![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 70 to 94 of 434. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 22:10:05
In reply to Re: I'll hold your hand if you'll hold mine » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on July 20, 2001, at 22:42:39
> By the way, I find valium much more potent and helpful for use as a prn than klonopin. If I'm really anxious, I can take 3 mg of klonopin and feel nothing. 5-10mg of valium always kicks in for me, but it does make me more tired than klonopin.
Klonopin is more potent: the effective dose of Klonopin is much lower. Valium may seem to work better because it works fast. Klonopin is better if you're taking something around-the-clock and not just as-needed, though.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 22:14:36
In reply to Re: I'll hold your hand if you'll hold mine » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on July 21, 2001, at 10:47:46
> I was just reading an article on anxiety that said that the MAOs are 60-85% effective with anxiety and, surprisingly, said that a their clinic at least, the preference was Parnate over Nardil.
That's a little odd. I think that Nardil is probably a more effective anxiolytic, but a lot of people can't deal with the side effects, so compliance can be expected to be better with Parnate. Parnate does work for anxiety too, though.
-elizabeth
Posted by Lorraine on July 21, 2001, at 23:27:48
In reply to Re: hand holding » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 22:01:39
> > > Do you know if it is specifically carb craving? I had that on Effexor, but I wasn't doing low carb at the time.
>
> For me it was cravings for sweets.Yeah, that's pretty much what it was for me on Effexor. But once I got on low carb, I found my craving for sweets pretty much went away. Of course, this was after I was off the Effexor anyway. So I am real curious whether low carb would stay the course of the cravings for sweets while on Effexor or Nardil. Something interesting though, at one time I was seeing an endocrinologist (who put me on Estrotest and Cytomel--T3). Anyway, he advocated Nardil and said that sometimes he put his overweight patients on it to help them get over there carb cravings. Isn't that odd?
> > > Have you had liver function tests recently?
I think so as part of a general physical--nothing out of range. Although I am going to see a preventative medicine doctor in August and am going to ask her about doing a more in depth test than the normal stuff. I think Great Smokies Diagnostic Laboratories does a more thorough test.
> > > Consider the possibility that you're just extra-sensitive to feelings in your body. A lot of people who have panic attacks are that way.It's alway possible, but it doesn't ring true at first blush.
> > > That's something. Although I've taken as much as 40 mg of Valium and it didn't do *anything*. (I take 2 mg of *Xanax*. < g >)
> >
> > I really can't imagine.
>
> What, taking 2 mg of Xanax?Ok, let me try to imagine it. What is the lowest dose of Xanax? Whatever it is, I took that once and once only, it made me almost drunk, I mean slurring my words and so forth. What I was really reacting to was the 40 mg of Valium. I think they'd have to call 911 if I got anywhere near that dose.
> > > But a lot of drugs that I take have immediate bad effects--so then I wonder, where's my placebo effect here?
>
> Perhaps you're experiencing placebo side effects? It does happen, especially if a person is nervous about taking medication or obsesses about side effects. The placebo effect doesn't always work in your favour.'I'd really hate to second guess myself that much. I feel lucky that I'm not too insecure this way though. I remember having doctors tell me that my endometriosis was "all in my head". Each month I would pass out with pain; once at a supermarket and an ambulance was called. Neither my pain nor my symptoms were in my head--the medical knowledge just hadn't caught up with the concept of endometriosis. Old hat now. I suppose the worst part about panic attacks (which I thankfully don't have) is that you have to learn to distrust what your body is telling you. But then have you ever had an emotion that just occurred without an approriate stimulus for it? (what woman hasn't < vbg >) I remember I used to have a rage waiting for an excuse to explode periodically. It was so odd to just watch it, know it was there and wait for the match to be lit that would ignite the inferno. Even when I knew there wasn't a reason for it--just some chemical coursing through my brain and having its way with me (like this depression come to think of it).
> > > Of course, it could easily be that with time you simply adjust to the side effects.
That happens sometimes and sometimes not. I had a rough 3 or 4 weeks when I first got on Effexor, but then I adjusted and went on to a different set of side effects. You know, it is awfully difficult to know when to pull the plug on a med. On the one hand, you want to give it time to work. One the other hand, you are literally watching the time that makes up your life slip through your fingers when you linger with an ineffective med. I have not been stabilized on a med for a year and a half. It just gets exhausting at some point.
> > >Many "physical" effects can be mediated by the CNS.Most, I would think. Yeah, I think the mind/brain stuff is a bit whacko. But what I mean is that ruminating thoughts of fear and such might require a different treatment.
> > >Anyway, the recommended dosing schedule when it's used to treat muscle spasm is 3-4 times a day.That's good to know. Do you would think that the jitters could have been a rebound anxiety response? I take my dose in the morning and started having trouble around 2pm.
elizabeth, once again, thank-you for your kind and generous counsel.
Lorraine
Posted by Lorraine on July 21, 2001, at 23:30:53
In reply to Re: jitters on Valium? » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 22:07:27
[re drug interaction]
> I don't think that's it. Although did I read that you're taking Nardil, selegiline, and Adderall at the same time???Mercy, no! It's selegiline, adderall, neurontin and valium.
>
> > I'm sure I'm beginning to sound a bit daft, but I assure you I'm not--just on a very rocky boat at the moment.
>
> You sound fine to me, especially given how bad your anxiety must be.
That's quite kind of you.Lorraine
Posted by Lorraine on July 21, 2001, at 23:35:57
In reply to Nardil vs. Parnate » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 22:14:36
> > I was just reading an article on anxiety that said that the MAOs are 60-85% effective with anxiety and, surprisingly, said that a their clinic at least, the preference was Parnate over Nardil.
>
> > > That's a little odd. I think that Nardil is probably a more effective anxiolytic, but a lot of people can't deal with the side effects, so compliance can be expected to be better with Parnate. Parnate does work for anxiety too, though.Certainly Nardil has the reputation of being more effective as an anxiolytic. The place that said this (www.anxietynetwork.com/pdmed.html) was actually addressing panic attacks. I don't know if that makes a difference though.
Lorraine
Posted by Lorraine on July 21, 2001, at 23:42:03
In reply to Nardil vs. Parnate » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 22:14:36
Shelli: I found two articles by stephen stahl that may interest you: Sex Therapy in Psychiatric Treatment Has a New Partner: Reproductive Hormones (www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/brainstorm/br5811.htm) and Estrogen Makes the Brain a Sex Organ (www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/brainstorm/br5810). I found them pretty interesting. He says he thinks that women are at particular risk of developing mental illness during times of great hormonal change, like puberty, post-partum and perimenopause.
Posted by shelliR on July 22, 2001, at 0:45:54
In reply to Re: hand holding and estrogen shelli, posted by Lorraine on July 21, 2001, at 23:42:03
> Shelli: I found two articles by stephen stahl that may interest you: Sex Therapy in Psychiatric Treatment Has a New Partner: Reproductive Hormones (www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/brainstorm/br5811.htm) and Estrogen Makes the Brain a Sex Organ (www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/brainstorm/br5810). I found them pretty interesting. He says he thinks that women are at particular risk of developing mental illness during times of great hormonal change, like puberty, post-partum and perimenopause.
Lorraine, it's really late (east coast time) and I've just finished responding to a bunch of posts on the social-babble board , but thanks so much. I'll take a look at them tomorrow and try to post back.
Sweet dreams zzzzzzzzzzzzz, Shelli
Posted by MB on July 22, 2001, at 1:41:35
In reply to Re: I'll hold your hand elizabeth shelli, posted by Lorraine on July 20, 2001, at 15:24:31
> I really don't understand this. I feel like I am going to panic on the Valium. I've been flying off the handle--very aggitated, feel like I'm crawling out of my skin. Does that make any sense at all?
I got akathisia when I was on Librium and Xanax (not at the same time). I thought it was strange, but it happened. I didn't feel panicky, but I did feel agitated...well, "restless" lets say, like I had to keep wiggling my legs.
Posted by shelliR on July 22, 2001, at 13:02:16
In reply to Re: I'll hold your hand if you'll hold mine » shelliR, posted by Lorraine on July 21, 2001, at 10:47:46
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> I was just reading an article on anxiety that said that the MAOs are 60-85% effective with anxiety and, surprisingly, said that a their clinic at least, the preference was Parnate over Nardil. www.anxietynetwork.com/pdmed.html This is encouraging to me because the sexual dysfunction and weight gain has me shying away from Nardil from now. It's great that you did not have these side effects.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >This is the statement from the article sited, concerning nardil vs. parnate:
"We have found that, in general, Parnate, as opposed to Nardil, is more effective with many of the anxiety disorders, provided there are no other anxiety or mental health care complications. "
That's a bit confusing to me. I think what they are saying is that they have found that parnate is more effective for agoraphobia /panic disorder, I don't think they are saying one way or the other about generalized anxiety, which I assume they mean by "other anxiety". At least that's my take, but I could be misunderstanding what they meant.
I don't remember whether you have panic. (?) In any case, I think starting with parnate is a reasonable choice, and if it turns out ineffective, there is only a ten day waiting period to then try nardil.
Thanks for the pointing me to the Stahl articles on estrogen. When I was still seeing my last pdoc, she steered me away from trying birth control pills for premenstral symptoms, both physical and psychological. In retrospect, because of my age, and the definite worsening of my depression in a fairly stable period of my life, I think it was negligent to not explore the hormonal aspect of my depression. We talked about it, but she wanted to approach the depression in other ways. By the end of our relationship, she was threatening me to drop me as a patient because of my use of vicidin and she was heavily pushing any and all of the atypical APs.
Luckily, she didn't have the same reluctance that other doctors do about my use of valium or klonopin. However, both her objection to my use of vicidin and her refusal to accept my stance against a large weight gain still annoy me. I tried dozens of drugs for the depression, none worked, and a very small bit of vicidin worked and I did not increase it for three years. I felt that she could afford to be smug and righteous about my use of oxycodone and my refusal to take meds causing me large weight gains, because it was not her life that was passing by, and not her body that was changing. My belief is that if doctors have panic attacks they quickly change their mind about benzos , and if they were as depressed as I was and had tried as many drugs unsuccessfully, they would be more willing to try opiates, especially buprenorphine. She wouldn't even read the literature on it (I brought in copies and she wouldn't even take them). That remains beyond my comprehension. Ah, yes, if the tables were turned. . . . Anyway, enough of my rant.
How long to you have to wait to try parnate? I'm really doing pretty well, so I think unless I start to spiral down, I may put off trying another MAOI and see what the estrogen does. I'll let you test parnate before I decide < g >. I think you have a lot of reason to be very optimistic about MAOIs. I think the nardil would still be working for me if I had not entered into my perimenapausal years.
Thanks again for the info on estrogen; I'm getting a little more psyched now, after reading those.
How's was the valium yesterday?
Take care,
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on July 22, 2001, at 14:01:37
In reply to Re: I'll hold your hand if you'll hold mine » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on July 19, 2001, at 11:59:19
> Is Sheppard Pratt affiliated with Johns Hopkins, by any chance? It sounds like a teaching hospital. >No, JH has its own hospital and psych units.
> > As far as the TCAs working, I never got past the first day on two different ones.
> Which two? >have no clue, it was so long ago.
> > > I was there for a month (which is what my insurance covered), but there were people in there up to a year.
> I don't know about Maryland, but Medicaid in Massachusetts will cover a lot, probably more than most private insurance. I've encountered people who had MassHealth and spent a year or more in the hospital.
> > I was not really part of that era, and never part of the federal government at all.
> What era was that? (chronologically, I mean)< < <Probably up through the 70s.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>That's pretty funny. I didn't know anything about Roseanne being in "the bin." If what you heard is true, I agree that she's probably not experiencing dissociation. MPD is a sort of fad diagnosis in some hospitals (just as borderline personality is at McLean), and some people who crave attention or are very suggestible probably pretend to have it, or are convinced by their therapists that they actually do have it. I think it's probably a real condition, but not nearly as common as some people seem to think.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There is no question that it is a real condition; I've spent a lot of time with multiples in the hospital since I go on the dissociative disorders unit (I have a DDNOS diagnosis). My last roommate had suffered torture by her father and in a prison in Saudi Arabia (because she told her father she *might* be gay at age 17 and he had her incarcerated ) and she had three very strong adult personalities that I related to at different times. They were all pretty down to earth, just had different ideas of life and had played different roles in her development. The personality that was the one who was conscious during the torture, was angry that my roommate didn't just get on with her life. But this girl had only learned about these inside personalities weeks before and it is an overwhelming and scary experience when someone first realizes that horrible things have happened to them that they have no knowledge of, and that there are different personalities inside which account for things that they haven't understood. e.g., when they suddenly find themselves in a different city and have no clue why. The book I like the most on DID (MPD) is The Magic Daughter. It is the well written and not histrionic at all. Mostly what I see in the hospital are people with a central personality and short periods of breakthroughs of other personalities that I meet in a more fleeting way. I think at Sheppard Pratt they tend to disagnosis most people with dissociative disorders as multiple. Lowenstein (head pdoc there) has much looser criteria for a DID diagnosis than Putnam (at NIMH) and the latest DSM is somewhat ambiguous.
I think that overall (Sheppard Pratt and other like institutions, withstanding), DID is actually under diagnosed in the population.
Have you gotten your serum levels tested yet. You think that you are taking more desiprimine than you are absorbing?We are having pretty decent weather here, for July in the swamp. Hope you are also.
Shelli
Posted by Lorraine on July 22, 2001, at 14:37:27
In reply to Re: I'll hold your hand if you'll hold mine » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on July 22, 2001, at 13:02:16
> > > I don't remember whether you have panic. (?) In any case, I think starting with parnate is a reasonable choice, and if it turns out ineffective, there is only a ten day waiting period to then try nardil.
I hyperventilate. I have read the diagnostic criterian for GAD and for Panic. I don't fall in the Panic column, because my condition is constant rather than discrete episode (and I don't think they reach the level of impending doom, fear of death etc) nor GAD, which requires "Excessive anxiety and worry (apprehensive expectation), occuring more days than not for at least 6 months, about a number of events or activities (such as work or school performance)." I'm not worried about anything. It's like dysautonomia. Just a system glich that causes me to hyperventilate and feel some of those shivers that run from your neck to your stomach when you feel extreme stess. I think it's more like panic than anxiety but I don't really fall in either category. (by the way, I think these categories are bunk anyway because they are not pinned to physiology.)
> Thanks for the pointing me to the Stahl articles on estrogen. When I was still seeing my last pdoc, she steered me away from trying birth control pills for premenstral symptoms, both physical and psychological. In retrospect, because of my age, and the definite worsening of my depression in a fairly stable period of my life, I think it was negligent to not explore the hormonal aspect of my depression.Well, I pleaded with my ob/gyn to explore perimenopause issues but he refused saying I was "not" perimenopausal--I was too young (42) despite the fact that I was having hot flashes and missing periods for 4-5 months at a go. It still steams my glasses.
> > > Luckily, she didn't have the same reluctance that other doctors do about my use of valium or klonopin. However, both her objection to my use of vicidin and her refusal to accept my stance against a large weight gain still annoy me. I tried dozens of drugs for the depression, none worked, and a very small bit of vicidin worked and I did not increase it for three years.I think that doctors worry about drugs of posible abuse. I think it is a malpractice concern. But I also believe that the correct way to look at addiction is that it is a physical condition caused by some abnormality in the brain. So, there are a lot of drugs that could help people with mental illnesses and people with addiction that aren't used because of the stigma associated with these drugs. It's all nonsense in my book. If addiction concern is an issue, then monitor that possibility, don't refuse to treat the patient according to their needs.
> >I felt that she could afford to be smug and righteous about my use of oxycodone and my refusal to take meds causing me large weight gains, because it was not her life that was passing by, and not her body that was changing.
This stuff really drives me nuts. I understand your anger completely.
> > > My belief is that if doctors have panic attacks they quickly change their mind about benzos , and if they were as depressed as I was and had tried as many drugs unsuccessfully, they would be more willing to try opiates, especially buprenorphine.
Some doctors don't have a clue. Walk a mile in my shoe would really help some of them. I saw a woman on Booknotes last night who had written a book on political correctness and medicine. She said she decided to go into psychiatry after she had an infection that required treatment with a drug that induced depression in her. She was able to come out of the depression by weaning off the drug, but she felt compelled to go into the field because of how devastating her time limited depression was. This might be part of training for the job, if we were sure it could be reversed.
> > >She wouldn't even read the literature on it (I brought in copies and she wouldn't even take them).
Of course not, education wasn't an option in her book. She had a frame of mind that was immovable.
> > > How long to you have to wait to try parnate? I'm really doing pretty well, so I think unless I start to spiral down, I may put off trying another MAOI and see what the estrogen does.I'm going to set an appointment next week, assuming the Valium doesn't do the trick.
> > >I'll let you test parnate before I decide < g
Now, you first. Really, I insist.
> > > I think you have a lot of reason to be very optimistic about MAOIs. I think the nardil would still be working for me if I had not entered into my perimenapausal years.I wonder if estrogen and Nardil might be your holy grail.
> How's was the valium yesterday?OK, not so much aggravation, although I am still weepy and my breathing is not completely under control. I could up the dose, but I don't like sedation.
Good to hear from you, Shelli
Posted by Elizabeth on July 22, 2001, at 14:54:36
In reply to Re: hand holding » Elizabeth, posted by Lorraine on July 21, 2001, at 23:27:48
> Yeah, that's pretty much what it was for me on Effexor. But once I got on low carb, I found my craving for sweets pretty much went away.
I think a low-carb diet might help with Nardil. But that would be very difficult for me, for a variety of reasons (plus Nardil never worked for me in the long term).
> Anyway, he advocated Nardil and said that sometimes he put his overweight patients on it to help them get over there carb cravings. Isn't that odd?
Yes. I have no idea why that might work. I went from being a little bit underweight to very overweight for my size. I'd never had problems with my weight being too high before I took Nardil.
> > > > Have you had liver function tests recently?
>
> I think so as part of a general physical--nothing out of range.I don't know if that would be part of a general physical (it's been so long since I've had one < g >).
> Although I am going to see a preventative medicine doctor in August and am going to ask her about doing a more in depth test than the normal stuff.
What's a preventative medicine doctor? I mean, I've heard of preventative medicine, but I didn't know it was a recognised subspecialty.
> > > > Consider the possibility that you're just extra-sensitive to feelings in your body. A lot of people who have panic attacks are that way.
>
> It's alway possible, but it doesn't ring true at first blush.It may not be the case. Just keep in mind that it *could* be. Sometimes our intuition is mistaken.
> > > I really can't imagine.
> >
> > What, taking 2 mg of Xanax?
>
> Ok, let me try to imagine it. What is the lowest dose of Xanax?The lowest strength pill is 0.25 mg.
> Whatever it is, I took that once and once only, it made me almost drunk, I mean slurring my words and so forth.
I only take 2 mg for panic attacks (infrequently, although I need more when I'm switching ADs). It's not sedating at all; it just cuts through the anxiety.
> What I was really reacting to was the 40 mg of Valium. I think they'd have to call 911 if I got anywhere near that dose.
I have a high intrinsic tolerance. Benzos at usual doses don't do much to me, and it's not due to acquired tolerance -- for a long time I thought that benzos were useless because the usual doses just didn't have any noticeable effect.
> I remember having doctors tell me that my endometriosis was "all in my head".
I hate that! I mean, in a situation like that, I'd call it malpractise, not just unprofessionalism (and perhaps more than a little bit of sexism).
Placebo side effects are quite possible, though. Consider this: in clinical trials, the rate of occurrence of various "side effects" is usually lower in the placebo group, but most often it's more than zero.
> I suppose the worst part about panic attacks (which I thankfully don't have) is that you have to learn to distrust what your body is telling you.
Not so much for me. Just figuring out that I was having panic attacks made it a lot easier to deal with them. The panic became a problem that I could manage, not a scary and mysterious thing.
> But then have you ever had an emotion that just occurred without an approriate stimulus for it? (what woman hasn't < vbg >)
I'm nowhere near menopause, and I don't get PMS, just cramps. I have spontaneous depressions -- for the most part, my depression is not related to stressful events or circumstances (or the change of seasons or my menstrual cycle). I think that people who haven't been depressed have trouble relating to that, because the only thing they have to compare it to is sadness as a normal response to events.
> Yeah, I think the mind/brain stuff is a bit whacko. But what I mean is that ruminating thoughts of fear and such might require a different treatment.
"Somatic symptoms" is a non-dualistic term for the "physical" symptoms such as palpitations, sweating, hyperventilating, etc.
> Do you would think that the jitters could have been a rebound anxiety response?
Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at.
> I take my dose in the morning and started having trouble around 2pm.
Yup! You just need to take it more regularly.
About Nardil vs. Parnate:
> Certainly Nardil has the reputation of being more effective as an anxiolytic. The place that said this (www.anxietynetwork.com/pdmed.html) was actually addressing panic attacks. I don't know if that makes a difference though.It does. And my experience has been that Parnate is effective in preventing panic attacks, although I wouldn't say it's *more* effective than Nardil.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on July 22, 2001, at 15:00:31
In reply to Re: I'll hold your hand if you'll hold mine » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on July 22, 2001, at 13:02:16
> My belief is that if doctors have panic attacks they quickly change their mind about benzos, and if they were as depressed as I was and had tried as many drugs unsuccessfully, they would be more willing to try opiates, especially buprenorphine.
I think that benzophobic doctors should be required to take inverse benzodiazepine agonists, and opiophobic doctors should be made dependent on morphine and then forced into naloxone-precipitated withdrawal. And if they think weight gain is no big deal, they should have no problem taking Clozaril for a few years!
> She wouldn't even read the literature on it (I brought in copies and she wouldn't even take them). That remains beyond my comprehension.
It's called "intellectual laziness."
-elizabeth
Posted by Lorraine on July 23, 2001, at 10:40:03
In reply to Re: hand holding » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on July 22, 2001, at 14:54:36
> > > > > Have you had liver function tests recently?
> >
> > I think so as part of a general physical--nothing out of range.
>
> I don't know if that would be part of a general physical (it's been so long since I've had one < g >).tsk. tsk!
> > > What's a preventative medicine doctor? I mean, I've heard of preventative medicine, but I didn't know it was a recognised subspecialty.I don't know if it is a recognised subspecialty. It represents an approach where the doctor will explore a possible functional deficiency that hasn't yet risen to the level of pathology. When you have a disease of unknown etiology (like depression or chronic fatigue syndrome or fibromylagia), this type of doctor will look at the various functional system that might be involved with the disorder to ascertain and shore up problem areas. For instance, in depression the rate of osteoporosis is significantly higher than it is in the normal population. You can have a bone scan done periodically, but by the time it detects loss of bone mass, the amount lost is high. A functional approach would be to try to measure calcium loss by looking at urine, saliva and hair sample analysis to nip it in the bud before it is detectable by bone scan. Just an example. I want this person to look at my liver function, adrenal function, thyroid function, and estrogen/progesteron levels, among other things. It took me a year to find a doctor in this area that I was confident in (because you do have to watch out for quacks). This one came highly recommended by two people I know and respect. In addition, the doctor had either cfs or fms about 5 years ago, retired from practice for a couple of years and when she got her own body back on track, reestablished her practice--all of which makes me feel good about going to see her. She has a waiting list, but I go in next month.
> > > It may not be the case. Just keep in mind that it *could* be. Sometimes our intuition is mistaken.
I'm open to possibilities. Discounting my physical feelings is just not something that I would do casually. When I was a child, a lot of my physical and emotional reality was discounted. Learning not to discount my feelings has taken time.
> > > I have a high intrinsic tolerance. Benzos at usual doses don't do much to me, and it's not due to acquired tolerance
That was my assumption. Are you then, a fast metabolizer?
> > I remember having doctors tell me that my endometriosis was "all in my head".
>
> I hate that! I mean, in a situation like that, I'd call it malpractise, not just unprofessionalism (and perhaps more than a little bit of sexism).It gets worse. I once went in for surgery--plastic surgery to remove some burn scar tissue--and the doctors gave me an experimental anethetic that didn't really knock you out but was supposed to make you forget what had happened in the surgery. They then gave me a local for pain. When they started to make the incision, I told them I could feel it. They insisted that I could not, maybe I could feel the pressure only, they said. I was strapped down on the operating table and they proceeded. It wasn't until I absolutely started freaking out, that they relented and gave me a general.
> > > Placebo side effects are quite possible, though. Consider this: in clinical trials, the rate of occurrence of various "side effects" is usually lower in the placebo group, but most often it's more than zero.Yes, but if you keep a mood diary and track meds and supplements and so forth on a day-to-day basis you have different effects that happen. The difference is that when you are in a trial you "attribute" these effects to something when they may actually just be random actual occurences that are not attributable to the med. It's not that the effects aren't real.
> > > "Somatic symptoms" is a non-dualistic term for the "physical" symptoms such as palpitations, sweating, hyperventilating, etc.This is good to know. You increase my vocabulary daily < vbg >
> > > Do you would think that the jitters could have been a rebound anxiety response?
>
> Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at.
>
> > I take my dose in the morning and started having trouble around 2pm.
>
> Yup! You just need to take it more regularly.I'll try this. Thanx.
> > >. And my experience has been that Parnate is effective in preventing panic attacks, although I wouldn't say it's *more* effective than Nardil.It's not clear "what" I have. I don't fall in either GAD or panic attack diagnostic categories.
Do take care of yourself. How the despramine going?
Lorraine
Posted by Elizabeth on July 23, 2001, at 16:08:30
In reply to Re: hand holding, posted by Lorraine on July 23, 2001, at 10:40:03
> I don't know if it is a recognised subspecialty.
Ahh, okay. I only knew of the expression as a sort of approach, as you described.
> I'm open to possibilities. Discounting my physical feelings is just not something that I would do casually. When I was a child, a lot of my physical and emotional reality was discounted. Learning not to discount my feelings has taken time.
I understand; I've met a number of people who were treated the same way in childhood.
> > > > I have a high intrinsic tolerance. Benzos at usual doses don't do much to me, and it's not due to acquired tolerance
>
> That was my assumption. Are you then, a fast metabolizer?Not that I know of. (The primary enzyme involved in metabolism of Xanax is cytochrome p450 3a4, incidentally. It's inhibited by some ADs, such as Serzone and Luvox, as well as various other types of drugs. 3a4 deficiency isn't as common as 2d6 deficiency, I believe.)
> It gets worse. I once went in for surgery--plastic surgery to remove some burn scar tissue--and the doctors gave me an experimental anethetic that didn't really knock you out but was supposed to make you forget what had happened in the surgery.
Was it ketamine, by any chance?
> They then gave me a local for pain. When they started to make the incision, I told them I could feel it. They insisted that I could not, maybe I could feel the pressure only, they said. I was strapped down on the operating table and they proceeded. It wasn't until I absolutely started freaking out, that they relented and gave me a general.
Jeez. Bastards. If I were mistreated to that extent, I'd consider finding a lawyer. Operating on someone who's withdrawn her consent is a big no-no.
> Yes, but if you keep a mood diary and track meds and supplements and so forth on a day-to-day basis you have different effects that happen. The difference is that when you are in a trial you "attribute" these effects to something when they may actually just be random actual occurences that are not attributable to the med. It's not that the effects aren't real.
I think that misattribution is one source of "placebo side effects." I don't think that it accounts for all of them, though.
> > Yup! You just need to take it more regularly.
>
> I'll try this. Thanx.Get permission from your doctor (who really ought to know that Valium doesn't last a whole day).
> It's not clear "what" I have. I don't fall in either GAD or panic attack diagnostic categories.
So you said. It sounds like constant, low-level panic. I've met a couple other people who had the same experience. (For me, Parnate withdrawal was like that.) I think the most prudent thing to do would be to treat it like panic, GAD, or perhaps PTSD.
> Do take care of yourself. How the despramine going?
Pretty well. I started taking 250 mg yesterday and will be bumping it up to 300 sometime later this week. My pdoc is going on vacation for two weeks in August (don't they all do that?), and I'd like to be sure that I will be able to function reasonably well while he's gone.
-elizabeth
Posted by shelliR on July 23, 2001, at 19:16:11
In reply to Re: I'll hold your hand if you'll hold mine » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on July 22, 2001, at 15:00:31
Hi Elizabeth> > She wouldn't even read the literature on it (I brought in copies and she wouldn't even take them). That remains beyond my comprehension.
>
> It's called "intellectual laziness."Actually, I think it has more to do with close-mindedness re opitates. She was not usually that way; in fact on somethings, she was eager to see what was written.
Hi Elizabeth
You wrote to Lorraine that the despamine was going pretty well.
What is your dosage goal ? Does doing "pretty well" mean you are feeling some benefit, or tolerating side effects? BTW, what are the side effects? And do you feel anything in relation to your depression yet?
I started estrogen today and I am euphoric ( < g >, just felt like using the word). No, but actually I have really bad PMS and now I wonder if I should have waited until I got my period to start the estrogen. Like I don't want to throw things off so the PMS lasts longer than usual. Oh well, too late.
BTW, there's a message to you from me yesterday, re Shappard Pratt, MPD, etc.later, Shelli
Posted by Lorraine on July 23, 2001, at 21:39:13
In reply to Re: hand holding » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on July 23, 2001, at 16:08:30
> > > It gets worse. I once went in for surgery--plastic surgery to remove some burn scar tissue--and the doctors gave me an experimental anethetic that didn't really knock you out but was supposed to make you forget what had happened in the surgery.
>
> Was it ketamine, by any chance?I don't remember. It was in 1977 approximately, a long time ago. You know, a lot of brash insensitive intern types--which at teaching hospitals sometimes you get.
> > > They then gave me a local for pain. When they started to make the incision, I told them I could feel it. They insisted that I could not, maybe I could feel the pressure only, they said. I was strapped down on the operating table and they proceeded. It wasn't until I absolutely started freaking out, that they relented and gave me a general.
>
> Jeez. Bastards. If I were mistreated to that extent, I'd consider finding a lawyer. Operating on someone who's withdrawn her consent is a big no-no.It's interesting. I was outraged, but noone I related the story to at the time was. My mother and boyfriend acted like this was all normal and at the time my sense of reality was borrowed from others so I figured the problem was my perception.
> > > I think that misattribution is one source of "placebo side effects." I don't think that it accounts for all of them, though.No, not all of them. But the way people commonly use the concept of placebo it sounds like just having someone give you a sugar pills makes things happen. It makes people's reactions appear more strange than they are. Now in a controlled experiment you still care about the random associations that are made because theoretically those same random associations may occur in the treatment group.
> > > Get permission from your doctor (who really ought to know that Valium doesn't last a whole day).You sound like you would be pretty outraged at this lapse in your doctor. Would you? I find they are have failings. When I was on Wellbutrin and experiencing visual trails (like on LSD), I asked my pdoc if it was a side effect. She swore it wasn't and suggested perhaps it was the ginko that I was taking or small strokes (TIAs). Then she suggested I see an eye doctor. I did. The eye doctor found nothing wrong, then looked up Wellbutrin in the PDR and noted that visual trails were indeed a known side effect of Wellbutrin.
> > > It's not clear "what" I have. I don't fall in either GAD or panic attack diagnostic categories.
>
> > > So you said. It sounds like constant, low-level panic.I think this assessment is dead one. Pat yourself on the back please< vbg >
> > >I've met a couple other people who had the same experience. (For me, Parnate withdrawal was like that.) I think the most prudent thing to do would be to treat it like panic, GAD, or perhaps PTSD.
Yes, but the treatment seems to be different for these three conditions. My plan is to treat it like panic and assume the drugs that are effective with panic (e.g. Parnate) will be helpful.
> > >I started taking 250 mg yesterday and will be bumping it up to 300 sometime later this week. My pdoc is going on vacation for two weeks in August (don't they all do that?), and I'd like to be sure that I will be able to function reasonably well while he's gone.Well, can you get an authorization from him to increase your dosage at regular increments until you reach his "max"? It sure would help while he is gone. Are you getting any mood support from the Desipramine currently?
By the way, Stephan Stahl in an article on different meds noted that desipramine was not effective against panic--which also helps steer me towards Parnate. What type of a washout period would you expect me to have going from selegiline to Parnate? Can it be done in less than a week if you monitor your blood pressure? My selegiline is 5 mg a day.Nice chatting with you, elizabeth, as always
Lorraine
Posted by lawrence s. on July 24, 2001, at 1:29:58
In reply to Nardil vs. Parnate » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on July 21, 2001, at 22:14:36
> > I was just reading an article on anxiety that said that the MAOs are 60-85% effective with anxiety and, surprisingly, said that a their clinic at least, the preference was Parnate over Nardil.
>
> That's a little odd. I think that Nardil is probably a more effective anxiolytic, but a lot of people can't deal with the side effects, so compliance can be expected to be better with Parnate. Parnate does work for anxiety too, though.
>
> -elizabeth
>
> > >Nardil for me was a social lubricant/personality amplifier. A miricale drug for my S.P. I Had the best results with 90mg. a day.
Parnate seemed better geared for deppresion. Also seemed to react to amines much more than Nardil. Hope this helps.
>Lawrence S.
Posted by Lorraine on July 24, 2001, at 9:35:51
In reply to Re: Nardil vs. Parnate, posted by lawrence s. on July 24, 2001, at 1:29:58
> > > >Nardil for me was a social lubricant/personality amplifier. A miricale drug for my S.P. I Had the best results with 90mg. a day.
> Parnate seemed better geared for deppresion. Also seemed to react to amines much more than Nardil. Hope this helps.Lawrence: Thank you for your response. What do you mean by "seemed to react to amines much more than Nardil"? There seem to be a lot of Nardil fans out there and not as many Parnate fans. The difficulty with Nardil is the weight gain and sexual dysfunction side effects that are prevalent. Were these a problem for you?
> >Lawrence S.
Posted by lawrence s. on July 25, 2001, at 1:15:41
In reply to Re: Nardil vs. Parnate » lawrence s., posted by Lorraine on July 24, 2001, at 9:35:51
> > > > >Nardil for me was a social lubricant/personality amplifier. A miricale drug for my S.P. I Had the best results with 90mg. a day.
> > Parnate seemed better geared for deppresion. Also seemed to react to amines much more than Nardil. Hope this helps.
>
> Lawrence: Thank you for your response. What do you mean by "seemed to react to amines much more than Nardil"? There seem to be a lot of Nardil fans out there and not as many Parnate fans. The difficulty with Nardil is the weight gain and sexual dysfunction side effects that are prevalent. Were these a problem for you?
>
> > >When I was on Parnate I noticed my blood pressure increasing while eating certain foods that I used to eat all the time on Nardil. For instance: chocolate, caffeine, bacon to name a few. Maybe because of Parnate being more stimulating it caused the problem.
Sex was a problem for me on Nardil, but not impossible. Just thought Iwas going to have a heart attack before ejaculation. I also gained about 30lbs while on it. It was amazing the amount of sweets I could eat!
>LARRY
> > >Lawrence S.
Posted by Lorraine on July 25, 2001, at 10:32:46
In reply to Re: Handholding Elizabeth, posted by Lorraine on July 25, 2001, at 10:26:21
> elizabeth: Wanted you to know that you missed a message from me--the last one on 7/15. In case it was an oversight, here's the link. http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010720/msgs/71555.html
Sorry, meant 7/23
Posted by Lorraine on July 26, 2001, at 10:00:19
In reply to Re: Handholding Elizabeth, posted by Lorraine on July 25, 2001, at 10:32:46
Shelli:
Have you heard from Elizabeth? I'm concerned. I haven't seen her posting lately and I know her doctor was going out of town and she's new to desipramine. Just wondered if you had heard anything from her.
How are you doing with your meds? I'm in to see my pdoc today. Probably discuss Parnate, Nardil and so forth. You were thinking about going back on Nardil as I recall. Any movement there?
> > elizabeth: Wanted you to know that you missed a message from me--the last one on 7/15. In case it was an oversight, here's the link. http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010720/msgs/71555.html
>
> Sorry, meant 7/23
Posted by shelliR on July 26, 2001, at 15:44:31
In reply to Re: Handholding Shelli, posted by Lorraine on July 26, 2001, at 10:00:19
Hi Lorraine.
> > > > > Have you heard from Elizabeth? I'm concerned. I haven't seen her posting lately and I know her doctor was going out of town and she's new to desipramine. Just wondered if you had heard anything from her.< < < < < < <I don't think you need to worry about Elizabeth. I looked back and her pdoc is not leaving unti August. Maybe she just went away for a few days.
> > > > >How are you doing with your meds? I'm in to see my pdoc today. Probably discuss Parnate, Nardil and so forth. You were thinking about going back on Nardil as I recall. Any movement there?< < < < < < < <
I'm doing well with the meds, although I have felt physically sick, migraines etc. all week; finally today I just started my period, so my body hopefully will demand less of my attention. The only thing about the oxycontin is that I am still on the original dose and the feeling of a little bit of high has never left. It's not a big problem, just better to decide when I want to get high, not start out my day that way.My doctor sort of has this attitude that you mix a bunch of stuff together and if it works there's no need to dissect it. I sort of disagree because I would rather put less than more into my body. (BTW, I didn't have this attitude when I was feeling suicidally depressed; I started segeligine and oxycontin at the same time.) But now I think I'll do the oxycontin and estradiol, add natural progesterone and see what happens. I've just done the estradiol for a couple of days now. I had two pretty bad migraines this week and I couldn't have taken the pill I took for them (forget the name, dissolves under the tongue) if I was on an MAOI.
Anyway, I'm feeling stable enough to wait, if a bit drugged. Maybe the estradiol will be my miracle and I could drop the oxy. Probably not though, since I have a long history of depression. But maybe estradiol and nardil, oxy prn. I'll see.
Has your pdoc been encouraging you to take nardil over parnate or vice-versa. Let me know what he said and which you've choosen.
Shelli
Posted by Lorraine on July 26, 2001, at 18:45:59
In reply to Re: Handholding Shelli » Lorraine, posted by shelliR on July 26, 2001, at 15:44:31
> > > I don't think you need to worry about Elizabeth. I looked back and her pdoc is not leaving unti August. Maybe she just went away for a few days.
I'm sure you're right. I don't think I so much worry about her ability to handle things (because she really seems to be an old hand at this). I suppose I wish that I could be more helpful to her. She does a ton of giving on this board. I'd like to be able to reciprocate on some meaningful level.
By the way, looking back over some old posts, I see that you have been very helpful in responding to my posts. I don't know how to describe it, but when I first went on psychobabble--all the names were a blur. It is only recently that the names have separated for me and I've come to identify posts with names. Anyway, I want to thank you for all the support you have given me in the past when I didn't know who you were. It really did help.
(Lord, can you see where I am in this depression? Slipping down--I become all soppy even though the sentiment is true. I tear up with gratitude--which I guess is one of the good things--that I can still feel "touched".)
> > > I'm doing well with the meds, although I have felt physically sick, migraines etc. all week;I did tell you that they now believe that migraine are associated with seizure like activity in the brain and that intestinal migrains also exist? I had migraines for years. They left when I went through menopause, and, like yours, were hormonally related. I'm now on unopposed estrogen and no migraines so my hunch is that they are related to progesterin changes. I have also read (and my pdoc confirmed to me today) that panic attacks can be associated with estrogen dominance--which given my unopposed estrogen is certainly my situation. So when I go see my functional med doctor at the end of this month a full hormone level panel is in order. Also, apparently panic attacks can be associated with hypothyroidism. Turns out I quit taking T3 augmentation around the time the panic attacks started--so who knows. New avenues to explore.
> > >Finally today I just started my period, so my body hopefully will demand less of my attention.
Well, I know what you mean about "finally"--it's like waiting for the other shoe to drop, isn't it and for me at least was such a physical feeling-a prenumbra?
> > > The only thing about the oxycontin is that I am still on the original dose and the feeling of a little bit of high has never left. It's not a big problem, just better to decide when I want to get high, not start out my day that way.
The feeling of being "high" is very unsettling to me as well. You've been on this med long enough that you would think that side effect would have evaporated if that's what its intent was. That's unfortunate.
> > > My doctor sort of has this attitude that you mix a bunch of stuff together and if it works there's no need to dissect it.
The lack of a scientific basis makes me uneasy too. Though my hunch is that nobody really knows what they are doing with these meds--it's all trial and error with a bit of hunch thrown into it. (elizabeth would disagree I think.) But I have this fantasy that one day I'll walk into someone's office and they will say "let's see here--there's a pattern of dopamine responsiveness and it appears to be D2 rather than D3---let's try such and such. It just fits the bill."
> > >I sort of disagree because I would rather put less than more into my body. (BTW, I didn't have this attitude when I was feeling suicidally depressed; I started segeligine and oxycontin at the same time.)
Yeah, but, don't you think that first you manage the depression, then you worry about simplifying?
> > >But now I think I'll do the oxycontin and estradiol, add natural progesterone and see what happens.
You know they say to do the progesterone on a constant basis as opposed to following the menstrual cycle when you have depression?
> > >I've just done the estradiol for a couple of days now. I had two pretty bad migraines this week and I couldn't have taken the pill I took for them (forget the name, dissolves under the tongue) if I was on an MAOI.
That's unfortunate that you can't take this pill when you are on an MAO. An there is no substitute? (There was never anything that I could take that helped at all.)
> > > Anyway, I'm feeling stable enough to wait, if a bit drugged. Maybe the estradiol will be my miracle and I could drop the oxy.Wouldn't that be lovely? Let's hope.
> > >Probably not though, since I have a long history of depression. But maybe estradiol and nardil, oxy prn. I'll see.
Let me know.
> > > Has your pdoc been encouraging you to take nardil over parnate or vice-versa. Let me know what he said and which you've choosen.Well, we decided to go with parnate. My guy is an odd duck--he bases everything pretty much on your QEEG. So when I say, Nardil is associated with weight gain and sexual dysfunction, he says "I've never had anyone with your QEEG gain weight or have sexual dsyfunction on Nardil". The problem is I only half (or less than half) believe in his methodology--so I believe the weight gain has to do with histamine receptors and so forth. Anyway, I'm officially off selegiline and start a very low dose (5mg) of Parnate in 3 days--which I know is a short wash-out period, but he bases these things of my QEEG (and, of course, I'll be very careful to look for problems).
I also asked him if I have temporal lobe epilepsy that didn't manifest itself in physical seizures. He looked at my chart, explained that these things are continuums and then said that I did have temporal lobe epilepsy. Well, one more thing to think about. I think that I remember reading that Tegretal has a very high rate of success with depressed people who have temporal lobe epilepsy. Another option, anyway.
I went to my first DMDA meeting on Tuesday. I went with Neal, another psychobabbler who happens to live in Los Angeles. It was helpful to me to see how others cope. I may go back. I'm still thinking it through.
All my best to you Shelli. You are a jewel, truly.
>
> Shelli
Posted by Elizabeth on July 26, 2001, at 22:05:44
In reply to Re: I'll hold your hand if you'll hold mine » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on July 23, 2001, at 19:16:11
> Hi Elizabeth
Hi there.
> > It's called "intellectual laziness."
>
> Actually, I think it has more to do with close-mindedness re opitates. She was not usually that way; in fact on somethings, she was eager to see what was written.I'd categorise closed-mindedness under "intellectual laziness."
> You wrote to Lorraine that the despamine was going pretty well.
Yes. I'm pleasantly surprised.
> What is your dosage goal ?
300 mg/day (which I reached a couple days ago).
> Does doing "pretty well" mean you are feeling some benefit, or tolerating side effects?
The former: it seems to be working about as well as Parnate, and there could be further improvement. The side effects are noticeable at this dose (mainly dry mouth), but tolerable. It doesn't seem to work so great for panic, so I've been taking clonazepam (4 mg/day) too.
> I started estrogen today and I am euphoric ( < g >, just felt like using the word). No, but actually I have really bad PMS and now I wonder if I should have waited until I got my period to start the estrogen. Like I don't want to throw things off so the PMS lasts longer than usual. Oh well, too late.
FWIW, when I tried taking the pill last year, my depression returned (while I was taking Parnate and lithium), and when I discontinued the BCP, I rapidly returned to normal. Hormones aren't for everybody.
> BTW, there's a message to you from me yesterday, re Shappard Pratt, MPD, etc.
Ahh. I should check my mail, then! (I took an exhausting road trip Tuesday and have been feeling very wiped since then.)
-elizabeth
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