![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 115 to 139 of 170. Go back in thread:
Posted by dougb on May 23, 2001, at 11:24:17
In reply to Re: Nutcase fellowship » dougb, posted by JahL on May 22, 2001, at 20:42:58
> I know more than my fair share of headcases. Guys who've spent yrs holed up in squalid Spanish nicks.
---Spanish nicks - please translate> As far as 'civvies' go, this is how i see many:
Slave away to compete for material prosperity; forget to smell the flowers, play with the kids, love the wife, step on any who get in the way, forgetting that what we reap is what we sow. Die prematurely due to stress of above lifestyle, go out the way you came in, with nothing....
db
Posted by DianeD on May 24, 2001, at 13:24:17
In reply to Re: Methadone - AndrewB and all interested, posted by H. Vincent MacGruder on May 7, 2001, at 9:32:55
Replies and additions
> >Elizabeth > We're talking about using it as an AD -- not for pain or opioid dependence.
> > Elizabeth > You can't assume that the principles that apply to MMT will also be true of the use of methadone (or other opioid agonists) for depression.I don't see why not. After so many days/weeks my system is clean of heroin so I don't see where I would then differ from a straight AD patient or anyone else.
If you are talking about starting dosage than yes maybe/probably so. But like I said before, clinics start you out on 40mg whether you are a light weight or heavy weight user.
I've gone in as both. The former (light weight) is when Methadone worked it's miracle on me.I don't know of any studies, clinical trial, with Methadone in regards to depression, except for the ones sighted below and the one I found by Goldstein, J.A. "Methadone for depression."
Biol. Psychiatry 19(8): 1272-73, 1984. , which is all of three tiny paragraphs. I'll add it to the end of this post*All I know is my own personal experience with it . I've said it before and I'll say it again, I had no expectation from Methadone except to keep me from getting sick. The
AD effect was a total surprise. And it was 100%. 180 degree turn 'round, complete remission, whatever you want to call it. That was with 40mg. The only reason I
eventually went up to 80mg was because I was scared to death the AD effect would disappear if I didn't (the old tolerance mentality). I mean this was the first time in my
life I'd ever felt/been NORMAL. First time ever!, my first taste, and I was scared to death of loosing it. I was Euthymic.> >Elizabeth >That depends on your reaction to it (highly individualized). Some people feel "foggy" on it.
I am not suggesting by any stretch that Methadone is right for everyone or that it will have the same effect. But I figure if it worked miracles for me that it just might work for others.
Water is probably the only thing one could safely say is right for everyone.> > DianeD > methadone does not get you high
I knew I should of clarified that. Here goes. When people think of Methadone they immediately think that because it's used as a heroin "substitute", that it must behave the same as they
envision heroin. And most peoples knowledge of heroin comes from Hollywood. Which means, they see a gutter junkie stumbling around unable to keep his eyes open and speaking in a
slurry mess. What you are seeing is either a person who is in the middle of a heroin rush, which last maybe an hour or so depending of course on numerous factors. or one who has just
consumed way too much. Anyway, I don't want to think about that crap cuz I think it's gross too. Well Methadone doesn't work like that. GRANTED if you took some god awful
amount or were injecting it I'm sure it would. But we are not talking extremes here.....or at least I'm not. I'm talking responsible individualized dosing here."A single dose administered to stabilize an individual lasts between 24 - 36 hours without causing euphoria sedation or analgesia. This enables the individual to function normally and to
perform mental and physical tasks without impairment. "" In proper doses, methadone does not create euphoria, sedation or analgesia. It does not harm motor skills, mental capability or employability."
For me, 20 mins. after dosing I might feel it coming on for all of one minute, BUT, that is IF and only if, I happen to be sitting waiting at a stop light. Otherwise I didn't. Like I keep saying
it isn't that type of drug. The delivery is long and slooooow. Unlike other opiates which can slap you upside the head.> >NikkiT2 > Oh, and so if Effexor is as bad as Metadone, why is Methadone sold on the "black amrket", yet effexor isn't??
Because Effexor is readily available/obtainable to one and all. Methadone is not. Every time you "outlaw" something a black market develops. That's why the "War on
Drugs" is a failure. Prohibition was a failure.Re: Fears of methadone diversion (your black market). Yes, there are people who sell their doses of methadone but they are very very VERY few.
And there are even fewer buyers cuz it's sold at such ridiculously high prices. A dollar a milligram in 1992 (who knows what it is today) The normal/average dose of methadone
is 80 mg a day. Do the numbers. It'd cost you $560.00 per _week!"While methadone has some potential for abuse when diverted from normal channels, the extent of the abuse associated with diverted methadone is small relative to heroin and cocaine,"
reports a 1995 Institute of Medicine report on methadone. Dr. Lewis Judd, psychiatric department chair at the University of California at San Diego and chair of a National Institutes of
Health panel that examined methadone's utility, describes the black market for methadone as a "negligible" problem. Most of those who take diverted methadone are seeking to stabilize
themselves before entering treatment, or want to quit but aren't yet ready to seek help, he says. Most experts agree that methadone rarely is a preferred drug for illicit drug users because
its action is too slow and the level of euphoria it provides is too mild."Alcohol is toxic/addictive, has high abuse potential yet is legal. Cigarettes are toxic/addictive, have high abuse potential yet are legal. Methadone is non-toxic/ is addictive and has low
abuse potential but it is outlawed to the point were doctors fear prescribing it. It is villainized."Methadone has no active metabolites. Much of the toxicity associated with other opioids (e.g., morphine, hydromorphone, meperidine, and fentanyl) is the result of metabolite
accumulation.""Concerns about methadone's effects on the immune system and on the kidneys, liver and heart have been laid to rest. Methadone's most common side effects - constipation and sweating
- usually fade with time, and are not serious health hazards.""Methadone is well tolerated long term with no appreciable side effects other than physical dependence." J.A Goldstein.
Methadone has been around for what, 50+ years? Death and/or illness from Methadone is rare.
> >NikkiT2 > Cos Effexor doesn't give you a high...
Depends on what you consider a high. If it relieves you of your depression you might very well feel high......good. You definitely ain't feeling LOW. For me feeling normal for
once was the best high I'd ever had.Like I said before methadone is like a runners high. I can't compare it with other opiates cuz I never cared for other opiates. Heroin is garbage compared to Methadone. Heroin
is just a pacifier. Methadone gave me energy, stability, strength. Rid me of my anxiety therefore I could listen and learn and remember under stress. It put me on an equal
footing with everyone else. Gave me a positive, I-can-do-to-it, force. And on and on......Somebody here said something about a friend of theirs having to go into the clinic everyday.
That is incorrect or rather that is not the norm.
After 2 or 3 months, if you are clean/drug free, you get your first take-home. Usually within 6 to 8 months of your admittance you have five take-homes. So you only come
into the clinic twice a week. If you are dirty tho, you're not given take-homes or your take-homes are taken away from you as punishment. Take-homes are "earned"> >Elizabeth >. I don't believe there are "good drugs" and "bad drugs" (except for a few
things which are simply toxins). I believe there are helpful uses and unhelpful or harmful
uses of almost all drugs.I agree 100%. Elizabeth is able to put this subject in better perspective. It's too much of an emotional issue for me. It angers me that I can't get the one thing that works for me.
And that makes me feel more helpless than I already am. Suicidal. I've tried asking my doctor to help me. No go. I have asked at various boards. Got one guy who gets it indirectly for
depression. He has become a serious methadone advocate as a result of his experience. And is in fact co-director of ARM Home Page - Advocates for Recovery through Medicine
(http://www.arm-advocates.org/). He was never a heroin/opiate user. Here is some of what he wrote to me. "Fortunately for me Diane, America is a Capitalistic society. In other words, if
you got money you can get what you want---away with murder even, I'm afraid (he's referring to O.J, that's how long ago this was) I had "friends" and a valid reason to get dolophine,
even though my doctor knew it was for depression. He and I were the ones that went and found that research you read on Rose Whithers website-and he prescribed me dolophine
(methadone) for depression."Here's Rose Whithers website and the index page of "Medical Articles about opioids and their use as a treatment of Depression, Bipolar Disorder and other psychiatric
conditions" http://www.addict.f2s.com/medarticlemenu.html
> >Cecilia > I`m quite certain my HMO would never approve of opiates for depression-there`s no way I would even ask.
I'm quite sure they wouldn't either and I find that a real shame. Even mentioning it would probably send up warning flags and brand you as a possible drug seeker. The doc might even put
a six-sided star * in your file.Yep. I was totally up front and honest with my doctor (something I will never do again) but it's obvious now that he didn't believed me. I even told him I had hepatitis three times and was
interested in getting vaccinated against Hep. B. But it wasn't until five years later and for reasons unknown, he decided to run a liver function test. The results of which he never bothered
to inform me until I just happened to make an appointment to ask for a Wellbutrin scrip. ONE YEAR and 27 days later. Turns out I had had Hep B. and currently had/have
Hep. C. Could I sue for malpractice over that? It's all in my file. I handed him a printout of my history the very first day I went to him in '95, and have handed him a printout of
symptoms, question etc. every time I've seen him.
Anyway, after that, I think he finally believed me about heroin/methadone, cuz he now treats me like I'm the scum of the earth. I kid you not. It's like night and day. It's amazing the
prejudice and out and out hate surrounding heroin/Methadone. Even tho I've been clean of heroin for 17 yrs, and methadone 9 yrs. Elizabeth's "negative knee-jerk
reaction" says it all. People's minds just clamp shut.I read somewhere on a website dedicated to statistics, that 80% of the people who abuse/use heroin were from the middle and upper socio-economic class brackets. That
only 20% came from the lower to poverty levels. And I can believe it. My husband and I were middle class and most the heroin users we knew were also.> > Elizabeth > Methadone is a controlled substance because it is considered (rightly) to have *abuse potential* -- *not* because it is considered "addictive."
In my mind, everything has abuse potential and can be addictive. Methadone has the least abuse potential of all the pain killers. See above.
> >NikkT2 > *g* I personally luuuurve diazapam.. its one of the few meds that have ever helped me ... but I won't take them due to their addiction level,
Oh the sacrifices we make. Gee, isn't it nice that NikkT2 has the option/choice of getting Valium, which she dearly loves, but suffers to not partake. Her forbidden fruit.
And how nice to be able to fly off to Thailand for a little backpacking. Must do your depression/anxiety good. It's a totally different ball game when you have the power of
choice (and money don't hurt either).
I use to do allot a backpacking (CA,OR) till a black bear wrenched my brand new big Kelty from between two trees (30' up mind
you) and ripped it to shreds. Ate all the food, packaging and all! Don't you know, some people just have all the luck ;o) I apologize in advance Dr. Bob.
Can a psychiatrist prescribe methadone? Can a psychiatrist prescribe methadone for pain?LINKS OF POSSIBLE INTEREST (I should of search for more but I've got a raging headache now. I'm sorry, maybe next time 'round)
http://www.ampainsoc.org/pub/bulletin/sep00/upda1.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767900316/drbobsvirte00-20 Excellent book on how it is and how the War on Drugs is failing. This
comes from the same guy who wrote "Homicide" (from whence the TV series came) another excellent non-fiction book.*___________
Methadone for Depression Jay A. Goldstein January 25, 1984
I read with interest the article in the September 1983 issue "Methadone, Monomine Oxidase, and depression: Opioid Distribution and Acute Effects on Enzymes
Activity", by Kaufmann er al.The authors were unable to account for the antidepressant effect of methadone by monoamine oxidase inhibition. A paper has been published showing that methadone displaces
3H-impramine from it's binding sites in rat brains and platelets with a IC50 at least 100 times less
than morphine or met-enkephalin (De Montis et al. 1982). The authors suggested that the antidepressant effect of methadone was probably independent of it's opioid activity for this
reason.I have prescribes methadone or suicidal patients with severe cardiopulmonary disease when their cardiologist were apprehensive about using traditional antidepressant agents (Goldstein,
1981). I have found that very low doses were effective in this elderly population, usually
about 5mg daily. One woman became hypomanic on this dose but did well on 5mg every other day. Tolerance did not develop, and one patient was maintained on methadone for 3 years,
since she became depressed again when it was stopped. No side effects were apparent.Several researchers have used methadone as an opioid agonist when assessing neuroendocrine relationships in various diagnostic groups. Since methadone appears to have intrinsic
antidepressant properties, results in studies such as these should be skeptically viewed if certain
skewing of results toward the affective disease category is demonstrated.
REFERENCESDe Montis, G. M., Devoto, P., and Tagliamonte, A. (1982). Possible antidepressant activity of methadone. Eur. J. of Pharmacol. 79: 145-146.
Goldstein, J. A. (1981, September 23). Therapeutic lessons from a family practitioner. Terapaeia, 24-23.
Kaufmann, C.A., Kreek, M., Raghunath, J., and Arns, P. (1983). Methadone Monoamine oxidase, and depression: Opioid distribution and acute effects on enzyme activity. Biol.
Psychiat. 18" 1007-10021.
___________I've written everybody from the President of the US on down the line thru the House, Senate, DEA, FDA, Boarderpatrol, local and non-local Newspapers editorials, you name it I've
written to em to share my experience and express thoughts on the issue of Methadone. I write my own congressmen regularly and send my own personal form letter quarterly to every
member of the Senate, House of Rep.I want my Methadone. I don't want to have to lie to a doctor to get it. The rules governing methadone prescribing are archaic. They are not based on currant knowledge but on old
unfounded fears. More damage has been done in this world because of fear than probably anything else. Fear and ignorance go hand and hand. They feed off each other.Which reminds me, I just finished reading Steven Kings latest offering "Dreamcatcher". It stinks. It is his worse yet. It is the worse book I've ever read in my whole life in fact. I don't
recommend it :o)
Posted by Elizabeth on May 24, 2001, at 21:43:26
In reply to Methadone to all interested, posted by DianeD on May 24, 2001, at 13:24:17
> > > Elizabeth > You can't assume that the principles that apply to MMT will also be true of the use of methadone (or other opioid agonists) for depression.
>
> I don't see why not.People who take methadone as part of treatment for an addiction are completely tolerant to the dose they are on. It doesn't elevate their mood; its only purpose is to prevent the protracted opioid withdrawal syndrome. If you're taking it for depression, you are trying to get an effect (not just to maintain homeostasis), and it's quite possible, though not certain, that you could become tolerant to this effect.
> After so many days/weeks my system is clean of heroin so I don't see where I would then differ from a straight AD patient or anyone else.
I don't recall how long you used heroin (did you mention it?). There are long-term changes (the protracted abstinence syndrome that I mentioned above) that have been documented in long-term opioid users.
If you're suffering from protracted abstinence syndrome, you'll probably know it. My guess is that you are, since you've been in MMT. Have you ever been free of all opioids for a year or more, and if so, did you still feel a continuous lingering discomfort? That's the best I can describe it. Like I said, if you've experienced it, you'll probably know.
> I am not suggesting by any stretch that Methadone is right for everyone or that it will have the same effect. But I figure if it worked miracles for me that it just might work for others.
It has -- no doubt about that. But some do find that, at the doses they require, it is sedating or concentration-impairing. And some people do abuse it -- it is possible to get high on methadone (although it doesn't cause a "rush," the high is supposed to last all day). You're right that it doesn't get people high who are in MMT and are taking it as directed.
> Water is probably the only thing one could safely say is right for everyone.
< g >
> Methadone has been around for what, 50+ years? Death and/or illness from Methadone is rare.
Yes. OTOH, its potential lethality in overdose is a disadvantage of methadone as an AD.
> Methadone gave me energy, stability, strength. Rid me of my anxiety therefore I could listen and learn and remember under stress. It put me on an equal
> footing with everyone else. Gave me a positive, I-can-do-to-it, force. And on and on......Sounds familiar.
> I agree 100%. Elizabeth is able to put this subject in better perspective. It's too much of an emotional issue for me. It angers me that I can't get the one thing that works for me.
(Thanks :) )
I agree with you -- it's unfair that you have to take extraordinary measures just to feel normal.
re HMOs:
> I'm quite sure they wouldn't either and I find that a real shame.My prescription plan (through an HMO) pays for my buprenorphine.
> In my mind, everything has abuse potential and can be addictive. Methadone has the least abuse potential of all the pain killers. See above.
"...of all full opioid agonists" is what I think you mean, and if so, I agree. Buprenorphine has less abuse potential, and NSAIDS like Toradol and Advil have none. To say a drug has "abuse potential" just means that you can get high on it. Even MAOIs have (*very* modest) "abuse potential."
> Can a psychiatrist prescribe methadone? Can a psychiatrist prescribe methadone for pain?
A psychiatrist can prescribe methadone, but not for maintenance treatment of opioid dependence. That has to be done through a methadone clinic. Also, if a psychiatrist (or any other sort of doctor -- even *pain* specialists!) prescribes methadone "too often," the DEA might show up questioning the necessity of it.
> I want my Methadone. I don't want to have to lie to a doctor to get it. The rules governing methadone prescribing are archaic. They are not based on currant knowledge but on old
> unfounded fears.Fears that are still held by many people, even physicians -- the result of government propaganda. Nobody should have to lie to their doctor to get adequate treatment.
-elizabeth
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 25, 2001, at 3:30:29
In reply to Methadone to all interested, posted by DianeD on May 24, 2001, at 13:24:17
> > >NikkT2 > *g* I personally luuuurve diazapam.. its one of the few meds that have ever helped me ... but I won't take them due to their addiction level,
>
> Oh the sacrifices we make. Gee, isn't it nice that NikkT2 has the option/choice of getting Valium, which she dearly loves, but suffers to not partake. Her forbidden fruit.
> And how nice to be able to fly off to Thailand for a little backpacking. Must do your depression/anxiety good. It's a totally different ball game when you have the power of
> choice (and money don't hurt either).
> I use to do allot a backpacking (CA,OR) till a black bear wrenched my brand new big Kelty from between two trees (30' up mind
> you) and ripped it to shreds. Ate all the food, packaging and all! Don't you know, some people just have all the luck ;o) I apologize in advance Dr. Bob.I'm sorry you haven't had more luck, but sarcasm isn't civil. If you think you should apologize for something, better just not to post it in the first place. I've already warned you, so now I'm going to try to block you from posting. Best wishes,
Bob
PS: As before, follow-ups regarding civility or being blocked, if not redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, may be deleted.
Posted by JahL on May 25, 2001, at 12:16:03
In reply to Re: Nutcase fellowship or maybe not..... » JahL, posted by dougb on May 23, 2001, at 11:24:17
Hi Doug.
> ---Spanish nicks - please translateSpanish *jails*, where Brits are routinely beaten for the crimes committed by the hoards of obstreperous, drunken Brits (& I've been one! ) who annually descend en masse upon Spanish shores, leaving in their wake a trail of vomit & destruction.
> As far as 'civvies' go, this is how i see many:
> Slave away to compete for material prosperity; forget to smell the flowers, play with the kids, love the wife, step on any who get in the way, forgetting that what we reap is what we sow. Die prematurely due to stress of above lifestyle, go out the way you came in, with nothing....Yeah I hear what you're saying. I'm not against the whole 9-5, wife & 2.4 kids bit per se. But you're right; too many people sail thru life, oblivious to the beauty that surrounds them, self-interest their prime motivation. Who knows, were I not ill maybe I'd be doing the whole 'respectable' bit, but having been depressed all my life I've learnt to take nothing for granted. It's one powerful lesson.
J.
Oh & re: Hicks. Some of it's too dark to be labelled 'comedy'. I find it pretty cathartic listening. Someone actually probing the *truth* about govt, society, drugs, with no regard for political correctness. & funny to boot!
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 29, 2001, at 11:32:16
In reply to Re: blocked from posting » DianeD, posted by Dr. Bob on May 25, 2001, at 3:30:29
OK, I'm gonna get blocked - but you pathetic, spiteful cow. You know nothing about my circumstances or how damned hard I have worked just for 2 weeks in Thailand seeing a very very close friend.
I work hard to earn money, and have never asked the state (I'm in the UK) for anything. Why should I not have 2 darned weeks with a friend to try and help me. I doubt it will help me a huge amount, but it may give me two weeks of feeling lsightly better out of 10 years.
Actually, I see you're just pathetically jealous.
> > > >NikkT2 > *g* I personally luuuurve diazapam.. its one of the few meds that have ever helped me ... but I won't take them due to their addiction level,
> >
> > Oh the sacrifices we make. Gee, isn't it nice that NikkT2 has the option/choice of getting Valium, which she dearly loves, but suffers to not partake. Her forbidden fruit.
> > And how nice to be able to fly off to Thailand for a little backpacking. Must do your depression/anxiety good. It's a totally different ball game when you have the power of
> > choice (and money don't hurt either).
> > I use to do allot a backpacking (CA,OR) till a black bear wrenched my brand new big Kelty from between two trees (30' up mind
> > you) and ripped it to shreds. Ate all the food, packaging and all! Don't you know, some people just have all the luck ;o) I apologize in advance Dr. Bob.
>
> I'm sorry you haven't had more luck, but sarcasm isn't civil. If you think you should apologize for something, better just not to post it in the first place. I've already warned you, so now I'm going to try to block you from posting. Best wishes,
>
> Bob
>
> PS: As before, follow-ups regarding civility or being blocked, if not redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, may be deleted.
Posted by Elizabeth on May 29, 2001, at 12:23:32
In reply to Re: blocked from posting - DianeD, posted by NikkiT2 on May 29, 2001, at 11:32:16
> You know nothing about my circumstances or how damned hard I have worked just for 2 weeks in Thailand seeing a very very close friend.
Nikki --
I know this is a heated subject, and Diane was way out of line (and was blocked for it, as you probably noticed). I really don't think she really believes that you *shouldn't* get to go to Thailand. I think she felt angry and defensive; anger often makes people say things that they don't really mean.
> I work hard to earn money, and have never asked the state (I'm in the UK) for anything. Why should I not have 2 darned weeks with a friend to try and help me. I doubt it will help me a huge amount, but it may give me two weeks of feeling lsightly better out of 10 years.
I'm sincerely happy for you that you'll be able to go on what sounds like it will be a fun and relaxing vacation. My suggestion is that you not worry about whether this vacation will be "therapeutic," but just try to enjoy yourself to the extent that you are able.
But I hope that you didn't mean this as a general put down directed at people who get assistance from the government. Mental illness has different effects on different people, depending on the severity and time course of the illness, whether and how thoroughly the illness is treated, the specific type of impairment that the person suffers as a result of the illness, whether the person has good social supports, etc. Some people don't have family to help them when they need a break and are too disabled to work; some have young children they need to provide for, and can't take the time off to go on a vacation even if they are able to work. I believe you when you say that you worked hard to be able to take this vacation. I just hope that you don't look down on people who aren't able to work to save up enough money to do special things like that.
I sincerely mean everything I've said here -- please don't take any of it as sarcasm. I wish you a pleasant vacation and hope that you return feeling a little bit better than you have been.
peace,
-elizabeth
Posted by Willow on May 29, 2001, at 14:44:02
In reply to Re: blocked from posting - DianeD, posted by NikkiT2 on May 29, 2001, at 11:32:16
to vent, let off steam, etc.
I haven't followed the thread, but would be concerned if a med that gave me relief had addictive qualities. I'm planning on discussing codeine with my doctor since it allows me to get a refreshing sleep and as a result a normal day.
Go ahead enjoy your vacation. I think we need to take them more often. They don't need to be to a exotic location, perhaps just another city or camping by the lakeside for a couple of nights. It helps to unwind and gives us something to look forward to. No matter what the financial cost, as long as it doesn't affect our ability to eat and keep a roof over our heads, I think they are well worth their weight in gold. Especially the warm memories that'll help tide us over the hard times.
Bon voyage!
Willowps I wish you could send me a postcard of their closest tree that resembles a willow or elm or oak, etc. There's nothing like having a good steady tree for company, especially when people get too emotional! : )
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 29, 2001, at 15:26:12
In reply to can't we all be friends? » NikkiT2, posted by Elizabeth on May 29, 2001, at 12:23:32
It was in no way an attack on people who claim benefit, but the way she used her words made it osund like I had the option to fly off on holiday when ever I feel like it, which is very very untrue... I actually travel less than any of my friends on benefits... I am only *just* managing to hold my job down right now, and to be critisized for my one break, my one thing that has been keeping me alive recently felt very very unfair.
I am, as a rule, happy to be friends with anyone, but I also refuse to be treated as I did, just for mentioning I was having a holiday.. I meant it in a way that when you know something helps, yet it is not a good thing, I still try to stay away from it.. it was a comment that I know I can get something that can help me, but I know it will not be good for me long term.
She could ahve commented on my commentsd, but no, she chose to attack ME, and I refuse to sit back any longer and allow people to do that.
nikki
> > You know nothing about my circumstances or how damned hard I have worked just for 2 weeks in Thailand seeing a very very close friend.
>
> Nikki --
>
> I know this is a heated subject, and Diane was way out of line (and was blocked for it, as you probably noticed). I really don't think she really believes that you *shouldn't* get to go to Thailand. I think she felt angry and defensive; anger often makes people say things that they don't really mean.
>
> > I work hard to earn money, and have never asked the state (I'm in the UK) for anything. Why should I not have 2 darned weeks with a friend to try and help me. I doubt it will help me a huge amount, but it may give me two weeks of feeling lsightly better out of 10 years.
>
> I'm sincerely happy for you that you'll be able to go on what sounds like it will be a fun and relaxing vacation. My suggestion is that you not worry about whether this vacation will be "therapeutic," but just try to enjoy yourself to the extent that you are able.
>
> But I hope that you didn't mean this as a general put down directed at people who get assistance from the government. Mental illness has different effects on different people, depending on the severity and time course of the illness, whether and how thoroughly the illness is treated, the specific type of impairment that the person suffers as a result of the illness, whether the person has good social supports, etc. Some people don't have family to help them when they need a break and are too disabled to work; some have young children they need to provide for, and can't take the time off to go on a vacation even if they are able to work. I believe you when you say that you worked hard to be able to take this vacation. I just hope that you don't look down on people who aren't able to work to save up enough money to do special things like that.
>
> I sincerely mean everything I've said here -- please don't take any of it as sarcasm. I wish you a pleasant vacation and hope that you return feeling a little bit better than you have been.
>
> peace,
> -elizabeth
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 29, 2001, at 15:30:26
In reply to Sometimes it just feels good ..., posted by Willow on May 29, 2001, at 14:44:02
Thanks fro understanding!! :o)
Its bascially a very cheap back packing holiday... we've paid off the flights and the outlay after that will be minimal... but will be total escape!!! We're going with some friends which will be good, as they can lkeep my husband occupied if I just wanna veg and get some UV into my system on the beach!! (No hotel or pool, just a wooden bungalow on a beach... think "The Beach"!!)
I would be more than happy to send you a postcard of the best tree I can find!!! I gues most will be Palm trees or what ever, but I bet I find my favourite one to sit under each day! Trees are indeed wonderful things... Oh to this time in 3 weeks!!! ;)
Nikki x
ps - I've left my email addy if you want to mail me your address for a postcard!
> to vent, let off steam, etc.
>
> I haven't followed the thread, but would be concerned if a med that gave me relief had addictive qualities. I'm planning on discussing codeine with my doctor since it allows me to get a refreshing sleep and as a result a normal day.
>
> Go ahead enjoy your vacation. I think we need to take them more often. They don't need to be to a exotic location, perhaps just another city or camping by the lakeside for a couple of nights. It helps to unwind and gives us something to look forward to. No matter what the financial cost, as long as it doesn't affect our ability to eat and keep a roof over our heads, I think they are well worth their weight in gold. Especially the warm memories that'll help tide us over the hard times.
>
> Bon voyage!
> Willow
>
> ps I wish you could send me a postcard of their closest tree that resembles a willow or elm or oak, etc. There's nothing like having a good steady tree for company, especially when people get too emotional! : )
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 29, 2001, at 21:22:45
In reply to Re: blocked from posting - DianeD, posted by NikkiT2 on May 29, 2001, at 11:32:16
> OK, I'm gonna get blocked - but you pathetic, spiteful cow. You know nothing about my circumstances or how damned hard I have worked just for 2 weeks in Thailand seeing a very very close friend.
I can't blame you for being outraged, but two wrongs don't make a right. Yes, I'm gonna have to block you.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups, if any, regarding civility or being blocked, if not redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, may be deleted.
Posted by Elizabeth on May 29, 2001, at 22:10:49
In reply to Re: can't we all be friends? » Elizabeth, posted by NikkiT2 on May 29, 2001, at 15:26:12
> It was in no way an attack on people who claim benefit, but the way she used her words made it osund like I had the option to fly off on holiday when ever I feel like it, which is very very untrue...
OK. Just checking. :) My impression was that you and Diane were discussing a very charged issue, and things got out of hand, leading to an exchange of harsh words. That's understandable -- it happens to everybody on occasion.
Have a good trip!
-elizabeth
Posted by John Smith on June 15, 2001, at 1:21:48
In reply to Re: Methadone - SalArmy4me - Mexico? » DianeD, posted by SalArmy4me on May 1, 2001, at 14:07:54
Hi,
I visited Tijuana to purchase Methadone. US guidelines say I can purchase 50 doses of a medication if it is for personal use, in the original container, and declared at US Border on return. A Mexican script may be necessary in Mexico.
I went to about 30 farmacias but couldn't get any. I was told that it wasn't made in Mexico so not available. I probably should have visited a Doc to get a script first, then to a "specialized" farmacia.
Can anyone give me the name of a doc and/or farmacia they know will cooperate??
Thanks. John
Posted by Annie on June 15, 2001, at 17:11:51
In reply to Re: Methadone - SalArmy4me - Mexico?, posted by John Smith on June 15, 2001, at 1:21:48
I am also interested in getting methadone in Mexico....please help! Thanks.
Annie
> Hi,
>
> I visited Tijuana to purchase Methadone. US guidelines say I can purchase 50 doses of a medication if it is for personal use, in the original container, and declared at US Border on return. A Mexican script may be necessary in Mexico.
> I went to about 30 farmacias but couldn't get any. I was told that it wasn't made in Mexico so not available. I probably should have visited a Doc to get a script first, then to a "specialized" farmacia.
> Can anyone give me the name of a doc and/or farmacia they know will cooperate??
> Thanks. John
Posted by SalArmy4me on June 16, 2001, at 0:18:18
In reply to Re: Methadone - SalArmy4me - Mexico?, posted by Annie on June 15, 2001, at 17:11:51
I just realized methadone is a highly controlled substance. Sorry, I don't know how to get controlled substances in Mexico.
Posted by Cam W. on June 16, 2001, at 0:24:20
In reply to Re: Methadone - SalArmy4me - Mexico?, posted by John Smith on June 15, 2001, at 1:21:48
John - The way the federales act towards opiates, I think it would be easier to buy black tar heroin than get a prescription for methadone in Mexico. Getting a substance as controlled as methadone back into the States would be next to impossible, if one was honest. Why not enter a drug rehab program in the States and get methadone that way?
Posted by John Smith on June 16, 2001, at 12:28:03
In reply to Re: Methadone - Mexico? » John Smith, posted by Cam W. on June 16, 2001, at 0:24:20
Hi Cam,
First, I don't use any drugs. My friend does, and is addicted to heroin. Treatment programs cost approx $55/week, but difficulty of getting to clinic each day. Continuing to buy "black" is not the option - getting on the right track is.
US Border agents/DEA have a policy of allowing entrance of controlled substances under the following cicrumstances: for personal use, up to max of 50 doses, in original container, and declared for personal use. Look up www.house.gov/commerce_democrats/press/107ltr24.htm. I am assuming that a mexican script is necessary. So....still looking for legit methadone in TJ.....John
Posted by John Smith on June 16, 2001, at 23:17:59
In reply to Re: Methadone - SalArmy4me - Mexico?, posted by Annie on June 15, 2001, at 17:11:51
Hi,
Methadone is a controlled "B" drug in Mexico, equivalent to a class 2 drug in the US. Most of the drugs I see mentioned on posts here are also Class 2, class B drugs, most of which are available in farmacias in Tijuana, including such as hydrocodon, percodin, kolonopin,codeine, etc., etc.,and most other opiates, sometimes with a script and sometimes without a mexican docs script.
Methadone is not manufactured in Mexico, so one of the reasons why it is not readily available for purchase.As I mentioned else on posts, DEA rules allow the import of a medication up to 50 doses, if it is for personal use, unopened, and declared while entering back into the US. Elsewhere, I quoted the DEA guideline letter setting up such, and I listened most recently to Washington DC hearings by the Department of Commerce also reiterating such a policy.
Sorry...I thought you told someone you knew where to purchase such a medication???? There are over 1,000 farmacias in TJ, each vying for US tourist business. The tourists are there for medications they can't afford in the US. I assure you there are not overrunning TJ to buy cheap pottery, which is available just as cheaply in Los Angeles.
John
John
>
> Annie
>
>
>
> > Hi,
>
> >
> > I visited Tijuana to purchase Methadone. US guidelines say I can purchase 50 doses of a medication if it is for personal use, in the original container, and declared at US Border on return. A Mexican script may be necessary in Mexico.
> > I went to about 30 farmacias but couldn't get any. I was told that it wasn't made in Mexico so not available. I probably should have visited a Doc to get a script first, then to a "specialized" farmacia.
> > Can anyone give me the name of a doc and/or farmacia they know will cooperate??
> > Thanks. John
Posted by karen harris on June 19, 2001, at 21:35:54
In reply to Buprenorphine, My experience , posted by DianeD on April 22, 2001, at 15:12:49
Last week I ordered 20 tablets of buprenorphine from a pharmacy in tijuana. I was very disturbed when I called the US post office only to find out that my money order had been seized by the postmaster general, and the DEA. My friend had given me the address, which she got on the internet. The pharmacy no longer answers the phone. The comforting news is the postmaster informed me that of the $8250.00 they seized from 38 differrent people, that are refraing from charging any of us at this time. Is there any legal way to obtain it without going to Mexico? I was informed my money order is now the property of the US gov. SCARY!! I had 18 mo. of recovery off vicodin and unfortunately relapsed in early May. A wonderful addiction specialist detoxed me with liquid buprenex. Sadly the DEA threatened his license if he contines to use it to treat addiction. What is even more frustrating is the FDA will tell you nothing about when it will be approved in under the tongue tablet form. I again slipped 10 days ago and found buprenorphine useful. I would like to know when it will be available. I have heard horrific stories about methadone and would love to avoid it at all costs. I guess its just the typical bureacracy and red tape of the FDA. I know that of recent, there is clinic in Florida And Pittsburgh utilizing this drug. The going $ in Mexico I've heard is $60 for 10 tablets. The DEA shut down the mexican pharmacy website as well. Things are looking grim. I had no idea it was illegal. My grandma has been ordering heart meds for years! If anyone knows anything more, please remit. Ciao
Posted by Pacha on June 22, 2001, at 8:58:35
In reply to is buprenorphine legal , posted by karen harris on June 19, 2001, at 21:35:54
Hi,very sorry to hear your story.
Me and a load of other people have ordered bupe from www.healthcarepharma.com recieved my order in 4 days (no joke). 100 tabs cost me $76 including shipping.
good luck
Posted by eoflaherty on June 24, 2001, at 16:06:10
In reply to Re: Methadone - SalArmy4me - Mexico?, posted by John Smith on June 15, 2001, at 1:21:48
I find that many psychiatric conditions respond to omega-3 fish oil and recently I tried it on three patients on methadone.Each of them reduced their methadone consumption by 10-20% without any difficulty.This was on a small dose of 1-2g of omega-3.Larger doses of up to 10g daily have been used in other psychiatric conditions and could be tried here.The FDA has determined that 3g daily is safe,except for those with blood disorders.Omega-3 fish oil is available without prescription.You may also find that you smoke and drink less while on it.The dose mentioned here is the sum of the EPA and DHA in the capsules which are typically 1000mg in size and are usually around 30% of EPA and DHA in total.The use of benzodiazepines is likely to drop too while on it.
Note that our ancestors lived in the sea and our modern diet seems to be low in fish oil which would normally make up 20% of the human brain.
Posted by Zo on June 24, 2001, at 16:10:59
In reply to Re: Methadone - AndrewB and all interested » Cece, posted by shelliR on May 9, 2001, at 20:49:23
I have allowed myself some days to split one pill (7.5mg) throughout the day. Some might say my "habit" is increasing. I think I am learning to be a bit nicer to myself.
Shelli,Beautiful. Just beautiful.
Zo
Posted by Elizabeth on June 25, 2001, at 5:36:20
In reply to is buprenorphine legal , posted by karen harris on June 19, 2001, at 21:35:54
Buprenorphine is a legal drug in the United States. It is categorised as a Schedule V controlled substance, meaning that it is considered to have very little abuse potential. However, there is a chance that if you mail-order drugs from other countries, especially controlled substances, they will be seized by Customs. With a little red tape, you can get them legally in this way, but you need to go through the appropriate annoying bureaucratic channels. If you didn't go through channels, and your order got seized, you're pretty much out of luck. (On the bright side, you're unlikely to be prosecuted for anything as a result.)
Sublingual buprenorphine (Temgesic, Subutex) has a poor reputation. People who take it via the sublingual/buccal route need to take huge doses, though, and even then they report that it's not very reliable. I take buprenorphine in the solution form which *is* available by prescription in the USA and is intended for IM or IV injection. I use it intranasally, the dose required through this route being comparable to those used when the drug is injected, although it may take longer to work. I think that the pharmaceutical industry should be working on designing a metred-dose nasal spray (like Stadol NS) rather than trying to get the SL tablets approved.
> A wonderful addiction specialist detoxed me with liquid buprenex. Sadly the DEA threatened his license if he contines to use it to treat addiction.
At this time, it's illegal for doctors in the US to use opioids (even partial agonists such as buprenorphine, which has little if any abuse potential) to treat opioid addiction, except in special clinics. Most people in these programs use methadone (LAAM is also sometimes used), though buprenorphine is available, at least in some places (more in Europe).
It is perfectly legal to prescribe opioids for pain or for other conditions (such as mood disorders). I pick mine up at a local pharmacy each month, just as my mother does with her hydrocodone/APAP prescription (for osteoporosis). Because it is only Schedule V (and not Schedule II like morphine or fentanyl or oxycodone), I can get 5 refills on each prescription.
Something you might consider would be getting into a MMT program and then, whenever it starts becoming available, switching to buprenorphine (just as you used it to detox from heroin, only you could then use it for maintenance therapy). Buprenorphine has a good reputation for blocking withdrawal symptoms and cravings for full-agonist opioids. The disadvantage here is that you'd have to rely on the eventual availability of buprenorphine for this use (which is not by any means certain).
A better plan might be to get a prescription for it as an antidepressant, as I do. This would be feasible, if you can stay off opioids long enough that you'd be considered to be in remission from your addiction. A number of people who take prescribed opioids for mood disorders have histories of self-medicating, but it's not considered maintenance treatment because the disorder being treated is a primary mood disorder and any substance dependence is considered to be in full remission. It is well known that some people turn to non-prescribed drugs in an effort to feel "normal" -- for these people, medically supervised treatment with related drugs is often very effective.
> I had no idea it was illegal. My grandma has been ordering heart meds for years!
Heart meds aren't controlled substances. The people with a vested interest in the drug-war industry feel that they have bigger fish to fry.
Something that really gets to me about the anti-drug politicians' invasion of our doctors' offices (besides my feeling that the doctor-patient relationship is sacred) is that laws that limit prescription of controlled substances don't keep addicts from getting their (street) drugs at all -- they just make it more difficult for those of us who need them for pain, depression, etc., as if we don't have to endure enough suffering in our lives already.
-elizabeth
Posted by Peter S on June 29, 2001, at 10:33:39
In reply to Re: is buprenorphine legal » karen harris, posted by Elizabeth on June 25, 2001, at 5:36:20
Hi Elizabeth,
Any ideas about finding an MD willing to prescribe Buprenorphine for depression? As I mentioned in another post, my pdoc is not willing to try it out. Enoch Callaway, who wrote the article about BU, lives in the SF bay area where I live. Apparently he's no longer at UCSF and I'm trying to track him down. Any other ideas?
Thanks!
Peter
> Buprenorphine is a legal drug in the United States. It is categorised as a Schedule V controlled substance, meaning that it is considered to have very little abuse potential. However, there is a chance that if you mail-order drugs from other countries, especially controlled substances, they will be seized by Customs. With a little red tape, you can get them legally in this way, but you need to go through the appropriate annoying bureaucratic channels. If you didn't go through channels, and your order got seized, you're pretty much out of luck. (On the bright side, you're unlikely to be prosecuted for anything as a result.)
>
> Sublingual buprenorphine (Temgesic, Subutex) has a poor reputation. People who take it via the sublingual/buccal route need to take huge doses, though, and even then they report that it's not very reliable. I take buprenorphine in the solution form which *is* available by prescription in the USA and is intended for IM or IV injection. I use it intranasally, the dose required through this route being comparable to those used when the drug is injected, although it may take longer to work. I think that the pharmaceutical industry should be working on designing a metred-dose nasal spray (like Stadol NS) rather than trying to get the SL tablets approved.
>
> > A wonderful addiction specialist detoxed me with liquid buprenex. Sadly the DEA threatened his license if he contines to use it to treat addiction.
>
> At this time, it's illegal for doctors in the US to use opioids (even partial agonists such as buprenorphine, which has little if any abuse potential) to treat opioid addiction, except in special clinics. Most people in these programs use methadone (LAAM is also sometimes used), though buprenorphine is available, at least in some places (more in Europe).
>
> It is perfectly legal to prescribe opioids for pain or for other conditions (such as mood disorders). I pick mine up at a local pharmacy each month, just as my mother does with her hydrocodone/APAP prescription (for osteoporosis). Because it is only Schedule V (and not Schedule II like morphine or fentanyl or oxycodone), I can get 5 refills on each prescription.
>
> Something you might consider would be getting into a MMT program and then, whenever it starts becoming available, switching to buprenorphine (just as you used it to detox from heroin, only you could then use it for maintenance therapy). Buprenorphine has a good reputation for blocking withdrawal symptoms and cravings for full-agonist opioids. The disadvantage here is that you'd have to rely on the eventual availability of buprenorphine for this use (which is not by any means certain).
>
> A better plan might be to get a prescription for it as an antidepressant, as I do. This would be feasible, if you can stay off opioids long enough that you'd be considered to be in remission from your addiction. A number of people who take prescribed opioids for mood disorders have histories of self-medicating, but it's not considered maintenance treatment because the disorder being treated is a primary mood disorder and any substance dependence is considered to be in full remission. It is well known that some people turn to non-prescribed drugs in an effort to feel "normal" -- for these people, medically supervised treatment with related drugs is often very effective.
>
> > I had no idea it was illegal. My grandma has been ordering heart meds for years!
>
> Heart meds aren't controlled substances. The people with a vested interest in the drug-war industry feel that they have bigger fish to fry.
>
> Something that really gets to me about the anti-drug politicians' invasion of our doctors' offices (besides my feeling that the doctor-patient relationship is sacred) is that laws that limit prescription of controlled substances don't keep addicts from getting their (street) drugs at all -- they just make it more difficult for those of us who need them for pain, depression, etc., as if we don't have to endure enough suffering in our lives already.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on June 30, 2001, at 17:57:52
In reply to Elizabeth: Buprenorphine sources?, posted by Peter S on June 29, 2001, at 10:33:39
> Any ideas about finding an MD willing to prescribe Buprenorphine for depression?
Nope. Academic/research-oriented doctors are more likely to be open to it, though (the times I've needed to see a new pdoc, I've given them a copy of the Bodkin et al. paper and showed them that I already have a prescription). I'm sympathetic to your problem -- I just don't know of any sure way. You just have to be convincing, I guess; find someone who's at least open to the possibility, and show them that you can be trusted to use it properly. The trick is to make sure you don't come off looking like a "drug seeker" -- although you really can't get high on buprenorphine from what I've been told (by rec drug users as well as by doctors!), not every doctor is going to be comfortable with it (especially since you need syringes, for which they may have to write a separate prescription (I don't know the law in CA), in order to administer it -- insulin syringes should do).
Hmm...come to think of it, here's one approach: if you can track down Dr. Calloway or some other research type who's liable to be sympathetic, you could talk to them about it and they could speak to your pdoc on your behalf. I don't know if this would work, it's just a thought.
Good luck to you.
-elizabeth
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