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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 74. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sulpicia on May 31, 2001, at 13:42:44
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE, posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 9:39:45
> > > > The statement by Sulpicia, "I can guarantee you that Truehope stuff is not being tested at Harvard." What's with that????
>
> Hi Deb--
I'm glad you've found some relief.
I want to clarify my statement and answer your question.
A poster on this forum claimed that the Truehope supplements were being tested at Harvard University.
Tho it sounded unlikely, I checked Harvard's Red Book -- it's on-line and details all current research
at Harvard and the investigators involved. There is no mention of Truehope. Yet to be doubly sure, I sent
a link to the thread here to the Harvard Office of Public Affairs.
No such research is on-going at Harvard and they were NOT pleased with the claims to the contrary. As I
write this, the matter is still in the hands of the Office of Public Affairs.The fact that you have found relief and Truehope's lack of scientific confirmation are not mutually exclusive.
I *do* object to any group, especially lay-people, who tell psychiatric patients to abruptly stop their meds: it
puts suffering people at risk of death.On a more personal level, I find the chart for Moms to track their autistic children's *progress* on the Truehope
stuff obscene. I nearly threw up when I saw it on the web site.I don't begrudge you your happiness but let's not pretend that there is an evidentiary basis for the Truehope supplements
at the present time.
I also cannot reconcile the dishonesty involved with a group who claims that they only want to help people.My opinion.
Be well,
S.
Posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 14:24:56
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification » Deb_s, posted by Sulpicia on May 31, 2001, at 13:42:44
> > > > > The statement by Sulpicia, "I can guarantee you that Truehope stuff is not being tested at Harvard." What's with that????
> >
> > Hi Deb--
> I'm glad you've found some relief.
> I want to clarify my statement and answer your question.
> A poster on this forum claimed that the Truehope supplements were being tested at Harvard University.
> Tho it sounded unlikely, I checked Harvard's Red Book -- it's on-line and details all current research
> at Harvard and the investigators involved. There is no mention of Truehope. Yet to be doubly sure, I sent
> a link to the thread here to the Harvard Office of Public Affairs.
> No such research is on-going at Harvard and they were NOT pleased with the claims to the contrary. As I
> write this, the matter is still in the hands of the Office of Public Affairs.
Thanks for your response! I'm very intrigued by this, but still not entirely convinced, as I know (since this is what I do) that research can be very tricky. "Truehope" is the name of the website, and "Synergy Group" the name of the organization, and E.M. Power the name of the product, but I wouldn't be sure how to find out the name of the research study itself. A key seems to be chelated minerals. It is much easier to prove that something exists than that it does not. Do you know how the Harvard public affairs folks looked for this research?> I *do* object to any group, especially lay-people, who tell psychiatric patients to abruptly stop their meds: it
> puts suffering people at risk of death.I agree; but to be fair, Truehope does not tell psychiatric patients to abruptly stop their meds; in fact, they advise working closely with your physician, etc.
>
> I don't begrudge you your happiness but let's not pretend that there is an evidentiary basis for the Truehope supplements
> at the present time.I never so "pretended" - but i'm really fed up with the "crap shoot" i've been involved with with antidepressant medication - have you ever looked at the information sheets? mechanism of action unknown, dosage unknown, reason it works unknown, cause of depression unknown, side effects ... (every time i got a side effect, my doctor would say, gosh, i never heard of that happening before!).
seems to me that with antidepressants, and everything else, if it works, it works, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. very scientific, yes?
> I also cannot reconcile the dishonesty involved with a group who claims that they only want to help people.
I'm not sure on what you base the "dishonesty" bit - I haven't seen Truehope "claim" anything, nor does it seem to be pushing a product.
We'll all see, I guess.
Posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 14:36:20
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 14:24:56
> I'm not sure on what you base the "dishonesty" bit - I haven't seen Truehope "claim" anything, nor does it seem to be pushing a product.
>Deb,
I'm a bit confused. On another thread you said that this cost about $120. a month. Aren't you buying this from Truehope?
Jane
Posted by good4u on May 31, 2001, at 15:07:36
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 14:36:20
> > I'm not sure on what you base the "dishonesty" bit - I haven't seen Truehope "claim" anything, nor does it seem to be pushing a product.
> >
>
> Deb,
>
> I'm a bit confused. On another thread you said that this cost about $120. a month. Aren't you buying this from Truehope?
>
> Jane
There IS a product which they are selling, 4 sure. I also know, however, that it costs money to create, manufacture, and market a product. And to devote yourself fulltime to a job,cause,project, etc. requires money - quite possibly supported by sales of the product. Who would give the company money for an unproven, non-pharmaceutical-based product? ummm..."no one" is one very-possible answer...I'm trying NOT to be overly idealistic/optimistic about the product, nor overly skeptical - though clearly the desire to believe is stronger. Like everyone else, I'm just anxiously awaiting results of research studies. "TRUEHOPE" is at this point a perfect description of our attitudes regarding the ACTUAL effectiveness of the product.
Posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2001, at 15:25:19
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by good4u on May 31, 2001, at 15:07:36
Doesn't work.
Posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 15:38:34
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by good4u on May 31, 2001, at 15:07:36
> > > I'm not sure on what you base the "dishonesty" bit - I haven't seen Truehope "claim" anything, nor does it seem to be pushing a product.
> > >
> >
> > Deb,
> >
> > I'm a bit confused. On another thread you said that this cost about $120. a month. Aren't you buying this from Truehope?
> >
> > Jane
>
>
> There IS a product which they are selling, 4 sure. I also know, however, that it costs money to create, manufacture, and market a product. And to devote yourself fulltime to a job,cause,project, etc. requires money - quite possibly supported by sales of the product. Who would give the company money for an unproven, non-pharmaceutical-based product? ummm..."no one" is one very-possible answer...I'm trying NOT to be overly idealistic/optimistic about the product, nor overly skeptical - though clearly the desire to believe is stronger. Like everyone else, I'm just anxiously awaiting results of research studies. "TRUEHOPE" is at this point a perfect description of our attitudes regarding the ACTUAL effectiveness of the product.Yet my multivitamin, with almost the same ingredients, costs about two dollars a month. And convincing people to pay huge amounts of money for hope alone has been a profitable business for centuries.
Posted by stjames on May 31, 2001, at 15:47:22
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits » good4u, posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 15:38:34
> Yet my multivitamin, with almost the same ingredients, costs about two dollars a month. And convincing people to pay huge amounts of money for hope alone has been a profitable business for centuries.
james here...
Looking at the ingredients for TRUEHOPE it is just a multivitamin, no more. Why pay $120.00 ?
james
Posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:48:59
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 14:36:20
> Deb,
>
> I'm a bit confused. On another thread you said that this cost about $120. a month. Aren't you buying this from Truehope?
yes, the price went up slightly - i use 2 bottles a month, so it's now about $140/month. This compares with about $700/mo for my previous meds .
Posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:53:25
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by good4u on May 31, 2001, at 15:07:36
>I'm trying NOT to be overly idealistic/optimistic about the product, nor overly skeptical - though clearly the desire to believe is stronger
indeed, just imagining that i could get better did wonders for me - i got much better even before i made the switch, just knowing i was going to take action. so maybe it's all placebo - and from my point of view, who cares?
i just couldn't wait any longer for THE ANSWER to appear. if i just kept upping my meds (140mg Prozac, by the way, is over the top), how would i ever know what was left of me?
Posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:56:34
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits » good4u, posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 15:38:34
>
> Yet my multivitamin, with almost the same ingredients, costs about two dollars a month. And convincing people to pay huge amounts of money for hope alone has been a profitable business for centuries.Have you taken a look at the ingredients? Then try to put together the same ingredients at "WalMart"? You can't fit it into a $2 pill; now let's be fair, and compare apples with apples.
Posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:58:57
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by stjames on May 31, 2001, at 15:47:22
> james here...
>
> Looking at the ingredients for TRUEHOPE it is just a multivitamin, no more. Why pay $120.00 ?
>
> jamesdoes anyone in this discussion have all the facts? or any facts? or is it just fun to throw numbers around? i'm with good4u; let's look for positive answers; otherwise, I'd rather take a walk.
Posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2001, at 16:06:35
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:58:57
Deb - The only thing that really differentiates this from any popular multivitamin seems to be a high level of zinc. Every few years the megavitamin proponents come out of the woodwork, make lots of money selling mail order, and skulk back into oblivion, until the next generation comes to spend their hard earned money. The Calgary group also say not to go off of your current meds, so what is the extra benefit, besides fluorescent yellow pee?
Show me the data - Cam
Posted by stjames on May 31, 2001, at 16:16:24
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:58:57
>
> > james here...
> >
> > Looking at the ingredients for TRUEHOPE it is just a multivitamin, no more. Why pay $120.00 ?
> >
> > james
>
>
>
> does anyone in this discussion have all the facts? or any facts? or is it just fun to throw numbers around? i'm with good4u; let's look for positive answers; otherwise, I'd rather take a walk.James here.....
I took these facts (the ingredients) from the TRUEHOPE web page. With minerals and vitamans there really is not a "better" source.
james
Posted by Jane D on May 31, 2001, at 16:59:02
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 15:58:57
>
> > james here...
> >
> > Looking at the ingredients for TRUEHOPE it is just a multivitamin, no more. Why pay $120.00 ?
> >
> > james
>
>
>
> does anyone in this discussion have all the facts? or any facts? or is it just fun to throw numbers around? i'm with good4u; let's look for positive answers; otherwise, I'd rather take a walk.I think you've just identified why I'm so frustrated. There aren't many facts to argue with here because Truehope isn't providing any. As far as where I got my facts from, I just held up my vitamin bottle (generic - $2 a mo) against the list on the web site. Some difference in amounts. Some difference in ingredients. Nothing on the web site to convince me that those differences mattered.
I don't think anyone is condemning this blindly. We all went and looked after all. But criticizing things that haven't been shown to work IS a positive step towards finding things that do. In fact it's the only way. Why would any company bother to put in all that money on research if they thought they could get our money without it.
I really hope it does work. When they can show that it does I'll rush out with my $140. or even more but until then all the available evidence favors my spending that money on more conventional drugs.
I hope that you will keep reporting your experience here. As anecdotal evidence it is as interesting and useful as the accounts about Prozac or Effexor.
Posted by Sulpicia on May 31, 2001, at 17:25:16
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification, posted by good4u on May 31, 2001, at 15:07:36
> > >
>
>
> Like everyone else, I'm just anxiously awaiting results of research studies.This is precisely the problem: there are NO research studies, not studies long underway, nor being done presently.
We are asked to believe their claims based on anectdotal claims involving tiny numbers of people. This product has
been around now for over a year and yet the group can produce no research results. You are entirely correct that nobody
would fund a study for this product, tho not because it's unproven nor because it's non-pharmaceutical.
The National Institute of Health is one of the largest grantors for research and they certainly do fund studies for unproven
treatments. What sets Truehope's products apart from the others is that researchers can give a reasonable account of why the
agent they want to study should work. For example, it's known that lithium lowers the level of inositol in the body: *if* this
were the mechanism by which it controled mania, it would not be unreasonable to see if giving inositol supplements were an
effective treatment for depression. There are numerous studies on this in fact.
The Truehope people could presumably never get a similar grant because there is no scientific evidence to believe that vitamins
can treat bipolar disorders, depression, ADD/HD, Tourettes Syndrome,schizophrenia, and Autism -- much less with the same formula.Doesn't it make you nervous that the Truehope head honcho, Daniel Stephan, when challenged on this forum to provide peer-reviewed
literature that would support ANY part of his product, had the audacity to cite an article on magnesium and schizophrenia in the American Journal of Psychiatry for 1929 [no typo]?
I should stop before I get worked up...
Be well,
S.
Posted by gilbert on May 31, 2001, at 22:55:19
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE/clarification » good4u, posted by Sulpicia on May 31, 2001, at 17:25:16
"Oh we got trouble.....right her in River city....with a capitol "T" and the rhymes with "P" and the stands for Truehope.........sorry I just could resist even the name is like some warm fuzzy new age Elixer sold off the back of a wagon.....I would respect it more if it were titled Untrue Hope or Maybe Hope or White Lie Hope or True Hopelessness, I feel a pyramid scheme coming on.
Gil
Posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:44:20
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits » Deb_s, posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2001, at 16:06:35
> Deb - The only thing that really differentiates this from any popular multivitamin seems to be a high level of zinc. Every few years the megavitamin proponents come out of the woodwork, make lots of money selling mail order, and skulk back into oblivion, until the next generation comes to spend their hard earned money. The Calgary group also say not to go off of your current meds, so what is the extra benefit, besides fluorescent yellow pee?
>
> Show me the data - CamI'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. I'm only sharing my experience.
Posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:46:45
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits » Deb_s, posted by Cam W. on May 31, 2001, at 16:06:35
> Deb - The only thing that really differentiates this from any popular multivitamin seems to be a high level of zinc. ... The Calgary group also say not to go off of your current meds
And by the way, the statements above are incorrect. But I'm not going to waste anymore of my time on this -- you who wish to become informed, do your own research.
Posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:56:38
In reply to Re: Oh we got trouble, posted by gilbert on May 31, 2001, at 22:55:19
> "Oh we got trouble.....right her in River city....with a capitol "T" and the rhymes with "P" and the stands for Truehope.........sorry I just could resist even the name is like some warm fuzzy new age Elixer sold off the back of a wagon.....I would respect it more if it were titled Untrue Hope or Maybe Hope or White Lie Hope or True Hopelessness, I feel a pyramid scheme coming on.
>Now I know why they call this psycho-babble. Bye, bye, folks!
Posted by Cam W. on June 1, 2001, at 10:17:03
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:46:45
> And by the way, the statements above are incorrect. But I'm not going to waste anymore of my time on this -- you who wish to become informed, do your own research.Deb - Funny, I talked to a prominent psychiatrist who went to school with the head researcher in Calgary. He said that after some initial excitement, the randomized controlled trial is not going quite as they expected. Now, they are telling those who want to try it to stay on their meds. They are using some people with bipolar disorder, who are having breakthrough episodes; but these people are still having breakthrough episodes after a couple of months on the vitamin treatment. Also, I have personally talked to 4 people (one I have been following for more than 5 years) who had been trying the vitamins for periods for 3 to 6 months. All, at separate meetings, have said that the only thing the vitamins did was lighten their pockets. I realize that this is not a scienctific representation, but it does make one wonder...
The problem with doing research on bipolar disorder is that the condition is chronic and relapsing. The natural progression of the disease is punctuated by episodes of mania and/or depression, interspersed with varying periods of "normal" functioning. With each episode, the next episode comes sooner, is greater in severity, and lasts longer, because of a kindling mechanism. Therefore, one needs to monitor relapses prior to therapy and compare them to the relapse incidence on the new therapy. It would be incredibly unethical to take someone off their medication, even if the medication offered partial relief, and place this person on an unproven treatment. Because of the risks involved, due to kindling, this kind of research would never be approved by any ethics committee.
Furthermore, if you have bipolar disorder and stop your medication, you may not relapse in a week or in a month, but the chances of relapsing within the next couple of years (depending on the severity of the disorder) are better than 90%.
There is my research, may I see yours? - Cam
Posted by kid47 on June 1, 2001, at 10:32:34
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:44:20
Hi Deb. Boy we certainly can be a jaded & cynical bunch. I think because so many of us, like yourself, have had such disappointment with meds (&docs) that promise a magic bullet & deliver only more misery, we tend to be wary of (& justly so) something that appears to be to good to be True.(sorry for the lame attempt at humor). But I don't argue with success. If this particular regimine is working for you (for whatever reason) I congratulate you & thank you for sharing your story . Just like the "approved" meds & therapy, it may work for some & be a disaster for others. I would like to believe that the negative comments posted here are motivated by concerns that someone less "experienced" with this circus of mental health treatment, might jump at this without investigating it. Of course that is potentially a problem with any type treatment discussed on this list.
Anyway, I wish you continued success & personally would be very interested in being informed of your progress. Good luck. Take care.
kid
>
> I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. I'm only sharing my experience.
Posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 10:39:00
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE -Deb-You Go Girl!!, posted by kid47 on June 1, 2001, at 10:32:34
> Hi Deb. Boy we certainly can be a jaded & cynical bunch. I think because so many of us, like yourself, have had such disappointment with meds (&docs) that promise a magic bullet & deliver only more misery, we tend to be wary of (& justly so) something that appears to be to good to be True.(sorry for the lame attempt at humor). But I don't argue with success. If this particular regimine is working for you (for whatever reason) I congratulate you & thank you for sharing your story . Just like the "approved" meds & therapy, it may work for some & be a disaster for others. I would like to believe that the negative comments posted here are motivated by concerns that someone less "experienced" with this circus of mental health treatment, might jump at this without investigating it. Of course that is potentially a problem with any type treatment discussed on this list.
>
> Anyway, I wish you continued success & personally would be very interested in being informed of your progress. Good luck. Take care.
>
> kid
>
Thanks, kid! I admit I was getting rather down by this thread - even though i know i shouldn't take it "personally" - it's been a very long row to hoe, and I'm getting mighty tired. I really appreciate the encouragement. I get so frustrated, because the whole mental health thing seems like such a crap shoot. And if this doesn't work, what next?
Posted by gilbert on June 1, 2001, at 10:39:05
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits » Deb_s, posted by Cam W. on June 1, 2001, at 10:17:03
Deb,
Sorry don't mean tp pile on it just seemed like a little humor injected would help. Please forgive me and my sarcasm but after 30 years of trying anything and everthing to get well, macrobitics, vegetarian diet, gary Null, and on and on and on....I lean a little more toward conventional Pharmacology.......And Oh yea by the way they do call it Pycho Babble because some of us are Pyscho....I relish in the thought of my pycho-ness....normal people are so boring......I hope you keep on expressing your opinion and don't get scared off by a little spirited debate. This board is fun to read and very informaative because we don't all agree...whata boring place it would be if we did.
Gil
Posted by cole on June 1, 2001, at 21:14:04
In reply to Re: Deb not rying to prove anything, posted by gilbert on June 1, 2001, at 10:39:05
Deb,
I haven't been around much recently, but since I had asked you to keep us updated a while ago I wanted to thank you for posting your experiences. I know it must be tough with people debating your treatment choice. I honestly believe that we all need to do what makes each one of us well, and no one treatment is going to help everyone. I think that there is validity in using supplementation, especially with the crap most people eat these days :) I've had very effective natural treatments from a naturopath for problems ranging from infections and reflux disease, but these therapies don't have the reams of paper in support because there aren't drug companies to back the research. Luckily places like Bastyr University (a naturopathic medical school) and the University of Washington are teaming up to do randomized studies on many of the tried and true natural medical treatments.
When I discussed the role of supplementation and natural therapies in mental health with my pdoc, she seemed really supportive. She has her PhD in neuroscience and is an MD, and she admitted "the naturopaths have so much knowledge that we never get in traditional medical training". She feels that proper nutrients play a role because we need them to synthesize the proteins in our bodies, and if we aren't utilizing the nutrients correctly it makes perfect sense that illness would result. Of course this doesn't mean that supplementation would be the answer, but it could definitely play a role.
Anyhoo, I'm glad this stuff is working out for you. Stick with it if you're feeling better.
cole
Posted by Truth is hard to find on June 1, 2001, at 22:59:29
In reply to Re: Deb not rying to prove anything, posted by cole on June 1, 2001, at 21:14:04
It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that there is any "resarch study" being done at Harvard University regarding the vitamin/mineral supplement being promoted by the Synergy Group of Canada (website "Truehope").
The supplement is marketed by them as "EM Power+"I state this because:
I attended a formal presentation by "The Synergy Group of Canada" (I shall refer to them as "Truehope")
on May 9, 2001 (as I stated in a note yesterday).
The "Truehope" speakers were Mr. Anthony Stephan and Mr. David Hardy (the company founders).
This presentation was at the McLean Hospital, a Harvard Medical School teaching & research hospital.Also speaking was Dr. Andrew Stoll, Director of the Psychopharmacology Research Laboratory of McLean Hospital.
NO ONE mentioned or claimed that there had been, or is curently, ANY research being done or planned at Harvard on these supplements or the equivalent.
Dr. Andrew Stoll would almost certainly be aware if a study were underway at Harvard.
The Truehope representatives would certainly have mentioned such a study as part of their self-promotion.Dr. Stoll express interest in creating such a study.
HOWERVER, he stated that approval to conduct such a study may be denied for several reasons:
1. The Truehope daily dosage of 4 of the minerals are above what he noted to be the "Upper Limit of Safety"
Most significan is Magnesium, where their dosage is about 3 times what he noted as the "Upper Limit".
The others were Zinc (200% of UL), Selenium (200% of UL), and Copper (120% of UL).
2. He also expressed concern about his hospital approving a study requiring patients to stop their medication.Note: the context of this presentation was a meeting of the Boston chapter of the Manic Depressive and Depressive Association.
It was not sponsored or supported by the Harvard Medical School.
The nature of the presentation by "Truehope" was "promotional".
Of the audience (about 200 persons) some expressed HOPE for relief from their suffereing, but many expressed great dissatisfaction with the presentation.Dr. Stoll did not recommend or support use of the Truehope formula,
and among the problems he noted with the information presented by Truehope were:
a. Placebo effect not accounted for / desire of the participant to want the supplement to work
b. Lack of systematic diagnosis of persons taking the supplements
c. "Drop outs" were not counted
d. Lack of "double blind" nature of reporting of results
e. Questionable safety of long term use of the supplements
f. Expense of the supplements.
g. Reported gastointestinal side effects.I should note that Dr. Stoll did not dismiss the POSSIBILITY of the supplements having an effect
on manic-depression (the focus of his interest), but the basic "scientific summary" of the
presentation was "it will be great if it works, but we have no credible data, only SELECTED
testimonials, to support that conclusion".
Go forward in thread:
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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