test for estrogen levels?I believe that it is a saliva test, in your case (pre-menopausal) over a period of time (one cycle). Great Smokies Diagnostic Laboratories offers one. I don't know if their's is the best, although I do know that this laboratory is generally highly regarded among functional med doctors.
> > > I'm glad to know that both that you rarely have suicidal thoughts AND that you have a plan if you do.
What about you? Do you have a plan as well? And do you get suicidal thoughts? I know that you seem quite responsible about checking yourself into the hospital when you feel you need to.
> > > I'm pretty sure I'll start parnate next week.I wish you luck on it. Didn't you want to wait to see how the guinea pig did for the whole trial period < g >.
> > >Yesterday oxycontin with concera was fine until the early evening, when I felt a little sick in my stomach and totally exhausted When I tried to take a nap, I couldn't fall asleep. So last night I was a complete zombie, didn't do the treadmill or work. And then I had trouble falling asleep at 1am. So I'm still not real positive about stimulents for me.
Sounds wretched to me. Out of curiousity, which stimulants have you tried? Adderal? Provigal? Just wondering. By the way, the Neurontin (my 3 dose at night before bed) helps with getting to sleep.
Lorraine
Posted by Lorraine on August 2, 2001, at 22:25:46
In reply to Re: mostly to Lorraine but others feel free to jump in » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on August 2, 2001, at 21:04:23
> > > subclinical DID"! Did you create a new diagnosis for me :-)
Isn't that cool? Your very own personalized diagnosis. How considerate of you, elizabeth.< g >
> > > Me too! I was just working up to reentering the world of intimacy when I got rezapped with this depression. To be in a relationship with the depression is one thing; to start one is another.
I honestly can't imagine where I'd find the resources to do this.
>
> > > There also was some sexual abuse by my father when I was older.
> >
>
> Wow, I'm sorry Lorraine. I'm amazed with your past how well you have been able to handle a long-term intimate relationship with your husband. I give you lots of credit. (and your husband too, if he deserves it and it sounds like he does also).It's funny. My mom was sexually abused from the age of 7 to 12 (as was her sister, neither was aware of the abuse to the other until they were in their 60s and finally talked about it). My mom has a robust sexual appetite--always did and was frustrated by my father's lack of interest. My abuse was not until I was 15 or 16 and it was mild. So I don't think it affected my sexuality much. My husband has not had to be understanding about my past because for the most part it hasn't affected him. I did find him to be very unsympathetic about my sexual dysfunction caused by SSRIs, especially after he started taking Viagra < vbg >. In the end, you know, asking someone who is not impaired to give up their sex life is actually a pretty big deal.
> > > Well, if the depression feels in your body, then body therapy might be really helpful. Especially now that you've (L.) talked about abuse, I said before that I believe that horrible experiences in childhood, get sort of calcified in the body. For instance if someone is hurting you, you often hold your breath. If getting hurt (or abused) is a pattern, your body starts anticipating and after a while, your body has changed. I think body therapy can help reprogram your body to be the way it's supposed to be-more fluid, etc.This makes sense. I'll look into it. And, I'm sure being burned and being in the hospital in isolation (under one of those tents) also got etched in my body.
> > > I love the word robust. Especially when describing medications :-)Me too. Let's hope it lasts.
Lorraine
Posted by Elizabeth on August 2, 2001, at 22:43:15
In reply to Re: mostly to Lorraine but others feel free to jump in » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on August 2, 2001, at 21:04:23
> subclinical DID"! Did you create a new diagnosis for me :-)
No, it's just a more specific way to describe your DD-NOS. (Sorry to disappoint. < g >)
> I starting to lose the effect of the oxycontin.
That's really too bad. I'd heard of several cases where people took opioids, including oxycodone (also morphine, methadone, buprenorphine, and oxymorphone), for depression without becoming tolerant, and I'd hoped that you would have the same good luck. Maybe you could continue it on an intermittent, as-needed basis (as you had been doing with the hydro)?
> Actually what I have now is the generic of lortab 7.5/500 and it doesn't feel nearly as strong to me.
Huh. What was the dose in the Vicodin you were taking before? (The most favourable ratio is in Norco 10/325.)
> Maybe that's because I've been taking oxycontin 10mg, bid, so 1/2 of 7.5 doesn't feel the same.
That seems likely. Oxycodone is definitely stronger than hydrocodone.
> It's definitely time for me to get on an AD. I think I will start parnate next week.
Best of luck to you. I found it quite tolerable once I figured out how to get around the spontaneous paroxysmal hypertension I was getting about 30 minutes after taking it. It turned out that I needed to take it in divided doses of no more than 10 mg each -- for quite a while I was taking it six times a day. Desipramine seems to be working as well as Parnate did for me, without the hypertension and insomnia and the limitations on what other medications I can use to augment it. I was pretty stunned to learn how high my serum level was (could have been a lab error but I doubt it), because I'm not really noticing many side effects.
-elizabeth
Posted by terra miller on August 2, 2001, at 23:21:16
In reply to Re: mostly to one of the three of you :-) » terra miller, posted by shelliR on August 2, 2001, at 21:15:43
> Ah, I think that would be me you are addressing!hello. :-)
>I have weird children. They woke up at night in the hospital and asked my roommate to get them soy milk because they were thirsty :-) Yours sound more normal--chocolate donuts--definitely.
:-) funny you should mention soymilk. :-)
> I don't know what you mean by "get your meds to work the right way?" Do you mean kids inside don't want to swallow pills? Or different pills are for different parts? I don't think it's something that comes up for me, but I'm not sure if I know what you mean.
yeah. here's the deal. we take wellbutrin. we've went through a whole line of AD's. for a while i forgot why i started even looking for meds. then i remembered that we have suicide issues from time to time that put us in danger and need to be dealt with, like it or not. so it's kind of a "you will take this whether you want to or not" kind of thing. and the wellbutrin has been very helpful to calm whoever it is that needs it... which is hard to describe except that i know that i know that i know that somebody in here is being helped and that i no longer can "get suicidal" even if i wanted to. it's hard to explain it.
but when it comes to sleeping meds. that's another story. i can drug myself up only to find myself wandering around the house looking for food. or i can not drug myself up and find myself wandering around the house. at least i "come to." before, i wouldn't "come to" but somebody was smart enough to leave a trail (that is, empty cans of dt.pepsi on the counter) so that i would know the next morning that i had been up in the middle of the night. i'd do things and accomplish things and, well, sigh. anyway, so i have to do all this communicating to "bargain" for a complete night's sleep. same with anxiety meds. can't get them to work either. just sometimes. and i can't drink anymore... two sips and i feel it... except parts of me can drink a truckdriver under the table, so it depends. i've just read other people saying that it's just too difficult to prescribe meds to people with DID (example: an alter with diabetes vs. other part which does not) and have been told by some that they just gave up on meds altogether because it had become such a battle and was unhelpful. so that's why i was wondering if anybody had an answer to this dilemma.
it's so confusing. you've got one body and one brain. and you've just got this brain that made all these compartments so you could handle everything. but you've still just got one brain and one body. i don't get how one brain could function as many brains and respond chemically different in those different "parts." it's still just one brain and one body. i can't understand it.
thanks for writing -terra
Posted by Elizabeth on August 2, 2001, at 23:47:39
In reply to Re: mostly response to Lorraine but do jump in, posted by Lorraine on August 2, 2001, at 21:57:12
> I think it's more than preference--my QEEG showed some seizure like activity in my temporal lobes. As to my response, I do feel the Neurontin has helped me.
Well, then by all means continue taking it.
> Interesting issue that you raised was the hypomania and I suspect that I have had that pretty regularly throughout my life. Jumping into projects with a flurry of energy, zeal and racing thoughts only to leave them half completed.
That sounds to me more like ADD behaviour, actually.
> After I was on Neurontin for a while, I told my pdoc that I thought that I was thinking less circularly (as in running around in circles) and that I was doing more "productive" work.
That's very cool. Perhaps your problems focussing are related to anxiety or seizurelike activity. TLE often does weird things to people -- globally, not just when they have a seizure.
> So I have to give the Neurontin thumbs up, although I hated depakote and lomictol.
I think Neurontin would have to be my favourite of those three, too. Depakote and Lamictal just didn't do *anything* for me (no significant side effects and no good effects either). That was when I'd been taking Nardil on and off and was having really bad mood swings which led my pdoc to believe I might be bipolar (the moods resembled dysphoric or mixed mania -- MAOI withdrawal is *really* hellish).
> I have cognitive impairment (working memory and so forth) from my depression and am leary about anti-convulsants that add to this problem.
I think I might have an acquired attention disorder secondary to depression (I did have some ADD-like traits as a child but I probably wouldn't have met the diagnostic criteria). This is really hard because being able to think clearly and focus has always been very important to me. I sure hope that it can be corrected or at least treated.
> > > > I think if I'd had my act more together in college, I might have started a support group (for people with psych disorders -- there were a lot of us at my school).
>
> Aren't you still in school? Graduate or finishing school < g >?I got my degree (bachelor of science in math) in '97. I've been taking undergraduate classes with the goal of applying to medical school. (I didn't take organic chemistry, biology, etc. in college. Biology became a required course for the class that started after me, and I had placed out of the chemistry requirement by taking AP chemistry, but that wasn't enough to satisfy medical schools so I had to retake it.)
> I always wonder how you manage to be so future oriented (or is it just my perception?) with this disease. I find myself so uncertain day to day about how my mood will be that I've lost the future so to speak.
I brood about the future a lot. Anyway, I'm not really depressed right now (there's no question in my mind that the desipramine is working), just feeling anergic and having some trouble concentrating. My general mood is very much improved.
> > I think that one of my friends who I see fairly often probably has depression and/or panic attacks, but she doesn't want to get treatment (she's seeing a therapist, but only very irregularly).
>
> do you ever want to shake her and say "this disease is progressive. stop fooling around?"She doesn't accept the idea that it's a disease, and she loathes the thought of taking medications (for some reason that I'm not quite clear on -- she knows I take them, and she has a brother who takes them too).
> I have a friend like that who actually has been on ADs on and off. I'm afraid she'll end up like me and have a tough time finding something that works if she keeps this up. Plus I do believe that untreated depression leads to brain damage.
Me too. And the on-and-off thing is very destabilising.
> Well, of course, I do have the expert KMART pill splitter, and, who said I break them "evenly". I can't even break scored tablets evenly.
Ahh yes, the famous pill guillotine. I need to swing by K-Mart and get myself one of those. :-)
Most scores suck. Xanax and Desyrel Dividose both break pretty well, though. Adderall is lame -- you really need a splitter to get those to break even close to evenly.
> I just save the small halves and use them as I titrate up. The 5 mg 2x a day seems ok. I think I'll continue with this for the rest of the week. I've only felt the shortness of breath slightly.
Well, that's good to hear. I think that many side effects don't cause much discomfort, especially the ones that go away with time.
> I tried propanolol. But it was too wierd for me and didn't really help. Me and my pdoc debated trying atenolol and decided it was time to move on generally.
Hmm. Well, it might be worth it if the autonomic activation causes you too much discomfort.
> Thanks for the warning on sleep. I had that on moclobemide too and it was unsettling to me. I never felt rested.
My experience with MAOIs has been that I do feel rested, that they decrease my sleep requirements.
> I increased my adderal from 7 mg 2x day to 10 mg 2x a day and really didn't feel any withdrawal symptoms--although I was hidiously distracted at the time, painting some rooms in my house. Still, I felt sublime sometimes and, of course, was very productive.
That's good. Sometimes stressful situations can make withdrawal symptoms harder to bear, but on the other hand, keeping yourself distracted can help.
> A shame spiral for me was a hole that I would fall in precipitously whenever my old shame injury got bumped up against in the normal day to day living. For instance, my boss would publicly shame me and I would not just feel ashamed, I would feel the amount of shame that I felt as a child when I was publicly humiliated (the other kids made fun of my scars) which was a very deep pit that would take me a couple days to climb out of. It really was awful and I didn't understand what was going on--why I was over-reacting and riding this merry-go-round. I sure am glad to have it out of my life.
Ahh, I can understand that. (Can I ask whence the scars? I don't think I've seen you mention that before.)
> Yeah, I just think how hard it was for me to embrace the 8 year old that had been injured in me and have to feel envious that she feels this close to her alters. I think it's great.
I think it sounds pretty cool, too.
> > a book my dad wrote back in the '70s from Amazon. (I'm really hoping he will be able to finish the book he's writing now -- it's going to be quite a piece of work.)
>
> Really? what's it about?My dad's a professor (both my parents are) -- his field is philosophy and history of science. It's not light reading. < g >
> I think I tried ebay, no luck. Hmmm Nemeroff, maybe I should get that too. Say, do you own stock in a publishing company? < g >
Schatzberg & Nemeroff are the editors -- it's a psychopharmacology textbook. I did get a copy of DSM-III on eBay.
I don't have any investments, no. (What do you expect? I'm a starving grad student type. < g >)
> I was 15 or 16. It is awful because it is a breach of trust between a parent and child, but the abuse was pretty mild.
Small comfort. Still, it's probably less damaging if it happened when you were older.
> > > > I very frequently get the back ache thing from meds.
> >
> > This is the kind of thing that gets me thinking, "I wonder what causes that?"
>
> Well, it's like dystonia (mild).You think so? Hmm. I don't know too much about dystonias, but that doesn't sound like any one that I've heard about.
FWIW, the time that I was first diagnosed with depression (when I was 14), I was having very bad headaches. Prozac did away with them, so I have to credit it for that, at least.
> I don't think it is that uncommon a side effect of a lot of these meds.
Maybe not, but that still doesn't answer the question: *why* do meds cause it?
> I used to think my back aches were physical problems until I started tracking how meds affected them. What about your back ache--were you on meds at the time?
It isn't medication induced -- it's been a chronic thing (started in fall '95), and there is a mechanical problem that probably contributes to it (local steroid injection made it go away for about a week). Nardil did make it go away (so does buprenorphine, of course). Soma works sometimes, but it's not as reliable. It also waxes and wanes in intensity. There are probably multiple factors contributing. But anyway, the fact that centrally acting drugs sometimes alleviate pain doesn't necessarily mean that the pain is "psychogenic." I did track my back pain for a while but couldn't find any correlations other than that it went away completely when I was taking Nardil.
> My pdoc was willing to prescribe this for me, but I didn't want it. It seems like a possibility to try much later if the MAOs and TCAs fail me.
Desoxyn, you mean? That's cool that your pdoc was willing to consider it. I think most of them shy away because of its reputation.
> Shelli's cylert is supposed to be mild as well and might be worth a try if I need a stimulant in the future.
I took Cylert for a while in college. It was pretty helpful. Unfortunately it's been "black-boxed" -- the labelling contains a big, conspicuous warning at the top about potential hepatotoxicity -- so doctors have been less willing to prescribe it.
[re your son]
> He has a learning disability (dyslexia) and possibly undiagnosed ADD sort of stuff.I think that a lot of different childhood disorders all get lumped together as "ADD."
> He has anger management issues--has had them since he was quite young. He has mild generalized anxiety and is a bit compulsive. We are teaching him coping skills. He actually has made remarkable progress--it's been a year or so since he lost his temper like that.
That's good. It's not easy to help children or adolescents with psychological difficulties, but it's definitely worthwhile to try.
> I've thought of having him formally evaluated, but my therapist feels it's not necessary. (and, in truth, i would be soooo reluctant to medicate a teen in part because they don't have a sexual identity or knowledge so if a med affects their sexuality they will just assume that that is "who they are"
May I offer a counterexample? I was 14 when I started taking Prozac, and while Prozac didn't cause me much difficulty, I most definitely did have a sexual identity by that age.
> I know you were diagnosed young. Were you medicated?
(see above)
> If you were, do you feel it impacted your developing sense of identity (other than the fact that being medicated for a mental illness is a head trip anyway) or affected your developing sense of sexuality?
No. But remaining depressed would almost certainly have stunted my emotional growth.
> My niece is 15 and was diagnosed OCD and put on Luvox. I think it was necessary for her to be medicated, but I do worry--especially about her sexuality given the side effects of SSRIs generally.
Is she doing CBT too? That's supposedly very effective for OCD.
> Say, how is desipramine treating you?
Well, I went in to repeat the serum level test (the first test gave a rather high number), but I haven't gotten the results. It's definitely working somewhat (a pleasant surprise), and things may still get better since I haven't been on it all that long. I'm not sure what my pdoc will want to do if this test comes back high too. An ECG would seem to me to be the logical course of action.
-elizabeth
Posted by shelliR on August 2, 2001, at 23:49:33
In reply to stuff » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on August 2, 2001, at 22:43:15
> > subclinical DID"! Did you create a new diagnosis for me :-)
>
> No, it's just a more specific way to describe your DD-NOS. (Sorry to disappoint. < g >)I think it was Colin Ross who wrote an article about the DD-NOS diagnosis, saying that there were some very distinct diagnosis in that general diagnosis that should be identified on their own. He divided NOS into different categories: one subset: all but MPD, including "co-conscious MPD". I definitely agree with him because I think less people in the institutions known for diagnosing almost everyone with a DD as DID, might be less inclined to do so, if the distinctions were written out clearly.
> > I starting to lose the effect of the oxycontin.
> That's really too bad. I'd heard of several cases where people took opioids, including oxycodone (also morphine, methadone, buprenorphine, and oxymorphone), for depression without becoming tolerant, and I'd hoped that you would have the same good luck. Maybe you could continue it on an intermittent, as-needed basis (as you had been doing with the hydro)?I have been so depressed during the last few weeks that an as-needed basis would be all the time.
That's why I'm going to start parnate next week; at least that's my plan for today.
>
> > Actually what I have now is the generic of lortab 7.5/500 and it doesn't feel nearly as strong to me.
> Huh. What was the dose in the Vicodin you were taking before? (The most favourable ratio is in Norco 10/325.)
I was taking 7.5/750 of vicodin and 10/500 lortab. Does the APAP affect the condone part? When you say most favorable ratio, do you mean because you are getting less APAP in your body or because the ratio would affect its effects on your depression?
>
> > Maybe that's because I've been taking oxycontin 10mg, bid, so 1/2 of 7.5 doesn't feel the same.
> That seems likely. Oxycodone is definitely stronger than hydrocodone.Okay, what I still don't understand is this: Isn't 10mg of oxycontin the same as 10mg of vicodin -like 10/500 of vicodin is the same only the vicodin has APAP with the codone?
And same with 10mg vicodin vs 10mg lortab-same amount of synethic codeine, right?
>Desipramine seems to be working as well as Parnate did for me, without the hypertension and insomnia and the limitations on what other medications I can use to augment it. I was pretty stunned to learn how high my serum level was (could have been a lab error but I doubt it), because I'm not really noticing many side effects.
>Elizabeth, the desipramine sounds pretty incredible for you. Around what year did desipramine come on the market?
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on August 3, 2001, at 0:15:37
In reply to drugs stuff » shelliR, posted by terra miller on August 2, 2001, at 23:21:16
>
> it's so confusing. you've got one body and one brain. and you've just got this brain that made all these compartments so you could handle everything. but you've still just got one brain and one body. i don't get how one brain could function as many brains and respond chemically different in those different "parts." it's still just one brain and one body. i can't understand it.
>
> thanks for writing -terraTerra, I don't really know what to say. I've been in the hospital with a lot of DID people and everybody's been on medication. I don't think it's really looked at as taking klonopin for "Amy" or effexor for "Diana". At least that's never been my impression. I think that by taking ADs benzos, whatever, you are basically treating the whole body for PTSD symptoms. I also look at it as the calmer I am and the less depressed I am, the easier it is for everyone else since I am definitely in charge. In cases where there are several adults, the central person may be less clear, but still I think the adults are being medicated, because our bodies are adult bodies. Anyway, that's how I see it, perhaps because the med thing hasn't felt complicated for me in that sense. More complicated in the sense of trying to control my depression when so many ADs have not worked for me.
I know that there are several DID boards on the internet; I don't know if they would be helpful because my issues right now are much more around depression. You might consider checking them out, if you haven't already.Shelli
Posted by Lorraine on August 3, 2001, at 12:28:54
In reply to Re: jumping in » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on August 2, 2001, at 23:47:39
> > > Interesting issue that you raised was the hypomania and I suspect that I have had that pretty regularly throughout my life. Jumping into projects with a flurry of energy, zeal and racing thoughts only to leave them half completed.
>
> That sounds to me more like ADD behaviour, actually.Well, I do have ADD like cognitive issues now clearly. But what I'm talking about above just involves a level of energy, exhilerating, and exhaltation of self that seems odd. I mean I have come to "distrust" myself when I have a sudden interest in something. My husband distrusts it also and it has become somewhat of a joke among my friends "oh, that's just Lorraine, first she reads the 30 books on the subject, then...."
>
> > After I was on Neurontin for a while, I told my pdoc that I thought that I was thinking less circularly (as in running around in circles) and that I was doing more "productive" work.
>
> That's very cool. Perhaps your problems focussing are related to anxiety or seizurelike activity. TLE often does weird things to people -- globally, not just when they have a seizure.Yeah, who knows "why" it's working--it's not clear that it matters really.
> > >That was when I'd been taking Nardil on and off and was having really bad mood swings which led my pdoc to believe I might be bipolar (the moods resembled dysphoric or mixed mania -- MAOI withdrawal is *really* hellish).
A skipped dose of Effexor did this to me and withdrawal from it was really, really awful. Is there anything to alleviate MAOI withdrawal if it comes down to that? I had no withdrawal from Moclobemide by the way or selegiline. But then the stimulants and anti-convulsants during the wash out may have just been the ticket. I'm off the Adderal now too, no withdrawal.
> > > I think I might have an acquired attention disorder secondary to depression (I did have some ADD-like traits as a child but I probably wouldn't have met the diagnostic criteria). This is really hard because being able to think clearly and focus has always been very important to me. I sure hope that it can be corrected or at least treated.
There is also something called depression induced dementia, which has a lot of cognitive impairment features as you would expect. One cool thing about my pdoc is that he really cares about cognitive impairment. So if I say that a drug is dummying me down, he'll switch it out immediately. Cognitive impairment is really awful I think especially if your life has revolved much around your intellectual activities. It must be distressing to you. My SIL--who believes that depression is all in your mind--tells me to just sit with the depression and let it take it's course and quit fighting it. I tell her it is like asking someone to just sit with Alzheimers.
> > > I got my degree (bachelor of science in math) in '97. I've been taking undergraduate classes with the goal of applying to medical school. (I didn't take organic chemistry, biology, etc. in college. Biology became a required course for the class that started after me, and I had placed out of the chemistry requirement by taking AP chemistry, but that wasn't enough to satisfy medical schools so I had to retake it.)Very cool. I'm impressed. When my daughter was entering kindergarten she said "my god, I have 13 years before I am out of school". At the time, I was getting my second graduate degree and told her that I had 23 years of education. Although, I think I'm finally burned out. I realized, for one thing, that I learn better by reading rather than listening to lectures--so I was always the student buying supplemental text books if I didn't understand a professor. And, I think the concept of memorizing is really abhorent to me right now. Perhaps it will pass. I may need a new career and education might be required.
> > > I brood about the future a lot. Anyway, I'm not really depressed right now (there's no question in my mind that the desipramine is working), just feeling anergic and having some trouble concentrating. My general mood is very much improved.
I'm very happy for you. The Desipramine seems to be a lucky ticket for you. (although i know you research it before taking it). I hope the blood levels prove ok. The ECT next step sounds right to me--plus they have that monitor that you strap on that monitors your heart for 24 hours for irregularities.
> > > She doesn't accept the idea that it's a disease, and she loathes the thought of taking medications (for some reason that I'm not quite clear on -- she knows I take them, and she has a brother who takes them too).
There is a degree of acknowledgment about mental illness and our lack of control over the disease that comes from taking a drug--plus all the stigma associated with it. My SIL believes that people who are mentally ill are self indulgent and that they take drugs as "cosmetic mood brighteners". Acknowledging mental illness comes with a lot of baggage in this society.
>
> Hmm. Well, [trying atenolol] might be worth it if the autonomic activation causes you too much discomfort.I'll keep it in mind
> > > A shame spiral for me was a hole that I would fall in precipitously whenever my old shame injury got bumped up against in the normal day to day living. >
> Ahh, I can understand that. (Can I ask whence the scars? I don't think I've seen you mention that before.)3d degree burns over 1/3 of my body (thighs and upper abdomine) when I was 8.
> > > My dad's a professor (both my parents are) -- his field is philosophy and history of science. It's not light reading. < g >
Doesn't sound like it, but it does sound like it is right up my husband's alley. He loves this stuff.
> > > I was 15 or 16. It is awful because it is a breach of trust between a parent and child, but the abuse was pretty mild.
>
> Small comfort. Still, it's probably less damaging if it happened when you were older.Yes, and it was mild, I don't believe he ever touched me. It was all about his self-pleasuring really.
> You think so? Hmm. I don't know too much about dystonias, but that doesn't sound like any one that I've heard about.certainly not the familial dystonia, which is incapacitating. I don't know--I've just read a lot about "muscle" tension and cramps being associated with meds. I get muscle cramps depending on my meds also. My muscle strength (during workouts) varies remarkably depending on my meds.
>
> > > FWIW, the time that I was first diagnosed with depression (when I was 14), I was having very bad headaches. Prozac did away with them, so I have to credit it for that, at least.Some vascular relaxation thing or muscle relaxant type of action maybe.
> > > It isn't medication induced -- it's been a chronic thing (started in fall '95), and there is a mechanical problem that probably contributes to it (local steroid injection made it go away for about a week). Nardil did make it go away (so does buprenorphine, of course). Soma works sometimes, but it's not as reliable. It also waxes and wanes in intensity. There are probably multiple factors contributing. But anyway, the fact that centrally acting drugs sometimes alleviate pain doesn't necessarily mean that the pain is "psychogenic." I did track my back pain for a while but couldn't find any correlations other than that it went away completely when I was taking Nardil.
Interesting take on the issue. That the meds medicate a physiological problem. My chiropractor always said my back aches were mechanical in nature. But my experience seems to prove otherwise. I guess the chicken and the egg question (do the med alleviate the symptoms or cause them) becomes apparent when you are off meds entirely. I haven't really tried this (for obvious reasons)< g >
> > > Desoxyn, you mean? That's cool that your pdoc was willing to consider it. I think most of them shy away because of its reputation.
Yeah, I'm pretty high on him right now because of his ability to think outside the box--the fact that he let me do the 3 day wash out between MAOIs, that he was willing to try Moclobemide by writing rxs for a Canadian Pharmacy and the fact that he is willing to try meds fairly aggressively has me feeling pretty good about him right now.
> > > I took Cylert for a while in college. It was pretty helpful. Unfortunately it's been "black-boxed" -- the labelling contains a big, conspicuous warning at the top about potential hepatotoxicity -- so doctors have been less willing to prescribe it.
Yeah, I know. By the way, do you have Jensen's book--I find it really useful.
>
> [re your son]
> > He has a learning disability (dyslexia) and possibly undiagnosed ADD sort of stuff.
>
> I think that a lot of different childhood disorders all get lumped together as "ADD."True. Amen identifies 6 types of ADD, but I think some of these are not ADD truly.
> > I've thought of having him formally evaluated, but my therapist feels it's not necessary. (and, in truth, i would be soooo reluctant to medicate a teen in part because they don't have a sexual identity or knowledge so if a med affects their sexuality they will just assume that that is "who they are"
>
> May I offer a counterexample? I was 14 when I started taking Prozac, and while Prozac didn't cause me much difficulty, I most definitely did have a sexual identity by that age.
>
elizabeth, this is really very helpful to me to hear. also, i suppose there's the point of developing an identity and coping skills of someone who is depressed as opposed to healthy?
> > > My niece is 15 and was diagnosed OCD and put on Luvox. I think it was necessary for her to be medicated, but I do worry--especially about her sexuality given the side effects of SSRIs generally.
>
> Is she doing CBT too? That's supposedly very effective for OCD.No, she's not doing CBT. I've suggested it, but the logistics have been unmanagable because her mother (who had lost control over her completely) sent her to live with her father (who is more structured in his discipline approach) and to a smaller school (10 kids per class). She completely flunked out of 8th grade, 3 F's and 2 D's (in drill team and PE). So the problem had become an emergency.
Good luck on the Desipramine retest.Lorraine
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